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YaReally Archive

The Myth Of Effortful Game

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via Heartiste

on July 28, 2013 at 2:18 am
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The most effortless type of game relies on preselection which is heavily reliant on being (or at least being perceived as being) “higher value” or of enough value to the female and having the “Game-Fu” knowledge and experience to deal with the female’s inevitable “Chick Jitsu”.
Then all you really need to do is not fuck it up.

Dealing With Cutesy Chicks

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via Heartiste

Zombie Shane
on July 24, 2013 at 2:28 pm
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Honestly, I don’t know that these “mindgame” chicks are worth the effort.

[CH: There really isn't any effort expended once you get the hang of it. It's pretty much all upside to watch a girl's face brighten with newfound desire because you successfully pulled her limbic strings.]

Unless maybe you’ve gone full-blown nihilist and you’re determined to tap EVERY SINGLE god-damned piece of ass which crosses your path – bar none.

[Or maybe you just want to get better when you talk to girls, even if the total number of girls is low.]

But, again, in all honestly, I can think of a bazillion things I’d rather do than waste any calories pursuing a “mindgame” chick.

[Marathoners waste calories, but they still run, because they do it for the fun of it.]

Life is just too damned short.

[ blow prospects because of bad game.]

  • Lily
    on July 24, 2013 at 2:58 pm
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    “Honestly, I don’t know that these “mindgame” chicks are worth the effort.”

    Those chicks are the most fun, and they’re good at flirting. If a girl is flirting with you, it means there is an open door or window for you. If you don’t like mid games you’re a bore, or probably don’t have good game. More confident men play along and end up getting what they want.

    “But, again, in all honestly, I can think of a bazillion things I’d rather do than waste any calories pursuing a “mindgame” chick.”

    You sound old and tired. You need to revamp. Must be that Frankenstein school wearing you out :D

    Anyway, this “babe” and “honey” stuff aren’t examples of mindgaming. A woman says it to a man she isn’t really interested in and feels comfortable around like a buddy (he’s not giving her gina and psyche tingles).

    Thus, I think reason 2 is right: She loves to flirt and she has a way about her. Yes, a way of interacting with men even if she isn’t attracted to them. However, she has no intentions of letting that guy pursue her seriously. So, don’t read too much into the “babe” and “honey” lingo, unless she sends other unmistakable signals.

    • YaReally
      on July 24, 2013 at 9:44 pm
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      “If you don’t like mid games you’re a bore, or probably don’t have good game. More confident men play along and end up getting what they want.”

      This. These are usually the hottest and flirtiest girls. Ya, they play games, but:

      “[CH: There really isn't any effort expended once you get the hang of it. It's pretty much all upside to watch a girl's face brighten with newfound desire because you successfully pulled her limbic strings.]”

      This. These chicks steamrolled over me and frustrated me when I started out. Now I’m always 10 flirty steps ahead of them and they’re mind-blown by that because it’s rare to run into, especially from (by society’s standards) an average guy. You can learn to handle this stuff and then like CH says, it’s no effort expended.

      But ya, the “babe” and “honey” stuff is usually a signal that she’s good at push/pull and she knows how to string guys along, has a ton of orbiters, etc. She’ll make you think you have a chance, then flake, then sweet talk you, then do it all over again.

      The catch is that, like I say, they’re usually the hottest ones. Also, oddly enough, despite the flirty impression they give off I’ve found that they tend not to sleep with a ton of guys. Usually they have a regular (an ex or whatever, usually who treated them like shit and doesn’t orbit them) but most guys they meet get wrapped around their little finger so they lose attraction for them (those guys are failing their shit-test basically by eagerly jumping at the “honey” stuff) and won’t bang them (Hypergamy won’t let them) and just put them in the Orbiter category and use them for free shit and rides and dates and vacations and shit.

      I have one right now that I’m experimenting creating massive drama with. Really hardcore push/pull, starting full out “no fuck YOU” fights, pretending to be pissed off, going from massive attention to flat-out ignoring her, etc. It seems to be making progress, but I know going in that this’ll be a long slow game to get her to actually meet up and bang so I’m not investing much energy into it. Figure it could be a solid month to go still. But it’ll happen eventually, because I’m awesome. lol

      • Zombie Shane
        on July 24, 2013 at 11:04 pm
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        > “I have one right now that I’m experimenting creating massive drama with. Really hardcore push/pull, starting full out “no fuck YOU” fights, pretending to be pissed off, going from massive attention to flat-out ignoring her, etc.”

        Like I said above, I don’t give a damn if the bitch is a Jayne Mansfield or a Raquel Welch or a Monica Belluci in their primes – I got better things to do with my life than play games.

        Either show me the damned pussy, or get the hell outta my way so that I can find me a chick who will.

        • YaReally
          on July 25, 2013 at 1:40 am
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          Sure, that’s a method of approaching it. But it means you’re going to end up with a lot of average chicks. Which is fine…not everyone wants to climb Mount Everest. As long as you’re happy, you do your thing.

          But you’re not sticking your dick in this:

          …without playing a few games. And when you’re confident, socially savvy, and flirty, that’s all it is: a silly little game. Nothing to stress over or get all “I don’t care what that bitch looks like, don’t waste my life show me the damned pussy grrrrrr!!!!!!!” about lol

          Incidentally that girl and I now have a Day 2 lined up for next week. The games are too much for me for anything long-term, but I’ll probably make her a fuckbuddy.

          • Scray
            on July 25, 2013 at 12:32 pm
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            Girls like that who are paid to string along guys and sell products are somehow easier to game? These are the ‘drunk bar sluts?’ In other news, up has now become down.

Marky Mark
on July 24, 2013 at 9:14 pm
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Wouldn’t you say that once a girl starts the mindgames she already considers you inferior? Or do girls also play mindgames with betas?

  • Scray
    on July 25, 2013 at 3:20 am
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    Best to think of it as a shit test. A shit test that the woman is always and forever deploying on every man who crosses her path.

    • YaReally
      on July 25, 2013 at 5:12 am
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      Basically the hotter she is, the more she needs to know that she can’t control you and that you are congruent to not giving a fuck about her silly tests. Because she can break 99.9% of the men in the world, if she’s hot enough…she can wrap them around her little finger. And if a silly little GIRL can wrap these guys around her finger, how the fuck are they supposed to handle the world for the two of them if he can’t even stand up to a girl?

      So when she meets the one guy she CAN’T control, that tells her this is a guy who can take on the world. But anyone can fake it once or twice…she needs to keep testing him to make sure that he’s that man.

      So in a way, whether her calling you “honey” means she’s into you or friend-zoned you, is irrelevant. It’s all a green light.

      The biggest mistake men make is thinking that their value remains where it was when they met the girl. Like they passed a few tests and now they’re “done”…but your value will fluctuate for the rest of your life. And if it gets low enough, her Hypergamy and opportunity will ensure she cheats on you.

      So build a strong foundation and don’t slack off. Don’t become the beer-belly couch potato “yes, dear… :( ” beta loser failing her tests will turn you into. Grow more solid as a man every day, and look at these tests as an opportunity to grow a stronger frame. Down the road if you meet a girl who doesn’t test as much, you will be that much more solid to her. You are the oak tree, she’s the little squirrel scurrying about.

Study: Dominance, Not Looks, Predicts Men’s Mating Success

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via Heartiste

on July 22, 2013 at 6:58 pm
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Golly gee, I seem to remember someone mentioning this at some point. Oh ya, this guy here, about a million times lol:

It’s cute that science is finally catching up to what us PUAs have been telling everyone for years. Like I’ve said before, PUA is not based on “theories” or “ideas” or mental masturbation…it’s based on cold hard mass Field Experience followed by analyzing and cross-referencing that experience.

If looks or money were relevant, we would be the FIRST ones telling guys to go get a 6-pack and a 6-figure salary. It just doesn’t line up with reality. It’s brainwashed mass social conditioning at play.

Go out. See it all for yourself. The second you tell me looks matter is the second you give away how little Field Experience you have.

“Readers can issue a correction if this interpretation is wrong, but what this study result shows is that dominant men with good looks actually had LOWER mating success than dominant men with rougher looks.”

No surprise. Who’s more of a boss: a normal healthy adult male climbing Mount Everest or a guy with one arm and one leg? They both accomplished the same feat but one overcame a fuckton more challenges to do it…the guy missing limbs comes off as much more of a badass than the guy who we expected to be able to do it.

A short or fat or ugly guy being dominant and assuming attraction and being socially proofed by other women etc. is a mind-fuck to girls because its something they never run into and for that guy to exist means that he must be a badass to overcome his socially conditioned limitations and EXPECT to get hot chicks.

We all expect Brad Pitt I have girls on his arm…and if he DOESN’T, he looks even lamer. He has to be EXTRA dominant because girls just assume he should be naturally dominant. This is why girls get pissed/frustrated when they go up to a tall good-looking guy only to find out he’s a big sloppy vagina. They thought his externals meant his internals would be solid but 99% of the time they don’t (despite the myths, again go out in the Field) so it’s extra frustrating to them to be “duped” like that.

As I’ve said before, I routinely game in venues where the guys are all taller, buff/ripped, richer, driving fancy cars, etc and the girls are all legit 7+ (they don’t let ugly people in (“dress code” and all lol) so girls know to bring their hot friends). If I’m talking to a girl, other guys don’t exist unless my game is off and I drop the ball. And most of those guys are too chickenshit to approach, don’t know how to escalate when they DO approach, and end the night by either going home alone, hiring a hooker, or getting into fights lol

  • Scray
    on July 22, 2013 at 7:20 pm
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    I was going to ask something along these lines. Like, I’ve noticed that this 7 really likes me. And she’s sure to dote and lovingly talk about every quirk. I wonder if playing against expectation actually reaps you larger rewards, in terms of long-term affection. It’s just a lot of ‘I’ve never done/thought/felt this before…’ So, if anything, getting into game with a handicap…if you can overcome the handicap…could be such a huge ROI.

    I’d analyze it closer by asking her questions about it but ehhhh most of my energy goes into not fucking up with her. (Srs, like I have to stop myself from just….looking at her….and shit lol)

    • YaReally
      on July 22, 2013 at 7:40 pm
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      You’re on the right track. That’s why I said way back that your height can actually be an advantage. But most guys won’t believe me when I say that till they have a doting 7 chasing them around. ;)

      Think about it from her perspective: she’s found a secret diamond in the rough that other girls missed out on. She’s found a guy who breaks all the stereotypes she’s been fed by society, what kind of boss must that guy be to spit in society’s face and not accept the role they tried to paint for him? Then on top of it she’s mind-fucked by all the things you do that open her up to a whole new world where she’s just amazed and mystified that her preconceived notions and beliefs could all have been wrong and it was just that she hadn’t met a REAL Man(TM) yet. She looks at you the way you look at her…like a magnificent piece of art you stare at in wonder. :)

      And it’ll only get better from here. You’ve got your whole life ahead of you. Like I say, in 5 years you won’t even recognize Old Scray. And you EARNED it by putting in the work.

Measures Of Fuckability

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via Heartiste

on July 18, 2013 at 3:09 pm
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Highlights from the Day 2 —

It’s a fun little bar where they have a lot of games to play (I crush her at darts and pool). She buys us a round of drinks. She does the formal apology thing. We have a lot of fun times (srs.)

Good comfort routine I think is talking about how the different primate males get female attention.

Me: See, we come from primates…so like, a lot of what we do comes from what they do. Like there’s one group who are just bigger than the females and they have harems and they use their physical dominance…they also have like, one inch dicks and sex is real quick for them. Then there’s another group that….just have huge dicks and everyone has sex with everyone else and whoever has the best sperm reproduces. Then, there’s another group that’s just perfectly monogamous forever, and they sing to one another. Then there’s this last group where, pretty much, you have to have a lot of friends. Whoever has the most friends gets the most women, and – -
Her: You’re like that one, with the friends!
Me ….whoa, whoa…I mean, think about it. I mean, physical dominance, huge dick, beautiful song, popular. I mean….
Her: Ya, no you’re the one who’s just talking to everyone and has a lot of friends
Me: I’m pretty sure I’m like the one with the physical dominance
Her: ….hahhaha noooooo….what the fuck, do you want like a harem or something?
Me: ….I’m actually just trying to prepare you for the fact that I have a one inch dick.
(she loves that, and we’re already sitting close…so then she takes my hand and shows me something — which I’m totally going to steal as another comfort routine)

Her: Give me your hand….(she grabs it anyway lol)
Me: This better be good
Her: See, hold my hand but with your index pointed outward along mine. Now, close your eyes and run your fingers over both your and my index…it’ll feel like one finger.
Me: All right. I’m trusting you.
….(does it)
Me: What the fuck are you talking about? That doesn’t feel like that at all!
Her: Really?! Nothing?
Me: What cad taught you this bullshit?!

So it’s going good. Lots of fun stuff, she counted the stars we could see in german….you know, one of those romantic souls. About to think of a way to bounce back to my place when I fuck up a little. We’re sitting in the outside area, close, but we are in a public place. I’m pretty nervous (ya even tho we’re holding hands and cuddling a bit and blah blah)….so, (stammeringly)…

Me: So….I was, uh….well you had this look in your eye….(Greaaaaaaat)
Her: hm?
Me: (must. follow. through)…..ya…I was just wondering….do you wanna kiss me?
Her: (complete shock and surprise) WHAT. NO! No. No. If I wanted to kiss you I would have done it. That’s how I am, and – -
Me: (Ugh. Ouch. I just kind of laugh at the humiliation)…okay, okay, relax, calm down. Caaaaaaalm down.
Her: Yeah, I’m the type of person who will just do it when I want to do it.
Me: (I just nod and let her spin her wheels a bit…must. plow. through)….
Her: Blah blah blah what kind of question is that blah blah blah ………..Why, did you want to kiss me?
Me: (I just give her a mild ‘duh’ look and smirk)….
Her: Well….I want to, I just….there’s a lot of people around, and…
Me: (I’m having enough trouble keeping my internals under control to think of something clever to say…I just nod and smile, and then progress to another topic..)

So I still get the bounce under the pretense of a movie. And then, we’re sitting on my couch….

Her: Yeah, this is nice. Unlike earlier when you were being LAME. So LAME. That is the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Do you want to kiss me? I have never had anyone ask me a question like that. You just need to do it or not….so amazingly awkward, I mean, oh my gawd….soooooooo nerdy, I swear (seriously…she’s just going ONNNN AND OOOOONNNNN……)

I kind of recline a bit and look over at her

Me:……do you want to kiss me now?

And that was it.

  • YaReally
    on July 18, 2013 at 4:23 pm
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    lol jeeze, gave me a heart attack. I’m in a rush today so I can’t write much but 1) congrats dude! and 2) told ya. ;)

    Quick notes:

    “We’re sitting in the outside area, close, but we are in a public place.”

    This is why you have a plan for “okay now how do we get from this public place to a more isolated place…even if that’s just the patio area, or a back corner booth, or out on a quiet street, or back to my place, or to the parking lot to move her car, etc.” Because with most girls their ASD won’t let them go too far in public, even if they really really want to.

    “Me: So….I was, uh….well you had this look in your eye….(Greaaaaaaat)
    Her: hm?
    Me: (must. follow. through)…..ya…I was just wondering….do you wanna kiss me?”

    Oh…oh Scray. lol Cringed hard reading this whole part. But on the flip side we’ve all been there, and I’m glad you got to hear right from the horse’s mouth: “So LAME. That is the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Do you want to kiss me? I have never had anyone ask me a question like that. You just need to do it or not….so amazingly awkward, I mean, oh my gawd”

    ’cause you will *NEVER* forget her saying that to you lol. She’s giving you the blueprint right there…next time you think “should I kiss her?” you’ll remember this chick and be like “goddamn, I’m going to just do it.” and go for it. So in the end it’s good.

    The MM routine of “Do you want to kiss me?” is actually solid, but it’s done from a confident playful “I would be giving you value if I let you kiss me” frame VS a nervous “am I allowed to kiss you?” value-taking frame lol.

    But that’s fine, you got through it. Ultimately while it was shaky there, you DID listen to her “there’s a lot of people around, and…” signal, and you DID change the topic instead of dwelling on it, and you DID handle her objection by then isolating you two to get her alone, and then you DID push forward again once you were alone. So that’s good stuff. Some guys would get stuck trying to logically convince her to kiss them in public. Some guys would just chalk the date up as a write-off thinking “I guess she doesn’t like me”. Some guys wouldn’t figure out how to get her to their place to be isolated.

    So the lesson here is that a lot of seduction is picking up on the girl’s signals and calibrating to them…some of them we know are a given, like that she won’t fuck you on the table in a brightly lit busy restaurant, you need to isolate her to make her ASD chill, and you generally can’t ask her to come up to your apartment to suck your dick, you need a bullshit excuse for her to tell herself so she’s not admitting she wants sex and triggering her ASD…so we can plan for a lot of those things when we design our Day 2.

    But the other half of the battle is picking up on her little signals of what she needs you to handle/disarm/avoid for her to fuck you. That chick WANTED to bang you, she just needed you to provide isolation for it and to take the responsibility off her, so she signaled those things to you and you handled them, so then she’s free to fuck you.

    This is why routine-monkeys get stuck, because they don’t calibrate to what the girl is thinking/feeling and they can’t adapt their game and just stick to the routine…pickup is an art, it’s like water, it flows and adapts as the interaction goes on. It’s not a solid brick you throw at the girl’s head lol

    Anyway, props and congrats dude. Any after-thoughts on the whole thing, looking back?

    • YaReally
      on July 18, 2013 at 4:24 pm
      Original Link

      (the near heart attack was from the whole “ummm do you umm want to kiss me?” part lol I wasn’t sure if you’d recover or get sucked into logically trying to convince her to go against her ASD)

      • Scray
        on July 18, 2013 at 5:22 pm
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        Those few seconds were so terrible lol. Like ‘thisismynightmare, thisismynightmare’ over and over and over again. I mean, most of it was just the bitch way it came out of my mouth. It was actually surreal watching and listening to her talk shit about it, because for some reason it reminded me of that Tyler Digest quote: ‘FUCKING DORK SUPER LAME.’

        ‘Any after-thoughts on the whole thing, looking back?’

        Yeah….I think this was the final nail in the coffin of a lot of the misogynistic thoughts I had when I was first taking the red pill. I mean, she got hit on by this tall, bearded guy while we were there. And so when he left, I made a joke

        ‘Geez what kind of guy talks to girls he doesn’t even know?’
        Giants with (with a german accent)Beards!

        I was rolling laughing…..So ya, I’ll probably never be like ‘o girls are stupid’ or whatever again (and mean it) because there’s just so many examples I have now — both of girls who do and don’t want to fuck me (lol mostly the latter) — of cool, smart awesome women.

        I also think there’s a lot more value to actually treating yourself like a Pavlovian dog than otherwise lol. What I mean is that, rather than ignore negative thoughts and do ‘woo-woo’ shit to ‘fight’ it, I just rather acknowledge the negative thoughts and change my externals. That works like 100% of the time. If I feel sad, I listen to happy music. Problem solved. I realized this with the ‘do you want to kiss me’ disaster of 2013. I just rode it out and tried to change my externals. It’s a common theme with me, it’s how I can maintain my attitude. I never realized it before.

        So ya, I think that could be a helpful tip for anyone who gets discouraged or whatever. It makes sense — externals happen, your internals follow. So change externals, internals follow again.

        Last, I realized that I just want more. Mooooooar. If I can do this, what else can I do? So…..ya. That’s it.

        ‘This is why routine-monkeys get stuck, because they don’t calibrate to what the girl is thinking/feeling and they can’t adapt their game and just stick to the routine’

        Totally agree. I mean, ya, we deal in general concepts here but they manifest in different ways for different girls. The art part is pretty difficult.

        Welp, I’m getting out there again tonight. Going after only the difficult ones from now on. lol….

on July 18, 2013 at 4:03 pm
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7 hours.

Back in the early PUA days, we didn’t really look at it as number of dates. We looked at it as about 7 hours of spending time together to get the lay (for a solid attraction-based lay VS a fast fool’s mate lay…basically, her attracted enough to want to keep seeing you, but not overboard to where you’re in a dating frame).

Like the mindset was completely different…we called it “Speed Seduction”, but that wasn’t just a gimmicky name, it was because we were looking for the most efficient route to the lay.

So the IDEAL was cold approach a girl, and spend enough time with her to get the lay right then and there…so approach a chick at a bar around 8 or 9 and go through venue changes, partying, hang with her friends, drink, dance, build comfort/rapport, isolate, escalate, venue change for food, back to her place or yours, handle whatever friend-related obstacles are left, disarm some LMR, and have sex by 3 or 4am.

Or cold approach a girl in the day, say running daygame around 2pm and go on an insta-date, venue change, build comfort/rapport, grab food, go for a walk, grab a drink somewhere as evening rolls in, escalate, venue change, back to her place or yours, disarm some LMR, and have sex by 9pm or just in general that night for sure.

Now getting a phone number was actually a “failure” in that it was a last resort…if you HAD to, you’d get a number, because for whatever reason the logistics weren’t going to work to stick with her and bang her in the initial interaction (ie – you meet her on her lunch break and she has to go back to work, or you meet her at the bar but her friend is puking and she has to take her home, etc.). This is why we didn’t just collect phone numbers, we Time Bridged (ala Mystery Method), where the purpose of getting a number was to solidify plans to DO something. It wasn’t “give me your #, we should hang out sometime”, it was “give me your # and we’ll go see that thing we talked about on Tuesday.”

So ending up on a “Day 2″ was simply a consequence of not being able to seal the deal on the initial meet…it wasn’t a GOAL to go on a Day 2.

On top of that, the 7 hour rule doesn’t care how you divide it up. You can stretch the first interaction out for 7 hours and get the lay, or you could go on 7 one hour dates…but because it was SPEED Seduction we were going for the most efficient route, which is as few dates as possible, ideally none.

So most of the time it would look something like 2-4 hours together in the initial interaction, then a Day 2 that lasts a few hours and boom, that’s the 7 hours down and if your game was tight, she should be ready to bang by then.

It would be rare for it to take till a Day 3, and we would basically say “dude, your game needs serious work” if a guy was ending up on Day 4s and 5s. Like we could use this as a guage of “it takes me a solid 2 dates to get a lay every time” sticking points where we could say “post some Field Reports and we’ll figure out how to tighten your shit up ’cause it shouldn’t be taking that long”.

We can bang faster than 7 hours now, as RSD has shown, but I still feel like 7 hours is a good guide for a really solid pickup. Like I can go run a numbers game and find something to stick my dick in in under an hour who won’t remember my name the next morning, and that can even turn into a fuckbuddy/relationship situ now and then. But for the type of game we were running back in the day, the “art” part of “pickup artist”, where the girl felt like she had met her soulmate and like you knew her the way no one else in her life ever knew or understood her, and she would chase you and beg to hang out again etc. etc….7 hours is solid.

If you’re taking 3 dates to get the lay, you could be more efficient/tighter/creative. If you have tight game you SHOULD be having sex on your Day 2 or initial meet. If your Day 2 ends without sex, it means that you dropped the ball somewhere and your game could be tightened up.

That’s why I was encouraging Scray yesterday to have sex with his chick he had a date set up with. All the signs were there that she was into it, so if he hadn’t gotten the lay, I’d have said “okay, that’s not an outcome that should have happened…let’s look at where you dropped the ball. What were logistics like? What was your plan for getting back to your place? Did you miss signals she gave you? etc.” and helped him narrow down where he could’ve been more efficient.

It doesn’t matter if she’s hot. She could be smokin gorgeous and trying to play hard to get, but if her favorite rich handsome tall famous celebrity stud showed up and said “I want to whisk you away for a few hours on a date, blow your emotions through the roof, and then fuck your brains out”, she would fuck him. So if you’re not able to duplicate that, then it’s just a matter of not having high enough value to her, or not having a solid enough Day 2 plan that leads back to one of your bedrooms.

So ya, 7 hours. For the life of me I legit can’t even remember the last time I went out with a girl on a Day 3 without her having put out already lol.

I think game this days has evolved, but guys have also lost the cut-throat edge that we had in the early days…it’s a lot more “just have fun and it’ll happen eventually, who cares, you have other girls” VS “take her here, do this, do that, and push for the lay that night”. On the one hand that’s a good thing, because it’s an overall healthier “don’t give a fuck” mindset to build…but on the other hand, well, you can’t argue with results. It’s like going to the gym and randomly lifting weights until you’re “tired” VS going and purposely pushing yourself one rep further than last time and tracking your measurements etc. You’ll get in shape either way, but one way is efficient/fast and the other is less so.

  • Scray
    on July 18, 2013 at 5:43 pm
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    Yeah, it was so helpful when you said yesterday to just get in the mindset of ‘just going out to shoot the shit,’ because I think it gets at this. 7 hours is a long time. I mean, we were there for like 2 hours or so before we even were sitting next to one another and kinda cuddling. And then like another hour after that before the incident. And then another hour and a half after that of full recovery lol. When we first met it was like about 30-40 minutes of talking.

    To me 7 hours is a long-assed time lol. But like, if you’re looking to actually DHV and stuff….that shit just takes awhile. All of my sets that have turned into something were longer interactions. Like, when you’re working just off your personality to DHV and shit…..that takes awhile (for me at least lol…I’m sure I can get tighter eventually).

    10-15 minutes —> social hookpoint (like, where they wouldn’t think it was weird if you went with them somewhere else in the venue or where you can lead them)
    ~40 minutes —-> solid A3

    Going back…most of my flakes are from interactions that were like 10-15 minutes long total.

    I do think that when I get tighter, maybe I’ll be able to shave off time to all of this. But, y’know…I’m just a person. I fuck up and have to recover lol. Sometimes I stumble on the opener. Sometimes my ‘imagined as awesome’ DHV routine falls flat, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    So really walking in there with a ‘I don’t expect anything, let’s just shoot the shit mindset’ may take care of a lot of this –> will try it tonight.

    • YaReally
      on July 19, 2013 at 1:25 pm
      Original Link

      I’m not a big fan of Alexander from RSD’s style/teaching but he puts it like “being at a bar is like you’re all in detention together. You’re all strangers trapped in the same room for a few hours. So be that guy in detention who makes a boring/awkward situation fun and shoots the shit and becomes the center of attention…they need that and you can provide it.”

      I like that outlook in general.

      Also compare our 7 hours to a normal guy. A normal guy spends weeks getting to know a girl in his social circle. Or maybe he flukes into a cold approach…then he goes on a dinner & movie date (4 hours) and gets a peck on the cheek and $100+ because he pays for both of them. Then a daytime date kayaking or skydiving to impress her, another 4 hours plus maybe a kiss plus $100. Then a couple more dinner dates, another 6 hours total there plus another $100. Then a DVD night to finally make the move, another 2 or 3 movies in a row as he works up the balls to do what she’s dying for him to do…so another 6 hours then finally sex.

      You spent 30 min with a girl, got her #, then spent like 5-7 hours goofing around and got sex. You could’ve even made her pay for her own drinks lol

      Compared to a normal guy, that’s pretty slick.

      I think part of why I grew to like women is that I looked at that 7 hours as fun instead of an obstacle. To me 7hrs was mind-blowingly fast compared to what people think so it was like lol sure lets go on a little adventure and tease eachother and okay show me your family photos when we’re at your place, oh cool so you’re into bla bla…like I know the sex will happen either that night or the next so fuck it, lets smile and have fun and people-watch together and let me drag her into the rain for a kiss and let’s pretend we’re brother & sister then weird people out by kissing and lets collect some funny stories and fuck it lets pop into the strip club and lets hit an arcade so I can kick her ass at a game and then let her win so she can do a victory dance, lets sneak up to the roof to slow-dance to songs on my iPod…

      Like man, it’s all fun. Esp when you’re with a cute girl you know you’ll be banging later.

      For normal guys (specifically the rich good looking ones who thought having $ and a 6-pack and nice car would = instant pussy), it can be frustrating like man I’ve spent $500 and it’s been a month of dates, where’s the return on my investment!! Or for bitter “women are all shit” Manosphere type PUAs the 7 hours is a chore like “ugh now I have to TALK to her…why can’t she just put out?? Women only say stupid shit anyway, fuckin bitches.”

      That’s all silly to me. Far as I’m concerned I’m making out like a bandit even if it takes me 9 hours instead of 7 lol

Chicks Dig Jerks: The Truth Is Breaching Containment Zone

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 17, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Original Link

They dig cads in comparison to betas, but it really seems like strong man of virtue > cad.

Still don’t think it’s because they are jerks. It’s because being a jerk is a manifestation of strength. Chicks dig strength. So, ya jerk is way better than supplicating nice guy because one is strong and the other is weak.

[CH: Whether the jerkiness itself is attractive to women, or the jerkiness is a signal for other traits that are attractive to women, the consequences and the lessons for men are the same: Act like a jerk, get pussy.]

  • YaReally
    on July 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm
    Original Link

    Betas = woman who looks average or ugly with no makeup in plain clothes

    Cads = woman who looks hot in makeup and a slutty dress

    Virtue = woman who looks hot with no makeup in plain clothes.

    Ya, the ideal is the last one, the chick who’s a 10 fresh out of bed on a Sunday morning, but she’s so rare that you’ll take the 2nd one in the meantime.

    Cad is just the fastest/easiest way to display attractive attributes, and women so rarely meet an alpha guy with virtue blah blah who’s ALSO good at seduction, that they’ll go for the cads cause what’s the alternative? Going for the beta or waiting for the unicorn to magically arrive?

    The problem is a lot of betas try jumping to the virtue route but it’s not because that’s who they are, it’s because they think that’s what women want and they’re doing it just to get in the girl’s pants…they aren’t genuinely spreading value or living up to their standards etc…thus the butt-hurtness when their offerings aren’t reciprocate.

    Someone who truly virtuously gives value to the people around him doesn’t care whether they thank him or reciprocate…he’s doing it because that’s who he is.

    But again this is rare. Usually guys like that are guys who’ve been thru a lot of self-discovery in their life and really solidified what they believe and who they are and how they act. We live in a culture that shuns self-analysis and tells us we’re all perfect no matter how shitty we are, and we make fun of people who get into self-help/development and bring them down like crabs in a bucket when they try to grow, so that we won’t be forced to confront our own lack of drive or success.

    So in the meantime, a cad is a convenient option for women. But men should strive to be more than that, for their own sake.

    • Scray
      on July 17, 2013 at 5:05 pm
      Original Link

      Ya, thanks for helping express that. Right now it’s like several pieces of a puzzle keep falling down in several places. It’s fun tho. I set that Day 2 for tonight btw……so we’ll see.

  • Scray
    on July 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm
    Original Link

    Well, that’s true…but there could be something deeper than just ‘be a jerk.’ If there wasn’t something -deeper- we wouldn’t have to demarcate shit like ‘cheerful asshole’ vs. ‘bitter asshole.’ Aren’t both of them types of jerks?

    [CH: The degree of jerkiness isn't the distinction there; rather, it's the outcome dependence. (Outcome independent jerks are more desired than outcome dependent jerks.) But both are still better than being a boring niceguy.]

    There’s a crucial difference between the two types — one is still weak and the other is strong.

    [Conventionally, the jerk is the guy who's in control of his emotions (note that this doesn't mean he's a stone-faced unreadable totem). So his strength is implied. The guy who lets it all hang out and flies his butthurt flag high isn't a jerk so much as a creep, or a tool, or a loser.]

    What makes the ‘cheerful asshole’ strong is his unbreakable reality. You could call him a faggot and say he was ugly and blah blah blah and he’d still give a genuine smile and shrug —- because nothing you can say or do is going to shake him. His strong will is the key. That’s what’s cool…not really the fact that he’s a dick.

    [I wouldn't get too carried away with this "just stand there and do nothing when insulted" trope that this is supposed to be attractive to women. Nevertheless, sexy jerks often act in ways and say things that would be deemed impolite by other men, or by niceguys who can't understand why they don't get any action.]

    • YaReally
      on July 17, 2013 at 5:25 pm
      Original Link

      I heart both of you but the disconnect you guys are running into here is what I’ve said before about “if two of the same thing give you different results, drill deeper to find the diamond of a consistent principle”.

      CH is just looking more at the surface level of “what works” while Scray is trying to figure out “WHY does this work?” (because this is all a new/fascinating puzzle to him, I was the same way myself and attribute the drive to link concepts together as part of why I improved quickly)

      You guys technically aren’t disagreeing, you’re just looking at different levels of the concept/principle.

      The commonalities between the aggressive take-no-shit asshole and the laid back no fuck given agreeable asshole are knowing their own standards of what they tolerate from people and being congruent to that. They have different standards from eachother but the point is that they, personally, have those standards from within themselves. ie – when the aggressive assholish says “HEY. Cut that shit out.” he’s not doing that because he’s worried about what people will think, he’s doing it because it crosses his line. Same time when the chill guy is like “ya man you got me, there’s a dildo in my ass right NOW, that’s why I’m sitting funny”, he’s not doing it because he’s worried about what people will think, he’s doing it because it doesn’t cross his line.

      In both cases they’re congruent to their solid internal beliefs and acting from their own intentions rather than reacting to the world around them. Those are the diamond consistent concepts under the differing surface behaviors.

      …but it’s easier to just tell newbies to act like assholes because this is too deep for them. Then trust that they’ll dig for the diamond on their own down the road. Learning game is a life-long journey. :)

      • Scray
        on July 17, 2013 at 5:52 pm
        Original Link

        Ya this all seems like more advanced stuff for sure. Def not anything I deploy with any amount of consistency.

Reader Mailbag: A Mighty Fuck Given Edition

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 16, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Original Link

I dunno, 4.5′s-6.5s girls who think they are the hottest things to walk the earth normally have nastier attitudes (to guys and fellow gals) than 7s and ups. Could never figure out why.

Re: advice to the girl having alpha player dilemma, pretty much all heartiste said. I will place more emphasis in appearing more scarce and not too available via text e.t.c (while still being nice and sweet when he initiates contact). It doesn’t mean you will win him back or he would think of you more as a result, but you can at least try to salvage/save/preserve your dignity. Work on improving your physical appearance, there is always room for improvement and when you move back to town, do not directly let him know you are available. I am sure the news will somehow get to him. Wait it out to see if he initiates some contact and subsequently asks you out. If he doesn’t, count your losses and move on.

  • Scray
    on July 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm
    Original Link

    They’re more approachable. Guys from 3.5-8 gun for that range. They get a lot of attention. Whereas, an 8 is getting attention from 7-10 range guys. I mean, girls who are in that range know that they are in kind of a tough spot. A 3.5 girl IRL (online lol…fugghetaboutit) sort of knows she has to just settle for some 4-5 beta. A 5.5 girl? Ehhhhh…….she’s just on the cusp of greater things.

    That said, there’s nothing universal about that rule. There are plenty of slutty 7′s and plenty of chaste ‘good girl’ 5′s. An interesting subject is the nature of femininity….

    …like, you take a 5 and a 6 — the 5 is more classically feminine in appearance and the 6 has more of a mannish look. I’d probably prefer the 5 to the 6, even though I guess the 6 is more attractive. Then I’d wonder if this whole ‘who’s sluttier’ thing has more to do with who has more feminine/masculine features. It could just be that being hotter, as a woman, correlates with having more feminine features.

    • PetiteOlive
      on July 16, 2013 at 9:51 pm
      Original Link

      i hear ya. I just think a lot of mid level attractive girls have a more stuck up attitude than their hotter counterparts. It’s almost as if they have ‘something to prove’.

      • immoralgables
        on July 16, 2013 at 10:13 pm
        Original Link


        Your inclination is definitely correct. Here’s why:

        1) Once you get to a certain point where you feel that you can do better (or WANT to do better) than the mid-level attractive girls (ex: HB6s), this entitlement or want for better girls comes across in how you communicate with them.

        So, you might not be putting your whole effort or genuine energy into the sarge with the HB6 and she can pick up on that. I can’t really pin-point the sub-communications itself but since girls are notoriously astute at picking up the signals than people give off, they know that the PUA is not being genuine with his desire.

        If he’s not being genuine with his desire then the PUA doesn’t really like the HB6 for “her.”

        If the PUA doesn’t really like the HB6 for her, then he only wants to use her for sex.

        If the PUA only wants to use her for sex, then her ASD goes up and hence the more defiant behavior.

        Me personally, I’m in the stage where I’m trying to move on up from that girl. It’s mainly out of the following two:

        1) It’s my mission to get more attractive girls in my life than what I was used to. If not, I’m only wasting the girls time and also my time.

        2) Early on, I led a few of the mid-level girls astray and wasn’t fully honest with them. A couple got hurt as I gave off relationship signals and were more-so when I did this after sex. I’m not proud of it but hey I was learning.

        In regards to leaving girls better than you found them. It all makes sense now. If not, you perpetuate a vicious cycle with the HB6s.

        1) PUA seduces the HB6 but isn’t honest/genuine with her. HB6 ends up being jaded/damaged (yet she still prefers assholes.)

        2) HB6 hurts or turns down nice-guy/normal-guy. She is either attracted to jerks/PUAs now or she is jaded from the “courtship” dance.

        3) Nice guy is hurt. Discovers PUA; or even worse, just discovers the meaning of “Chicks dig jerks” and goes to the dark-side.

        4) Former nice guy seduces the HB6 but isn’t honest genuine with her…

        Anyways, I should have mentioned up top. But again, props to commenter “PimpinBlueStar” for eloquently stating why the true cuties/hotties are nicer than the mid-level girl. Link and relevant quote:

        1) The hottest are actually the sweetest, when you are genuine and straight up with them. Maybe it’s a self selecting thing that the girls I go after and get i intuitively know will probably like me back as well, but I don’t get nearly the harshness, coldness or excessive testiness I get when I cold approach somwhere between a 6 and 7.5. This is the complete opposite of what I would have guessed before I had emailed cajun about this stuff and he’s totally right.

        2) Hot girls are acutely aware of the attention that they get and the power that their pussy caries, and the 6′s and 7′s know this as well. Which is why, IMO, they can be more crass and testy towards a guy (such as yourself!) who approaches and hits on them. They don’t have the clout that their hotter sisters carry, and in the back of their minds they know it. They’re probably thinking when you approach them “Ok this guy just wants to fuck me and then go after someone hotter. I’m not going to get played, so I’m just going to tell him that he’s not my type.”

        • YaReally
          on July 17, 2013 at 3:43 pm
          Original Link

          Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis. I agree with everything you said here. Solid solid comment.

          ESP this:
          “So, you might not be putting your whole effort or genuine energy into the sarge with the HB6 and she can pick up on that. I can’t really pin-point the sub-communications itself but since girls are notoriously astute at picking up the signals than people give off, they know that the PUA is not being genuine with his desire.

          If he’s not being genuine with his desire then the PUA doesn’t really like the HB6 for “her.”

          If the PUA doesn’t really like the HB6 for her, then he only wants to use her for sex.

          If the PUA only wants to use her for sex, then her ASD goes up and hence the more defiant behavior.”

          This started happening to me and it was frustrating because they’d try to pre-emptively reject me because they could sense I wasn’t really into them, then I would get pissed at THEM because I was thinking “wtf how am I getting rejected by a girl that I didn’t even want in the first place!!! FUCK this!!”

          The cure, of course, was to simply accept that I’d moved up and should be going after girls that genuinely spark interest in me so I’m congruent. Now I can chat with average girls but I keep my game low key with them and just be friendly and they don’t hate me now lol

Days of Broken Arrows
on July 16, 2013 at 1:55 pm
Original Link

About #1: Regardless of her numerical “rank,” women do not take well to be blown off and often will shut the door permanently if you reject them.

That means the following: if you had fucked her, then mistreated her twenty different ways, you’d have a MUCH better shot now. The worst thing you can do is rebuff the advances of a woman, even if it’s out of “respect” because you know you won’t really be into her.

I can’t explain why this is, but this is the way women behave. I discovered this when FB came into being. All the girls I screwed them blew off wanted to friend me, yet the ones I didn’t take advantage of completely ignored me. You’d think it would be the other way around but it’s not.

As Shakespeare said, “Hell hath no fury…”

  • YaReally
    on July 16, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    Original Link

    “I can’t explain why this is”

    It’s perfectly logical and congruent to women-logic lol:

    • RappaccinisDaughter
      on July 17, 2013 at 9:04 am
      Original Link

      Yeah, that’s about right, although I never thought of it as a “window.” It was more like:

      “I’m dropping hints that I’m interested and…oh. He’s either not picking up on them, which means he’s not looking for hints, which means he’s not interested—or, worse, he IS picking up on them and ignoring them because he’s not interested (and now he knows I was, how embarrassing)! Well, at least I get to get out of this with my dignity intact. But now I can hardly even look at him. This is excruciating; get me out of here.”

      And then more often than not, a few hours or days or months or YEARS later, I find out he was interested all along. And then I’m wondering, “How could he possibly have missed the message? What did he want me to do, send him a registered letter?” Because to me, it felt like I was being pretty blatant, almost past the point of plausible deniability.

      • YaReally
        on July 17, 2013 at 3:34 pm
        Original Link

        These are the same feelings the orbiting Nice Guy “he’s like a brother to me” goes thru which is why he lingers in the shadows for years hoping his one-itis finally chooses him.

        Conversation between myself and the drunk friend of a girl I picked up while my girl drove us all to their place after the bar:

        Other girl: “god I wanted to fuck that guy so bad he was so hot.”

        Me: “did you talk to him?”

        OG: “?? No. But I looked RIGHT AT him. All night!! God I’m so embarrassed I must’ve looked so desperate :(

        And she said it with complete frustration and belief that THAT is all she needed to do on her end AND that the guy was a jerk/snubbed her because he didn’t notice and come say hi, AND she felt like she acted like the sluttiest slut who ever slutted by trying to make eye contact with him lol

        My red pill mind level’ed up after that conversation lol

        • Scray
          on July 17, 2013 at 3:48 pm
          Original Link


          Like, just getting out there I realize why the ‘assume attraction’ mindset is so useful. You honestly don’t know. Maybe she thinks sitting there and listening to you blah blah for a few minutes = her throwing herself at you. Maybe she thinks asking you two or three questions = her being a slut. I mean, I can’t really recognize what type of girl I’m dealing with (and the answers to those questions) until much later….like maybe in hour 2 or 3 of interacting with a girl. I hope to get better at it….but for now, I just have to assume it’s on because lol…how the fuck do I know, unless she backturns/ignores/tells me to fuck myself?

on July 16, 2013 at 4:27 pm
Original Link

whoa, weird txt exchange….7 flake —> ya, with all my flakes I try to figure out how to possibly save it, rebuild value, etc.

Me: (after she said she would get back to me about a day 2….no response, no nothing…it’s been a few weeks…I just figure ‘why not, fuck it’) ….welp, this is an awkward silence. like, if you’ve been kidnapped I rly think I dropped the ball in letting the authorities kno in a timely fashion. forgive, this is a new social situation for me.
Her: (hours later) lol! hey, how are you?! It’s good to hear from you.
(no response)
Her: Anyway, I owe you an apology, and I’d like to apologize to you in person :) let me know if that’s possible this week?
(I literally raised my eyebrow at that….wtf…………going…..awwwn….perhaps initial txt was kind of butthurt, must adjust)
Me: I’ve been good. An apology?
Her: Yeah :) I was supposed to let you kno about us hanging out but I flaked like a rude bitch (I was so tired from working that day that I passed out like an old lady!) and I was just too embarrassed to say anything about it.

My reaction —>

Not sure what angle this is. I just work off worst case scenario — something better came along and fell through, now she’s trying to get back in my good graces. Act accordingly.

Me: k u did a good job, but your punishment must be moar seveaah. (this is callback humor to when I met her….just talking about Bane, etc.)
Her: ok judge bane ;) (she remembers…..hmmmmmmmmmmm….)
Me: k u must dress sexy and buy me a drink. this is fair and just.
Her: I will ;) let me know which day works for you.

we’ll see what this chick is up to………….

  • YaReally
    on July 16, 2013 at 5:40 pm
    Original Link

    You should fuck her. That’s my advice. Lol

    Also lol at the suspicious “is this a prank?” face. I was the same way at first. Like I say, you came farther faster than you expected. If I got a txt like that these days I would be like “no shit you were a dickhead. I’m married with 3 kids now but my wife got fat so we can hang out on the side.” and just assume the sale.

    Three keys here:

    1) push for the meet-up ASAP. She wants your cock and it sounds like you have a clear path if she’s being so agreeable.

    2) she might flake again. Don’t be butt-hurt, that’s fine. But shoot for a low flake risk hangout like something casual (drinks at a quiet pub that’s not out of your way where you can just flirt with the bartender if she flakes and try to bang her or build social proof for future Day 2s) on an off night VS trying to coordinate her drunk friends and your drunk friends on a Saturday night.

    I think there’s a solid chance she won’t flake again because of how embarrassed she is about doing it before. Even if she DOES flake that’s fine, it gives you a chance to practice some dominant drama teasing by giving her some playful shit about it and playing harder-to-get to meet up the next time so that she’s less likely to flake the 3rd try. This is like when you tell a girl “gimme your number” “okay” “hmmm no wait you’re drunk. You won’t even remember me tomorrow.” “Yes I will!!” “I dunno. Drunk chicks are annoying, you might not even txt me back.” “I will I promise!! Txt me right NOW!! (grabs your phone)”. She might’ve flaked on the “okay” but teasing made it solid.

    3) most important: NO SEXY TALK. You have a Day 2 lined up and you were sexual enough telling her to dress hot. Getting all seductive over txts will get her horny but trigger her ASD and likely make her flake. A little innuendo flirting is okay, but put yourself in a “we’re just hanging out, no biggie, I’m too tired to even HAVE sex” mindset. She knows you have a penis, and she’s agreed to meet up, you’ve done enough groundwork to escalate it in person to sex.

    Also fuck it, 4) Come up with a plan. Don’t tell her “I’m free Wednesday.” and expect her to fill the rest in. She’s still a girl, they don’t know how to arrange a Day 2 and are nervous too and arranging it can trigger their ASD since its admitting wanting to meet up with a guy they know will fuck them. So instead be like “I’m free Wednesday. Dust off that dress, we’re going to Pub for drinks. What time are you off work?” If she says she can’t make Wednesday you go “That’s alright. I have plans with a friend thursday so that’s no good. How about Tuesday?” (some hamster-feed with the ambiguous “friend” there) and if she still says she can’t make that either, you to “lol busy girl. We’ll try again next week.” and Soft Next till Sunday or, if you DO talk to her, just don’t try to make any plans for that week, stick to your guns so she knows “when Scray offers, I better accept.” A Soft Next is better tho because she’s already missed you so it’s cat-string to have pulled away that month then dangle in her reach now then she can’t find time for you so you pull away again till next week when you dangle again where she’ll go “okay I’d better make some time for this!!”

    Good luck. :)

    • Scray
      on July 16, 2013 at 5:53 pm
      Original Link

      All right. That all sounds real solid. Thanks Ya and immoral.

      • YaReally
        on July 16, 2013 at 6:17 pm
        Original Link

        No prob. Let us know how it goes.

        For your internals: it would LEGITIMATELY surprise me if you didn’t have sex with her. Like, the variables going on here, to me, are a done deal in terms of whether its possible to get the lay or not.

        I wouldn’t give you shit if you didn’t get the lay, I would legitimately be like “wow really? I’m surprised. Okay let’s look at what happened and where in your game we can tighten up because that SHOULD have happened so there must be a rusty screw somewhere we need to fix.”

        So if it helps, go in with the knowledge that to an experienced PUA, this is a situation you are 100% capable of closing. :)

        • Scray
          on July 16, 2013 at 7:08 pm
          Original Link

          Ya we’ll see. I don’t want to put too much pressure on myself lol.

Comment Of The Week: When It “Does Count”

Original Link

via Heartiste

the latent sadist
on July 14, 2013 at 8:11 pm
Original Link


how would you handle a girl whos been subtly hinting for a relationship…after banging 4 times over the course of a month. Havent hung in two weeks.Last exchange i was trying to get her over as usual.

Me: “lets chill tnight”

Her: “and do what” (first i’ve ever heard this)

Me: “arts and crafts”

Her: “Haha sounds fun!”

Me: “Hmmm”

Me: “So?”

Her: “Not tonight. I’ve been feeling sick lately”

Me: “*Jimmy fever eh?” (*Not my real name)

then like 45 minutes later

Her: “too bad you cant come over. im watching movies alone :/”

i try to avoid overly beta response…something neutral.

Me: “ya too bad youre not up for it”

Her: “I dont want to have sex tonight…”

Me: “And?”

Her “And what?”

Me: “Are you inviting me over…”

Her “You cant come over.”

Me: “I know right.”

I had no fuckin clue what to say so i reverted to one of my default aloof responses. Though in hindsight i wish id have not responded at all.

The deal now is, i hit her up three days later and she completely ignored me. for the first time. IBeen goin out, gaming others yada yada.

Im not opposed to giving this girl signs of provider/LTR type of guy…assuming it wouldnt be a death knell after 4 bangs in a month. Up until this blow off, shes been reliable, submissive, shes young. Treats me well…sorta scared of my opinion of her, and can be sweet about trying to please me. Doesnt stir drama up in my life. I wonder if im not giving enough beta provider signals and going too much alpha. Cant say i really know how to navigate when a girl is feeling insecure about whether you truly want her or not….to keep the legs open and the hamster spinnin.


  • Scray
    on July 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm
    Original Link

    This seems to be a matter of trying to be all terse and shit when it’s clear you’re losing value to her.

    ‘Her: “too bad you cant come over. im watching movies alone :/”
    Me: “ya too bad youre not up for it”’”

    wtf. why did you say that lol
    In this situ I’d try to trojan horse it. ‘Ya I’ll come over and we’ll just chill and talk and cuddle’ – esque. I mean, in reality……we all know what would happen when I or you went over there.

    But honestly, I would have added stuff to the arts and crafts joke (she’s already behaving strangely at that point…which means she’s uneasy)….’arts and crafts — I’ve been practicing making balloon animals but they end up kind of looking like my dick if it were pink :(

    Let’s say she says same thing ‘sounds fun!’

    ‘Ya, let’s do it like around 9?’
    ‘Not tonight, been feeling a little sick lately’
    ‘o shit….I’ll bring u chicken noodle soup, but only if you give me a nice backrub and get me pizza’

    blah blah blah. point being, just whatever it takes to get you over there. Once you’re there, you’re -in-.

    I don’t even think it’s about beta provider v. alpha…I think it’s the fact that terseness/aloof only maintains value…but you do it long enough, and they start to wonder ‘wait, why am I here again?’ So then you demonstrate all of those traits again just as a reminder. Instead of alpha alpha beta —> awesome/ aloof/ awesome.

    • the latent sadist
      on July 15, 2013 at 9:52 pm
      Original Link

      i said it because i had hit her up to chill, and it was the first time shed ever balked like that. It was uncharacteristic. I had written the evening off so when she hit me up 45 mins later with that…i thought id call her bluff. The deal is that apparantly I cant go to her home (lives w parents). I never have. Every time weve chilled has been at my place. It has never even come going to this was out of left field. I took this as her like pseudo-inviting me over…because she wants some sort of commitment reassurance. Think bout it. I hit her up to chiull after weve casually boned over a the whole month…she says for the first time “And do what?” Immediately something is up here…uncharacteristic. I took it has her indirectly trying to see if i would be willing to see her w/out the sex (never have).

      So thats why i put the onus back on her…with the “too bad you aint down”. to call her bluff. And it did call her bluff, because she blurted that she didnt want to have sex. So it was female trickery…the motivations for i have no idea. I assumed it was a test for commitment. lol what the hell else could i have actively done? Id rather have just ignored the whole thing.

      • YaReally
        on July 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm
        Original Link

        “I took it has her indirectly trying to see if i would be willing to see her w/out the sex (never have).”

        This is what’s happening.

        “feed her hamster of not being a cum dumpster at least a little — she is a person….”

        This is why it’s happening.

        “I think it’s the fact that terseness/aloof only maintains value…but you do it long enough, and they start to wonder ‘wait, why am I here again?’ So then you demonstrate all of those traits again just as a reminder. Instead of alpha alpha beta —> awesome/ aloof/ awesome.”

        This is how to fix it.

        Basic cat-string theory. You’re the string too far out of reach so the cat gives up.

        You have too much of this shit clouding your head:

        “I dunno im just reluctant to be all “aw come over and ill take care of you” blah dee blah…i dont trust her or women in general”

        You’re dying to hit the radio silence button and she can tell you’re one and a half feet out the door. She has feelings and wants to know she’s more than a fuck hole, except that she isn’t, because you have too much baggage and you’re too worried about your ego and sounding alpha and aloof instead of actually liking the girls you’re with.

        This is essentially a long-term version of Buyer’s Remorse, where you’ve made her feel like you think she’s slutty (whether you actually think that or not, she FEELS like you do) by only wanting to bang and by being aloof, so she wants to do non-sex related things to see if she’s just another cum dumpster to you.

        If you want her, you don’t have to go to her house. Just do something non sex-related, like take her out on a date somewhere or cook dinner for her or even watch movies together at your place, and just don’t shoot for sex. Even disqualify it with something like “no babe I’m too sore from working out to fool around, I just want to watch some movies. Don’t be mad that I don’t put out tonight, I can barely move lol”. She’ll either escalate things and make it obvious she wants sex toward the end of the night when she realizes you’re not making a move, or she’ll go home and not feel like you just like her for the sex and the next time you hang you’ll likely bang.

        This is a completely salvageable situation.

        Of course having gotten INTO this situation means that you’ve already fucked up because you’ve just triggered the Ultimatum Countdown, where you have X amount of time/bangs left before she gives you the “either we’re BF/GF or I can’t do this anymore, I like you too much and it hurts too bad” Ultimatum where you’ll have to either be her BF or let her go (you can still salvage things from here, but then you start getting into some “dark game” psyche warfare that runs the risk of fucking her up long-term for relationships).

        You need to look into avoiding Buyer’s Remorse and disarming LMR to avoid this situation for longer. Also remember that if you give absolutely no beta provider hints at all, she won’t categorize you as possible BF material and you can avoid this (tho that comes with its own set of problems)…but that said, also remember that it depends on the girl’s personality type. The one you’ve got sounds like a generic Good Girl type who wants to have sex within a BF/GF relationship with you VS a casual bang.

        Also your txt game is pretty weak/uncalibrated but you got blindsided and it sounds like this hasn’t happened to you before so I won’t give you too much shit.

        For reference I would’ve turned it around at either of these two points:

        “And do what?”

        This is girl-code for “you just want sex don’t you? :( ” This is the optimal time to handle this if you end up in this situ. This tells me she needs to do something that isn’t sex-related so I would drop something like:

        “I want to go see Movie. Come with me.”

        or “I’m cooking us dinner.” (you can just order a pizza lol)

        or “lets go for a walk, there’s an awesome place I want to show you.”

        I would skip bars/drinking (like “let’s go out for a drink” because that = sex).

        And calibrating to her personality type, I would probably also know to throw in a sex disqualifier like “no sex tonight, I’m exhausted. I just want to hang out, haven’t seen you in a while.” or something that’s semi-ambiguous but hints that I might see her as more than a lay.

        If I fucked up and didn’t clue in and ended up at the second point:

        “I’m feeling sick”

        I would do what Scray said and tell her I’m bringing her soup (note I wouldn’t ask if she wants me to, I would tell her that’s what’s happening). If I didn’t want to risk a run-in with her parents I would either have her sneak me in to watch movies and eat soup together (then wait for her to initiate banging while we cuddle and she’s surprised I’m not making a move). Or I’d be a romantic baws and leave the soup on her doorstep and txt her to go look outside and head home lol. Score a jillion “awwwe” points for that one.

        Note that this is al beta gayness behavior, BUT also note that you’re only in this situ because you fucked up and let it get TO this situ…and the more down the fucked up path you let it get, the more beta you have to be to salvage it, and the more beta you have to be to salvage it the sooner you’re going to run into The Ultimatum which will generally end things.

        So yes, YaReally’s a big homo telling you to bring her soup and not escalate, but note that the responses to her first signal (“and do what”) are more alpha. It’s just a matter of how fucked the situation is.

        You’re dying to do radio silence because you don’t know how to recover and you can tell that the ways TO recover will involve being beta/lame and your ego has an Identity built around not acting beta and basically you would have to shit on your Identity…plus the general baggage toward women you’ve built up.

        I’m not saying any of that is necessarily a bad thing. I’m just telling you 3 + 1 = 4 so if you have 3 and want to get 4, you need to add 1. If you don’t want 4, that’s alright too…but understand that the formula is completely solvable, as long as adding that 1 in there is something you’re willing to do.

Dan And Nadine

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 12, 2013 at 12:43 pm
Original Link

OMG FIRST!!!! lol

This is totally how solid AMOGing comes off. In that friendly way where the guy CAN’T punch him, he’s complimenting his shot etc, but he’s out-alpha’ing him and making him react to him and the girls CHOOSE him.

That’s the key. Is making the girl CHOOSE you. If you hit on her and she rejects you and you keep going, her orbiter can punch you and rescue her and she might bone him. If you’re just cooler than him and trigger her Hypergamy and she’s choosing you, he CAN’T hit you because 1) he can instinctively sense it won’t get him the girl because she likes you, just like you can’t just punch a husband and walk off with his doting wife, and 2) he’s still secretly hoping that down the road she’ll realize he’s better than “those jerks” and will come around but knows she won’t if he punches out the guy she likes.

So he sucks it up, mutters a “yeah thanks… :( ” as he watches it all play out in front of him, and goes off to “make a phone call”.

This is how it plays out in real life. Even with your big scary MMA buddy.

  • YaReally
    on July 12, 2013 at 12:47 pm
    Original Link

    No first. :’(

    Also for Scray when you read this here’s that 30 day challenge breakdown:

    Have a good weekend all. Go try to get slapped by some chicks lol While you’re reading this, they’re getting their hair and nails done hoping to get laid tonight.

    • Scray
      on July 12, 2013 at 1:48 pm
      Original Link

      yaaaaaaaa…….thanks a lot. what’s strange is that you were telling me about my internals, and these last few times when I’ve been out….that’s exactly what I’ve kind of done. I mean it hasn’t been conscious ‘work on your inner game!’ It’s been like ‘maaaan phuck it, why put so much pressure on everything? Just take it one step at a time. Talk to chicks to shoot the shit, if it goes somewhere, it goes somewhere….if not, there’s lots more.’

      And I think I’m just in an awkward place b/c I can’t rely as much on the uggos anymore, but it’s not like I’m just making the hot girls explode with attraction instantly. So, for example, that hot girl in the heels….she had an uggo friend and a gigantor (like 6′ tall, srs) friend. Both of them were just hardcore active cockblocks.

      That thing about going out alone is so reassuring to hear, srs.

      I guess I’ll start trying to do some daygame.

      • immoralgables
        on July 12, 2013 at 2:04 pm
        Original Link

        Scray-dawg. Looks like we’re kind of stuck in the twilight zone lol.

        The HB6s and below know you subconsciously aren’t that attracted to them and are somewhat bitchy. Beyond that you yourself knows that you don’t want them that bad.

        The HB7s and up are harder to game and I think this will be a longer, arduous process to get up there and start seducing them successfully.

        It’s like if you’re in a pharmaceutical company where you’re selling a product competing against 499 other drug reps. If you start out the year in #487 out of 500, it’s relatively easy to put in the work and get to the number #200 spot. Getting into the top twenty is much, much harder.

        • YaReally
          on July 12, 2013 at 2:45 pm
          Original Link

          If it makes you guys feel any better, eeeeeevery PUA goes through this stage. And it’s exactly as frustrating as it feels lol…you pass that threshold where banging <6 just isn't an option anymore, like you couldn't force yourself to do it even with a gun to your head.

          But you're still chickenshit to go after the top girls AND there aren't as many 8+ chicks out there AND they're surrounded by more obstacles etc. so it's like "fuck, this feels harder and I've burned the boats on sailing back to the easy shit" lol

          Your only option is to wallow in frustration and misery, or sack up and tell yourself you won't leave the bar without approaching the 3 hottest girls there even if they shoot you down or the logistics are terrible.

          Also this is where you have to learn to enjoy the process like Scray mentions in his reply…like you have to have fun in approaching in general and going out and goofing around with people and making friends etc because if you only focus on the result, you're going to be in too shitty/needy a headspace to GET the result you want.

          Tyler describes this as "I just go out and fuck around and have fun, spin some girls, try to kiss them, laugh with my buddies, and by the end of the night there's just a hot girl up on me." Sure you can still apply conscious strategy and all that, which is important to improving (you don't go to the gym and just randomly fling heavy things around a random number of times), but you should take joy in the process itself and have fun.

          Also keep in mind that passing into this twilight zone means that you're progressing…your internals will no longer accept scraps. They think "no, we deserve better than this." So now your externals have to catch up to the internals. It's always this constant battle between the two lol but down the road the difference between them becomes smaller and smaller till you get to be someone like Russell Brand or Robbie Williams or Clooney where his internal sense of entitlement matches his external game.

on July 12, 2013 at 1:06 pm
Original Link

Perfect post for the field report I have now.

Went out last night, and ran into two of my buddies, who are unfortunately both complete betas. But I joined them in hanging out with this group of what appeared at first to be three couples at one of the booths. But, one of the girls seemed to take a strong liking to me, notwithstanding the dude who almost constantly had his arm draped around her. The most attractive girl in the group was very outgoing and energetic, and she also seemed to be interested, although not quite as strongly. (The last girl was least attractive, and moreover showed little interest in me, so she’s irrelevant to the story.) I chatted up the girl who liked me most strongly and the arm-draper, hit it off with them, and then at some point, the girl got her phone out for pictures and asked me to take a picture of her and the arm-draper — which she emphasized as her “friend”. Ohhhh… burn. And Arm-draper didn’t seem to notice. I had her text a cool photo that she took of me to my phone, and got her number. She also gave me her full name and showed me her Twitter on her phone.

We bounced to two different venues before splitting for the night — one of my beta buddies left early, as he always does — during which time my other buddy confirmed that Arm-draper and the girl were not a couple, but that they “cuddled a lot”. At the last place, my other beta buddy got a pizza and shared it with the group, with the girls saying, “oh, you’re so niiice!” and that kind of thing. Arm-draper did once refer to the girl who liked me as his “girlfriend”.

Meanwhile, I and the other energetic girl, who is into fitness and lifts weights a lot, had some armwrestling matches with others in the group — I beat everybody, and the energetic girl was pretty surprised. She just then made it clear that the dude she had on her arm was not her boyfriend either — her real boyfriend was coming to give them rides soon. She appeared anxious to know if I was going to hang out with them tomorrow evening too, and since her phone was dead, I had her put her number in my phone.

So, it would appear, at least going by this experience last night, that beta cuddle-bitches, as opposed to real boyfriends, are much more common than I realized. I got home with two numbers and an invite to hang with them again.

  • Scray
    on July 12, 2013 at 2:28 pm
    Original Link

    I’m getting to the point where I can spot couples vs. non-couples and beta orbiter vs. alpha/natural friend.

    The coolest thing to do when you’re talking to a hot girl and her beta orbiter friend comes and sits down is to immediately ask “so are you guys together?” Make them verbalize that shit. Bonus points if the girl laughs in response — for you, I mean.

    This does a lot of things — most of which the beta orbiter remains unaware of. First, it seems to establish that you’re playing on the arena floor — I am a potential suitor or nothing at all. Like, when/if you get shot down later, the beta thinks ‘yaaaa nice, that fool is done’ because he doesn’t realize that he isn’t even in the game — he’s a spectator in the stands. Difference?

    You see the girl again, and you can play again — he really can’t play without some HUGE hail mary maneuvers.

    It’s awesome that you’re going out. Eventually, maybe we can start all tossing experimental routines/ideas back and forth to try out in the field

    • YaReally
      on July 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm
      Original Link

      Ya, in that situ I address the guy just incase it’s her BF to show respect but in a way that if he’s not her BF I get my same “oh he’s just my friend!!” result:

      “Oh sorry man, is this your girlfriend? My bad, dude I didn’t realize you two were dating.”

      If he’s her BF, he likes me because I showed respect and backed off when he arrived. If he’s her orbiter, she’ll go “oh no no this is just my friend!” and I have a green light, the brightness of which blocks out the sight of his poor heart shattering into a thousand pieces behind his sad smile lol.

on July 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm
Original Link

Am I the only one who feels like there’s a missing punchline here? I keep waiting for CH to drop the other shoe with an update…especially given that enigmatic last paragraph. It reads like the voiceover introduction to a true-crime story…”Nightmare Next Door” or something similar.

  • YaReally
    on July 12, 2013 at 2:29 pm
    Original Link

    No, that’s partly the point. In the end, for most people shit will work out alright. It might not be amazing, it might not be the best they dreamed for themselves, but they’ll be okay and convince themselves that what they have is enough and they didn’t really want more anyway.

    It’s like in Hitch:

    Alex “Hitch” Hitchens: He’d be interested… but he would see that there was no way of possibly making her realize, that he was for real.
    Sara: Ah… he could be funny, and charming, and refreshingly original.
    Alex “Hitch” Hitchens: Wouldn’t help.
    Sara: Don’t ya hate it when that happens?
    Alex “Hitch” Hitchens: Not really… they’d probably both lead the lives they were headed toward, and my guess is… they’d do just fine. It’s a pleasure to have met you, Sara Melas.

    The whole point of game, really, is that if you WANT more and you WANT to control your destiny and your life, here are the tools and support network to help you learn to do that.

    If you don’t, well, I hope things work out for you…you’ll probably do just fine. Human beings have gotten by on “just fine” for thousands of years. But “just fine” isn’t enough for some of us, that’s all.

    • RappaccinisDaughter
      on July 12, 2013 at 3:09 pm
      Original Link

      What’s interesting is that a lot of this game stuff has applications for everyone, not just men on the prowl. Reading here has actually been quite helpful for me on a number of levels.

      I’m a naturally introverted, shy person…it’s a real effort for me to approach and speak to strangers. Sometimes I throw up before events where I know I’m going to have to “work a room.” The problem is that although about 80% of what I need to do plays into that introvert wheelhouse, about 20% of it involves needing to be charming and social with people I don’t know. Oh, I can be moderately successful without that 20%, but if I can master it, it’ll do nothing but help me.

      I actually used some advice that you posted to a guy some time ago…about forcing myself to approach people when there were no stakes, and getting myself used to the idea that yes, I can talk to a stranger and not get laughed at or tarred and feathered or whatever the hell it is my hindbrain is convinced is going to happen. Sort of like aversion therapy for people with phobias..and it’s helped during those times when there were things at stake. It really has. So…overdue thanks!

      • Scray
        on July 12, 2013 at 11:02 pm
        Original Link

        Pls don’t go overboard tho. There’s this one fat/big-boned/whatever girl I know, and she has a STRONG, STRONG frame. She controls her bf, she dominates a lot of social interactions.

        It’s such a huge turn-off to me. Like she’s not mean or anything….it’s just a real boner killer lol.

The Ideal Destination For The Single White Man

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 11, 2013 at 5:31 pm
Original Link

Nah. This is just ‘if only I were/had/could/blah blah……’ syndrome. And as David Lee Roth put it: “If you can’t do it in a white T-shirt and a pair of jeans under one white light bulb, you can’t do it!”

There are no shortcuts, dudebros.

Alpha Assessment: Terseness And Tingles Edition

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 10, 2013 at 1:10 pm
Original Link

This post really disturbs me. I feel such sympathy for the girl and such disgust and anger towards whatever sociopathic slimewad brags about taking advtantage of someone’s feelings and degrading them.

Who cares if this can be an effective way of manipulating some women into doing whatever you want? How would it be if some woman started writing a blog about how to take advantage of men and then laugh at them while they break down and cry? “Chateau Girltiste- Hey girls, you should marry a nice beta provider and then nail a bunch of alpha guys on the side! You’ll get all the benefits of a nice dude and a jerk at the same time! Oh and then when you get tired of nice guy, you should divorce him and keep the house and alimony! Yeah! Pity all the poor girls that don’t know about this and actually try to be nice to guys.”

Yes, you can treat girls like garbage and get what you want our of it. You can also be a con artist and treat any gullible person like garbage and then take them for all their worth. So what? It’s a wrong way to treat peopl0,e and those who do it are disgusting.

And in the end, guys that sociopathic do not function well in the world. People who treat girls like this will somehow end up angering men too and even if women never take him down, at some men other guys will. I’ve seen guys like that and they end up imploding under their own narcicistic personality disorder as drunkards with no career or fired from their job because others hate them so much.

  • YaReally
    on July 10, 2013 at 2:25 pm
    Original Link

    This is why I’m honest with girls about my intentions and what I’m offering, and prefer sober girls. I like the girl to have consciously made the decision to fuck me based on the mutual attraction I’ve built up with her, VS just brow-beating her with psyche warfare into regretfully fucking me.

    I’m totally CAPABLE of that, and there’s plenty of “dark game” PUA material for that for the guys who want to use it or just understand the dynamics behind it…AND there are certain personality types of girls who NEED that drama in their life and will get bored of a guy who doesn’t dole out a little drama now and then…

    BUT, I prefer the good clean sober honest approach ideally. I love women and I don’t like making them feel shitty lol. But some of the guys I hang out with are on the other end of that and revel in the drama and manipulation…it totally works but I’ve seen the aftermath of damaged girls some of them have left in their wake and I just don’t want to be that guy. I still go by the oldschool “leave them better than you found them” PUA rule.

    • feministx
      on July 10, 2013 at 2:32 pm
      Original Link

      I respect you for that.

      This guy is not an example of what normal properly constructed men or women think a desired interaction is. People who have developed into complete human beings recognize that heterosexual people are supposed to love a member of the opposite sex. They are not just supposed to fixate on playing a game with the other person’s mind to take advantage of them so they can degrade them and then throw them away. The interaction noted here is about hate and despising someone for no reason, not love or caring or growing with each other. This is not what women secretly want in their hearts unless there is something wrong with them.

      This man in the OP is like the AIDS virus bragging about how good it is at infecting Africa. It’s a possibility of human nature, but anyone that aspires to this is a moral failure.

      • YaReally
        on July 10, 2013 at 3:31 pm
        Original Link

        It comes down to taking value VS giving value. You can take value, and still be successful. Like you can be a dickhead CEO making your employees work on xmas and you’ll be productive and make money etc. But you can also be a CEO and treat your employees well and make them feel appreciated so they volunteer to work on xmas for you.

        The PUA community started out way early on focusing on taking value because we were like “holy shit, we can GET these girls, we can trick them into banging us…they have no idea we’re nerdy and lame and they want to fuck us hahaha take that bitches!!” lol

        But now we’ve evolved and we focus a lot more on teaching new guys to give value and spread good vibes instead…even tho the taking value totally worked, it wasn’t a “clean” win the way learning to just be a cool guy who spreads value to the people around him is.

        • Matthew King
          on July 11, 2013 at 11:33 am
          Original Link

          Again, rewarmed Karmic claptrap. It ultimately will not avail you.

          Don’t get me wrong, though. It’s better than nothing and will do for now. And it is an order of magnitude better than the teenage-goth PUA idea of worshiping the “dark” this or the “evil” that.

          Cf. CH’s latest:

          Good things will come from great evil. Sorry, gotta include that great evil. Otherwise I’d get bored with the good good good all the time.

          Except that one doesn’t get “bored with the good good good all the time” so much as one becomes intellectually and aesthetically exhausted from the banality of evil. Eventually, a mature individual discovers the double-edged nature of evil, and how much he has been mutilating himself all the years he thought he was being independent. But evil is the opposite of freedom — of course it calls itself “freedom”! — evil is the equivalent of addiction, the drunk who has given over his will to death, and sobriety is no longer an option, just suicide. Fast or slow suicide, same ultimate destination.

          In reality, the good is infinitely variable and endlessly replenishing, an exhilaration that cannot be matched. Evil is mundane. But our generation believes the opposite, that villains are jaunty and clever and having just so much fun!!! because we were raised by life-despising Hollywood rather than a plain old mother and father who loved them more than they loved themselves.

          Confirm thy soul in self-control,
          Thy liberty in law.
          O beautiful for heroes proved
          In liberating strife.
          Who more than self their country loved
          And mercy more than life.


          • Scray
            on July 11, 2013 at 3:54 pm
            Original Link

            ‘Except that one doesn’t get “bored with the good good good all the time”’

            I’m starting to agree with this virtue stuff more and more. I mean, it’s could be just chance….but, three times girls have specifically used the word ‘courageous’ in describing me. One of them seemed like she was facile enough with language to use that kind of word often. The others, however, were less bright — so I took it to mean they were being extra precise.

            Digging deeper, I interpreted what they said to mean that the act of approaching — with boldness and intent and strength — was impressive. Now, after that point, I fucked up more and more….so all they were left with was a fleeting impression of what could have been. However, that single impression bought a lot of air time. I’m unsure if I’m ready to say that five minutes of real virtue is worth……

            ….but, yeah it’s definitely interesting to think about. Can’t wait to fully get back out and cold approach next week.

  • Orin
    on July 10, 2013 at 5:27 pm
    Original Link

    You can’t deny results.

    Assuming the pictures from your profile are really you, and assuming you’re not a troll, acting like this is the only way to compete with your hypergamous instincts to desire an alpha male.

    I have no doubt that if I started giving you a disproportionate amount of dignity and respect at the expense of acting like “Nah-man” and “Skittles man,” you’d no doubt add me to the laundry list of beta orbiters you have at your disposal who will do your bidding on command and be grateful for simply getting a tiny amount of attention.

    Until you and the rest of your gender deny your biological instincts to accept and secretly desire being treated like this, I’m going to stick with what works.

    • Scray
      on July 10, 2013 at 5:46 pm
      Original Link

      This isn’t a result tho lol. it’s a mistake to say ‘o he must have value BECAUSE he used -nah- and was terse.’

      • cryo
        on July 10, 2013 at 6:26 pm
        Original Link

        Just because YOU can’t display value while being terse doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, Mr. Truth By Assertion. I pull nice ass with just a basic deployment of “indirect verbal, direct body language” and I hardly have to open my mouth.

        If you truly have “value” and aren’t just trying to front with mind games, it will come across in your demeanor, mannerisms, and even show in your eyes. Yes, you can’t just stand there like a statue and expect cunt to fall on your dick. But when you reach the state in which you have nothing to prove to anyone and are in touch with your core, the value is self-evident.

        • Scray
          on July 11, 2013 at 12:35 pm
          Original Link

          Ya ya ya… When I see someone in field not relying on looks/already established value to pull this ‘terse’ stuff off I’ll believe you.

          And I didn’t say display value…..I said HAVE value BECAUSE of the terseness. So all of that body language stuff you’re talking about =\= terseness.

          [CH: The general rule is that if you're speaking fewer words than the girl at all points across the seduction trajectory (except perhaps the very beginning when you have to capture her attention), you're doing it right.]

          • YaReally
            on July 11, 2013 at 3:06 pm
            Original Link

            “So I don’t see how what I’m saying is inconsistent with the general rule.”

            It’s not, there just a miscommunication because you’re looking deeper into the pickup than other guys (probably because you’re short so for you you HAVE to be aware of how building/displaying value works, whereas a good looking rich tall guy thinks he “just says hello”).

            ie – these guys are just looking at after she knows he’s high value (however he demonstrated that) and how it works at that point. You’re looking at “but he has to have established that value first somehow for this to work”.

            You can say literally nothing and get the girl…if, when you walk in, you walk in with 2 girls on your arm, shake hands with a manager, dominate your social circle of alpha males, etc. you could just hand her your phone and she’d put her number in, but you’ve established high value with all this other stuff.

            Can a homeless smelly old man carrying a bottle of booze just hand girls a phone and get their number? No. Well what if he just doesn’t say any words either? Still no. So you HAVE to conclude that it’s not the “talking less than her” that’s attractive…and that’s “establishing high value”. Convince the girl that the homeless guy is secretly a millionaire adventure badass playboy who’s just researching an acting role and he can get her number with one word.

            Scray is noticing this disconnect because as a short guy he starts at a deficit based on society’s standards, so he’s like the homeless guy (lol no offense dude). He knows Jumbotron game won’t work for him on a cold approach because she doesn’t know he’s high-value yet. So he demonstrates it with his attitude, body language, dressing good, dominating girls around him, etc. THEN he can do Jumbotron game if he wants to, but if he just creeps silently out of the shadows as a low value schlub, Jumbotron won’t work.

            Literally the article’s txt message is the equivalent to me of a guy bragging about how he totally banged his wife last night. Like, there’s no game in there, he clearly already has value to her.

on July 10, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Original Link

Disagree. This isn’t an example of tight game IMHROOKIEO. The dude already has sky high value, and so he can say (or not say) anything he wants. So….I mean, it’s an example of not fucking up sky high value I guess.

The real art is to both BUILD value and pass the jumbotron test simultaneously ==>

Her: who is this? (ya, means I have low value to her…starting at deficit)
Me: hopefully nxt guy u regret sleeping with. hai.
Her: lol wat is ur name
Me: will johnson ;)
Her: lmao dumbass
Me: u should be nice to will johnson
Her: is this that guy from weds? (value building……)
Me: ya…WILL JOHNSON ffs dummy
Her: that’s not what you said your name was!
Me: …..o shit. who is THIS?
Her: lmfao cant keep ur girls straight
Me: (later) hey tomorrow u should tag along at venue x
Her: i dont get off work til 9 if thats ok
Me: fuck u call in
Her: i cant lol pushy
Me: ok u tried ur best. see u then.

I’m not saying this is PERFECT or THE BEST. But what I’m saying is that it got me a successful day 2 with that 6.5 and required actual value building. Just my 2 cents.

  • YaReally
    on July 10, 2013 at 2:00 pm
    Original Link

    “Disagree. This isn’t an example of tight game IMHROOKIEO. The dude already has sky high value, and so he can say (or not say) anything he wants. So….I mean, it’s an example of not fucking up sky high value I guess.”

    This. Was coming here to post this. If he doesn’t already have high value to the girl, that style of txting won’t work. It will go like this:

    Him: “hey”
    Her: “hi”
    Him: “How goes”
    Her: “Good”
    Him: “Cool”
    (then she just stops txting…2 days later he tries again):

    Him: “we should hang out”
    Her: “I’m kind of busy this week”
    Him: “gay”
    (then silence, followed by NEXT’ing her and bragging that he totally ditched that bitch and showed her who’s boss because she’s a frigid lesbian)

    You have to establish higher value specifically to HER first (vs just objectively to society being higher value by having money looks etc, doesn’t mean shit, SHE has to view you as high value). There are a ton of ways to do that, in person, in the initial pickup, over txt/phone, on a Day 2, etc.

    Anyway here’s my obligatory counter-argument to the Jumbotron. Note that I actually like txting lol so literally *I* would be bored having these Jumbotron conversations.

    • Scray
      on July 10, 2013 at 2:31 pm
      Original Link

      lol I only say it because I’ve TRIED it in the wrong situs and it DOESN’T work without the value hahaha. I mean, as I resolve this ‘flake’ situation, I’m getting really into trying to supplement/add value through texts…and I’m finding that longer/more fun texts are better for that purpose.

      • Cragsleeper
        on July 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm
        Original Link

        ‘u tried ur best’. haha like that framing. I do longer texts generally. I texted a 7 for awhile using long but spaced out texts. She was doing the same thing. Seemed to work fine, got her out twice and she was saying things like ‘hope I didn’t bore you too much’ but I botched it on 2nd night when I kissed way too long and she actually was the one to finally pull away – just plain dumb of me lol. I knew better I’m just a horndog sometimes. Needless to say I couldn’t get her out again.

        • Scray
          on July 10, 2013 at 3:00 pm
          Original Link

          ‘Seemed to work fine, got her out twice and she was saying things like ‘hope I didn’t bore you too much’ but I botched it on 2nd night’

          So, I notice this too….and tbh I legit think that sometimes they are giving you a hint to be more fun and engaging. Like, sometimes they legit just think you have super skyhigh value — but if they aren’t ramming their tongues down your throat, it’s possible that the *hint hint* be cooler *hint hint* could be tru.

          ‘Needless to say I couldn’t get her out again.’

          The fuck you can’t bro. It’s never over. I have a friend who has built a life out of non-cold approach puss-getting. It’s a constant stream of online messaging, texting, social circle gatherings, etc. He’s gotten several girls to go out again after a botched date or flake or whatever months later….even when they haven’t responded to like 10 consecutive texts (spaced out by hours, then days, then weeks, accordingly). Granted, he’s always getting new leads and farming them too, but…you get the point lol

          • YaReally
            on July 10, 2013 at 3:23 pm
            Original Link

            “He’s gotten several girls to go out again after a botched date or flake or whatever months later….even when they haven’t responded to like 10 consecutive texts (spaced out by hours, then days, then weeks, accordingly). Granted, he’s always getting new leads and farming them too, but…you get the point lol”

            This, also. At 10:30 in this super old Tyler seminar:


            The key part is where he doesn’t get the girl but is like “a few weeks later I called her again to see if I could turn it around…months later when she’s deleted my number, she picks up”. And then he just controls the frame and acts like nothing happened and just assumes attraction/value and builds attraction again, then is like “how come we never hung out, i never got that, you should come over.” and pushes for the close again.

            Granted your situ might be different/awkard, like that girl could be married to your brother right now or some shit lol. But if she’s a random, you had enough attraction to get her out and make out, and your game has probably gotten better since then, so feel free to give it another go and see if you can turn it around. Basically just act as if nothing went wrong and you had just met her this weekend and she was a fresh start. As long as you can give her good emotions and spike them and get her attracted etc, she’ll forget all about how raging horny you were lol

Comment Of The Week: The Subtle Art Of The AMOG

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 7, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Original Link

If you’re getting AMOG’ed, or do the AMOGing, then you are completely lost. If you write multi-paragraphed treatments of how to live a life with AMOGs, you are most definitely doing it wrong. I have never been, nor ever been on the receiving end of, this fictional AMOG of which you speak. What reality are you living in? If you’re experiencing AMOGs, it’s because you’re putting forth that energy in your life. That energy is what you need to address, not the “AMOG.” Grow up.

Okay, for the noobs: this whole AMOG thing is a boogey man intended to keep you in the corral. AMOGs only exist for losers with over-active imaginations. Are other men competing with you for the genetically sound eggs of our species? Yes, they are. Does that make them AMOGs? No, it doesn’t. They are normal men living their lives, of which procuring genetically fit eggs is a part.

To elevate them to AMOG status is essentially a D&D self jerk. And to try to get other men to believe in the fiction of AMOGs to make you feel better about yourself, is just fucking low. [There’s a boogey man behind every corner, so follow me for your safety.]

With this post, we now see the MS beginning to retrograde. Comical.

  • YaReally
    on July 8, 2013 at 1:33 pm
    Original Link

    “If you’re getting AMOG’ed, or do the AMOGing, then you are completely lost.”

    No shit. This stuff is for guys who are learning game. The guys who are going out and are running into AMOGs and getting tooled BECAUSE they are lost and guys can tell they can fuck with them, because they don’t have the solid internals where guys don’t mess with them.

    When you train in martial arts, guys stop fucking with you physically because you carry yourself better and look like you’re not a guy to fuck with, so they pick on the scrawny nerd beside you and stuff him in a locker, because they know they can fuck with him.

    This advice is for the scrawny nerd. The guy who can handle himself doesn’t get fucked with as much, but if he does, he knows how to throw a punch.

    • avd
      on July 9, 2013 at 12:26 am
      Original Link

      Right here, read this. All of you little boys who follow YaReally, read THIS. Are you ready little boys? Here, read this. From his own mouth. Who are you following?

      No shit. This stuff is for guys who are learning game. The guys who are going out and are running into AMOGs and getting tooled BECAUSE they are lost and guys can tell they can fuck with them, because they don’t have the solid internals where guys don’t mess with them.

      • Scray
        on July 9, 2013 at 3:17 pm
        Original Link

        who knew, you don’t transform from loser into superbadasseveryoneknowsnottofuckwith in a snap.

on July 7, 2013 at 2:55 pm
Original Link

Don’t get it twisted though, i know many dudes in real life that would give you a instant slap round the face for that shit.

  • Matthew King
    on July 8, 2013 at 1:04 pm
    Original Link

    immoralgables wrote:

    No you don’t, and no they wouldn’t. Try again next week. – Everybody,

    No, not “everybody.” You are a group of self-reinforcing mythologizers, led around like puppies by

    Men do fight, and it’s not always out of insecurity, you post-masculine sell-out fairies. It’s fine that you hold your manhoods cheap — whatever. But this mythic superiority which you build up around your self-castration is risible. It’s to the point where you actively disbelieve in the possibility of men acting like men.

    I’ve seen boys rationalize away their cowardice, it’s almost understandable, especially in that “laugh[s] at honor.” But are you really such pussies that you have to make an entire ideology out of your back-down, chucklehead, sissy-runaway instinct?

    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.

    Moreover, it’s not about the fight so much as it is the ability to fight given the circumstance. Just as peace is negotiated through strength. Just as large militaries prevent war. Just as having access to firepower often obviates the need to use that firepower. That’s why Colt called its bestselling gun “The Peacemaker.” That guy looks like he can handle himself = fewer challenges to his authority. But when the spunky little-man syndrome boys do challenge his authority, he has to be able to back it up with something more than snarktastic rebuttals.

    I have never seen a group of “men” so spontaneously and systematically defend cowardice. It is positively puke-inducing. And if you think the sarcastic fleeing twerp is somehow attractive to women, then you’ve never in your lives truly confronted a man.


    • YaReally
      on July 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm
      Original Link

      “I have never seen a group of “men” so spontaneously and systematically defend cowardice.”

      Again, like I wrote to some other dude in another thread: your problem is that you think we care if you think we’re men or not. Like you believe you have this value and that when you say we’re fairies, sissies, pussies, cowards, blah blah blah, that we should be affected by that. Ultimately you’re simply socially conditioned into believing that men have to act a certain way to be considered men and it annoys you that none of us give a shit what you think.

      Here’s what I think when a guy wants to fight me over a girl in a bar: “I’ve just met this girl and barely know her or give a shit about her. I can meet 10 other girls who look just like her. This guy wants to cave my head in…maybe I can take him, maybe I can’t but either way I’m risking disfigurement, smacking my head on a stool if I go down, paralysis, lawsuits, jail-time, who knows I might accidentally kill him. On the plus side, some people I don’t know and will probably never see again will think I’m a “man”.

      Doing a quick little mathematical calculations on all this: Ya, I’mma walk away. You can have her bro. I’ll go to another bar now and talk to a girl who’s just as hot as her.”

      But you do what you like…you’re in your basement talking big about manliness from your armchair anyway, so it doesn’t really matter lol

      • Matthew King
        on July 8, 2013 at 2:23 pm
        Original Link

        … your problem is that you think we care if you think we’re men or not.

        Oh. No. I am quite sure you don’t care. You have all loudly confessed as much.

        • Scray
          on July 8, 2013 at 2:57 pm
          Original Link

          Well….my only question would be this: isn’t violence, esp in a public place, a man’s last recourse when he’s lost all other power? For example, if a low-value fuckwit were giving you a hard time….who cares? If the group believes he’s low-value, there’s no threat.

          But, when some high-value jerk comes over and tools you, then the group starts laughing at you. You try to nonreact/engage in banter to no avail. Then, when you’ve exhausted your options and been beaten on every possible level….you retaliate with violence.

          In a lot of ways, violence is the ultimate expression of powerlessness. You so desperately want the other person to react and acknowledge/validate you that you will literally beat it out of them.

          • YaReally
            on July 8, 2013 at 5:37 pm
            Original Link

            Scray is right. The guys who turn to violence are either unhinged legit psychos (like the weird homeless guy who stumbled into the bar and is drinking in a corner) or they’re guys who don’t have any better way to “win” so they resort to violence because they’re powerless and it’s the easiest way to vent that powerlessness and try to take power back.

            No, I don’t fight. I don’t have to. But I hang with guys who DO fight, regularly (in the ring and on the streets/bars, some of them literally believe that a night out drinkin should end in either fucking or fighting and pick fights if they don’t get laid), who are a lot tougher than half the eBadasses here, and the pattern is very blatant.

            This is also why a lot of good fighters don’t get into fights, because they know some bar brawl with a loser talking shit is beneath them.

            Matt and Greg live in a fantasy world.


            If you’re resorting to violence over what a man says to you, it’s because you hold his opinion higher than your own.

            And if you’re resorting to violence over a woman, it’s because you know you can’t go down the street and get another one just as good or better.

            Both of those come from insecurity and scarcity.

on July 7, 2013 at 3:50 pm
Original Link

Now to connect two seemingly distant dots:

YaReally proves why the USA can not and will not have a resurgence in manufacturing jobs (or any skilled job) for the immediate future.

No one will willingly pursue a job that requires years of investment when all it takes is a little frame control to tarnish it.

In the land of Protestant work ethic, the PUA is king. And in the land of feminism, men will not reappear.

What is worse: being a five year old and being made fun of for wearing red shoes? Or being 35 years old and being made fun of by another man for investing twenty years in personal achievement?

I hope Rooshvers and Return of King readers recognize that the advocacy of this post is not hitting the gym and working hard.

  • cryo
    on July 7, 2013 at 5:31 pm
    Original Link

    I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say here. That all male endeavors outside of pussy hounding will be rendered extinct?
    Believe it or not, there are achievements to be had in life that are far more rewarding than laying a harlot. The men with inspiration and drive will never be satisfied with a life of meaningless caddish behavior.

    • Matthew King
      on July 8, 2013 at 1:35 pm
      Original Link

      … there are achievements to be had in life that are far more rewarding than laying a harlot.

      Well said, but WRONG WEBSITE, brother. Even hinting at this possibility makes you an omega to the pua-pod-people.

      • YaReally
        on July 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm
        Original Link

        One day I’ll just link a fuckton of videos from PUAs in every company where they’re all saying to work on your health, career, have goals, etc. in response to you posting stupid shit like this.

        You’ve been here for like 5 years. In that time you still haven’t done any kind of research into the subject you rant and rave about. It’s like you’re proud of being ignorant.

        • Grit
          on July 13, 2013 at 12:47 pm
          Original Link

          See Scray’s Maslow post below.

          Maslow puts sex as a base need, but so many men pedestalize it.

          I am super curious what PUAs think about legalized prostitution. If sex is part of the journey and not the ultimate destination, then they should have no problem with legal prostitution.

          Legal prostitution would also mothball AMOG tactics to an extent. Who cares how skilled you are at delivering or reframing ‘bro backslaps’ when you can plunk down a twenty and get laid with a hotter chick.


          If the PUA subconsciouly knows that the reaaal ugly truth that sex IS the male destination, that that means they are secretly pedestalizing sex and specifically ignoring that men pursue crafts and skills to attract women for sex.

          The wool has been pulled over all of our eyes anyway, since modern women have had as much sex or more than prostitutes, but are still clean doves in the eyes of an economy that subsidizes sluts.

          • Scray
            on July 13, 2013 at 3:31 pm
            Original Link

            It’s more than just sex. It’s love and belonging. Whores don’t bring anyone that.

  • Scray
    on July 7, 2013 at 6:41 pm
    Original Link

    ‘No one will willingly pursue a job that requires years of investment when all it takes is a little frame control to tarnish it.’

    You mean people will actually have to learn to internally deal with adversity and follow their own path? No, anything but that.

    Ever since I’ve started working out, people have given me shit for it —-especially in the last two or three months because I’ve gotten insanely strict about my diet. Now that my face is starting to change — losing that bodyfat — I get more bullshit. And ya, I’ll get weird looks or someone trying to tool me when I order a salad at a restaurant. At first, it had the desired effect — blah blah qualify, blah blah.

    But I mean….one day it just clicked. lol….how the fuck could getting fit EVER be a bad thing? In WHAT world? lol. So ya, now if someone wants to make a fuss ‘o man ordering a salad in a restaurant…whaaaaaaat…lol, wow dude’ I just kind of shrug ‘hey, sometimes it’s lonely at the top, dudebros’ and leave it at that — no fucks beyond are given. They’ll try to keep needling you at first….but the best response is to just smile silently while they laugh, joke, ask you questions — it’s always ‘let me ask you this…..(some stupid bullshit trap question, the answering of which means you are qualifying)’….to which I just smile…’I'm glad you’re so curious about it. There’s a lot of info online.’ As if he’s your biggest fan.

    So ya, now apply that to the other shit — a career that you’ve built up for decades, a nice car, a nice watch, etc. In WHAT world can those possibly be bad? When you let a guy tool you, you’re saying ‘I don’t really deserve all of these nice things I have.’ When you just act like he’s a fan, you say ‘ya, I’m awesome THEREFORE I have all of these nice things.’ They can only be reframed if your frame about them is weak.

    I mean, sometimes there are AMOGs who are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY good at what they do, and they’ll get under your skin…but you know….that adversity builds you.

    • YaReally
      on July 8, 2013 at 2:46 pm
      Original Link

      “And ya, I’ll get weird looks or someone trying to tool me when I order a salad at a restaurant. At first, it had the desired effect — blah blah qualify, blah blah.

      But I mean….one day it just clicked. lol….how the fuck could getting fit EVER be a bad thing? In WHAT world? lol. So ya, now if someone wants to make a fuss ‘o man ordering a salad in a restaurant…whaaaaaaat…lol, wow dude’ I just kind of shrug ‘hey, sometimes it’s lonely at the top, dudebros’ and leave it at that — no fucks beyond are given.”

      This. Solid. Very solid. You’ve come a retardedly long way from your first posts where you’d get butt-hurt over people giving you shit. But you earned it because you’ve put in all the work to earn it. Good stuff dude.

      And yes, this basically describes it…one day the switch flips (sometimes it flips back depending on the environment and circumstances etc. and you have to keep flipping it again until it learns to stay flipped in those situs), and you just let go and realize that reacting is dumb and that literally the notion of determining your worth based on other people’s opinion of you is silly. It actually becomes a ridiculous notion to you, that anyone could make fun of your salad and expect you to take that seriously.

      This extrapolates to a ton of areas of game.

      • Scray
        on July 9, 2013 at 3:34 pm
        Original Link

        Ha, thanks man. After the 30 day I’ve actually been trying to take a break from cold approaching, but now I just do it lol. Altho, it’s kind of shitty in that….I’m kind of getting obsessed — I’m starting to put other stuff on the backburner. There’s just so much out there to see and do. That happen to you?

on July 7, 2013 at 4:21 pm
Original Link

Interesting Observations from a weekend for the 4th of July:

We went out to this megabar in one of the nicer towns. It was me, my roommate and five of his fraternity brothers. This was one of the better frats at a large state school and based off my observations and the demeanor in which they carry themselves, I have no reason to think that they were losers at college or didn’t pull and hang around a lot of cute girls.

But check this out.

We were standing at this bar and the ratio was probably moreso in our favor. We were in a diff town than the one we lived in, were only there for a weekend and were all a little buzzed. Guess who did most if not all of the approaching?

At first of all us stood there and at this point I had really gotten into my head and was worried about getting rejected in front of my roommate and his buddies. Illogical fear that consumes you to the point where I had to first start-off by making small-talk in the smoking section and with an old man at the bar while I was ordering a drink. I knew the trouble that being socially rusty can cause so I spent 20 minutes warming up.

We decide to go downstairs where the action was at with me leading the crew.

1) First two-set HB6s arguing over something. I interrupt and ask them if they seem okay. I say it again and slowly, and at this point they’re intrigued because what could possibly be wrong. I tell them I’m asking because they seemed to not be getting enough male attention and I wanted to make sure they were alright. They laughed and responded and there was this brief window where I could have took the set and ran with it some more but I wasn’t mentally there yet.

2) Two-set but this time one is an hb6 and one an hb7. I come up and use the same line and they immediately smile and open and we chat for about three minutes and I’m running my usual routines. One lives a couple blocks away in NYC and the HB7 lives further downtown. “Oh what a shame, we wouldn’t workout…I don’t do long distance.” I then introduce them to my roommate but literally had to drag him to them as he was worried what his frat buddies would think. I would stop talking and the HB7 would engage me with her style of banter and there were a ton of IOIs. I’d go to get a water and when I come back they were happy to see me and I’d apologize for hurting them and leaving them (saying this sarcastically). I def missed a moment to escalate and/or get a number from both of them as I was still trying to chat everyone up.

3) This tall HB8.5 brunette walks through the room and eyes turn on her. My roommate makes a comment on how hot she is and he pivots himself accordingly to approach. He hesitates a second too long and as she almost walks by I grab her by the elbow and stop her. “Excuse me, this is totally random but you look just…like…my future ex-girlfriend.” She moves a step away then leans back in laughing with this huge smile. She asks me what i said and I repeat myself and at this point my brain was in full-retard mode.
I didn’t know what to say next as I didn’t expect this to go that far and my roomie was in shock too. She knew it as well but as she walked away she looked back and mouthed “bye” and there was the briefest window where she WANTED me to back it up with something more than the opener. It’s still a mind-fuck to me that it worked but mind you, I’m 5’8 and she was pushing 5’11. How many guys like me opened direct? Hmmm, the more “off the radar” you are with certain girls (let’s say HB8s and up), the more receptive they can be to you because it’s almost as-if value is assumed from the get-go. You have to have something going on if you approach directly like that. I’ve noticed this pattern from going out and from the ~5 positive interactions I’ve had from approaching about HB8+ directly.

Props to commenter “PimpinBlueStar” from this quote I’m stealing:

“The simple act of approaching a hot girl, not trying to show out or need anythign from her and just being totally self accepting that you are enough for her as is — this may be the highest value thing that one can do for themselves.”

The rest of the time at this venue I was opening sets, high-fiving girls when they took shots, coming back to mixed groups I had opened and just being social. Guess what the frat-stars were doing. I’m not hating on them though, all cool guys and I’m sure they were just trying to catch up and hang-out like normal social dudes.

The grand finale came at the end. There was this really cute, tan HB7 Asian standing in a 5-set of girls all HB6s and above. I could tell who the Queen Bee Alpha-chick was and as my roommate discussed how to approach the Asian, I told him to befriend the group first. I had no idea how-to but thought of some YaReally shit I’ve read in the past.

I opened the two least attractive ones closest to me indirectly and used some chick-bait about how them and there friends seemed like alpha girls and that they were probably mean if need be. The girls got what I was saying and then one of them deferred the “Alpha Chick” title to the girl who I thought was the Queen Bee. I told her to introduce and the Queen Bee was pretty incredible to try to tame. I talked to her at first using some cocky/funny but also alluding to how her friends told me that she was the Alpha Girl of the group and she totally ate it up.

The frat buddies were all watching this go down and I felt like the stakes were high. The Queen Bee (with her back-turned to her group) rattled off the names of the girls in the group and immediately I stepped to each girl (as they were standing in a circle) and called them by their names. One-by-one, as I said their names, their eyes lit up and they went buck-wild when I got one of them wrong at the end (4/5 ain’t bad). Still, I displayed some kind of social dominance and I made sure to high-five the girl whose name I slightly messed up.
The alpha-chick and I continue to talk and she starts qualifying me hard-core. I didn’t want to go into dancing monkey mode so I gave some serious answers in regards to where I live. When she asks age, I tell her to guess and if she gets it right she gets a kiss. She guesses it right and I playfully pull her in but she rebuffs me. I’d say 50% because in front of her friends and 50% because not enough comfort(?)/attraction(?). It really didn’t matter and if anything I think it helped.

But at one point I cut her off and tell her how it’s funny that it seems like she was conducting an interview. Her eyes lit up and she told me she likes to know if certain guys are with it or not. I just stop and stare at her and she busts out laughing, as if she couldn’t believe her own bs. From there, I tell her that her friends and my friends should meet-up later and I go to push for the number close.

Weird: As I’m number closing she tells me that she should take my number and she’ll decide if she’ll call me. I just stare at her blankly and she busts out laughing again like she couldn’t believe her own bullshit. Fellas, I’ve heard the “Hm, no, but let me take your number down line” and I know it doesn’t lead to anywhere positive. It’s either that by me being non-reactive and just staring, it tore down that wall of hers or she was kidding off the get-go. Interesting enough.

I take her number down, her friends had stepped to the other side of the bar and she goes to meet but I pull her in for a hug and some kino. No it wasn’t a “I’m trying to fuck you vibe” but she def was attracted and I was able to score a number of the Alpha Girl of the group, with the option to meet her and her 5 friends later if it panned out. It was very good vibes though as I left the venue and said bye to her. It was incredible.

I did this while the guys I came with stood in the corner, beers chest-high and joked among themselves.

One thing I notice, when you go out with people who are aware of how you try to pick up girls, you tend to not pick-up girls. You get inside your head, you have this identity you want to protect, and you’ll be damned if you put yourself on the line, get rejected and see that identity crumble to pieces.

I felt like the same thing was going on with the frat buddies. They didn’t want to take the first step. The same thing happens when I go out with guys in the NYC Lair, we have these personas we built up that we don’t want to damage. Realizing that made me push and become social at that bar this weekend.

  • YaReally
    on July 8, 2013 at 3:05 pm
    Original Link

    “I felt like the same thing was going on with the frat buddies. They didn’t want to take the first step.”

    You’ll find that a lot of Natural alphas won’t cold approach, but will HAPPILY jump in when YOU cold approach and try to take over your set and block you out with their body-language and keep the girl’s attention from you etc. lol I call this Vulture Game. It’s annoying but it’s funny because the underlying reason for it is that they’re too chickenshit to approach.

    “The same thing happens when I go out with guys in the NYC Lair, we have these personas we built up that we don’t want to damage. Realizing that made me push and become social at that bar this weekend.”

    Good. Perfect. This is the lesson to take away from this and this is an important lesson to always remind yourself. I actually go out with the intention of making an ass out of myself first because I know it’ll put me in a good headspace and it’ll give my group permission to risk getting shot down themselves because “hey, it can’t be as bad as YaReally lol”. It makes for a better night for everyone.

    I’ll break down your FR in more detail this week when I do Scray and Hunters, there’s a lot of cool little dynamics going on.

    You did great, good job on that all-girl set…I used to actually focus on those sets because I would go out solo a lot and I could build quick social proof by approaching and working a bachelorette party or birthday party…it meant I was regularly diving into 5-10+ sets of girls at the start of the night stone cold sober, but I learned a lot about how to work those groups (same way you did, figure out the leader and charm her so she allows you access to her girls). Even if I don’t bang any of the girls out of that group (which often is too hard to do because they don’t want to be slutty in front of their judgemental friends by going home with a guy etc.), all the guys in the bar think I’m a boss and all the girls are turned on and wondering who I am that I could rock a group like that…plus I walk out of it in an unstoppable state.

    AND the girls themselves have fun because I was the only guy who’d approach them sober, fun, charming, ballsy, spiking their emotions, teasing them, etc. that early in the night. I basically get their night started. So it’s win/win/win for everyone. This is spreading value. :)

    • Scray
      on July 10, 2013 at 11:29 am
      Original Link

      ‘You’ll find that a lot of Natural alphas won’t cold approach, but will HAPPILY jump in when YOU cold approach and try to take over your set and block you out with their body-language and keep the girl’s attention from you etc. lol I call this Vulture Game. It’s annoying but it’s funny because the underlying reason for it is that they’re too chickenshit to approach.’

      Ehermeged srs.

on July 7, 2013 at 4:31 pm
Original Link

Your top commenter thinks too much about this. Therefore I think he is a homo.

  • itsme
    on July 8, 2013 at 9:54 am
    Original Link

    nah, i think it’s more like he runs into amogs so often that he already knows what responses work well with them. he doesn’t have to ‘think too much’ about it, any more than you have to ‘think too much’ about breathing in and out.

    • YaReally
      on July 8, 2013 at 3:08 pm
      Original Link

      4 stages of learning shit:

      1) unconscious incompetance
      2) conscious incompetance
      3) conscious competence
      4) unconscious competence

      I’m at stage 4 with this. But I started at stage 1 lol

      Michael Jordan didn’t just know how to shoot a basketball…he learned it step by step, put in hours of practice, learned all the little dynamics that the half-assing-it guys don’t figure out, put in more hours of practice, and then when he was playing for the Bulls he just “knew” how to shoot it and didn’t have to think of any of that.

      Exact same shit. But go ahead and make fun of Michael lol

      • Matthew King
        on July 8, 2013 at 3:16 pm
        Original Link

        Does not jibe with “Be happy now.”

        If you want to teach the kiddies, you need to think through your platitudes to the end. You have no idea when you’re giving contradictory counsel.

        But that would require you to let go of the fantasy that you’re “at stage 4 with this … lol.” So you are trapped in the spin cycle of your own intellectual vapidity.

        • YaReally
          on July 8, 2013 at 5:01 pm
          Original Link

          How does it not jibe?

          Do you think Michael didn’t enjoy shooting basketballs or enjoy learning to or enjoy playing when he was a kid? You should enjoy the journey, not just the end result.

          • Scray
            on July 9, 2013 at 12:45 pm
            Original Link

            ‘Happiness requires satisfaction, and satisfaction is the antonym of motivation.’

            You learn to derive pleasure from taking massive action to improve your life — from the fact that you are being productive with your time. Satisfaction with newfound efficiency. So yeah, you are still unsatisfied with whatever end goal you have in sight, but you find new satisfaction through the mere act of trying to satisfy yourself — a stop-gap until the real “satisfaction” starts to set in.

            I believe we all agree that learning game — just like any other skill — requires some serious fortitude (and ya, I’m mostly talking about the non-AI, non social circle, cold hard approach).

on July 7, 2013 at 5:31 pm
Original Link

The question then becomes: how DO you properly tool a theoretical YaReally right back?

I’m thinking something along the lines of: “wow man, you really put a lot of thought and imagination into my physique, workout regiment and diet. that’s pretty weird. do you always notice/compliment other dudes on their physique? strange.”

  • YaReally
    on July 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm
    Original Link

    “The question then becomes: how DO you properly tool a theoretical YaReally right back?”

    Can’t tell you that, or I’ll never get laid! …lol.

    But ya, Scray’s post on it is solid, so is the other guy here who was like “just say Thanks man!” (tho I replied to that about why that might not be enough in bar/club situations)

    I actually wrote about how to defend against my shit way back but fuck me if I can find it in my giant-ass archive lol.

    The jist is just don’t react butt-hurt, kill me with kindness, and try to get me to react butt-hurt to you.

    “wow man, you really put a lot of thought and imagination into my physique, workout regiment and diet. that’s pretty weird. do you always notice/compliment other dudes on their physique? strange.”

    lol this would throw a lot of guys off so it’s solid because you’re turning the frame around and playing off their insecurity of worrying that people will judge them as being gay, so a lot of them will qualify themselves like “what? no man, I’m no fag I just–” and now they’re reacting to you. This is where you’d grab the girls’ attention and walk off with them…they’ll come with you because you have the value. So good stuff for the average AMOG.

    But it wouldn’t work on me, because this is actually a good example of what the article is talking about…you’re applying value to “not risking people thinking I’m gay” and using that to make me feel insecure, because you assume I put the same value on “not risking people thinking I’m gay” (like the guy I just described). But I don’t put value on that because I don’t care what people think, and on top of that, by feeding me that line you just inadvertently TOLD me what you put value on because you thought I would put value on it too…so in a way, you gave me the key to “defeating” you because I have ZERO investment in “not risking people thinking I’m gay” but for you to bring that up to use against me at ALL means that you likely have greater-than-zero investment in that.

    Ergo, it would look something like this:

    You: “wow man, you really put a lot of thought and imagination into my physique, workout regiment and diet. that’s pretty weird. do you always notice/compliment other dudes on their physique? strange.”

    Me: “Only when I want to suck their cock. I mean, not in a GAY way, just a little tongue action. This chick (point to one of the girls we’re fighting over) is thinking the same thing, I can tell. (she laughs because she probably was thinking that at some point lol) God, why are you such a pervert, girl? (as I wrap an arm around her waist and get in her space and turn her body away from you so her back is to you) How many cocks have you sucked tonight? How many! I bet it’s at LEAST 10.”

    You: (fade into the background and watch me make out with this girl, and settle for her uglier friend if I don’t walk them both away from you)

    All I’m doing here is taking what you fed me, using “agree & amplify” to take it back up over the top past the point you’re comfortable with (because again you told me that not risking seeming gay was a weak spot for you), and then when you’re stunned for a split second by the fact that someone would actually SAY something like that (because who the fuck says that? lol), I switch focus to the girls, pump their emotions, and get them away from you while I’m the center of attention and you’re left in my dust.

    For you to counter THAT would be pretty tough, because you would have to start by even getting the attention back on you again and I won’t let that happen…so you would need some SERIOUSLY tight game or some massively high default value to take them back, and even then it would be an epic battle between us because my internals are solid and I’ve done this kind of thing a lot.

    On the flip side, remember that I’m only saying the “you order salad at a restaurant” stuff because you came into my set and tried to take my girls, which is a hostile move to me and earns that. So if instead of trying to tool me AGAIN, you instead realized you were playing with fire and backed off and was just like “lol thanks man, either way these girls are lucky they’ve clearly met the two best looking guys in the bar”, I’d read that you’re making peace and being a cool guy and I’d drop back down into friendly mode too, and talk you up to the girls and you and I would take those girls home together and high-five over the breakfast they cook us and probably become good buddies that go pick up chicks together.

    If a guy is cool by default, and I’m entering HIS set, I’m just friendly and fun and spread value to him. Or even if a guy enters my set, but he’s cool about it and seems like a nice dude and he’s not specifically trying to go for the girl I’m after, or like if he backs off that girl when he realizes I had dibs, then hey, that’s cool, I’ll build up his value to the girls and we’ll all have a blast.

    You only use this stuff when it’s necessary, and you only use as much as you need to to stop the other guy’s shit behavior. It’s more self-defense than aggressive attacking.

    I always look at it like I’d rather everyone just has a good fun time together and we all have value…but if YOU want to turn it into a fight, we can do that, and I’ll fire a warning shot to let you know you bit off more than you can chew, and if you back off cool we’re all good again, but if you keep fighting, we can do that, and I WILL win, but I’d rather we didn’t get into that at all because c’mon, let’s all just have fun and bang some bitches lol

    The reason I have a lot of experience with guys trying this on me is because if you look at me I don’t appear to have any real objective value. I’m not a hideous freak or anything, but I’m average height, average looks, average body, average clothes (I don’t peacock), average job, etc. I actually have to work extra hard to get bouncers to remember me because I look like every other random Joe.

    On top of that, I go to all sorts of venues where I don’t “belong”. High-class places with women dressed to the nines and guys in suits, shit-hole rocker bars where everyone’s tattooed up and hardcore, college bars where everyone’s younger than me, country bars where I’m clearly the only city-boy and not as manly as them, etc.

    So when the guys in these venues see me talking to girls, by default they think that I’m going to be easy to take the girls from and they roll up real confident that they’re going to just steamroll me because I mean, they have an Armani suit and she’s dressed to the nines, of course she’s looking for a rich doctor like him…or they used to ride bulls and I don’t even have callouses on my hands, of course that girl is going to want a REAL man like them, etc. etc.

    So they try to tool me as they enter the set and I fire off a warning shot to let them know that my looks are deceiving. Some of them recognize that and back off and it’s all good from there. But a lot of them are cocky and develop egos and can’t stand the thought of a plain average guy like me coming into “their” territory and getting “their” girls, especially “winning” the girls FROM them…so they try to go head to head with me, but they are just wholly unequipped to deal with what I’m throwing out there.

    I’m not the best, I just THOROUGHLY understand these dynamics and I’ve been forced to gain a lot of experience manipulating them, compared to most people.

    But remember, allllllllllll of this was learned. Consciously. Through years of going out and approaching sets. I started out as a complete nerd with no social skills.

    • Scray
      on July 9, 2013 at 3:15 pm
      Original Link

      ugh. i hate when that happens. that’s the next AMOG issue I need to sort out. some dude comes in, tosses 9 sticks of dynamite in the shit, and then the girl turns her head away from me.

      it’s like ‘lol….well shit, it seems like im phucked no matter what now. if i say something to him, it seems like im trying to get his attention, and if i say something to her, it calls attention to the fact that i need to get her attention again….’

      • YaReally
        on July 9, 2013 at 11:31 pm
        Original Link

        Ya it’s a bitch and that’s the point of it, is it puts the other guy in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position.

        As far as a solution goes it’s a lot like “what’s the best way to escape a headlock?” “Don’t let yourself end up in one in the first place” lol.

        Like if you HAD to, you could throw some hail Mary’s out. Stuff like opening a set of girls right beside them and running massive chick crack material on them so they all burst out laughing and your previous girls notice this. You could try merging a set in via the friend the dynamite guy isn’t talking to, forcing an interrupt. You could stealth AMOG the guy to the friend (check my archives for details on this) by talking to the friend off to the side and getting her laughing and attracted then dropping an “it’s too bad your friend is stuck talking to that creepy guy, he hit on my friends last week…I’m sure he’s a nice enough dude but I dunno, I was having fun talking to Sarah…not many girls can make me laugh like that.” and lowering his value while raising yours and instigating her cockblocking him for you because she doesn’t want Sarah to miss out on a high-value guy etc. If your vibe is right for it, you could even forcefully bring her back to you. I’ve literally just gone “HEY.” and turned the girl to me then bent down and picked her up over my shoulder and walked off, but this is something you have to do instantly when you realize buddy is a threat, before she’s more attracted to him than you, and then get her away from him and facing away from him and spike her temp so she forgets about him. There’s also letting him build her buying temp up, then coming in and stealing her while her temp is high which is more for drunk horny girls after midnight but is totally do-able…she transfers her buying temp onto you from him. Tyler has an old article about this somewhere.

        But these are all hail-Mary’s and rolling the dice.

        IDEALLY what you want to do is be more aware of your surroundings and avoid this situation entirely, like the headlock. Learn to spot when guys are going to approach, and learn to deduce quickly how much game they have, lead your girls to another part of the bar before the guy even gets to your group, win the friends over in advance so they’ll help you cockblock, have good wingmen who can interrupt and keep the other guy busy for you, etc.

        This will come with field experience but it’s the same Reticular Activation System concept as bouncers/cops develop where they can tell which guys in a bar are angry and which can fight and which to keep an eye on etc. You’re just tuning your RAS to game related things.

        A lot of guys have talked smack about oh just be cool and no one will mess with you bro and oh this AMOG thing is for pussied blah blah and oh just don’t do anything only pussies react like that.

        The reality is: if you aren’t dealing with AMOGs then you aren’t cold-approaching the hottest girls in the bar. No, you’re not getting AMOGed when you pick up that 6/10 social circle girl that has a crush on you and has already told her friends she likes you. Way to go champ, you’re batting a thousand.

        But some of us are going for the top shelf pussy and the other guys who think they have dibs on that top shelf will try to mark their territory, ESPECIALLY if you’re cold-approaching and not from their social circle…you can stand there like James Bond on a warm approach in a low energy environment, but in a fun chaotic energy-filled club/bar, your top shelf girl is walking away with the shinier object because she has a dozen James Bonds chasing her everywhere she goes and you don’t stand out.

on July 8, 2013 at 11:08 am
Original Link

I suck at verbal warfare and it needs patching up b/c it’s tougher to fight an AMOG’s attacks off when I can’t come up with witty retorts on the spot. It’s not just those scenarios though; sometimes a guy just starts tooling out of the blue. I do try to keep YaReally’s sound advice in mind about how that’s usually just normal bro talk and shouldn’t be taken seriously but when I get ripped on with a good jab and the group’s having a laugh I lose ground when I can’t reply on the spot with something clever. Obviously any women witnessing me get tooled like that write me off but the worst part is that now the guys see I’m an easy mark it starts to avalanche. I’ve experienced it multiple times and I’m trying to learn from the abuse instead of hiding like I used to. I at least don’t respond with butthurt comments or with beta body language anymore but nothing substitutes for having a comeback ready after being ripped in front of the group. There’s that old poker saying about how there’s a sucker at every table and if you can’t spot them it’s you – well, in the past that’s usually me in social circles and I even had to abandon a group of guys I’d known for over five years because I was the punching bag of the group and didn’t have the skills to reverse that dynamic. I know that was running away but I feel like if I’m going to change I need to cut out those people who are going to hold me back. Besides, in hindsight I really did make a lot of socially retarded mistakes with them that I don’t think I’d ever overcome.

I should probably mention I used to pull really attractive g/f’s in high school/college back when it was effortless. I’d learn from others a pretty girl liked me, I’d then talk some to them and next thing I know we’re banging. I had to just be running on looks and luck b/c I was a video game-obsessed introvert with no social skills whatsoever. Looking back my only advantage was that since I found most women and conversation boring in general I never presented a supplicating/beta worship vibe. I was anti-social but also that quiet guy in the back of the classroom that only a few knew had been with many of the more desirable women on campus. Therefore I was thoroughly unprepared for my love life turning on its head post college. I am still a decently good looking guy, not balding or anything yet not that it would matter much, athletic build, dress well, bathe lol etc. so except for maybe presenting too clean cut an appearance I don’t think I’m doing anything to draw negative attention other than what I must be saying. After all while my body language is a work in progress I’ve been following what is taught here. I don’t lean in, I cut out that nervous leg bounce i used to do, I look people in the eyes more, etc. The results have been noticeable, I mean this stuff is for real lol.

I still struggle and an example of a specific remark I’ve encountered multiple times including recently (usually a girl does this though) is to say “I could say something here, but I won’t” while casting an obnoxious sidelong glance to the others. I haven’t nailed down the perfect response to that, any help? What I can come up with either sounds butthurt or too defensive/qualifying. What I’ve tried on the spot is smiling and trying to look amused saying something to the effect of “I’m a big boy I can take it” etc to try and get them to say the comment but they just keep playing like they’re doing me a favor by not deploying this super huge bomb on me lol which is brilliant in a way b/c they probably don’t have such a witty comment in mind to begin with but are tooling me anyways as if they did.

I’ve also had guys make the fool out of me with a good remark and then suddenly slap me on the back and say “I’m just messing with ya” which makes me think I must be showing some sort of butthurt with my body language, only I seriously don’t think I am anymore. I wish I could have someone film me but the only error I’m seeing is I’m stalling trying to come up with a reply and maybe they see I’m tongue-tied and are pulling that finishing move of sorts to go ahead and basically announce their victory to everyone in earshot. What should I be doing there?

I still feel like it’s a minefield out there b/c I’m just out trying to meet some people and try to have fun, working my way up to having women in my social circle again like old times but I never know when I’m suddenly going to be ambushed like that. I’ve come a long way on internal frame and not letting others define my self-view (YaReally commented on this well) and I honestly don’t think I’m showing a response anymore when people come at me, but I can be rock solid internally and the others still see me as a tool when I can’t keep up with the banter.

Now that I’ve typed this out I’m thinking all I really need is just more calibration out in the field taking my lumps until I can get this skill set down. I wasted my twenties with a negative mindset basically hating most people due to racking up shitty social experiences (including the post I made about one that YaReally was responding to) without anything to counterbalance them. It has to be me at fault, I realize that as I’m the only thing in common with all those experiences. My mindset then was that since it was only the undesirable women approaching me anymore it now must be the best I could do and since I didn’t want that for myself (Once you’ve had steak…) I retreated to the usual omega vices. I know now how flawed and self-defeating I had been; I wasted almost a decade of youth.

Anyways this has been way too much talking about myself and I’d never do that in a conversation lol just seeking assistance from those wiser than myself on these matters.

TL;DR I’m working on getting out more but keep getting tooled by guys when I can’t keep up with the repartee.

  • Matthew King
    on July 8, 2013 at 12:38 pm
    Original Link

    You are going too directly at the problem when you should be adopting a more Zen Buddhist frame of mind. This is one of the hardest difficulties to overcome because it is also the greatest virtue of white men. We have a nerdlord ability to hyperfocus on an issue and clamp down on the bone like a pit bull until it yields. But in this circumstance you must let go of your grip, and only in letting it go will it yield. That is the most efficient way to thrive amid the fluid estrogen culture you are attempting to (literally and figuratively) penetrate.

    YaReally himself is a probably unmatchable exemplar of the hyperfocus culture: cover every contingency, overwhelm with volume, leave no stone unturned, flood the space with options. An infinite if-then flow chart. If A then B, and if not B, then try C, D, E, F, and G. And while you’re trying C through G, think of H, I, J, K, elemenopea.

    See, you care about being AMOGged, and Mr. Amog knows you care, and the girls know you care, and you know that they know that you know that they know you care. It’s a vicious cycle that, as advised in the original post, should be diffused at step one: stop giving a shit, even if it takes a mental exercise of lying to yourself. Hence the worship of the Aloof above the virtuous on this site.

    Except, as other commenters note, this tactic makes a mockery of actually improving oneself. You can be fat rather than ripped because you can easily fool bimbos with an imitation of confidence that should accompany the outwardly healthy looking man. Except that confidence doesn’t work that way — the skinniest girls think they’re fat, the bodybuilders are often insecure, and the actor can transcend them all by putting on a display of self-assurance.

    By your own report, you seem to have enough virtues to make a go of it, if only you could find the right attitude.

    There is a third way above both beta insecurity and alpha mimicry, which is to acquire virtue and derive your confidence from actual assets, rather than doing the mental gymnastics of acting “as if.” YaReally faked it long enough until he developed a real asset (PUA skills), and he derives confidence effortlessly from a memory of results. But those skills are now real and not any longer the fake pose he advises insecure men to adopt, because it worked for him.

    CH rather puts it, Make your mission paramount, not women. The rest will follow. You are too focused on adopting tricks to thrive despite a pot belly (or whatever insecurity you may have), rather than adopting virtues and the confidence that should coincide with those virtues.

    But all things equal, if you can only have one, the (fake) confidence is more useful than the virtue because confidence more directly speaks to women than do the traits themselves. You are essentially daring her to make an issue of the incongruity between her eyes and your lies, which women rarely have the moxie to do. Especially when you are focused exclusively on short-term rewards. Over the long term, she becomes aware of the unsupported confidence, and so by that time the PUA recommends you find fresh targets to fool (“having options”).

    There is no quippy rejoinder to every AMOG remark. There is no list to memorize long enough to cover every contingency. So stop chastising yourself for not being an impromptu James-Bond screenwriter with a one-liner for every situation. Instead make a man of yourself and laugh at AMOG attempts not as a well-rehearsed act but rather as a natural expression of a man who understands his value.


    • Cragsleeper
      on July 9, 2013 at 10:05 am
      Original Link

      Letting go may be the hardest thing for me to do here but I’ll trust what you’re saying. I think on this subject constantly now but at 34 I know my time is running short before I start to be called ‘sir’ by the women I’m looking to date. Not that it can’t be overcome of course but the last thing I need is additional hurdles.

      Rereading my post I see the neediness and flat out whiny nature. “Waah, this is so hard to do, why are people mean to me’ could sum up much of it. A lot of frustration in youth was from others attacking me for reasons I could not fathom; I see I’m not as far removed from that as I’d thought. I avoid drunkenness because I’m an overly friendly drunk, as in walking around telling people how cool they are and we should hang & whatnot – an insight into my inner nature and something I should be aware of and guard against.

      I am keenly aware of the irony that as I obsess in an attempt to fix things I ultimately feed into the problem and make it increasingly formidable in my own mind. I should just let it go, as you say. Accept I won’t win every encounter and stop even thinking about interaction within that frame and instead focus on my mission as I go out and socialize. For years I’ve been one of those guys CH would say “checked out” as every day was work, then sitting at home. If I’m bumbling around out there at least I should rack up some good stories, anything better than what I’ve been doing.

      If I post here again I’ll stick to field reports. I think I’ve been pointed in the right direction so now it’s past time to man up and deal no matter how uncomfortable. I won’t even go into the issues I have with relationships; my goal right now is growing the social circle and interacting with desirable women again, in and out of the bedroom. The archives here have proven invaluable in that pursuit.

      It’s sad I had to find out so many crucial things every man should know from stumbling onto a website.

      • Scray
        on July 9, 2013 at 1:06 pm
        Original Link

        ‘I’ve also had guys make the fool out of me with a good remark and then suddenly slap me on the back and say “I’m just messing with ya” which makes me think I must be showing some sort of butthurt with my body language, only I seriously don’t think I am anymore.’

        “And now you can’t keep your hands off me — hot and cold.”
        I hate when dudes try to pat me on the back and shit. Naturally, it’ll happen…but I tend to try and tool them for doing it. And ya, some of that stuff is just good-natured ribbing…but some of it is just them being dicksplashes. It’s easy to tell the difference: could you do what they did to you back to them without them being a cunt about it? If so, then ya…just good-natured ribbing. But if you try to do the same thing and they get cunty — watch yourself, that’s an adversary.

        ‘TL;DR I’m working on getting out more but keep getting tooled by guys when I can’t keep up with the repartee.’

        Wrong mindset, I think. You don’t have to keep up with them. Once you gain the ability to be a rock in the middle of anything, nothing else matters — like, think that a dude tools you and three other people crack up and you just sit there, stone silent. I can play it out for you —>

        Joke 1, group laughs, you just ignore.
        Joke 2, group laughs cause they see he’s trying to get a rise out of you, ignore.
        Joke 3, group laughs a little less because they see he has NO effect on you, ignore.
        Joke 4, group doesn’t really laugh at all, ignore.

        You don’t have to “keep up” with shit. Just focus on being a rock and let him be the phaggot wave. Somewhere around Joke 3, the group will instinctively pick up “o wait…..this guy is making jokes because he WANTS the other guy to do something, and the fact that the other guy is doing nothing is making the other guy make more jokes….other guy must be higher value.”

        It’s hard to pull off (believe me)…but consistent practice (fake until you start making it) will yield the desired results. At first it’ll feel really weird and the social pressure will just make you feel so icky. But after while, it’s less and less of a thing. Just practice it. Practice shutting up and thinking of no witty comeback at all and just standing there. Then, when the laughter ends, proceed as if it didn’t happen and no fucks are given. When you pull it off, it’s like ‘ya who gives a shit about -repartee-….repar-gay.’

        Also, sometimes it’s hard if you have friends who are legit funny. Like, if you give them four cracks at the ball, it’s highly likely they will say something that’ll just make you involuntarily laugh. But that’s okay too, because then you can just be like ‘ok….THAT one was funny’ which is still high value => he’s a clown there to entertain you.

        • YaReally
          on July 9, 2013 at 1:44 pm
          Original Link

          “Joke 1, group laughs, you just ignore.
          Joke 2, group laughs cause they see he’s trying to get a rise out of you, ignore.
          Joke 3, group laughs a little less because they see he has NO effect on you, ignore.
          Joke 4, group doesn’t really laugh at all, ignore.”

          This is exactly how it plays out. That’s Field Experience talking right there.

          “But that’s okay too, because then you can just be like ‘ok….THAT one was funny’ which is still high value => he’s a clown there to entertain you.”

          Yep, also this.

  • YaReally
    on July 8, 2013 at 4:47 pm
    Original Link

    Lots to cover here, I’ll come back with some more later, I’ve blown all day writing shit as it is (figured I should with a whole article about me and how amazing I am and all lol).

    Matt’s advice is solid long-term advice, it’s what you want to work towards (the zen thing). The only problem with it is it’s slow as fuck and doesn’t get you pussy today which ya, ya the end-all be-all of life shouldn’t be pussy but fuck it, if you’re a dude out around hot chicks, you want to stick your dick in them. And that’s OKAY lol.

    Anyway, I’ll drop some more shit in here later but for this part:

    “I still struggle and an example of a specific remark I’ve encountered multiple times including recently (usually a girl does this though) is to say “I could say something here, but I won’t” while casting an obnoxious sidelong glance to the others. I haven’t nailed down the perfect response to that, any help?”

    Here are some “IF…THEN” responses that won’t build your overall lifelong zen master-plan, but they MIGHT help you not feel like a tooled piece of shit the next time you get this kind of tooling from people when you’re out:

    “”I could say something here, but I won’t” while casting an obnoxious sidelong glance to the others.”

    “Oh that’s alright, I wouldn’t listen anyway. I mean, you’re a woman, it’s not like you’ll say anything important. ;) ” (with a cheeky grin)

    “Oh thank god. You talk so MUCH…finally, a break. Shhhh, everyone, let’s enjoy this silence…ahhh…” (with a cheeky grin, and interrupt her with “shhh!! I’m enjoying the rare moment where you aren’t talking!” when she talks)

    “That’s alright, I assume whatever it was was a compliment, and you’re right I DO look ridiculously handsome tonight. You’re such a flatterer.” (with a cheeky grin, as always)

    As long as you say these in a fun tone of voice where you know you’re deliberately being offensive/ridiculous (VS a hostile tone of voice where you’re butt-hurt), you should get a fun reaction. The underlying idea behind them all is that 1) you don’t care what she was going to say anyway, and 2) you’re sure it was probably a compliment because you’re so awesome.

    This leads into the zen thing of just believing you’re awesome all the time and your game flowing from that. But again, “focusing on your mission” when you’re out at the bar and a cockblocking mother hen is trying to stop you from putting your dick in her hot little friend, won’t really do much to get her. It’s passive and hoping the universe throws you the pussy you want instead of taking what you want.

    • Cragsleeper
      on July 10, 2013 at 8:41 am
      Original Link

      Great responses, my favorite being the second one. It’s probably obvious to many but that’s better than anything I had in mind. It would have been perfect, especially considering the last girl who used that being such a loud windbag. Now that I’m ready for that line I’m sure I’ll never encounter it again lol but I feel better just knowing at least I’m not getting tripped up again by the same trick. I know Matt’s right and there’s endless crap I’m going to run up against and I can’t script it all out, and maybe with time I’ll start to develop improvisation skills. For now Scray’s advice is probably the best for a guy like me, just assume the posture of a man who really doesn’t care and let the group see it. Getting out there these past few months has shown me I just can’t keep up with a lot of guys on the quips and I’d let that bother me far too much. Considering I was a shut-in for most of a decade I should accept my social skills are going to be inferior to those who have been out doing this for years and charge forward with irrational confidence regardless lol.

      Recent changes I’ve made that have had a noticeably positive effect: not laughing so much, lots of eye contact, and trying to be more critical. I was just too nice in the past. I make an effort not to laugh unless someone has really earned it and instead of throwing out all kinds of positive supportive crap I really limit it now and even though it still doesn’t feel natural yet, I try to pick out flaws in what a person said and bring them up. I’m really just imitating what people do to me to be honest and I think with practice it’ll become second nature but for now it’s definitely a conscious effort. I still find myself slipping into the old me when I start to get too comfortable in a group. Change is difficult.

      • Scray
        on July 10, 2013 at 11:09 am
        Original Link

        ‘For now Scray’s advice is probably the best for a guy like me, just assume the posture of a man who really doesn’t care and let the group see it.’

        This is the only thing that actually matters. “Keeping up” with guys and quips blah blah blah really does miss the point. Like, it really doesn’t matter what you say. You could have the most clever, lol-worthy (if we read it in type) comeback of all time….in the Field, that won’t matter much. What matters is that guy A asserts, through the quip, that he is higher value than you. By tryhard “quipping,” you just fall into the trap and risk being sucked into a gay little banter-fest that you’ll be on the losing end of precisely because you fell into his frame.

        Once you -establish- that he is not higher value than you….through the tactics above, -then- you can go after him and try to tool him. That’s how it works. You don’t have to be clever at all. You can just say ‘nice hat, queer’ or something stupid and everyone will treat it like it’s hilarious.

        Trust me…as a guy who’s short and stepping up, I deal with slights — minor and major — all the time. And the more successful I am, the more severe those slights are lol.

      • Scray
        on July 10, 2013 at 11:19 am
        Original Link

        and I think that’s how you can tell who on here is going out and who isn’t. A lot of the “solutions” or the “comebacks” ASSUME that guy B is on the same playing field as guy A, so they’re like ‘o ya, the content of this response is so good! yaaaa….’ What they miss is that no one is really giving your content a chance because they think guy A is higher value. So first thing’s first: break that perception. Then later, when they’re giving you a chance/actual attention….then you can bust out some good content (altho at that point it honestly won’t matter wat you say…).

        • YaReally
          on July 10, 2013 at 11:57 am
          Original Link

          “A lot of the “solutions” or the “comebacks” ASSUME that guy B is on the same playing field as guy A, so they’re like ‘o ya, the content of this response is so good! yaaaa….’ What they miss is that no one is really giving your content a chance because they think guy A is higher value.”

          Right, exactly, this is important. It’s the same concept as guys saying “oh this game stuff is all try-hard, you should just be like James Bond at the bar chilling and the hottest girls will want you”. It’s like ya they’ll love how James Bond you are when you’re dating but you won’t even be on her radar until you’re high value to her (thus why we use DHVs, social proof, negs/teasing, qualifying, approaching, etc) and the other guys chasing her will be trying to keep you OFF her radar because they’re on it.

          This is just the reality of cold-approaching hotties.

          I use witty comebacks because I’m quick with coming up with them. I’m able to flow like Russell Brand so it’s not hard for me to rattle off a bunch of clever stuff. If you’re not good at it, improv classes can help, study comedy and TV/movies with snappy dialogue, and just rack of tons of field experience lol

          Thing is tho is that it’s like Scray says, it’s the intent that matters more than the content. The quarterback doesn’t have to say anything witty to the cheerleader, she’ll giggle even if his “joke” is like “lol whatever bro you smell like poop” because he’s high-value to her and he thinks what he’s saying is all gold because he’s confident/cocky. Meanwhile the nerd who doesn’t understand the social dynamics is standing there going “wtf?? That wasn’t even FUNNY!!” as the cheerleader giggles and fawns over the quarterback.

          I COULD reply with “applesauce fuck giraffe” or just stare at her with a scolding look in my eyes and it would go over fine, because I already come off as high-value to girls so as long as that was entertaining to ME they’ll love it and think I’m a genius. But I prefer some clever wordplay stuff because I look at that as a little personal challenge, to improvise witty one-liners and innuendo and stuff, I think it’s fun lol and it’s something you improve on over time…writer’s get better the more they write, it’s the same thing.

          Part of giving the OP a line to say isn’t that it’s the best zinger ever…it’s exactly what the OP wrote that now he feels a little more equipped to handle himself and will be more confident if he runs into this situ in the future. And the fact that he’s more confident about that means that he probably won’t run into it again. We give guys training wheels so they learn not to be afraid of the bike…they can take those training wheels off later and bike with no hands if they want.

          The other thing is that you’ll run into the same situs over and over a lot in the field. Like the reason I can pop out comebacks for “I could say something but…” is because a ton of girls have said that (or similar) to me over the years lol so if you’re going to constantly run into the same situation, fuck it, come up with some witty responses.

          Like if you only have one arm, you know people will ask what happened to your arm, so why not come up with some clever/witty/sexual responses to “what happened to your arm?” Instead of winging it every time and getting frustrated. Take control, you know?

Options = Instability

Original Link

via Heartiste

on July 3, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Original Link

Shouldn’t it really be options at the same or higher SMV than one’s partner?

  • Scray
    on July 3, 2013 at 4:56 pm
    Original Link

    Okay, well then follow-up…in every LTR I’ve been in, the girls were convinced I had other options — using that definition, and of course, that was false. So, it just seems like when a girl is -truly- and deeply attracted to you, she’s already convinced that you have other options, regardless of contrary objective indicators: solipsism working in the man’s favor.

    • YaReally
      on July 3, 2013 at 5:09 pm
      Original Link

      “when a girl is -truly- and deeply attracted to you, she’s already convinced that you have other options, regardless of contrary objective indicators: solipsism working in the man’s favor”


      When I first started getting laid via pickup, girls would get mad at me when I honestly answered how many girls I’ve had sex with…they were attracted to me so fast (sex on the first meet or first date, thanks to PUA skills I was learning) that they wouldn’t accept that I had only been with 2 or 3 other girls and they’d get mad because they thought I was lying or being sarcastic because obviously if they were that attracted then other girls must be as attracted because the only other option is that no other girls would bang me and she has bad taste and just banged a beta and that’s unacceptable to her hamster.

      I thought it was fascinating from a psychology point of view…I ended up just lying and telling them what they wanted to hear, that I had been with lots of girls, even though I hadn’t, because they were legitimately getting pissed off at me when I wouldn’t “admit” it. It was so surreal to my rAFC mind lol

      Tyler makes a lot of points related to this in this video…if she’s attracted to you it’s ultimately in her best interest to enhance your good attributes and minimize your flaws, so in the end she envisions you as this badass perfect guy so logically of course other girls would want you. Such mental gymnastics…again, I find this kind of thing fascinating:

      • Scray
        on July 5, 2013 at 3:06 pm
        Original Link

        Yeah, the weird thing is I’ve never had any sort of problem with a girl like…plastering herself to me after we’ve slept together. It must have something to do with the fact that like….I have to overcome so much initially, that once the girl is attracted, she’s REALLY attracted. But it’s interesting, for sure.