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YaReally Archive

For Better or Worse

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on September 26, 2016 at 10:13 am
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Here’s my post describing pLTRs/oLTRs/etc and the mechanics behind them in more depth:

“understandable frustration with dealing with women in what’s become the modern sexual marketplace”

To be clear: I’m not “frustrated” with it, I’m just observing it and think it’s absurd/silly, but there’s no “fuck these entitled bitches!!!” or “OH NO THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!” behind it lol These are just objective observations of the changing field, like a scientist observing that mice are responding to different stimulus and what effects that’s having on the colony.

But around here the assumption seems to be that if you at all even remotely point out something negative then you must be obsessing and freaking out over it and letting it rule every decision you make and cry yourself to sleep worrying about it lol

“The plan is literally to raise a young woman to adulthood with the expectation of her raising another child without a father/husband in her life and the child’s.”

I’ve met a handful of girls who even at <25yo already have an orbiter locked down to settle with at 30+ when they get off the carousel. Like they'll openly admit it ("oh Steve is for later when I'm ready to settle down" etc), it's a part of their actual conscious long-term strategy.

"Read this woman’s post, sift through her other posts; she’s despicable, calculating, duplicitous and would put the knife in your back she told you she would,…but she’s also honest."

The problem is guys will read her post and write her off as crazy/BPD/whore etc and consider THEIR girl the unicorn/madonna/NAWALT, instead of accepting that most girls will do the same shit if they have to, consciously or unconsciously (with hamster rationalization to justify it so they don't have to feel like shitty people). Just like the War Brides dynamic, it's about optimal survival/replication and if push comes to shove you'll see behavior that you can't imagine her being capable of.

"The arrangement this woman is hoping will be her daughter’s adult life is not too far different from what YaReally was suggesting about pLTRs; a primary long term relationship with a direct or indirect understanding that a man could take other lovers as fits him. He’s not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment. And if Emma Johnson (or the reader she’s quoted) is to be believed this would be her own ideal relationship, albeit from the perspective of a woman retaining total Frame control."

It's important to understand that a pLTR in the man's favor is different from a pLTR in the woman's favor. The benefits are all in the pLTR in the man's favor. In the woman's favor it's a cuckold/open-hypergamy situation.

A pLTR in the man's favor is also easier to make work because Hypergamy helps it (that man being able to get other women is attractive). Whereas a pLTR in the woman's favor (the guy cuts off all his options while she continues to have open options) lowers his value.

"We’ve got the women we deserve because our silence, and the silence of our forbearers, was the voice of complicity."

Despite how people paint my position, I actually agree with this. It IS men's fault, for not stepping up and laying down the law. I agree that men need to lay down the law to regain control of this situation.

The problem with that that the OMGs don't seem to get because it wasn't how things worked in their day, is THIS part:

"Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order."

We've passed the point where men can do the things they need to do to bring order back to the system, because those things are now instantly villified if not by the girl herself then by her entire social networks from family to friends to peers to outsiders commenting on her reddit post asking for advice.

So those actions now come with massive risks, and those risks carry into making a long-term LTR work.

Like this, I agree with this completely, and it's a wonderful sentiment complete with Braveheart music playing in the background as we all LARP and raise our swords and shields to the sky hashtag manosphere hashtag real men:

"There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society."

But the reality is "unapologetically correcting women" equals losing your career, having your name slandered, losing access to your kids, losing assets/resources, social ostracization, losing access to potential NEW partners, and even potential jail time in 2016.

Men waited too long. Hitler needed to be killed when he was a baby, once he was in power it was significantly riskier. Same deal here.

"We also need to recognize that we will be reviled for presuming some patriarchal control or male privilege, but we must have the confidence to set this aside in the knowledge that we now understand that women cannot cope with post-modern social and technological changes."

Sure, you guys first. πŸ˜› (metaphorically, that's the mindset lol)

Like while I agree with this, this is basically old retired war vets telling young guys to go join the frontlines in a Vietnam style impossible to win war that those young guys KNOW they'll be cannon fodder for. No one's going to sign up for that suicide mission for no personal reward.

When I see some chick act bratty, unless I'm trying to fuck her I ain't saying fuck all. It's not worth risking ending up in a viral cell phone video on the front page of Gawker destroying all my career opportunities etc

That guy was lucky as fuck that he had video of the incident, just like Hugh Mungus and the Hula Uber cabbie were lucky their girls were so blatantly bat-shit crazy that a lot of people took their side. But if the girls had done the slightest bit of editing, those guys would have been completely fucked for life.

Why am I gonna take these risks to correct the shitty behavior of some random girl I don't even know? Now extrapolate that mentality to an entire generation of men.

That's why I'm pushing coming up with a new solution with less risks, to give men a chance of hope where it might be worth fighting back because there's 1) a codifiable plan/system/strategy for them to follow that makes sense and addresses the realities they're dealing with infield, and 2) a possible personal reward for them (not quite the white pickett fence dream but they might at least get to raise a kid in a stable 2-parent household for as long as possible with minimal risk)

Men respond to incentives and need plans/strategies. We don't accept "go slaughter yourself because it's the "right thing to do" according to people who act like they know better than you what's for your own good". We grew up on that and it and were taken advantage of and ended up at places like this site because of it.

"Personally I think that the chances of that happening are probably lower than what YaReally thinks"

Even if they're lower, which way is the trend going and why would it reverse? I'm thinking long-term here, not just "what about ME?"

"Answers being provided by men who have the field experience of being fathers, which the PUAs lack."

Field experience in a field that looks less and less like the field we're currently dealing with.

"to banging a 22 year Titled Kilt bartender (Thanks YaReally!)"

"The work. The responsibility. The understanding. The BURDEN."

Give us a benefit that we can't get without the risks. You took on the burden for a reward: the family life. In 2016 that reward is less and less likely to happen and the severe punishments are more and more likely to happen. But you expect us to have the same mindset you did minus the incentives and with a thousand times the risk.

"As an ” OMG ” that has virtually given up on trying to help out ( see Andy’s ” what answers ” comment above)"

None of you have provided anything unique. All you guys do is tell us to look at the thousand year old bible shit, or talk about feels that don't hold up in today's society and get butthurt when we tell you women don't view "wife" or "love" the way your wives did, while SJF posts more chapters from books by other men with as much or more experience than you guys.

It goes back to what I said months back in one of the many times you old guys were (as usual) being condescending about your amazing experience and wisdom: none of you says anything that we haven't already heard a thousand times before from a thousand other old guys who all think they're telling us it for the first time, or can't read/learn from a thousand other old guys who have as much or more sucess than you and teach it better than you.

We asked for your legitimate personal advice/experience in the vetting/marriage threads and you gave us nothing except the same stuff we've already heard or can learn from other men (from Blaximus' "you should just know how to vet like men in my upbringing taught me to bro if you don't know how then oh well we'll just laugh at you when you get fucked" to SJF's walls of Franco vetting that we've already read). There's no special magical OMG wisdom to be found here. Just a bunch of crying by red pill men about how we didn't ask NICE enough or let them get away with bullshit like "love" as an answer, and then another wall of OTHER men's writing/experience that we can and have already found/read lol

So like Andy said: what answers?

"Trying to explain that seeing your kids sporadically, even 60% of the time is not conducive to good parenting is NOT grasped by the non-parent crowd who inexplicably still profess wanting children at some point."

No one has ever advocated for absentee fatherism, this is a silly strawman you made up when you clutched your pearls. The current marriage system CREATES men who don't get to see their kids 60% or more of the time. We want to come up with a better system with better odds and less risk.

@Atticus @Blaximus
"Then again, a lot of fit, successful guys (like me) end up divorced because of lack of knowledge and her feelz. Not everyone had the RP role models you were blessed with."

This. Blaximus can't relate to the idea that other men are being raised without the same influences he was raised. Natural solipsism.

@Blaximus: so you just look at stats that justify your pov/mindset as way to give up without gaining a wider and deeper understanding?"

You seem to be fine with not gaining a wider and deeper understanding when you promote that getting legally married and promising monogamy are the only way to raise healthy children.

@Anonymous Reader
I've come to the unfortunate realization that while this place is great for diagnosis, actual progress probably won't be made here. Too many egos and too much dick-waving to even LET a simple discussion that questions socially conditioned beliefs. But I have some ideas in mind for when I have more free time down the road. πŸ˜›

on September 26, 2016 at 11:48 am
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““What is actually hard to relate to is the recognition of male influences I’ve had growing up, and then the outright rejection of those same very basic principles when I attempt to share them.””

1) We aren’t rejecting them, most of the time we AGREE with them. But like I said in my last post:

“The problem with that that the OMGs don’t seem to get because it wasn’t how things worked in their day, is THIS part:

“Now we’ve come so far that women will send a man to jail or the unemployment office, or a paternity court rather than hear a man criticize her inability to process social changes that harm not only her but the larger social order.”

We’ve passed the point where men can do the things they need to do to bring order back to the system, because those things are now instantly villified if not by the girl herself then by her entire social networks from family to friends to peers to outsiders commenting on her reddit post asking for advice.

So those actions now come with massive risks, and those risks carry into making a long-term LTR work.

Like this, I agree with this completely, and it’s a wonderful sentiment complete with Braveheart music playing in the background as we all LARP and raise our swords and shields to the sky hashtag manosphere hashtag real men:

“There must come a point where men must unapologetically correct women for the betterment of society.”

But the reality is “unapologetically correcting women” equals losing your career, having your name slandered, losing access to your kids, losing assets/resources, social ostracization, losing access to potential NEW partners, and even potential jail time in 2016.

Men waited too long. Hitler needed to be killed when he was a baby, once he was in power it was significantly riskier. Same deal here.”

2) So if that’s all you have to offer, okay then, thanks for trying. We just thought you had more to bring to the table than the same stuff we already knew and have heard a thousand times over but still isn’t any less applicable in 2016 culture.

“Same thing with pointing them to 1,000’s of years of wisdom… They want a “unique” New New Thing… despite the fact that the biological makeup of women is unaltered…”

Like I said in my last post:

“none of you says anything that we haven’t already heard a thousand times before from a thousand other old guys who all think they’re telling us it for the first time, or can’t read/learn from a thousand other old guys who have as much or more sucess than you and teach it better than you.

We asked for your legitimate personal advice/experience in the vetting/marriage threads and you gave us nothing except the same stuff we’ve already heard or can learn from other men”

Neither of you seem to have anything to offer modern men dealing with 2016 because you can’t understand the chess board is no longer 8×8 and can’t tailor your wisdom to the new board that’s in an L shape. You just sit there shaking your fist at clouds saying “Why don’t these darn kids listen to us??!!” as you continue playing chess on the 8×8 board you bought in a previous generation.

on September 26, 2016 at 11:50 am
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“have heard a thousand times over but still isn’t any less applicable in 2016 culture”

Should read “have heard a thousand times over but is still just as “less applicable” in 2016 culture.”

on September 26, 2016 at 3:46 pm
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It’s up to each man to determine how much he has to lose. A MGTOW who just checks out of society DOES lose out having and raising a kid in a 2-parent household, but as long as he keeps his mouth shut he at least keeps his career, money, home, reputation, personal health, freedom, etc A guy can lead a pretty comfortable life with that stuff.

Again you guys are sitting in a comfy air-conditioned office telling the troops “just run into the minefield “hey, you got nothing to lose!”” Uhh no, we have plenty to lose.

Men respond to incentives and risk management, and will be happy to run into that minefield if someone can provide them a map or tools that will help them lower the risk of stepping on a mine, and list benefits OF running into that minefield.

But no one is providing them that shit, they’re just saying “c’mon just run into it and accept that half of you are going to be blown to bits, while we sit here relaxing because we grew up in a different environment”. That’s why nothing will change in these trends…this is just complaining, not offering actual appealing solutions.

That’s not an attack on your or anything, this is just the straight-up of how these LARPy rallying cries come off to us to us and will come off to future generations. That’s why these rallying cries don’t actually DO fuck all except pump everyone’s state in the comment section for 10 minutes.

At the end of the day all it takes is one accusation to destroy your life for good with ZERO guaranteed return/benefit on taking that risk. It’s 100% risk/consequence for a very low chance of a reward.

We will watch things continue the way they’re going until you guys can put yourselves in our place and understand what we’re dealing with so we can have an actual discussion (not you Rollo, but the OMG crowd in general).

Or we’ll just solve it ourselves, just like we did with PUA.

“Or d) You are just a stupid sock puppet.”

If you’re implying that’s me as a sock puppet, I don’t need sock puppets, I’ll call you retarded flat out if I think you’re retarded. But it shows where your head is at…so far up your own ass that you can’t even comprehend that people might actually disagree with the Great Blaximus (who says show no fear of any social/career/personal consequences, but doesn’t use his real name/photo on here hmmm “rules for thee, not for me” again? I mean, what, are you SCARED of SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES?).

Maybe you’re just WRONG about shit sometimes dude. I bet there are other guys lurking who would agree with me but they don’t want the OMG clique to shit all over them.

“And there you have it. Circular. I’ve never said YaReally is advising absentee fatherism. Not once. Ever.”

You’ve implied it numerous times. Same with Rollo and the “choosing the nightclub over the little league game” shit. No one is advocating for that.

on September 26, 2016 at 3:54 pm
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Cosign with everything you said.

“But maybe other guys here can get something out of a discussion about that.”

This is the surreal part. We can’t even have a fucking DISCUSSION, that’s how sensitive these guys are. Literally the second there’s even the START of a discussion or the topic comes in, they have to jump in and shit all over and it argue semantics and make fun. Exact same shit women do when they visit red pill forums…just complicate and squash discussion to prevent progress.

But I can see how it would be scary for men to talk…I mean, what if we found out there WAS a better way with lower risk and higher odds? Then what would a guy who’s identity is based around being a successful OMG have to wave his dick about? He would just be some guy who succeeded at a flawed system he could’ve avoided entirely and gotten the same benefits.

on September 26, 2016 at 4:10 pm
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“But men are going to lose all of their shit, including jobs and everything else, if they do not fight back.”

Then wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss a lower risk higher odds strategy for them to try to fight back with.

on September 26, 2016 at 5:33 pm
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@Sentient @Blaximus
“Since you refuse to accept what we are saying Yareally, what have you got now?”

You’ve said nothing that men can apply to 2016’s culture that we don’t already know. You guys are ridiculous. “WHY WON’T YOU GUYS LISTEN TO US” “Because what you’re saying isn’t relatable” “BUT WHY WON’T YOU LISTEN TO US??” “Because what you’re saying isn’t relatable” “BUT JUST LISTEN TO US” and on and on.

Either make an effort to understand the world we’re dealing with when we try to explain it to you, or accept that your advice is going to be of limited usefulness to men.

“What do you have that restricts hypergamy and FI sexual options, allows you unfettered access to your children, provides a means to verify that the money you are spending on your children is actually going to their welfare, prohibits other men (or womyn) from raising your children and does not openly support other men’s dicks in your “whatevers” snatch?”

Can’t guarantee anything, but we understand enough about attraction, hypergamy, etc that we can surely come up with a strategy that has better odds than the current failing (and trending to fail even harder) system. Which is the point of having those discussions. Or at least TRYING to.

It’s fascinating how against even the DISCUSSION you guys are. We have to climb uphill just to even TRY to discuss it. If this were any other forum about any other subject I would call you paid shills trying to squash discussion. But sadly it’s just massively invested and conditioned egos instead.

“Yeah, kind of like stepping off the curb to walk across the street.”


“I’ve been accused of taking advantage of a drunk girl.”

What year was this? Have you been following what’s happening in universities right now with rape accusation hysteria?

“I know that 2016 is different than back when I was in college because of college rules, but risk can be mitigated.”

Apparently that’s risk-avoidance and makes you a pussy. According to the Real Men (TM) here.

“No matter what you do, there is risk.”

Yup. Now if there’s a benefit to taking that risk it could be worth it. So can anyone name benefits to getting legally married and promising monogamy in 2016 that can’t be gotten without those things?

on September 26, 2016 at 5:40 pm
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“I ask YOU what do YOU have and you say:”

Check the marriage thread, I started laying out a ton of stuff with Anonymous Reader and Trent Lane.

Oh right, you didn’t read any of that. You were too busy waving your dick around.

on September 26, 2016 at 5:50 pm
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We aren’t rejecting your advice, we’re saying it’s significantly harder to apply in the current culture than it was for you. You’re the one who takes that personally as “WHY ARE YOU REJECTING MY ADVICE”.

on September 26, 2016 at 6:03 pm
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“You won’t know if you refuse to try…..”

For what benefit that we can’t get without legal marriage or promised monogamy? Sounds smarter to try a different system that doesn’t have such shitty odds (that are continuing to plummet every year)

on September 27, 2016 at 6:14 pm
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“And just for the sake of argument, say a guy wants to tackle fatherhood, but doesn’t want risk, and pretty much figures he has the woman in question under control so that he’s confident she will go along with his risk averse plan, and your kid is born blind or with no arms? Where does the risk averse mindset fit into that scenario? How does the aversion to doing hard shit match up with this outcome?”

lol wut? Why would being in a pLTR mean you can’t take care of your blind armless kid? She would be even more likely to need your support and less likely to bail on you in that case. You think she’s going to run off with the blind armless kid to fend for herself because you have side-poon?

Or is your argument “someone who avoids risk in one area avoids risk in all other areas because I’m incapable of nuanced thinking and think that someone who doesn’t want to risk all of their assets, alimony, etc for no benefit I can actually name, will also avoid ALL RISKS EVER FOREVER IN ALL AREAS EVER AND NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE OR OPEN HIS EYES INCASE WHEN HE OPENS HIS EYES A PIECE OF DUST LANDS IN THEM AND THAT’S TOO MUCH RISK”?

“Not sure how well the child would bond with even the pLTR given it’s not HER child.”

wut? The baby would be the pLTR’s child.

wtf is anyone even talking about now lol

on September 27, 2016 at 6:18 pm
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Under the Tyler vid in this post:

“So, has the *nature* of young women/girls really *changed*, or is it only ramped up now?”

No one is saying the nature of women has changed, we are saying the societal influences on them have changed. Why do I have to keep repeating this 500000000 times?

on September 27, 2016 at 6:22 pm
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“Pua’s provide a needed service imo. Paid or not. It would be unfortunate to see the entre movement painted with a negative brush, especially if that negativity scares off men in need of services.”

So put down the brush and do some research into what Tyler/Mystery/etc teach instead. PUAs teach all that win/win “leave her better than you found her” stuff. But a martial arts instructor who teaches his students not to use their skills to bully people can’t control that some people are fucking retarded and will go beat the shit out of someone for no reason with the skills they learned.

on September 27, 2016 at 6:23 pm
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No idea what your point is, why would the blind armless kid be any worse off than in a legal marriage situation?

“So… ramped up now, yes? that’s what I said.”

That’s what we’ve all said since the beginning.

on September 27, 2016 at 6:27 pm
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So no actual argument, cool, about what I figured.

on September 27, 2016 at 6:31 pm
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lol ya I’d say that’s going backwards, she’d need it to be her baby.

For Better or Worse

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via Rational Male

on September 27, 2016 at 7:14 pm
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@Colbert @Blaximus
“Ummm…Charlie Sheen is not a model of success in this arena…lol.”

lol I don’t think Charlie Sheen is a model of success in ANY arena to anyone.

Lots of good subcomms in that Bueller vid though

“So do you pick your favorite plate or your least favorite,to leave watching the kids?”

What? Does Sentient invite the stripper he bangs on a business trip to watch his kids? Why would you even let the other girls meet your kids?

Why does everyone think that if you don’t promise monogamy then that means you’ll have 50 women walking in and out of your house raising your kids for you while you go Charlie Sheen it up in nightclubs skipping their little league games lol I can’t believe how hard it is for people to grasp nuances around here.

“Would a HB 4 or an HB8 be more likely to agree to this pltr?”

Do the math: The hotter the girl, the higher-value the guy she needs. Is a guy who can get other girls and doesn’t treat her as special and is less outcome dependent high-value or low-value to her?

on September 27, 2016 at 7:30 pm
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Welcome to 2016 text game lol It’s a nightmare to get plans made. It wasn’t like that 5-10 years ago.

In all your interactions you’re the one chasing them (initiating, pushing for the meetup, etc). Gonna be hard to build enough attraction via txt to get them chasing you and wanting a meetup. Phone call with voice might help, game them a bit on the phone then get them to commit to something solid.

You might be stuck just pinging them every couple weeks till they happen to be free because it doesn’t sound like you have enough attraction to do much with.

This is why Julien Max Tyler etc say to focus more on making huge impact in the initial interaction and taking that as far as possible (ideally to the lay), ’cause once you go to txts it’s a ton of flaking and hard to get her out again.

Might be better off focusing on new chicks and just ping these ones every couple weeks.

“Well you have to have the kids with someone! If you are spinning plates do you choose one of them?Or look for THE ONE?”

lol you just choose the best one. You have plenty of other girls to compare to because you spin plates, so you can vet for the best one of the group.

“You do the math the hotter the girl the more options she has for support,sex,orbiters ect.the less likely she is to be happy raising kids. The more likely ou are to be watching the kids while she has her fun.”

“Maybe, just maybe some of us have already seen and heard this all before. It’s not grasping nuance that’s the issue. Your defense is basically ” I will be different and do the correct thing always. Trust me “. Lol.”

Solid logic. So a kid who hasn’t been on a bike before falling off means that he can’t be taught and practice learning how to stay on it. Better methods/training don’t increase success rates. That holds up in SO MANY areas of life. lol

“Which all works wonderfully in pick up. You’re not talking about pick up though. You want it all to be the same. Guys with actual kids”

With women from a previous culture.

“You want it all to be the exact same. It is not.”

You’re right it’s not the exact same, we’re dealing with women raised in 2016 culture and have to adapt to that. Why are you against men discussing improving their strategies to lower their risk and increase the odds of success with better methods/training/strategy?

on September 27, 2016 at 7:34 pm
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So does this summarize your position?

on September 27, 2016 at 8:18 pm
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“Why are against fathers explaining the possible flaws in your plan?”

What?? You actually posted something that contributed to the discussion?? Holy shit, lemme go read it, I must’ve scroll-wheeled through it ’cause I’m just so used to you NOT doing that.

Snark aside thanks for FINALLY actually bringing up actual discussion points that we can get into:

“Since there is no ” benefit ” in marriage in 2016 ( it is utterly impossible.,..anything pointing to the contrary is unproven anectdote..evidently )”

No, I’m sure you got benefits from your marriage, but 1) that wasn’t in 2016 to 2016 culture girls not in the UMC/religious clique, and 2) the actual benefits you got was “love” and “it’s different” which are just feels, and are dying (if not dead completely) outside of that UMC/religious clique.

“can a man avoid risk by having a child out of wedlock?”

Why did you switch this to “avoid” from “mitigate”? I’ve said from the start that there’s no guarantees and you can’t eliminate all risk, but you can MITIGATE it.

“No. There are still risks, particularly financial ones.”

We know that. And have been bringing that up in the attempts at discussion in-between your crying about how no one listens to you.

“Does a man have to be fully present to raise a child?”
“Does a man have to be fully present to successfully play a full part in raising a child?”

Why do you even bring this up? No one is advocating that a man abandons his children or avoids being a full-time dad to them. Once again we come back to Sentient fucking a stripper on a business trip: is Sentient not “fully present” if he does that? Because that’s what a pLTR can look like if you want.


“100% or the time? Yes, or as close as possible. It is serious business. It should be taken seriously. If not, wrap uo your dick at all times, please.”

Have you ever left the house? Have you ever been away on business for a few hours? Have you ever let your kids out of your sight for a few hours? Have you ever worked late? Have you ever gone on a camping trip with your buddies?

Just replace a few hours here and there with “fucking a fuckbuddy in a hotel room” instead. Exact same level of involved fathering.

“You, named as the father, are on the hook for 18 years of child support regardless of marital status. No bullet dodged there.”

No one is trying to dodge the bullet of “taking care of your kids”. The point of this is to be ABLE to take care of your kids. Why do you keep thinking everyone wants to avoid taking care of their kids like ghetto dudes? Do you seriously think what we’re talking about is “man how can I have a kid and then just never have to take care of it?” Is that REALLY what you think?

“If you give a damn, you will still have to fight in court for proper visitation. Maybe you can swing 50/50. Maybe. But remember, courts give no fucks about fathers, and even less fucks about baby daddys.”

Like I said, this is something you have to deal with regardless. But if you go into a relationship knowing that there’s a good chance you’ll have to deal with a custody battle, because we had discussions like this and were able to teach men to prepare for that probably situation, less men will end up like the guys who tell a family court judge “uhhh no I don’t really know what her teacher’s names are or when her doctor’s appointment is, I let my wife handle all of that stuff…” and lose access to their kids.

By telling guys about the REALITIES of relationships in 2016, that they’ll PROBABLY have to go through a custody battle, they can pro-actively be more involved and collect whatever evidence they can that they’re the better parent, to at least not get blindsided if it DOES come to a custody battle…which legal marriage and promising monogamy doesn’t guarantee it won’t come to, so the kids thing is the same regardless except that you won’t ALSO have an assets/alimony battle on your hands…probably a lot easier to make the case that you’re the better home for the kids when YOU own the home instead of you working 2 jobs living out of your car to pay alimony.

“Can one be a Part time father successfully?”

Who cares, that’s not even the topic. No one is advocating for absentee fatherism.

“Ime, a man must be a constant presence, unrestricted, in his child’s life from birth.”

Yes, that’s what we’re advocating. Because we’re not advocating for absentee fatherism or avoiding raising the kids. Why do you keep bringing up this silly strawman side-tangent that NO ONE is in favor of?

“a) Women can be vindictive as fuck. Baby moms even more so than wives. Ask the guys that get locked up for non payment of support, even when they lose their jobs.”

Agreed. Legal marriage and promising monogamy doesn’t prevent that, and really just adds more stress and financial risk on top of it giving her MORE she can do to you if her vindictive side comes out.

“b) Courts are not fair when dealing with baby daddys. They laugh at your ” rights ” because you are not married ( ok, there’s that word, but it’s not an endorsement in any way ). They see all men standing before the judge as irresponsible. Get a very good lawyer before coming to any court date $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$”

Agreed. And ideally someone told you ahead of time, like in this discussion we’re trying to have, that you should expect a child custody battle whether you’re legally married or not, because even if you’re legally married the courts will still laugh at you and give the kids to the baby mama most of the time. But at least if someone warned you ahead of time that “look, in 2016 relationships are unstable and she has a lot of influences convincing her to bail on you and take the kids the second she gets bored or unhaaaappy, so PREPARE FROM DAY ONE for this and get to know your kids teachers, doctors, etc and be building a huge case and have a good lawyer ready and collect dirt on her etc”

We’re trying to build awareness here so that men can improve their odds of getting the kids. How many of Jolie’s flip-out violent tantrums do you think Brad Pitt filmed for his custody battle? Fucking none I’ll bet. Because he wasn’t told “look dude, in 2016 you’re probably going to face a custody battle at some point, prepare for that”

I can’t comprehend why anyone red pill would be against warning men of these risks and giving them strategies to minimize them.

“c) Kids need their dad around in their formative years as much as they need mom. Even if you are only just standing around looking at them. Children can be a time consumer. That’s not a bad thing if you are looking for optimal results for them. Think about that fully.”

Agreed. Good thing no one is advocating for absentee fatherism. I don’t know why you keep bringing this up. Sentient fucking a stripper on a business trip and you playing poker at a buddy’s place for a few hours or going on a camping trip without the kids and wife doesn’t make you a shitty father.

“d) Did I say get a good lawyer??$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$”

Did I ever say DON’T get one? This is a guide for red pill men who are presumably increasing their success in other areas as well as women (again going back to the guide we were trying to discuss in the marriage thread you guys shat all over, of a guy learning game early in his life so that he can focus on his career and ideally settle down in his late 30s where he has wealth and game/pLTR management skills) who want to have the best odds of raising their kid in a stable 2-parent household. So presumably the guy will be able to afford a good lawyer, especially if he’s made aware ahead of time that a 2016 relationship will PROBABLY involve a custody battle at some point, so he can stockpile some savings toward affording that lawyer.

“Remember, your support amount is based on your salary. Lol, you have ZERO say in the matter. Get that LAWYER!!!!! The courts will take so much from you that you may not be able to pay your rent or car payment. You won’t have savings. I’ve seen guys forced into bankruptcy from not having enough dough left after child support to pay their obligations.”

Fuck that sounds AWFUL. Now imagine on TOP of it he also loses half his assets including his house and dog AND has to pay alimony to his ex and her new boyfriend living in his old house with the kids. Might as well not get legally married and risk dog-piling THAT avoidable risk on TOP of the unavoidable family court risks.

“Married ( that word..) or not, you will be tying yourself to this woman for decades. I repeat – DECADES. Court enforced decades, backed by imprisonment and the full force of law enforcement.”

That’s what we WANT. We are not trying to avoid her or the kid, we are trying to find a way to decrease the risks and increase the odds of the man being WITH the woman AND the kid for decades, using what we now know about the red pill, attraction, hypergamy, dread, etc, combined with the changes to the playing field we’re seeing thanks to technology/culutural influences/social conditioning/etc in 2016.

“There are no easy, hack answers in this at all. Ever. The risks will always be there, and they could cost you as much as a divorce if you truly fuck up.”

I’ve said since the beginning that you can’t avoid all the risks. But there’s no reason to pile an AVOIDABLE risk on top of UNAVOIDABLE risks. This “in for a penny in for a pound” mentality is retarded. If I give you a business deal that risks 25 cents does it make ANY sense for you to put your entire life savings in that deal because “well hey, I could lose that 25 cents so I might as well risk it all for no reason!”

“It’s not something to be considered lightly or half-heartedly.”

No shit, that’s why it would be nice if we could actually discuss it instead of having to wade through 11 pages of you crying about “young guys these days” and posting videos of ghettos full of guys trying to avoid taking care of their kids as if any of that shit is relevant in any way to what we’re actually discussing if you’d stop clutching your pearls and read what we write.

“And I won’t even go into schooling and stuff like that. Being a dad, a father, a GOOD father is not for the non serious. It will suck to decide 4 years in that it’s too much for you, and way too hard. No children erasers available.”

NO ONE WANTS TO ERASE THE CHILDREN. Jesus fucking christ, it’s like talking to a brick wall.

“Know who does give a fuck? The child. So if one is not prepared to walk though fire for their kid, then don’t have one, even on spec.”



You were doing so good until you went back to this stupid tangent that NO ONE is recommending or trying to find ways to do.

on September 27, 2016 at 8:41 pm
Original Link

@Culum Struan @stringerbell
“And it’s become much more common to outright stand you up without even telling you that she’s not going to make it.”

Also notice the way the girls in stringer’s posts are flaking. Half the time if he doesn’t ping them for “are we still on?” they wouldn’t even let him know they can’t make it. And the other half the time the plans they’re flaking on you for are plans that they made AFTER you already had plans discussed lol Like “something came up” like a dinner party or whatever that was just more important than the plans you two had, because the attraction she had in the moment when you met her has been whittled down by all the non-stop stimulus and feels thrown at her on her little smartphone.

In the “old days” (pre full-social-media era) you could make plans a couple weeks in advance and they would look forward to them. But now they have SO MANY OFFERS 24/7 coming in that they flake on 9 other offers every night to go with the 1 that resonates with them in that moment.

The thing is they assume you’re doing the same thing TOO. Part of why they don’t bother telling you they’re flaking is they assume you’ll probably flake too, if they thought you were a cool social guy then they assume you’re getting a bunch of other offers of stuff to do as well (which ideally you SHOULD be lol)

Like it’s not even considered rude in 2016 because “everyone is doing it”, and if you get upset about it that’s WEIRD in 2016 because you should HAVE other plans lined up if you’re a cool social guy (because the only guys they register on their radar are the cool social guys, they don’t realize Billy the Nerd has zero other offers on a Friday night).

“It’s not the only reason but it was one of the reasons I switched to cold approach – at least that way I’m guaranteed to have a girl in front of me to talk to you know?”

Ya I say focus more on the initial interaction…try to push it to the lay, and if you HAVE to take a number qualify it and Time Bridge it HARDCORE and even THEN expect that there’s a good chance she’ll flake or be difficult to arrange plans with.

“I did make a huge emotional impact when I met them, and they were pretty invested, but if I can’t get anything setup that week, they lose that attraction over time.”

Right, they always DID, but in the past she would have maybe 2 guys phoning her on her dial-up phone a couple times a week. Now a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 wakes up to DOZENS of texts from DOZENS of different people all offering her stuff to do, from the guy from last night just wanting a conversation, to the fuckboi wanting sex, to her friend wanting to meet up for lunch, etc etc etc And before she's finished responding to the handful of those that she considers important, she has another dozen texts/messages/posts/pics on her friends walls/etc to engage with. Same way we write long posts and hit reload and there's 20 more posts and are like "fuck I'm trapped" and end up posting all day lol

"Anything structurally you’d fix about my text game?"

Nothing that would make any real difference. It's like a car that can only get 3/4 of the way around a track…you can paint that car any color you want but it's not really going to help win the race.

"I agree I’m always chasing / pushing for the meetup, but that’s also per your advice to move the interaction forward."

Right, that's where we get into the catch-22 of txting in 2016. If you don't push things forward, you become a text buddy (friendzoned). If you DO push things forward, in the OLD DAYS you would get the meet-up, but NOW you get the flake. But if you push a few times in a row and keep getting flaked, you're setting a bad frame/habit for her.

So there's a point where it's like I'm not really sure WHAT to do. She needs more Attraction to actually meet up, but you can't really get it over txts the way you could 5-10 years ago. Voice call might help because you get more subcomms in there, but the best bet in 2016 will always be to push the set as far as it can go in person and do anything you can to get them out in that first 48 hour window.

"Should I mix in some funny/teasing pings where I don’t push for a meetup?"

I would just DHV and then go radio silent and ping them in a month or two and go find new girls in the meantime lol 'cause there's a point where you're just giving them value/attention but not getting anything in return and there's no clever txt that's going to spark enough attraction. You might be able to keep txting them and just happen to catch them on a free night when they're bored and have no other options, but that's a lot of time investment on your end.

"Am I obviously dropping the ball anywhere over text (i.e they’re too long, too eager, not enough teasing) or is your only advice to make a bigger impact in person?"

If it were a few years ago I'd have a bunch of shit for you to try lol but focus on bigger impacts in person and pushing the set as far as possible in person instead of having the mindset of "it's not SUPER convenient logistics so I'll just get the number and work her on the Day2", have the mindset of "what are the logistical problems and how can I disarm them, 'cause I will probably never see her again if I don't figure this out".

"Any strategy of what to do once you get them on the phone?"

Treat it like you would if you ran into her in person…spike her buying temp, DHV, engage her, tease her, get her chasing you (aka get solid A2 from her), and then pitch a meet-up for as soon as possible (as soon as you hang up the phone or that evening) and Time Bridge the fuck out of it and qualify her on it etc etc etc

"Q: How many failures are you allowed in learning to vet and maintain a baby mama without getting sliced and diced? A: None."

Agree. So we better have a discussion about coming up with a good Speed Screening guide for men so they can vet baby mamas better and faster, and minimize the baby mama's ability to slice and dice as much as possible by not signing legal marriage contracts."

"I take it you mean “other than the 2016 women”?"


lol Mystery in that vid:

on September 28, 2016 at 11:53 am
Original Link

“Yet, you continue to mock real life experience. Image that?”

Outdated life experience by OMGs who have never kept a <25yo 8+/10 2016 chick raised in 2016 culture attracted to them in a monogamous legally-married arrangement for 18+ years, but act as if they have.

"You think divorce is absolutely more devastating than getting raped over child support."

No, child support is bigger, but the reward of child support is "you have kids". The reward of divorce is "some chick that gives no fucks about you is fucking her boyfriend in your house on your dime". One is an acceptable risk because it comes with a benefit, the other is a silly risk that shouldn't have been taken.

"You think every man loses all or half of his shit, his kids and his dog in divorce. I know men ( plural ) that haven’t, and I am one."

Cool, and your solispism shows in everything you write. But the reality is the stats out there are getting worse and worse for men who aren't in the UMC/religious clique, and will continue to do so. So while you don't seem to have the ability to see more than 10 minutes into the future or outside of your little bubble, the rest of us are thinking about what's happening for the average man years down the road as these trends continue.

"But I can tell you that I know precious few men that came out of support situations with their assholes intact."

No one has ever made the argument that men will come out of child support situations with their assholes intact. Why are you against warning men that they may have to deal with a custody battle if they have a kid in 2016? Why do you want to keep men in the dark and have them be blindsided? Do you just hate men who aren't a part of your clique?

"You think being a father is just a word. That sounds like every feminist I’ve ever heard."

You're just making up nonsense now, painting me as some boogeyman ghetto neighbor who made fun of your rosebushes because you can't comprehend the idea that someone would actually disagree with you and call you out on going off on irrelevant side-tangents and strawmen and contradicting yourself and flat out lying, just like you lied when you said I told Andy to nuke his marriage.

"You think that men will all just automatically gain more and more wealth as the years pass by."

If they follow the guide that we were trying to discuss but couldn't because you OMGs threw a fucking fit over guys trying to improve on your methods. What is it, fear of other people being better and smarter than you? So wrapped up in your own ego that you have to try to squash other men incase they pull back the curtain and show that oops, you could've done what you did in a better way but didn't figure it out? Every discussion you squash and every time you tell men not to try because they're not going to be able to do something, just reveals how little you think of other men and how you look down on them.

"You think the courts will be fair and reasonable….lmao."

No, I expect them to rape the guy regardless, but better to send him in prepared to get slightly less raped than send him in blind like you want to and have him get fully raped. Telling someone to lock their car door or carry a firearm as he drives through a rough neighborhood isn't telling him he won't get carjacked. It's just helping his odds as much as possible, whereas you'd prefer he drive down the street slowly with his doors open counting wads of cash apparently…"hey, he might get robbed so he might as well lose EVERYTHING if he's going to lose $20"

"You honestly think the plan, as stated, that you’ve come up with makes sense as far as mitigating risk."

No, I think the plan, as stated, is a good start to having a discussion. A discussion that you don't want to happen because you don't actually give a shit about men besides yourself…you've said it yourself, it worked for YOU so fuck everyone else.

"You think I get personally upset or something because I try to honestly point to flaws I see in your reasoning."

lol you throw a fit the second I type the word marriage.

"I’ve watched guys try to do what you are talking about. Part of the benefits of being older, even in2016. You aren’t breaking new ground with this."

I forgot that things can't be improved. Everything is perfect the first time, and everyone who tries anything is immediately successful, otherwise that thing is impossible. So the kid who doesn't play the guitar well is demonstrating that it's impossible to play a guitar well, ever, by anyone, for all of eternity.

Like MrT said and like you'll ignore: "Ive been seeing failed marriages my whole life, does that mean I should throw away the concept of marriage per se? According to this logic I should."

This is simple logic that even children could understand.

"What I do know, is that maybe you can make your plan work out, but if you falter and miscalculate, you will wish you never thought of THIS scheme."

Then you agree that it would be best if we could discuss this thoroughly to avoid the risk of miscalculation, and encourage men to only try it if they're 100% ready for being an involved father so they don't falter. So why do you keep squashing the discussion?

"As it stands right now, your plan has no benefit in 2016."

Less risk to men is a significant benefit. But you wouldn't care about that, that would require viewing other men as worth helping.

"This is exactly the logic of a guy like BigAl. But no one here was advising him make sure he knows what hes doing, what marriage is like, if he vetted his girl properly, that it will be a lot of work etc. Even though it was blatantly obvious from his post he had no idea what he was doing (which was later confirmed by his further replies). He literally came here bragging about how hes going to marry the right girl (lol), how outcome independent he is (lol), how strong his frame is (lol). If YR wasnt poking some question at him, he wouldnt even know he had no fucking idea what he was doing. But nobody here gave a shit about him because everyone was too busy clapping to his courage."

This. Big Al is actually the reason I started pushing this monogamy/marriage thing hard. Because NO ONE said fuck ALL to him. NO ONE in this red pill community asked him even BASIC questions. Rollo even congratulated him. This is the one place where a guy like that is even going to have ACCESS to guys who WOULD ask these questions and no one gave a shit. That's why I started poking because I've met guys like him and I could tell from his first post that he didn't do any of his homework and I couldn't believe no one was calling him out on it (until after I stepped up to be the asshole and start it of course).

Everyone talks a big game about helping other men but no one wants to do the actual dirty work because it's "negative" and the OMGs will throw a hissy fit.

"As to YaReally’s claims that the OMG’s are not saying anything new: That is the point that we are making, we aren’t saying anything new,"

Then why are you getting so butthurt when we tell you that you're not saying anything new?

"It’s simply not true that you can’t generated dread unless you employ the Hugh Hefner method. That’s just silly."

That IS silly. It's a good thing that's never actually been my argument except when you OMGs twist it.

I've said from the beginning that you CAN generate dread in a legal-marriage monoLTR, it's just significantly harder with significantly more risks (for no actual benefit anyone has named (oops except "LOVE" lol because women's love is unconditional and all)) because you have to fake a lot of stuff that you would naturally have if you weren't in that arrangement.

on September 28, 2016 at 11:59 am
Original Link

“Yet, if a man were bold enough to correct women by daring to advise they prepare themselves to be acceptable for men he’s accused of misogyny, a fragile ego, being a chauvinits/supremacist and suspect of physical violence.

That’s the degree of control the FI has conditioned into our gender norms.”

Hear that, Blaximus? Like I’ve said since the beginning: the things you’re advising are great, and still work, we all agree on that, but society is being socially conditioned to view those things you’re recommending as abusive/evil/etc in 2016 and even if they work on the girl herself, her friends and family and people she doesn’t even know who butt their heads in in this social-media-connected world, will be encouraging her to Eat Pray Love her way away from your “abusive” ass.

That’s why I say they’re outdated in the form that you’re presenting them. If you’re too stuck in your OMG ways to be flexible/adaptive anymore, cool, I get it, you’re a relic covered in dust and I guess they say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks for a reason…but your advice will sound more and more like outdated “bring her flowers and ask her dad if you may court his daughter in exchange for your father’s cattle” nonsense until we can discuss the realities of the playing field modern men are dealing with and how that’s changed being able to execute those things.

The less you make an effort to understand the world YSGs are living in and keep thinking your experience in a completely different culture/system with a completely different type of girl that YSGs are no longer finding around them, the more outdated and dust-covered you make yourself look.

on September 28, 2016 at 4:30 pm
Original Link

“I know men that got divorced and did not have to pay alimony or court ordered child support.”

And we know men that have been divorced and have to pay alimony AND court ordered child support. Better that they only have to pay the child support.

Do you have a reading/learning disability? How do I say “custody battles are definitely bad and worse than divorces, and legal marriage clearly doesn’t prevent custody battles or guarantee the father will get treated fairly” and you turn that into “I BETTER POST 400 PAGES OF HOW BAD FAMILY COURT IS”.

We KNOW family court is bad. That’s why we’d like men to 1) be warned that they’ll probably have to deal with it with 2016 girls so they can prepare themselves best as possible (even if it’s just mentally preparing for the battle/loss, which a guy like Brad didn’t do), and 2) avoid stacking another nightmare (legal divorce) on top of it.

All your baby mama has to do to nullify all your good fathering in a legal marriage is make up a few false allegations that she knows she’ll never be called out on and will be encouraged by all her friends and family and lawyers to make up “for the sake of the kids” and now you’re dealing with the same biased family court you’d have dealt with single, but you also have asset loss, alimony, etc to deal with on top of it.

“Not all divorces require huge, nasty, protracted custody fights. Not all divorces require and order/judgment for support.”

Well hey, not ALL tigers will bite your face off, so we might as well tell men not to worry about tigers or warn them they have teeth.

“One is possibly much worse than the other.”

The worst scenario would be having to deal with family courts AND divorce courts. So ditch the divorce courts by not getting legally married.

“I am not sure that there is an answer to the issues that he is probing at with respect to kids though.”

That’s why I’d like to have an actual discussion instead of spending 10 pages every time I bring it up just defending why it’s even worth having a discussion ABOUT once the OMGs get their sensitive feefees hurt over men not just listening to them without putting their opinion through the same analysis we’d put anyone else’s opinion through.

“Marriages work pretty good for 4-7 years or so even if you are doing it wrong. So will any other alternate arrangement. How would you field test this? By the time you get feedback, you are already SOL (or lucky).”

I hear Europe has a system where men and women get together for a period of time and then split amicably. It’d be nice to discuss the pros/cons of what they’re doing and see how we can apply red pill and attraction knowledge to it.

But we’d need the OMGs to stop flooding the thread with their tantrums to actually pull that off.

“The screening advice is probably good, but to know how good you would have to look at some statistics rather than anecdotes.”

According to the OMGs we should just ignore statistics cuz stats are for pussy risk-avoiders who will abandon their kids lol

@having a bad day
“by merely having a kid = you are subject to THOSE TERMS… unless you are ‘legal contract married’…lol… then they don’t apply until your frivorce…lol…”

We know. It’s a big risk either way. But statistically legal monogamous marriage doesn’t prevent that exact same risk (and makes it more difficult to keep attraction long-term), and no one can name a benefit to it, so there’s no reason to add marriage/monogamy on top of the already high risks that exist just from having a kid.

If you could say “but if you get legally married then none of those family court risks will apply and there’s a 99% chance that you will get full custody of the kids”, then cool, I wouldn’t be debating this at all.

But that’s not what the trends show. The trends show that in 2016 family court will be just as biased against you if you’re legally married as if you aren’t, and if it isn’t then all she has to do is follow the pushing of her peers and family and lawyer and make a false accusation and you will be exactly as fucked as if you didn’t get legally married, except now you’re dealing with a divorce on top of it.

“who would voluntarily sign up for THAT shit?”

Guys who want kids. Because at least you reproduce and that’s a beneift. VS legal marriage/monogamy, where there’s no actual benefit that you can’t get without those things. Risk/reward. Family court is a big risk, but it comes with the reward of “you had offspring at least”. Legal marriage comes with no reward and statistically less and less every year.

“legal marriage has a benefit of putting you higher on the child custody food chain than a ‘baby daddy’ if things go bad…”

In the past this was probably true. In 2016 women just have to hint at a false accusation and you will have odds as bad as the baby daddies. Legal marriage will NOT give you any guarantee that you’re going to have a fair time in family court. Ask the guys getting divorced in the past couple years who’s wives have slandered them. Our culture used to be skeptical of women’s accusations, now it’s sexist not to believe them and white knights are lined up around the block to virtue signal. Our culture encourages women’s emotional id-behavior, and encourages them to lie to get their way because there is no punishment for it. That’s why you have girls in the back of a cab who want to smoke, lying to people that the cabby tried to rape them when he tells them it’s against the last to smoke.

“You can’t run away from child support. They will make you pay.

that’s Blaximus’ whole point to YaReally… you can’t mitigate that risk…”

Why is it so hard for people to understand that we aren’t trying to run away from child support? We are trying to have the best odds possible to be WITH the kid long-term. This is unbelievably retarded. We KNOW family court is risky, that’s why we want to warn men to expect it to probably happen whether they’re married or not and to understand that their legal marriage will do fuck all to prevent them from being raped by family courts.


Why not try something new?

Like what?

I mean, I’m getting a bit frustrated with this whole affair because YaReally keeps just going after guys for some random-ass thing instead of coming up with ideas or listening to ideas.”

Trent Lane, Anonymous Reader and I TRIED to get a discussion going between us in the original marriage war, but the OMGs shit all over the chances of THAT actually going anywhere. You can catch a bunch of it the “something new” that I think is worth discussing here:

“-As soon as you have a child whose life you are the slightest involved in, the state has you over the barrel if anything goes wrong with the relationship with the mother.”

Agreed. I’ve never ever said anything against this and have actually pointed this out multiple times. We KNOW that. We KNOW the child is a leverage point that you can’t get around and it comes with risks and that if you want kids you CANNOT avoid these risks.

Our point is that other risks are voluntary, like divorce. There’s no reason to stack more risks on top of the ones that are mandatory to have a child.

“-Women currently have large cultural forces disincentivising staying in a relationship with a man longterm.”

This is my point. So we should prepare men by warning them that they’ll probably face a custody battle at some point, married or not, in 2016 relationships and ideally find better ways to make relationships work long-term.

“So now what? The only thing you can do is discuss strategies to try and make the relationship have as little chance of blowing up as possible. No other way forward exists.”

Agreed. That’s what I’ve been trying to do for 5 articles now.

Marriage clearly doesn’t increase the odds of a relationship not blowing up anymore, the stats show that and will get worse. But we know focusing on attraction and triggering hypergamy help keep relationships together…that’s why MMSL and dread helps fix dead bedrooms and restore relationships. So why not apply MMSL, but minus the legal risks of divorce so the only legal risks you have are the family court ones.

Simple logic.

“YaReally derides a ‘just be alpha 24/7’ mentality”

No I don’t. It’s a fine mentality. Just like “just win, bro” is a good mentality for winning a football game. But I don’t think many teams would make it far if they weren’t training and running plays/strategies and studying and experimenting on top of that “just win, bro” mentality. That doesn’t provide anything to actually discuss and there are risks that can be mitigated (like not legally marrying).

“because failure has started to be no option at all.”

All the more reason men shouldn’t be legally marrying to have kids and should be looking for alternative strategies.

“I wrote a bunch last thread about how the formation of a unique family culture, wherein each member has unique daily responsibilities, is incredibly important in making a functional and stable family unit.”

Sentient can have this when he bangs strippers in hotel rooms on his business trips. There’s no reason a non-legally married pLTR can’t look exactly like Blaximus’ relationship with a unique family culture and daily responsibilities stability etc

“I also brushed on how you might screen for a woman who is capable of forming such a unit with you. None of this really got taken up into the conversation at all, we were just back to yelling about the same crap.”

Check the link above and this one:

You’ll have to filter through all the nonsense bullshit around it where I have to justify just having this fucking discussion to the pearl-clutching OMGs.

I’d love to actually get a discussion going with you and others, but when I have 5 OMGs hounding me arguing pedantic semantics and arguing with strawmen positions that I don’t actually hold and posting videos of ghettos going “THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO ANYONE WHO HAS KIDS IN A NON-LEGAL MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGE” like the fucking sky is falling, it’s hard to actually have any kind of back and forth like Trent Lane, Anonymous Reader and I were starting to have till it was consumed by the OMG swarm.

That’s the funniest part to me, they can’t even just let it happen, the discussion so actively triggers their ego that they can’t just scroll past lol

on September 28, 2016 at 4:57 pm
Original Link

“I rest my case.”

Those quotes were about you guys defending legal marriage, none of you actually contributed anything toward why a pLTR wouldn’t look exactly like your current relationship. You had literally nothing for why scribbling your name on a piece of paper would make your wife any more likely to stay with you than not, except “love” which is a silly concept that doesn’t hold up to red pill analysis.

Don’t blame me because your case is weak when held up to scrutiny.

“But I did post up the list that this guy is DETERMINED to just blatantly ignore”

I went through your list of advice point by point above.

on September 28, 2016 at 5:03 pm
Original Link

lol wtf is wrong with you? Why do you keep trying to make the case that family court is bad? We all KNOW it’s bad. I’ve said it’s bad since the beginning. Legally married guys end up in that guy’s position too.

Literally what is your point in posting about how bad family court is? Do you even know what your own argument is anymore?

on September 28, 2016 at 5:37 pm
Original Link

“but telling men to walk into the pretty laser beams and everything will be OK because they were prepared for them with pieces of paper for defense.”

I’ve never said there was guarantees, I’ve specifically said repeatedly that what I’m saying is NOT guaranteed, just an increase in the odds. You guys are the ones who translate that to “YAREALLY IS SAYING GUYS WILL BE INVINCIBLE IF THEY DO THIS” with your strawman black & white shit.

Why are you guys so against letting men know that their odds of divorce and family court battles are higher in 2016? Why do you want to keep men in the dark so they can get completely blindsided?

“You appear now to have “improved” the model by suggesting that men need to simply learn to accept that walking into the pretty laser beams is the price of having kids.”

That has been my position from the start that I’ve said repeatedly. Your misinterpretation down that “but having kids at all is a risk” tangent is your own strawman of my position. I know having kids is a risk, I’ve said it a thousand times including multiple times in those discussion links I just posted. But that’s the price to pay to have a kid, so there’s at least a benefit to those risks. There is none with legal marriage.

I haven’t “improved” it, you’re just finally slowing down to actually read what I’ve said since the beginning.

“What issue? Pick a cohesive narrative and stick with it for more than one comment.”

I’ve had a cohesive narrative since the beginning. Andy, Anonymous Reader, Trent Lane, MrT, etc have all had no problems following along. You guys speed-reading through looking for the next sound-bite to warp and argue against are the ones that are throwing cohesion out of whack.

“Having children is better with a pair bond between the parents.

Pair Bond: a partnership between a mating couple serving primarily in the cooperative rearing of young.”

You can pair bond without a legal contract. People did it for thousands of years. If I lit your marriage contracts on fire you wouldn’t all leave your wives and children.

Why do you guys think so lowly of red pill men lol

on September 28, 2016 at 5:44 pm
Original Link

“Because it’s, ya know, the point. Or at least it was the point when you were discussing mitigating risk.”

We already KNOW it’s bad, that’s why we’re trying to discuss mitigating it. Is there anyone here who thinks we DON’T think family court is bad? lol wtf am I in bizarro land

on September 28, 2016 at 5:51 pm
Original Link

“In some states and a few CN provinces”

Which is why we should have the discussion and a guide for men to not have kids IN those states. Big Al just assumed common law marriage was EVERYWHERE, which showed he didn’t do even the bare minimum research he should have done before getting legally married. And he’s on a red pill forum. And no one even quizzed him on it.

“Again, there isn’t a way around this unless you change the law itself”

Or be aware of the laws and don’t settle in those states.

“If you want to do that, become an MRA”

Why not do both? Do what you can to change the laws but until they’re changed warn and teach men what they’re actually getting into.

“Do both, and you’re smack dab in the middle of the same shit, whether you are legally married or not”

Only in certain states.

“Your mitigation, at best, mitigates a tiny portion of the fallout if the shit goes down. Otherwise you’re stuck in the same shit as everyone else is”

So the mentality is “if you’re going to lose $100, you might as well lose your entire life savings”? Why not just lose the $100?

on September 28, 2016 at 5:52 pm
Original Link

““Your mitigation, at best, mitigates a tiny portion of the fallout if the shit goes down. Otherwise you’re stuck in the same shit as everyone else is””

And on top of it, what I’m recommending also follows attraction/hypergamy principles (that we all know work and fully accept), as I’ve stated before, because they trigger the same things dread game and MMSL (which we recommend to men to fix their relationships, so clearly it works) trigger, minus the risks of the legal marriage.

So it’s lowering the risks while increasing the likelihood of the woman staying attracted long-term. That’s a win/win.

on September 28, 2016 at 6:06 pm
Original Link

“You won’t be blindsided, yet you will still be fucked in ways you never thought possible.”

That’s the risk of having a kid. But if you want a kid then you’re taking that risk whether you’re legally married or not. So what’s your problem with warning men to expect this to probably happen in their 2016 relationships at some point? Why are you against just WARNING men?

“Once you escape that situation, you are never in a rush to get back into it.”

We are trying to help guys AVOID being in that situation. But the reality is in 2016 more and more men are being forced INTO that situation, whether legally married or not, so why not WARN THEM that that’s a real possibility in 2016???

“I must not understand the definition of: Discuss. Maybe that’s the disconnect.”

Apparently it means “young guys should just listen to what I say even if I’m rambling about shit that isn’t related and then pat me on the back without questioning anything I say because I’m old”

“No, it means that you’re fooling yourself if you’re believe you’re really reducing any risks. You’re not.”

If you don’t live in a common law state then you’re reducing the risk of asset loss and alimony. And increasing the odds of avoiding court because you’re doing things that trigger hypergamy/attraction longer by not putting yourself in a situation where she’s on a pedestal and your options are limited etc

“Almost. There’s Sweden, however. In Sweden, child support payments are minimal because they are cost-based and not income-based, and custody tends to be 50/50. So marriage rates are pretty low, break rates are pretty high for non-marital parents, and they share custody and there is almost no child support, by North American standards.

Maybe move to Sweden?”

Or we could discuss what works/doesn’t work in the Sweden model and how we can improve on it using what the red pill community understands about maintatining attraction/hypergamy long-term (which legal marriage and promising monogamy don’t do since you can’t negotiate attraction).

on September 28, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Original Link

It’s hilarious that we all accept the concepts Rollo has written about and that have been thoroughly field-tested:

– hypergamy doesn’t care about anything except her getting the highest value guy her hindbrain believes she has access to

– not pedestalizing her helps keeps attraction

– demonstrating being attractive to other women helps keep attraction

– dread helps keep attraction

– attraction cannot be negotiated

– women love conditionally

– legal marriage contracts don’t increase or guarantee prolonged attraction

– society is letting women run wild and eat pray love culture is influencing them to not stay in relationships

– masculine behavior is now demonized, if not by her then by her friends/family/social media friends

– the less dependent you are on the outcome the more attractive you are

– hypergamy doesn’t care how good a father you are, if she’s done being attracted to you, she’ll lie cheat and steal to get the kids from you (war brides etc)

– MMSL is a set of things that increase dread and increase attraction in a dead relationship

– the more attraction you have, the less likely you are to end up IN family court

We all sit around fluffing eachother’s dicks over how we have this red pill stuff all solved…but when I say “okay so let’s logically combine all those ironclad rules we know are true and make a system out of it, a pLTR where you automatically keep attraction up higher than a marriage because marriage stifles the shit on that list and being single increases it”, SUDDENLY EVERYONE LOSES THEIR FUCKING MINDS.

Suddenly none of those rules apply anymore, suddenly none of that works, suddenly NAWALTS everywhere.

lol I guess the red pill only applies when it’s nice and safe to experiment with…the second the risks go up it’s “FUCK ALL THAT HYPERGAMY AND LOVE NOT BEING NEGOTIATED SHIT!! MARRIAGE IS THE WAY TO GO BRUH!!!! LOVE CONQUERS ALL!!!”

Just a bunch of surface level red pill going on.

on September 28, 2016 at 6:19 pm
Original Link

That should read “and being in a pLTR increases it”, before the SUDDENLY LOSES THEIR FUCKING MIND part. Gotta watch my exact wording here and all

on September 28, 2016 at 6:41 pm
Original Link

“None of this has anything to do with dread or anything. The original point was RISK MITIGATION.”

Being in an arrangement that makes it easier to trigger attraction and hypergamy to avoid being in court/legal battles, VS an arrangment that makes it more difficult to trigger them, IS risk mitigation.

“Pointing out that the risks will be mostly the same”

Mostly is not exactly the same as. And unless you disagree with everything Rollo, CH, PUAs, etc have ever written on attraction, then a pLTR helps increase your odds of keeping her hypergamy triggered and keeping her attracted and having less chance of the legal battle.

“It’s not that different in the end.”

Ask the guy paying alimony if he’d rather NOT be paying alimony, he probably thinks it’s a bit different.

“We’re talking child support and the possible losses associated with THAT, since alimony does not apply to unmarried males.”

We already know there are losses and risks associated with THAT. We’ve known that since the start. That’s why we’re looking for a better system than the current one which triggers those risks a significant amount of the time, and moreso as the trend continues.

“Keep your eyes on the ball.”

Agreed. The first step is actually being allowed to acknowledge the ball EXISTS and that it’s worth discussing.

“dude, why u debate these omg’s when you haven’t yet done that FR breakdown you said you’d do a week ago lol”

lol ’cause it’s more fun and faster and I forget who wants me to breakdown what and where those threads are ’cause these pages fill up so fast.

on September 28, 2016 at 7:00 pm
Original Link

“Rollo’s work has zero to do with what you are proposing INITIALLY ( that has been morphing and twisting and changing constantly ).”

What I’ve been proposing has remained consistent since the start. You’ve just been throwing yourself into so many strawman hissy-fits over it that it seems like it’s been changing. That’s why I can keep typing these up, because I’m just repeating the exact same point over and over and over while you come up with new misinterpretations to get upset over.

on September 28, 2016 at 7:18 pm
Original Link

“Made up premises:

-a pLTR where you automatically keep attraction up higher than a marriage

-stifles the shit on that list

-and being single increases it

Doesn’t follow logic.”

These all follow red pill logic. I’ve explained it a thousand times but here you go for the thousandth time:

Legal marriage and monogamy limit a man’s options and increase his outcome dependence and increase the punishment he’ll have for doing the things that keep attraction up.

That doesn’t mean he CAN’T keep attraction up, but he’s making it significantly harder for himself for no actual benefit since you can’t negotiate attraction.

“Do you really think you are?”

Yes. But I realize you OMGs won’t let the discussion happen and will prevent significant progress in bettering the future for men and their future children so I don’t expect to make much progress in this forum with you guys pearl-clutching and misinterpreting everything. The divide between guys who go out and deal with LTRs with <25yo 8+/10s in modern day, and guys who don't.

"Yeah, the divide between the YSG’s and the OMG’s is pretty huge. I think that sucks here. I Think that we should ought to be on the same team. No such luck there……"

It'd be nice, but apparently any discussion of anything that isn't the OMGs way is evil.

Everyone loves the red pill but the second I say "okay, so let's take all of this to it's logical conclusion and discuss what would happen if you avoided as many unnecessary legal risks as possible and focused entirely on the principles we all know and accept work: focusing 100% on triggering her hypergamy, which the dynamics of a pLTR do much easier than the dynamics of a monogamous legal marriage"


Everyone loves LARPing about the red pill here, and talks about how they're immune to social conditioning…but they're scared to even TALK about how far the rabbit hole might ACTUALLY go if we throw all social conditioning off and triple-down on the iron clad core concepts of hypergamy/attraction that we've all been reading here for 5 years.

on September 28, 2016 at 7:19 pm
Original Link

“Congratulations. You have swayed Ya Really enough that he is now not only espousing much of your point of view, he’s claiming it was his idea all along and you gave him shit over it.”

Like I said:

“What I’ve been proposing has remained consistent since the start. You’ve just been throwing yourself into so many strawman hissy-fits over it that it seems like it’s been changing. That’s why I can keep typing these up, because I’m just repeating the exact same point over and over and over while you come up with new misinterpretations to get upset over.”

Feel free to go back and check the archives.

on September 29, 2016 at 12:12 pm
Original Link

“Your rabbit hole is deeper and you want to put that on us rather than having to be more adaptable in your point in life than us.”

No I was offering the OMGs a chance to provide some of their amazing OMG wisdom they always talk about no one wanting to hear. All you guys provided was stuff we already know, stuff other men have already taught or teach, “love” lol, and squashing the discussion telling men not to bother trying to improve their odds. So I guess we’ve reached the end of what unique amazing perspective you’re able to provide on the subject. Thanks for the help, feel free to sit back and just watch men discussing better options now.

Basically: I was just being nice lol I didn’t think you guys would contribute much that we didn’t already know and you proved me right.

“As for the new “model”, the reason we can’t come up with a good one is because there isn’t one”

Maybe, but that’s what they said about pickup/attraction before PUAs codified something no one thought was codifiable.

There’s no harm in discussing options. We consciously understand attraction/hypergamy better than the Blue Pill days and TONS of ironclad rules suggest there are better options than legal monogamous marriage. MMSL ALONE indicates that the legal monogamous marriage route doesn’t actually help keep attraction and the things that a pLTR (whether you actually bang other girls or not, but you’re not as outcome dependent and in scarcity/pedestalizing, naturally triggering dread etc) are what MMSL tries to duplicate.

There’s always a better way. Or maybe there ISN’T, but we should at least be able to discuss the pros/cons and why certain things will/won’t work with better logic/discussion than “IT JUST WON’T BRO LOOK AT THIS VIDEO OF GUYS IN THE GHETTO SHOOTING EACHOTHER UP” lol

Like I’d love any of the OMGs to go through the discussiong Anonymous Reader, Trent Lane and I were having that I posted to Forge and actually explain why, logically, each of the points won’t work. Not throw 10 more pages of “BUT LOOK AT THE THINGS THAT’LL HAPPEN IF IT *DOESN’T* WORK!!!!” But actually bring logical discussion to the table that’s based in what we all know about how attraction/hypergamy work, and where the plan has flaws, so we can tweak them.

“I guess the question I have is does Ya think that relationship game as played by OMGs won’t work on the 2016 woman in her mid-20s?”

As I’ve said since the beginning, the nature of women hasn’t changed, so ya, being on your purpose and not fearing failure (which is different from acknolwedging that failure is possible) etc are all good things and help with attraction. But a lot of the stuff they keyboard jockey will work (like making her get rid of her orbiters, social media, etc) will be twisted into accusations of abusive, if not by the girl herself (they may actually keep her attracted, just like they want), then by her social circles, family, peers, etc who WILL be an influence in her life and WILL make your relationship significantly more difficult.

Marriages/LTRs don’t happen in a bubble in 2016. In the past maybe you only had to deal with a handful of people in her close local social circles but now you have her and thousands of people in her life (assuming she’s a <25yo 8+/10 which is what we want men to settle with ideally).

"Yet I also think the OMGs simply cannot understand what it’s like without putting their dicks into one of these young hotties."

More important: they cannot understand what it's like to monogamously LTR these girls. Because they haven't done it. They don't know what actually being the "significant other" with one of these girls looks like over an extended time period, the way the YSGs trying to LTR these girls are doing and finding these problems with (like all the dudes on the TRP forums etc).

"I truly have no idea what I’d do as a younger guy."

The reality is a lot of men will have a biological drive to pass on their genes. I'm just looking to discuss safer options for doing that and raising that offspring in a stable 2-parent household where the guy is triggering hypergamy with the lowest possible risks (again family court is still a huge risk, but the benefit is getting offspring from that risk, and NOT promising monogamy/legal marriage triggers hypergamy as we all know from the ironclad rules of attraction/hypergamy Rollo has discussed a thousand times here)

"IMO, Monogamy/marriage etc. only REALLY matter for men who know that they want to have kids, 100%. "

Right. My plan is for red pill men who decide "okay, I have my finances together, I have my health together, I've done most of what I want to do with pickup, I've banged a bunch of girls and learned what I like and don't like in relationships, I've learned how to Speed Screen and vett girls properly, and I have a quality girl that would be a great baby mama…but I don't want to pointlessly risk all my assets and make it harder to keep her hypergamy triggers and keep her attracted long-term. So what can I do?"

Whereas Blaximus and the OMGs seem to think red pill men like that are the same as the ghetto loser who's trying to duck out on child support while he racks up different 10 baby mamas. Because apparently red pill men who spend most of their life focusing on self improvement and sticking to long-term goals and building dedication to stuff like sarging, the gym, their careers, working on fixing their shit, etc, will suddenly all turn into losers trying to abandon their kids.

But I guess some of us just think better of their fellow man.

"This all seemed so distant to me, but then stopping and thinking about it, if I wanted to have kids, and found a woman I wanted to have kids with, what would I do? I say I’d never get married but so have hundreds of other men."

This is why I'm bringing it up. We hit Rollo's 5 year anniversary here, a ton of great writing. But we don't have a long-term application for it, except inside of a rigged system that provides no actual benefit (can't negotiate love, women love conditionally, dread enhances attraction while mono/legal arrangements reduce dread, etc etc).

So we'll have all these guys who decide "okay that was fun but now I want to settle down and have a kid, and I've got this quality girl I've vetted, and I have all my shit in order, and I want to be an amazing father", and then we're sending them into the rigged legal marriage monogamy system and wondering why a bunch of them lose attraction (just like lots of Naturals who still enter that system) and will end up right back here again, but now as divorcee single fathers who only get to see their kids a couple times a month.

I think we can offer them a better system. We KNOW on every level that legal marriage and promising monogamy does NOT guarantee a girl's long-term attraction/hypergamy. We KNOW that it's all that other stuff that keeps that attraction/hypergamy, and that stuff not only doesn't require legal monogamous marriage but legal monogamous marriage make it harder to DO that stuff.

So why not have a discussion on just running with the red pill ball by blowing the lid off the whole thing, letting go of the shit that's holding men back, discarding the clunky old frame, and streamlining things into a more efficient higher-odds lower-risk form.

The fact that we can't even have a discussion about this because guys who aren't trying to LTR <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 want to keep squashing the discussion and telling men "either do it the hard way or don't do it at all", is unfortunate. It would be nice if they could simply let a discussion between red pill happen so we could make some progress where maybe at Rollo's 10 year we actually have a solution for men instead of the same rigged system that, as statistics show, will continue to tank harder and have lower and lower success rates outside of the UMC/religious clique that Joe the Plumber wasn't born into.

on September 29, 2016 at 12:41 pm
Original Link

“YaReally’s assessment would make sense in this light. That even strong, Red Pill Alpha men can’t keep hot <25 y.o women locked down these days because they aren't willing to give up their tingles, real and digital alike, from other Alphas or attention from Orbiters."

This is my point. Why do we suddenly have to increase the intensive of the Time Bridges we do infield now? Why do hank, Culum, etc find that girls flake like crazy if they don't meet up within 48 hours? With no fucks given? Why do girls tell Blaximus even in a hypothetical experiment that they wouldn't give up their social media for a guy?

Because we have to hit them harder now, with more emotional impact, and trigger their hypergamy even HARDER, longer-term, to keep the attraction going. Because they're being bombarded with other options on a level the OMGs never had to deal with. And most of those options ARE shitty but the girls' hindbrains don't KNOW that until they interact with them, 'cause each of those guys is putting on their best front and women need to shit-test a guy and have him fail those tests for them to lose attraction (unless you want to scoop up some awesome 30+yo wall-aged women who've learned for the most part that those guys are lame by riding the cock carousel for 10+ years, which isn't what we want for men).

But what are we doing? Pushing guys into legal monogamy where girls feel like they're missing out on all those other options (making them more intriguing/mysterious), while making her the center of our world (you give up all your options, she doesn't give up hers, because that's the deal in 2016, you're not going to get a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 to delete all of her social media and quit her job working with other men and avoid all men in her social circles), and handicap a guy's ability to get other girls (ie – stay attractive and keep those attractive subcomms), while increasing his outcome dependence needing the relationship to work (since he's legally signed contracts and NEEDS it to work because of the voluntary severe punishments he took on when he could have just risked family court punishments instead which are horrible too, but 1 bad things is less than 2 bad things and taking on the 2 bad things comes with no benefit since you can't negotiate attraction).

Like, what? That's why I say we're still doing surface level shit. The Red Pill either works or it doesn't. These concepts either work or they don't. MMSL works because these concepts work and MMSL triggers dread/attraction/hypergamy.

So if the thing that matters is triggering dread/attraction/hypergamy, why not focus on ironing out the nuances that would be involved in an arrangement that makes those things easier to trigger, partly by coming with lower risk and better odds, discards the chains and "voluntarily playing the game on Hard mode" that come with legal monogamous marriage, and discuss coming up with an arrangement that flows WITH the red pill and WITH our biology and WITH women's biology and WITH all these principles we know and have field tested about hypergamy/attraction.

Why fight against the current? Why not flow with it in a calculated strategic conscious manner using what we already know are ironclad rules about attraction/hypergamy?

Or at least have that discussion and see where there are holes in the plan. "THE PUNISHMENT IF IT GOES WRONG IS BAD" is not a hole in the plan, that punishment is there in legal monogamous marriage too. What are the holes in the actual execution of the plan, which is what Anonymous Reader, Trent Lane and I were trying to discuss between the OMGs flipping their shit for 11 pages.

"I'm in the same place as scrib right now: "Like I’m all over the place with this shit.""

It won't be relevant to you for a long time (just like I'll have another 10 years minimum before it's relevant to me), you have tons of girls to meet and have fun with before you settle down.

But there'll come a point where you go "okay I want kids, but every guy I know is in some stage of divorced, divorcing, deadbedroom, cuckolding, or cheated on (because as the stats show the success rate will be even LOWER by the time you decide to settle)…I don't want to enter that system, is there a better way?" and all the Manosphere will have for you is: "nope, just roll those dice and be alpha 24/7"

I think we can do better than that.

"YaReally isn’t telling guys that they’ll all be fine with pLTR, but we all know that guys are gonna go down that hallway regardless. Why not throw them a reflective codpiece so their big swinging dicks don’t get clipped by an errant laser?"

This. Or at least be able to fucking DISCUSS it without having to justify why we should care about those guys dicks getting clipped off when they're probably fucked anyway.

It's like if Mystery had to spend 11 pages trying to justify "well why SHOULD we try to come up with a system codifying picking up women, those guys are fucked ANYWAY and they might get an STD so just shut up stop talking I don't wanna hear it you're either born with it or you aren't that's the way it is and will always be".

Like holy fuck, let us at least discuss it and compare notes and find OUT if these things don't hold up under logical analysis and debate by red pill men who understand attraction/hypergamy. The reality is that what I'm saying makes SENSE from a place of understanding attraction/hypergamy. What I'm suggesting triggers the same shit MMSL triggers and guys needing MMSL shows that legal monogamous marriage not only doesn't trigger these things but makes them actively harder to trigger long-term. Why fight the current instead of swimming with it using what we all know works?

"Blax and SJF
Same question for you guys…but if the only thing you can say is “never be afraid, guys don’t want to do hard work” this is us TELLING YOU that we know it’s hard work but want to do it anyway (have kids at some point)."


"And we all agree with you guys that hand, frame, dread, setting boundaries, and all that good shit that triggers attraction still works. We all agree that every man here should be working towards Masculine Self Improvement, and whatever other proper nouns you want to throw in SJF. It’s disingenuous to say PUAs here do not advocate that."

Yup. Hear that SJF?

"But the problem is that vanir represents the mainstream culture these days. Setting boundaries and having hand and being the head of household will ALWAYS trigger attraction, IN THAT MOMENT, but how long until her friends, family, buzzfeed, Cosmo, starts telling her that’s abusive?"

Actually that's a good point. Imagine you find this awesome girl but she has 50 Vanir's in her life txting her daily (remember this is a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016, not your wife in the 70s with a couple orbiters dialing up her rotary phone). You think you're going to pull that shit off for 18+ years, through thick and thing, through her unhaaaappy stages and fights, with 50 Vanir's in her life and 10 of them are her close personal friends/family that she discusses her LTR problems with?

The OMGs response will probably be "just find a girl without Vanirs in her life", which brings us back to the point that they don't understand because they aren't LTR'ing <25yo 8+/10s in 2016: ALL <25yo 8+/10s have a BUNCH of Vanirs in their life that they WON'T get rid of, those Vanirs are their friends, family, peers, social circle, work circles, social media circles, anonymous internet forum circles, etc

So saying "just find a girl without Vanirs in her life" is the equivalent of saying: human population stop reproducing entirely.

"No one is advocating marriage, but we all agree a long term pair bond is best for children."

Agreed. No one wants absentee fatherism and what I'm trying to bring up for discussion follows attraction/hypergamy principles that we all know and accept and have field tested thoroughly and recommend in MMSL, better than legal monogamous marriage does (and we know legal monogamous marriage actively works AGAINST those things), and increases the odds of keeping her long-term attracted and AVOIDING being taken to family court in the first place.

on September 29, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Original Link

“I brought this up before – why are men so conditioned to (still) have kids given the one-sideness against men.”

The reality is most men are hardwired to want to pass on their genes at some point. This is kind of like the argument Tyler makes for PUA: “your buddies will tell you PUA is creepy, learning to hit on girls is creepy and weird…no, you know what’s creepy and weird? NOT learning to hit on girls. Because it’s not like these guys talking shit aren’t going to TRY to do it. They’re not going to NOT talk to girls, they’re still going to see a girl they’re attracted to and try to hit on her, they’re just going to be BAD at it. So you might as well learn to do it WELL.”

I would bet a LOT of MGTOWs/grasseaters would love to have kids and have those urges at some point, but don’t see a safe/sane path to doing it so they won’t do it. With the rapid changes in society from VR porn to women’s increasing entitlement, more and more men will check out and go the MGTOW/grasseaters route and sooner or later that’ll have an effect on society the way the grasseaters are having an effect on Japan. It MIGHT be a positive one, but probably not.

“How we go about procreating against evil that wished us FLAT OUT DEAD is up for debate, but we will always have the biological urge to do so, so we need to figure out a game plan.”

I say we already have the tools to subvert the system laid out in front of us. We just don’t have the optimal blueprint of what to do with them yet.

We know how to trigger attraction/hypergamy using red pill/game knowledge better than legal monogamous marriage could EVER trigger attraction/hypergamy. We know HOW to avoid LTRs breaking up, and it’s not with legal monogamous marriage, it’s with a solid understanding on attraction/hypergamy.

But when it comes to having kids suddenly everyone goes “NOPE, PUT DOWN THE TOOLS, JUST ROLL THE DICE”, or tells us to apply the tools in a world full of Vanirs where use of those tools is essentially illegal, and are surprised when this happens:

(…happens to guys trying to LTR <25yo 8+/10s in 2016, not to the OMGs and their wives from another era who didn't grow up with Vanirs everywhere)

Or hear it from Vanir's own mouth lol:

"A man “setting boundaries” for a grown ass woman is abusive. Inherently so. Sometimes women need outside help to get out of such a relationship – which is why many of you yahoos want to isolate women… and why attempts at isolation are the first danger signs that means a woman really needs to GTFO ASAP.

This site, or at least the comment thread, reads like a “sociopaths handbook for controlling victims”."

This is the message your <25yo 8+/10 is hearing from all angles in 2016. Not by people she disregards as losers, but by her close family, friends, people she goes to for advice, etc

A lot of guys who AREN'T LTRing <25 8+/10s and engaging with her entire social circles and trying things and seeing how those things are interpreted by her circles, think Vanir is just some funny anomally to laugh at and poke here. Because here he's the out of place 1% guy.

But they don't get how common and widespread Vanir IS in 2016 and how MANY Vanirs are in these girls lives in various forms (from orbiters to her BFFs to other close influences), saying exactly what he's saying to us, but to them, and a lot of them are people she trusts and VALUES the opinions of and a lot of what he's saying is stuff she's been socially conditioned to WANT to hear ("I AM special, I DO deserve better, I DO need to go Eat Pray Love, this IS abusive, I AM unhaaaaappy").

Think you can fight that influence for 18+ years? Maybe. But that's a hell of a set of dice to roll without minimizing risks wherever possible and mentally preparing for the high risk of her bailing at some point and possibly having to go to family court (instead of being told to just follow the old system and it'll work out).

Even mentally preparing for a the possibility of having to have a family court battle over your kids can help lower the insane suicidal depression a guy who gets blindsided ends up in…just like a PUA who knows girls flake isn't as devestated when they flake as the AFC who no one told "hey, just so you know, in 2016 girls flake a LOT".

Why not educate men on what to realistically expect when they try to have kids with a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016.

@Average Frustrated Attorney
"The financial aspect of divorce is not the parade of horribles that both camps make it out to be. It’s not a great deal financially to be sure, but it’s not the economic apocalypse."

It also doesn't come with any benefits that you can't get without it. It's 100% risks on the man's side, and increases the difficulty of keeping long-term attraction/hypergamy triggered, for 0% benefit since you can't negotiate desire.

"if it's so difficult for a man to maintain frame in a conventional LTR due to unforeseen factors such as illness, job loss etc, how can a guy keep tight game in a pLTR?"

Give this a read to see what dynamics an pLTR triggers that a legal monogamous marriage doesn't:

A pLTR won't prevent you from getting sick or losing your job etc, but it triggers a ton of other things that might help a guy get through illness/job loss/etc easier (basically giving yourself more buffer room to fuck up because the arrangement itself helps trigger desire).

"What stops the woman's social circle from pushing back?"

Ideally you keep things discreet. You can get engaged, have a wedding, change your names, call eachother husband/wife, anything you want, none of them have to know that you didn't sign your name on a legal contract or that you banged a stripper from the hotel lounge on a business trip (your pLTR can be as minimal as you want, the point is not voluntarily agreeing to limit your options so that she knows there's a chance you COULD leave her, aka dread aka what MMSL creates, minus the legal contracts and "cheater" punishment if you get caught (compare the reaction to Tiger Woods getting caught with another girl VS a Russell Brand or Charlie Sheen))

"For example if the woman sees her friends getting divorce cash prizes and branch swinging, what stops her from vindictively extracting more provisioning from the guy?"

If you're not legally married to her, not sharing bank accounts, house is in your name, etc she can only do so much to you. Sure she can still fuck your life up, that's the risk you take having a kid at ALL (the benefit to that risk being having a kid), but you can at least minimize your risks compared to the traditional route.

"What stops her (when she's emotional and on her period) from hiring a PI to track you and get evidence of infidelity so she can paint you as a deadbeat dad in a child support court?"

She can absolutely do that. But she could do that when you're in a legal marriage and cheating (because you were attracted to some chick at your office), or she can just MAKE THAT SHIT UP now and everyone will take her side and believe her. I'd imagine in the 40s a woman would have a hard time getting anyone to give a shit that her husband is fucking his secretary/mistress on the side…but in 2016 all she has to do is say she feels like you're "distant" and that'll get turned into you being "emotionally abusive and probably cheating on her" anyway.

So might as well bank on the strategy that triggers her attraction/hypergamy better to hopefully avoid ending up in court in the first place, since family court will be against you either way. And save yourself the extra hassle of a divorce on top of it so you have a chance at recovering your life after. And be aware going in that in 2016 there's a good chance you might HAVE to deal with one of those court battles, so that you're mentally and financially prepared for it as best you can be, VS going in thinking "that won't happen to ME, I'm ALPHA BRO!" and getting blindsided unprepared.

But I like your questions. These are the types of questions I THOUGHT guys would ask when I first brought the subject up. Where you can now look at my response and go "but wait, what about this red pill dynamic that's been field tested and indicates that your thinking on this could have a hole in it" and I can go "that's an interesting point, thanks for bringing that up, let's look deeper at that hole and see if we can find nuances that will make it work or alternate paths around that hole"

So a sincere thanks for playing along with the discussion I've been trying to justify having here for over a month lol πŸ™‚

"I think Blaximus is warning the consequences of failure would be even higher for a non married guy because of societal programming."

Right, and I agree, but we already know that. The reality in 2016 is that:

1) the consequence of failure will be the same in 2016 because now we automatically Listen & Believe when women make up false accusations and they've learned there are no consequences TO making up false accusations and all the Vanirs in their life will be encouraging and pressuring them (including divorce lawyers convincing them that everyone does it and you'll do it to her if she doesn't do it to you and doesn't she care about the kids etc) TO make false accusations, so the little benefit that legal marriage might have had in the 40s no longer applies or is worth the risks to the rest of your life

and 2) other arrangements make it easier to keep triggering attraction/hypergamy…legal monogamous marriage works against a ton of ironclad attraction/hypergamy principles that we all know, accept, and have thoroghly field-tested, and that Rollo has written about in-depth for 5 years, etc. If you keep attraction/hypergamy, she's less likely to leave you and you're less likely to have to deal with family court in the first place. So it's not just less risks, it's better odds of success based on following attraction principles (unless someone is suggesting hypergamy cares about your marriage license, etc).

So it's a two-pronged approach.

"Put yourself in the shoes of a blue pill judge who hears stories of a vengeful woman. Logic doesn't come into play, the judge doesn't see a dutiful father who attends PTA meetings and soccer practice. He/she sees a guy who refused to commit to the mother of his kid (no legal marriage papers) sleeping around on her. That's a shitty position to be in."

Unfortunately in 2016 that judge will be Vanir and that same vengeful woman, with a married monogamous spouse, simply has to make up a false accusation (that she'll be pressured into making by all the Vanirs around her) and that legally married husband will be in the exact same boat where none of his good deeds matter, except she ALSO cashes in on the divorce on top of it.

A vengeful woman is going to fuck you in family court no matter what. The best way of surviving family court is to not end up in it in the FIRST place…by being in a better relationship arrangement that makes it easier to trigger attraction/hypergamy (just like working on yourself and being your best and having good internals and game make it easier to trigger attraction/hypergamy…we don't recommend guys avoid learning game to increase their odds, but we recommend they avoid discussing a new system that might increase their odds? wut?).

And again, at least WARNING guys that in 2016 with a <25yo 8+/10 there's a good chance they'll end up in family court at some point, they can mentally/financially prepare for it, if nothing else, which even if they still lose the kids, would help the suicide rate of the guys who are blindsided unprepared.

"Would you have time to be fucking and gaming under women in such circumstances?"

You can do whatever you want. A pLTR can just be you fucking anonymous girls on your business trips with a fake name. You may choose to never fuck another girl at ALL…but because you didn't voluntarily promise monogamy, and legally sign a contract with massive consequences if you DO leave her, you get the benefits of having dread, minus the risks, which helps keep attraction/hypergamy triggered (as we all know from ironclad principles thoroughly tested and accepted in the red pill community, even by Rollo himself).

"A perceived player may be given a pass, but a player with kids will certainly be demonised."

Unfortunately in Listen & Believe 2016 culture full of Vanirs, no man can avoid being demonised even if he was legally married. So if you're fucked either way, why not choose a strategy that makes it easier to trigger/maintain attraction/hypergamy to ideally avoid family court?

"but I think the price for failure with your proposal could be steeper than a conventional divorce. It's like getting caught trying to game the system, it increases the severity of the punishment."

Unfortunately in Listen & Believe Vanir culture, I'd say the severity is already maxxed out, whether you're married or not. Sure "not ALL divorces", Blaximus knows some guys who got off scott-free, and I'm happy for them, but the trend for the average man is going downhill FAST and consistently outside of the UMC/religious clique. 5-10 years from now when <25yo 8+/10 2025 girls have even MORE options/entitlement/Eat Pray Love culture shoved down their throad, it's going to be even worse and we're STILL not going to have a better plan for red pill men.

But again thanks for bringing up discussion points. These are the types of things that are worth talking about and I'm open to discussion on my responses or pointing out holes in my logic. This is the type of discussion I THOUGHT would happen back when I first posted about this shit lol

"I see a bigger downside to having kids within a pLTR compared to an okay-ish upside (if it all goes according to plan)."

What downsides do you see besides the ones above? Let's discuss them and see if we can mitigate or find ways around them. That's what I'm looking for, in terms of discussion. What benefits do you see to having kids in a legal monogamous marriage that can't be had in a pLTR? Let's look at those benefits and see if they can be gotten outside of a legal monogamous marriage and brainstorm potentially better solutions than the one that is currenly failing harder and harder every year.

"Also I don't think the average Joe has the skill set, nor the desire to make it work."

In an ideal world we would also be encouraging men to follow the rest of the overall life strategy I was discussing with Trent Lane and Anonymous Reader in the links to my archive I linked earlier in this thread:

Instead of focus on career in your 20s (passing up all your easy social opportunities you'll have) then find a woman to legally monogamously marry in your 30s (with no real experience with women, trying to learn pickup at 30+)…

…instead, focus on pickup hardcore in your early 20s where you can waste a few years (lots of guys take a year to go travel or work shitty jobs for a few years anyway), then in your mid-20s focus on your career, but with lots of experience with women under your belt and your social skills fully optimal, so that when you're 35 you have your shit together PLUS enough experience/skill with women to properly vet a long-term <25yo 8+/10 baby mama AND have experience managing the dynamics of pLTRs from your 20s to mid-30s, and have a baby in an arrangement that makes it as easy/natural as possible to continue to trigger attraction/hypergamy long-term.

That's the ideal strategy. We have to fill in a few gaps, like teaching men to Speed Screen (again the basics of that are laid out for discussion in that Trent Lane Anonymous Reader discussion in my archives that I linked earlier in this thread) and codifying long-term pLTRs and experimenting infield and looking at other systems (Europe, alt lifestyle scenes, etc) for what situations are likely to come up with the kids asking questions etc

But why not start some discussions to fill in those gaps? Instead of duct-taping the leaks on a broken system that's failing harder and harder every year and will continue to get worse?

"Props to you for trying to find a way to help the mass majority, but I suspect you could find a sure fire way to make a billion dollars and the majority would still find a way to balls it up."

Definitely. But just because not everyone will be Bruce Lee doesn't mean teaching men to fight is a waste of time, just because not everyone will be Arnold doesn't mean teaching men to lift is a waste of time, etc

Guys will still fuck it up, but I think if there's anyone that's likely to succeed at it, it's red pill men who take self-improvement and setting/achieving long-term goals through dedication and determination, who will be able to do it.

That's why I'm offended by the idea that all these red pill guys who dedicate their lives to self-improvement, the whole TRP forum etc, will all just become ghetto losers with no money dodging child support and knocking up a dozen baby mamas.

This is a plan for red pill men who are pro-actively improving themselves but are simply smart enough to understand that the marriage system is rigged against them inside the courtroom (Listen & Believe Vanir culture) AND outside of it (making it more difficult to keep attraction/hypergamy triggered long-term), and are looking for a strategy with lower risks and better odds (based on what we understand about attraction/hypergamy and what Rollo has written about for 5 years etc).

All I'm doing is taking the tools we know, understand, and accept, and saying: how about we draft up a blueprint for a better house, using these tools that create better structures than using our bare hands does, instead of hanging our tools off our belt whiel trying to build a statistically shitty structure with our bare hands for no benefit?

I'm just saying let's take what we know and REALLY apply it. Run that shit to the hilt and adhere to the ironclad principles that we all accept work on a smaller scale.

Or at least, let's dicuss the holes in that idea.

on September 29, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Original Link

““The biggest disconnect for single unmarried guys is understanding that a GF is not a wife.”


The vows don’t mean shit anymore. You need to get that through your head.”

This. Maybe it’s too much to accept that society could have changed that much since his time? Us guys in the field are surprised how fast things have changed too. No one saw these technological/cultural shifts coming, we are scrambling to adapt to them.

A guy can understand that a GF is not a wife, but that doesn’t matter…what matters is that <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 don't understand it, or don't care anymore.

Blaximus is arguing with phantoms.

on September 29, 2016 at 2:19 pm
Original Link

“YaReally I think you should give up trying to have a discussion on this here. This isn’t the place for it because of the mix of age groups here. Know that most lurkers below a certain age group understand what you’re advocating perfectly.”

Thanks for the support. I know there are a lot of guys lurking that agree with me but just don’t want to get chewed out by the OMGs for saying it. Sorry Blaximus, this isn’t a sock-puppet. This is just a guy who’s dealing with the realities I’m trying to get across to you OMGs.

And ya, I’ll probably take the discussion to the TRP forums or somewhere else, to actually get any progress on it. I wanted to offer the OMGs a chance to add some of that OMG insight, but they keep completely missing the ball and chasing their tails fighting strawmen and not being able to grasp basic concepts and logic, and when they DO try to drop their amazing OMG wisdom bombs it’s either shit that we already know (did anyone know family courts are BAD?? wow, revelation!!) or shit written by other men that we can already read, or nonsense social conditioning like “love” that’s been ripped apart by Rollo himself.

So the well of their amazing wisdom is tapped dry, that’s alright. I just sort of figured at some point they would get what we’re trying to discuss…I didn’t realize how hard to would be to get them to accept that things have changed. It’s surreal to me. I honestly thought from my first post on this topic that it would be an interesting deep discussion and everyone would contribute their perspective and we’d discuss it. I didn’t for a second imagine I’d spend 30 pages trying to explain that Vanir exists and has an influence on the <25yo 8+/10 women modern guys want to have kids with, or try to get them to accept that social media has an influence.

So surreal. But that's where the disconnect between guys actually in the field trying to LTR <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016 and guys who are armchair theorizing and using outdated experiences shows itself. They're literally incapable of understanding modern culture and clearly have no interest in understanding it.

"The advice they’re giving is the same old advice because they see women as being the same now as they were 20 years ago. They come at you like that because they legitimately think you’re inventing a new problem to solve that doesn’t exist."

Right. That's why I keep saying like, I GET their position, and I GET that it worked in their day, I GET that they maybe had a couple Vanirs in their girl's life to deal with, MAYBE…but even when I show them videos of an average chick account getting 1000 matches in 3 days, they can't comprehend that 1000 of those matches are new Vanirs in her life and she will collect MORE Vanirs and be SURROUNDED by Vanirs in 2016 on a scale that I don't know, maybe it's just too scary/depressing for them to accept.

And modern and future men will have to deal with this, and deal with this trending WORSE over time because this isn't going away. Soon girls will be able to go on VR "dates" with newly single Brad Pitt who will look them in the eyes (it'll FEEL like it), tell them everything they want to hear, and believe they're even MORE entitled to get Brad Pitt than they do now.

I'm trying to be pro-active about the realities of the future. I assumed this would be a good place to do that because of how much more LTR/kids/family focused the mindset is around here with the older guys, but I didn't know they themselves would be the roadblock to the discussion lol Fucking plot-twist.

"Unfortunately things have changed, like you and I know. The YSG and a few OMG that are embedded in 2016 culture can tell they have."

Field is king.

"We understood and absorbed your arguments a long time ago because what you write closely mirrors our experiences."

Hear that OMGs? That's why I don't shut up no matter how much you keep shitting on me. Because I'm RIGHT. And I KNOW I'm right. Because I'm out there like these guys are and we're all seeing and reporting and comparing notes on the same trends that you're oblivious to or in denial over.

"We can see that 2016 girls are an entirely different beast. Some of us had the opportunity to see this change happen real-time and we can see where the trends are headed because we are at the frontlines."

lol ya like I say I'm as surprised as anyone else that this took the path it did. Pickup back in 2005 was so different, some things were harder, some things were easier, but since social media, smartphones, Eat Pray Love culture, etc picked up steam exponentially fast, a bunch of shit has been flip-flopped on it's head.

The NATURE of women hasn't changed, but their influences, conditioning and the execution of the things that keep attraction going, has changed. And will probably change and evolve in the future too, and we'll have to adapt to those changes as well.

"Right now you’re trying to convince guys that are insulated from these realities that the frontlines have changed. They’ll NEVER understand."

Soon as I can convince Blaximus to pLTR that model staying with him…lol

"Not their biology but their social conditioning."

This. The OMGs seem to lump it all together, like "oh if you say they flake more then you're saying THEIR NATURE AND BIOLOGY HAS CHANGED". No, we're saying that their social conditioning and increase in technology etc removes a lot of the downsides to flaking (they have enough options for it not to matter, it's not considered rude to flake anymore, they know thirsty guys will keep chasing anyway, etc) and increase the encouragement TO flake (it's easier to flake via txt than via voice or in person because you can just send it and not think about it or engage in a discussion, Vanir's whispering in her ear, tons of stimulus coming in to make her forget how attracted she was in the moment (compared to the past where she had less stimulus and would keep attraction longer)) etc etc

Those aren't the nature/biology of women changing, those are the culture/social conditioning. That's what I've said from day one despite all the misinterpretations of my point or the lumping together of these things.

"I get the impression that we tend to underestimate the power of social conditioning but it’s just as important as biological impulses. If you can’t, the discussion will keep going around in circles."

And even if social conditioning is weak, the AMOUNT of SHITTY social conditioning and influences/engagement girls are being pummelled with from all angles 24/7 in 2016 is infinitely higher in quantity and frequency compared to the past.

"I suspect you won’t be able to because like other red pill truths, you’d have to experience it to appreciate it."

Looks like it lol I was really surprised by this whole thing, and that it's still going on. I can't even count how many times I thought "they HAVE to understand THIS, this is so SIMPLE and I've written it for the 100th time, this HAS to get through to them" and then gotten back the most insane side-tangent arguments against things that I don't even disagree with lol like wtf.

Anyway thanks for the support, it's been a pretty demoralizing uphill battle. I know it's just the usual 4-5 man OMG crew, but it's still nice when lurkers chime in with "just so you know, I get what you're saying" lol 'cause you're the guys I'm ACTUALLY trying to help with this discussion…I'm only trying to convince the OMGs so that they quit flooding the thread with their emotional arguments about why no man should ever try to increase their odds or lower their risks (even though that's exactly what learning game and red pill knowledge is FOR, and what they would do in ANY other scenario (business etc)).

on September 29, 2016 at 2:22 pm
Original Link

“It’s a reason isolating the victim is the number one goal of crazy sociopath everywhere.”

lol this is LITERALLY the exact thing I said is the first go-to that <25yo 8+/10 2016 chicks will hear when you try to "make them get rid of their orbiters just like I told my wife to not talk to that one orbiter she had back in 1802" as Blaximus advised. And if it's a girl saying this, she'll add "I had an abusive ex and he did that to ME" etc etc

on September 29, 2016 at 2:42 pm
Original Link

@Forge the Sky
“Blax still sees a marriage-like relationship as being the best bet, something where you can call her your wife, but that’s not really in opposition to anything you’re saying. ”

*I* know that. I’ve known that for 20 pages. Could you please inform Blaximus of that?

I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think he’d even disagree with most of what I’m saying if he could take a chill pill and stop getting emotionally riled up and actually logic out what I’m saying because most of it doesn’t even go against what he’s saying.

But I have to keep stressing “legal marriage” because the second I go down these guys’ side-tangents and stray from the exact same point I’ve been making since day one that EVERYONE ELSE understands and is tired of reading over and over while we wait for the OMGs to chill out and catch up to where we’re at, if I stray at ALL from that message they have an easier time twisting shit into strawmen (they’ve already taken my consistent point and accused me of having all these tangents to it that I’ve never actually had…like Michael J Fox telling someone standing still “Quit moving around so much!!!” with no idea that he’s the one shaking).

They already warped my consistent message into “See NOW YaReally agrees with you Sentient” lol They’ve gone so far off the deep end with strawmen that they’ve circled back around to what I’ve been saying from the very beginning.

So ya, I have to keep saying “legal monogamous marriage” until they calm down and actually catch up to the rest of us.

“pLTR’s come with their own risks. Any advocation of them should deal intensively with this.”

And we do. But the reality is a pLTR follows a LOT of accepted concepts around triggering attraction/hypergamy. And a pLTR CAN look exactly like a normal marriage minus the legal contract because you don’t HAVE to fuck around or you can fuck around on business trips, there’s no reason it HAS to affect your home life or your relationship or how seriously you take fatherhood…Sentient isn’t a worse father just because he fucks a stripper in an empty hotel room using a fake name on a business trip where he’s gone for the night anyway, that can be a pLTR if you want, or you can just choose not to fuck ANY other girls but still have the OPTION to (increasing dread, which triggers attraction/hypergamy etc).

And the reality is a legal monogamous marriage actively CONTRADICTS (or makes difficult) a LOT of accepted concepts around triggering attraction/hypergamy. From pedestalization to outcome dependence to boredom to scarcity to less incentive for the man to keep his shit together to her being more curious what she’s missing out on elsewhere etc etc

I’m just looking at this situation and saying “okay then, logically speaking, what would be a better plan of action to discuss, that DOES promote triggering attraction/hypergamy long term and makes it easier for Joe the Plumber to keep that <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted so she doesn't pull the family court trigger?"

"As I see it, if you’re raising kids you should likely limit it to cases where absolute discretion is assured, and where risk of catching feelings is minimal."

Agreed. A pLTR doesn't have to look like Hef's mansion or the ghetto slums where irresponsible idiots with no money are rawdogging random girls knocking up unvetted baby mamas and ducking child support. Red Pill men are better than that. This is a plan for red pill men who have their shit together and properly vet and want to have a kid and be a part of their life long-term with minimal risk and the highest odds of success and avoiding family court.

Some of us might TRY more of a Hef situation, like Tyler is trying, but that's down to the individual guy and what he wants his pLTR to look like. The point is to not voluntarily legally promise monogamy and make it difficult to run dread and increase your risks for no benefit.

"Rather than like, having a bunch of local fuckbuddies you hang out with when you can, we’re talking one-time flings with women who have their own LTR’s, or while away where the girl doesn’t even know your name."

lol ya Again I point to Sentient fucking strippers in hotel rooms with a fake name on his business trips. That would affect absolutely NOTHING in his life. There's a minor risk of catching an STD, but wrap it up and you're fine for the most part, and if you DO catch it, well, you didn't promise monogamy, so you're more likely to be forgiven a little indescretion as a Russell Brand or Tyler than as a Tiger Woods.

"I don’t see any hard objection to the arrangement, but I think it should be a lot more constrained than if you don’t have children."

I agree. This is the stuff we need to discuss and experiment with. I think for raising kids being as discreet as possible would be optimal, and that's where we can look at stuff like swinger scenes an oLTR/pLTRs around us etc and see "just how fucked up do the kids end up, what level of discretion do they use, how do they handle situations where the kid discovers daddy has a "friend" etc".

"Girls can behave very irrationally if they catch feelings (positive or negative) from a man, and as soon as you have kids you’re in a treacherous legal circumstance – as kfg notes, anyone can sound the alarm that calls the dogs."

Right. This can't be emphasized enough and I mention it in every single post I talk about this. But the reality is the ONE leverage point you can't avoid if you want to reproduce, is being legally tied to her when you have the kid. And because we want the ideal 2-parent stable household to raise the kid in, you can't avoid living with her either, so there are two leverage points for her that you can't get around to accomplish the goal of "raising a kid in a stable 2-parent household".

But all other leverage points can be avoided and should be looked at and taken apart critically, and analyzed to figure out "which of these can we discard completely, knowing what we know about the red pill and attraction/hypergamy?"

"Sentient: ” You also have an extremely naive view of what women’s relationships with their friends look like after they are out of college… and have all moved to different parts of the country… and are settling down with different guys and having kids and dealing with those logistics and many working jobs on top of that…”"

lol you mean when they're bored and finding communication with the outside world on social media and working in places full of men trying to fuck them? Keep that head in the sand, it's safer there lol

on September 29, 2016 at 2:56 pm
Original Link

@Forge the Sky
I’d say we can leap ahead in the conversation right to triggering attraction/hypergamy. Literally everything comes down to hypergamy, that’s why I❀ Rollo so much for bringing hypergamy to the fore-front in the red pill community. It's unbelievably important and underlies EVERYTHING.

If you aren't triggering her hypergamy, you're fucked and more likely to end up in the family court battle. If you're triggering her hypergamy, she's probably not going to leave (MMSL, OMGs LTRs, etc show this).

So we can strip everything away and boil everything down to: what is the optimal way to trigger hypergamy long-term?

Hypergamy is triggered by you being what her hindbrain feels is her highest-value option that she can reasonably obtain.

So what things make you high-value to her? Being interesting, being all the red pill badass things Blaximus says (and that I've agreed with since the start), but also dread game (as MMSL shows), outcome independence (as PUA shows), not pedestalizing her (as MPO shows), preselection/jealousy/social proof (as PUA/MMSL show), etc

But then we send men into a system where they get legally monogamously married and chop out half those things that would keep attraction and triggering hypergamy long-term and/or make it easier to maintain…

…while living in a culture that is EXPONENTIALLY feeding her more and more options that her hindbrain thinks could BE new hypergamous best options available to her now that Brad Pitt Liked her Instagram selfie.

How much sense does THAT make?

Why not just follow the bouncing ball and see where it goes: what if you just kept doing the things that we KNOW trigger attraction and hypergamy, but on a longer scale, doubling down on them, and creating (and training men to maintain and manage) a relationship that works WITH those principles that maintain attraction/hypergamy?

So we can really boil it all down to: what's the optimal way to maintain hypergamy long-term?

If marriage came with advantages (guaranteed immunity to losing your kids, guaranteed attraction from her, gauranteed stable home life for the kids, guaranteed quality baby mama, etc), cool, but it doesn't in 2016. In 2016 (and if not now then in 2026, and 2036, etc) every guy is in the same "she made a false accusation Jolie style because all the Vanir's convinced her I was abusive and now I don't get my kids" boat, PLUS the extra risk of divorce battles on TOP of the family court battles.

So why not strip that all away, since none of it actually helps since you can't negotiate desire and the courts will take her side off an accusation and fuck you anyway, and just focus on how to avoid her WANTING to leave at ALL?

And the way to do that is to focus on triggering hypergamy long-term.

And we KNOW how to do that. Rollo has been talking about the tools to do that for 5 years. PUAs in all communities have been field testing the tools to do that for 10+ years.

So let's just apply that logic and these principles we're already using, to their full natural conclusion, instead of pulling the brake halfway down the track.

on September 29, 2016 at 2:58 pm
Original Link

“Surreal is right… i’ve read a hundred times from you about the 22YO 8 stripper I banged but yet you keep posting this BS about “guys in the field”…

Which is it?”

Dunno, you dodged the question when I asked if you made her give up all her social media for you or monogamously LTR’ed her for multiple years. Glad you brought it back up, please tell us the answer to those two questions. Because the guys infield are the guys trying to LTR these girls, in all the pickup communities across the board.

So please, tell us all about your monoLTR with her, how did you make it work and for how long?

on September 29, 2016 at 2:59 pm
Original Link

“Who said anything about this? fake name? You’re embellishing. Why?”

I’m using your situation as a base example and improving on it with the fake name part to stress that you don’t have to have girls who can look you up and come fuck up your family court date. You’re smarter than this, come on now.

on September 29, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Original Link

@Forge the Sky
“I’m not arguing with your point, I’m furthering it.”

Agreed and I appreciate it, not sure if I’m coming off hostile to you but I don’t intend to, I’ve just had to bitch-slap a lot of OMGs around here lately lol

I agree completely that pLTRs need to be discussed, experimented with, taught, etc more in-depth. Right now we just have scraps of information here and there, with Blackdragon being a huge part of that, but a lot of his stuff was written a while back before this 2016 culture picked up steam, Tyler’s a better example but Tyler has a unique situation where his JOB is to go mack girls (just like Rollo has a job that naturally creates dread) whereas Joe the Plumber would have a more toned down situation, etc etc

So this whole area needs to be looked at more and codified. But it aligns with all the principles we accept as true so it’s worth looking into and experimenting with.

“The stuff about pLTR’s (since we’re agreeing on it so far) is the sort of thing that should be included in a ‘guide’ like you envision. And the second thing re: social media is meant as a call to gather data.”


“Does anyone know many/any swingers or people in open relationships with children we could get info from? I don’t know any myself. Conservative UMC upbringing and all. Or heck, maybe we could find a bunch on some subreddit or something to ask.”

This is the type of thing I was hoping this discussion would start back when I started it lol So thanks for playing along. I’ve met people in these communities and read stuff from their forums etc and they tend to have routines for a lot of these situations so there’s definitely shit there we can learn from and improve on with a red pill understanding.

“This is exactly what I told you two threads ago…”

Like I said to Forge:

“They already warped my consistent message into “See NOW YaReally agrees with you Sentient” lol They’ve gone so far off the deep end with strawmen that they’ve circled back around to what I’ve been saying from the very beginning.”

Thanks for proving my point. I’ve been saying this since the start. πŸ™‚ And like I’ve said since the start: I don’t think you guys would actually disagree with me if you would get off your “I just wanna argue with YaReally” bent and simply calmly read what I’ve been repeating since day one.

“It was all in the field report, so no… your fake hypothetical was answered before you asked it.”

So you HAVEN’T monoLTR’ed a <25yo 8+/10 in the last few years past the NRE stage? Cool, I don't know why you brought up your lack of experience but thanks for clarifying that you're not what I mean when I say "guys in the field".

"It's also true. And really good advice. Someone trying to isolate you will only do so because it makes you easier to manipulate. They have their own "best interest" in mind – not yours – and their interest is in controlling you."

I agree. Better to simply learn to demonstrate high enough value that the girl CHOOSES you over other options because she's attracted to you. Which comes down to accepting that she'll always have orbiters and other options, but focusing on triggering her Hypergamy instead of trying to control her by force. Adapting to the realities of modern culture instead of fighting them.

on October 6, 2016 at 9:38 pm
Original Link

“The problem I have in YaReally’s idea for pLTRs is that even in a relationship where a woman is the “primary” she still has options, she still has orbiters, she still has a sense that she controls you personally and financially because of it.”

She will ALWAYS have that, in ANY type of relationship, in 2016. But you yourself promote dread game, MMSL (before he became purple pill, the plan he lays out at least), non-outcome-dependence, MPO, being able to toss her shit on the front lawn, preselection, jealousy, etc…ALL of that stuff is neutered in a legal monongamous arrangement and enhanced in a pLTR.

If you disagree with that the you are disagreeing with the stuff you’ve been laying out for 5 years.

You CAN’T say “dread game helps keep a woman attracted” and then say “but an arrangement that makes it harder for a man to execute dread game is better for keeping a woman attracted than an arrangement that makes it easier for him to execute dread game”.

You CAN’T say “monogamy is better for men” when you yourself have written about how love is not unconditional, you can’t neogotiate attraction, Hypergamy doesn’t care about monogamy, etc which means monogamy has NO RELEVANCE to her staying attracted and, as discussed repeatedly with dread game, jealousy, outcome independence, etc, a pLTR makes it EASIER to trigger the things that DO cause attraction.

You’re throwing out everything you’ve written about for the sake of clinging to your social conditioning that engrained in you that “mongamy is just better BECAUSE”. This is the equivalent of feminists seeing and reporting on wage gap stats being a myth and then going “…but we’re still getting paid less because we just ARE okay???” It’s feels-based reasoning because you are still running on social conditioning.

“You correct a woman when she is so enamored with you she willingly deletes her social media and the thought of an orbiter never registers for her.”

She will NOT DELETE HER SOCIAL MEDIA FOR ANY MAN AND ORBITERS WILL ALWAYS EXIST in 2016 is what we are trying to tell you.

You guys are running with an outdated fantasy that if you’re just high value enough she’ll be 100% enraptured by you. That’s like saying someone who loves ice cream will just never ever even LOOK at other food ever again or ever want to taste any other food ever again no matter what and even though they have 50000000 offers a day of delicious food at their door they’ll just never answer the door because they’re SO ENAMORED WITH ICE CREAM that they’ll move to another house to escape all the free offers that THEY don’t even see as a bad thing.

That’s a fantasy land. That doesn’t exist anymore. Social media will not go away, girls will not throw away their smartphones and delete all their social connections for a guy. Not in 2016. Not even for Brad Pitt. You guys act like you promise a girl monogamy/marriage and she’s like “YAY NOW I HAVE A MAN ON LOCKDOWN I’M DELETING ALL MY OTHER OPTIONS!” That’s fucking delusional fantasy-land shit now.

PRE-social media/smartphones, or pre-internet, aka your guys’ day, ya this was probably pretty possible. Women only had to turn down a handful of offers/orbiters and just not pro-actively go out seeking dick. Pre-Internet if they sat in their bedroom there was maybe a guy phoning them or an orbiter knocking on their door but that’s about it. But in 2016 a <25yo 8+/10 that girl WAKES UP to 50 txts without making ANY kind of effort whatsoever, she's BOMBARDED with this shit.

You guys just don't get how much the world has changed out there so you have no frame of reference for any of this. You need to try to monogamously LTR some <25yo 8+/10s like tons of red pill/PUA/Manosphere guys are trying to do. This is like trying to describe ice to guys who've never seen it before.

"The problem with a pLTR is that most men cannot reach that sweet spot."

Then we work on teaching them how and teach them more efficiently and guide them. 15 years ago people said "the problem with PUA is that most men cannot learn to attract women", if we let that stop us we would be nowhere.

"My issue is that the combination of women’s inexhaustible options, innate solipsism and Hypergamous doubt, and men’s inability to meet an SMV degree that is constantly progressing, that deep conversion is something most men will never achieve."

Agreed, so don't legally tie yourself to them and set up an arrangement that makes it EASIER to trigger the things that stoke attraction rather than entering an arrangement that makes them HARDER to trigger.

"Ergo, a pLTR is more dangerous a proposition to the average man than simply maintaining a single outlook."

Having sex is more dangerous a proposition to the average man than simply MGTOW'ing. Do you promote that too? No, of course not. We educate and train men to be better, and to maximize their odds and lower their risks as much as possible. Just like we would in business or any other area of their life.

"@YaReally, so you’re agreeing with Vanir here? If that’s the case, why bother with ANY form of LTR with women?"

For the sake of this discussion, the goal is to raise kids for 18+ years in a stable 2-parent household. But aside from that all the usual stuff like companionship and stability and etc

"Why even consider women for anything other than a perfunctory lay? Why the ruse of any “primary” part of what amounts to a poly-sexual relationship anyway?"

Primary gets to live with you and be directly provided for by you, and you get whatever benefits come from having a live-in LTR.

"Even if you have a kid it doesn’t matter because that caveat to replace its mother is always on the table."

If you hadn't written your signature on a piece of paper would you kick your wife out and bring bottle models into your home to raise your kids for you? No?

What is this logic? You are pulling right out of the FI Playbook here dude. You are literally saying the equivalent of "well if you're not going to marry the girl then why even date her, you're just USING her for SEX, you WANT her to feel DREAD??? Well if you dare make her feel DREAD then you are GOING to replace her with some other girl it's 100% inevitable because the fact that you DARE make her feel like you don't 100% need her, that means you are 0% committed and will 100% replace her."

This is just bullshit FI-based shaming. You would call ANYONE else out on it in ANY other area of relationships/seduction. If I said to you "you should quit your liquor job because it makes your wife feel dread and if you're okay with her feeling dread and if she feels like you might be attracted to other women then that means you don't love her and you're going to kick her out and replace her and she's just some baby incubator to you", you would call that out as bullshit. That's exactly what you're doing here.

"Does it not make more sense to not even consider any woman as a ‘primary’ role when that woman can never be expected to recognize or acknowledge your boundaries?"

She can recognize and acknowledge your boundaries, what are you talking about? I'm just pointing out that she has INFINITELY more pressure to ignore your boundaries, so men should be made aware of that and realistically informed of it instead of being blindsided by it.

"Dread is technically useless in that state because no matter what you do, according to your take, she will never voluntarily delete her options (Facebook, social media, etc.) or her orbiters from her life. If she has those options, actionable or imagined, all your Game, Dread, DHV, etc. is just pissing in the wind."

This makes no sense. 1) they will NEVER voluntarily delete all their options in 2016. That's reality now. 2) there are tons of ways to lower the enticement of those options, like dread, game, DHV, jealousy, preselction, etc etc

What are you even writing here? You are writing the equivalent of: "well if there are other attractive men in the room then game doesn't work and it's all just pissing in the wind". That doesn't make any sense. Game is about triggering her hypergamy while lowering other guys ability to trigger her hypergamy, which can be done, but to do it you have to first acknolwedge that you will never get rid of the other guys. They will ALWAYS be there in the background trying to fuck her from every angle in this social media smartphone connected world and that will get worse not better.

"So, why even advocate for ANY kind of modified monogamy at all?"

Because guys are still going to try to have kids and the system you are promoting DOES NOT WORK and will continue to fail HARDER over time. How long are you guys going to send men into this system? Does the divorce rate have to hit 90%? 95%? And WHEN it does, THEN what? Then we'll have this exact same discussion I'm bringing up.

"Why not simply father a string of illegitimate children and skip town?"

Because the goal is raising kids in a stable 2-parent household. Why do you guys not understand this? Why can I write this out 5000 times and you guys STILL read it as "HOW CAN I HAVE A KID BUT NOT HAVE TO RAISE OR PAY FOR IT"?

"Let some other Beta raise them because women will never recognize a father’s authority or require his influence anyway when she’s got 2 dozen orbiters ready to lend a hand?"

This is nonsense. I've said social influences make it HARDER not impossible, and the arrangement you are promoting makes it even HARDER than other arrangements that make it EASIER.

Simple logic.

"All that said, men must be prepared to walk at the first signs that he isn’t a woman’s first priority."

It is easier to walk in:

A) an arrangement where you are legally tied to her, have verbally promised her your full 100% monogamous commitment, have a contract signed where you will lose a bunch of your shit if she's unhaaaappy for a day or if the relationship ends for pretty much any reason (because remember she'll be encouraged to lie in court "for the sake of the kids"), have no other options (so you fall into scarcity mentalities yourself and have less incentive to stay social and attractive and have women in your social circles etc), and make her the center of your focus

or B) an arrangement where you are together but not legally, and you have other girls on the side

Why isn't Softek walking on his crazy girlfriend? You just told him he must be prepared to walk at the first signs and yet that message SOMEHOW ISN'T SINKING IN.

Softek doesn't have other options, so he CAN'T walk. And you want men to sign up for HIS relationship arrangement. That's "better" for them than if Softek had 5 other girls on the side that were all cool fun etc and he could execute "walk at the first signs that he isn't a woman's priority" like you'd like him to.

I'm just dealing with the reality that men out there are facing.

"Lift weights, lose your gut, have a Stoic Mindset, Be Anti-Fragile, be able to manage a LTR (it’s not about the girl, it is about the relationship game), be able to maintain Frame and Soft Dread during LTR pair bonding. All of which YaReally doesn’t actually espouse because, you know PUA game doesn’t need that shit. Whereas LTR game does. "

PUA encourages all of that shit and has for years. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. You're just trying to separate "PUA/YSG game" from "SJF's badass LTR game" so you can try to feel important and make yourself the arbiter of some special unique niche game. It's complete ego-driven bullshit that muddies the water.

on October 6, 2016 at 10:44 pm
Original Link

This was in 2013, before Tinder went widespread (cause it doesn’t even mention Tinder), so 2016 is 3 MORE years of this EXPONENTIALLY increasing:

on October 6, 2016 at 10:46 pm
Original Link

“Would you like me to supersize your order of fried ice?”


This is why my posts are 400 pages long, because I have to spell everything out letter by letter every time.

on October 6, 2016 at 11:15 pm
Original Link

And as I’ve explained a thousand times, the legal contract of having a kid is an unavoidable risk because the goal of the discussion is to have a kid, so there are benefits to it (having a kid). But legalizing a marriage and having a kid are two different contracts, one is unavoidable if you want to have a kid and raise it in a stable 2-parent household, and the other is a voluntary contract that can be dismissed.

And now I’m 4 more posts into explaining the most basic nuance of a post that literally everyone but you probably grasped when they read it because you love to do this semantic shit lol Such a waste of time/effort.

on October 7, 2016 at 5:35 am
Original Link

“@YaReally Since targeting and only banging girls in their 20’s I can vouch for everything YaReally is saying.”

Weird how many times when guys start going for the actual group I’m talking about (the young hot girls in 2016) they go “holy shit YaReally was right” lol

The guys who disagree are guys who aren’t regularly going for <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 and seeing their world from the side of a guy who's fucking or trying to LTR them.

They might fuck a few of those girls here and there, but if they are then they aren't doing ANYTHING they preach here (aka keyboard jockey) with those girls…they aren't getting those girls to delete fuck and all social media apps, they aren't getting those girls to stop talking to their orbiters, they aren't getting those girls to stick around in monogamous LTRs with them for years, etc

"Social media allows this crazy girl to dump me and then rush to the comfort of these orbiters online."

And they're not necessarily even orbiters. She has access to tons of high-value guys that she didn't have access to before social media:

Sometimes I have to save these girls from themselves. Not everyone is cut out for that life.

A photo posted by KIRILL WAS HERE (@slutwhisperer) on

I'm not your attorney or gynecologist, there's no expectation of confidentiality…

A photo posted by KIRILL WAS HERE (@slutwhisperer) on

"YR is like someone looking over the Killing Fields, shaking his head and saying, “you don’t get it, it just hasn’t been tried right!”"

Sounds like the OMGs talking about marriage to me…of course they're not married or even trying to LTR <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 like the single guys.

on October 7, 2016 at 5:36 am
Original Link

reply in mod

A Woman’s Prerogative

Original Link

via Rational Male

on September 21, 2016 at 7:24 am
Original Link

Pitt/Jolie lol time to drop some reality bombs:

That one’s an actual shame to me. I thought of any LTR, that one might make it. Pitt was a country boy with good ol’ southern values who WANTED to be a dad (VS a Dicaprio type getting dragged into it unwillingly). And Jolie being a AAA celeb would need another AAA celeb to bare minimum balance out the value (VS a case where a AAA celeb chick ditches a guy who’s way lower value than her). Brad didn’t let his value drop or anything, he’s as famous and high-value and successful as ever. She clearly likes/wants kids since she has a million of them and he looks like a good caring father and all she does is praise what a good father he is. That’s GOTTA work out, right?

Made it to just past the 10 year mark, legally married 2 years ago…huh. I remember some asshole around here mentioning that making modern LTRs last past 10 years (and legal-marriage past the NRE stage, legal-marriage helping KILL the NRE stage) was tricky and a guy might have to accept that girl may bail around that mark because marriage doesn’t mean as much to them (compared to girls in the OMG’s day, yes Jolie is 40 which is “old” but she also grew up in LA in full Hollywood culture so she would have been at the forefront of shitty modern cultural influences that are now widespread to normal girls) and there’s no real negative consequence to bailing and that 2016 guys should expect to go through a custody battle around the 10 year mark and plan for it as much as possible.

But hey, maybe they weren’t UMC enough? Ya they seem pretty poor and destitute. Maybe he let himself get too fat and ugly? He sure looked fat and ugly in his last movies, what an uggo in Fury. Maybe he stopped making movies and money? I haven’t even seen his name anywhere in films the past 10 years that’s for sure. Maybe he wasn’t an involved enough dad raising 6 kids with her? Those million pics of him with the kids going on family trips (to save the third-world and all, full high-value admirable behavior) and spending time together were probably just fake and photoshopped. Maybe he didn’t show enough commitment staying with her through her double-masectomy? I totally remember all those interviews where he was like “ew no, she has no tits now, I’m bailing on my family to bang strange poon instead!”

Maybe all his monogamy just wasn’t monogamous ENOUGH? ’cause monogamy and voluntarily limiting your options sure builds attraction. Maybe him wanting a family and wanting to be a dad just wasn’t quite enough commitment or fatherly involvement? Not like those assholes discussing pLTRs who would be shitty fathers by default that abandon their kids baseball games to go hit up nightclubs and would never be involved in their kids life. Maybe he’s unattractive and other women don’t want him anymore? That’s probably it, most vids and pics posted of him have girls commenting “eww what happened to him he’s so hideous now” (‘course even if somehow a girl COULD still find him attractive (which is impossible really), it’s not really dread when you’ve legally promised monogamy and neutered the dread that would come from worrying about you straying…or given her justification to boot you if you DID promise monogamy and DID stray). Maybe she should’ve also grown up in Oklahoma with him? Picked up some of those good wholesome religious values that would have made him immune to all this (like Jennifer Garner, born and raised in Texas, who bailed on Affleck, another AAA celeb in his prime)?

It’s ALMOST like a guy with traditional values trying to make a legal monogamous marriage work with a girl who’s grown up in the heart of modern culture and values (she grew up in LA, and that culture has spread and gotten worse since then), just MIGHT have a little more difficulty than the FI would have people believe, especially when he voluntarily makes it difficult to do the things that first sparked attraction and then keep attraction going.

I’d swear someone around here was talking about that recently, but I just can’t think of who that was…probably some idiot with no kids who doesn’t know anything about anything.

But hey, Brad Pitt is a big blue pill beta chode and there was never any passion or anything, right? He was always a big ol’ chode? We ALL know that, I mean, look at him in interviews and stuff NOW, what a big ol’ chode! Let’s completely rewrite history and pretend he was always just a big ol’ beta who got by on his looks and was never actually alpha or had any game so we can avoid the reality that monogamy marriage and kids whittle most guys down, not even to the point where they’re fat and lazy and quit their movie careers etc, but to the point where they’re just seen as a Provider instead of a Lover despite their massively high-value.

’cause objectively Brad Pitt was a charismatic alpha:

He wasn’t a beta chode when they met (aside from believing NAWALT and thinking legal marriage was a good idea lol). He’s negging and teasing her like crazy in that interview, running beautiful game, and she’s responding with all sorts of natural iois (of course).

Check out his swagger at 33 seconds into this one, back when she fell for him. That’s not the walk of some chode, that’s a guy who feels like he owns the world:

Check the bloopers on YouTube from Mr & Mrs Smith, lots of Brad teasing her and making her break character and then negging her for it and self-depreciating and being cocky and generally being alpha.

The bloopers and the interview above were when they were were first hooking up on set (or maybe NOT hooking up if Brad kept his monogamy promise to his wife and they may have just had insane unresolved sexual tension built up if they didn’t bang…you know, like your wife with the guys at work and orbiters and social media guys that flirt with her if you’re out of the NRE stage with a <25yo 8+/10 raised in 2016 culture) and fully in the NRE stage (while Pitt was with Anniston…huh…kind of sounds like non-monogamy/jealousy triggers attraction…I'd swear someone mentioned that here)

Now if he could STAY like that, with that swagger and teasing etc till the grave, cool, he might keep her attracted long-term. But he became a nice safe Provider in her view, instead of the sexy bad-boy with a wife on the side flirting on-set in a "we CAN'T be doing this" risky situation etc, with no outcome dependence ('cause he already has a wife), bla bla

And she's clearly attracted to him in this montage of appearances together from a few years back (you know, before they got legally married), that's not how a girl looks or acts around a beta chode. He's not trying to kiss her as she gives him the cheek and she looks away bored.

on September 21, 2016 at 7:28 am
Original Link

Unfortunately as I said in the marriage debate, the NRE stage and first few years are very different from 10+ years later when the NRE has worn off and boredom sets in.

But I mean, don’t believe ME, I’m just some idiot who hasn’t been married. Listen to Angelina Jolie’s own words:

“No we’re not talking about making out on the red carpet and wearing blood vials ala Billy Bob Thorton (aka a Lover), Angie means sweet affectionate RESPECTFUL love between a mother and father (aka Provider)…”

“One of the things we’re particularly conscious of is how we treat eachother in front of the children. We want to be an example of how to treat the opposite sex.”

“We’ve grown up as a couple, a relationship is one thing when you’re first together and it’s exciting, but now we’ve been together for many years, and we have the children, it becomes a DIFFERENT kind of love…it’s not just being LOVERS and partners and friends (aka a Lover), it’s being a family man (aka a boring Provider) which I love in him and feel very lucky about.”

She feels SO lucky that she’s bailing on him and taking the kids and painting him as a shitty father now. And she’ll have the full support of the media and all her friends and family. Because it’s 2016 Eat Pray Love culture. There’s no consequence for her leaving, only reward and validation and positive attention, while the man is thrown in the shitter and his reputation tarnished.

Imagine you bond with your 6 kids for 10 YEARS, thinking “this is how it’s gonna end, I’ll grow old and have this loving family around me on my deathbed, I love being a dad there’s all this chaos in the house and I thrive on that ’cause I’ve wanted the family life for years, I’m so fortunate” and then whoops, nope, she decides in like a week (the divorce happened in 5 days or something apparently) to just take it all away from you and now you wake up in an empty bed with an empty house at 50+. Pitt will be fine, he’s a AAA celebrity. But how will Joe the Plumber do?

The point of all these vids is that Brad Pitt WAS alpha when she met him. And his situation at that time was conducive to spiking attraction. But after enough years of monogamy, plus legal marriage, plus kids, he lost that edge. You can’t remove the “having kids” part if you DO want to pass on your genes, but you can eliminate the monogamy and legal marriage part since they don’t come with any benefit, not even for Brad Pitt.

Now can Joe the Plumber stay alpha for 18-40+ years to raise kids? In 2016 with 2016 girls? If he isn’t in the UMC religious clique? When fucking BRAD PITT, a good-looking AAA movie star can’t?

Sure, MAYBE, just like MAYBE I can pull off a skateboard trick that Tony Hawk can’t pull off, every day for 18-40+ years. But I sure wouldn’t advise men to legally gamble their lives on it when I can’t name any benefit to it that they can’t get without that gamble.

At least she’s rich too so there shouldn’t be much fighting over money. So I guess the recipe to get legally married is: make sure you legally marry a girl who’s rich at 21. Rich, but with traditional values and no smartphone or technology. Who will legally marry you, Joe the plumber, the hard-working average family man who just wants a nice wife to grow old with and kids to raise. No problem! TONS of those girls out there all over the place! I met 5 on my way to type this post!

TMZ has updated with:

“Our sources say, Angelina became “fed up” with Brad’s consumption of weed and possibly alcohol, and mixed with what she believes is “an anger problem” … felt it became dangerous for the children.”

So another successful man’s career and reputation can be destroyed by social media gossip because he’s now a drunk pothead abusive monster who’s one step away from abusing his own children.

And don’t worry, incase you thought that wasn’t enough the Jezzies are on the case:

By fluke timing a story about a successful Hollywood family man type who molested the Coreys and runs a pedophile ring just went out and even though Pitt was a nobody instead of a high-powered celebrity AND only like 18 for the timeline to work, they’re pretty sure Pitt is probably the pedophile ring king.

And they’re of course rooting for Jennifer, shitting all over Pitt, because they identify with the mousey girl who got dumped by the high-value guy. Because everyone in society will dog-pile on the man. She won’t have a single person telling her to make it work the second she says she’s “unhaaaappy”.

So even Brad Pitt, the guy who defined alpha in Fight Club and put in 10 years of solid monogamy starting out as an alpha and being a good dad and keeping his value sky high the entire relationship, can’t make modern marriage to modern women work. At least he has time to hang out with his buddy Ben Affleck, who’s in the best physical shape of his life playing fucking BATMAN, was divorced by his aging mousey wife from Texas at the 10 year mark (of course he’s still living with her while she nags him to death and is surprised he doesn’t want to get back together now because he’s moved on to banging other hotter younger girls that don’t nag him). And they can both call Johnny Depp to go hang out and talk about how much they love to all get wasted and be angry and beat women and children with all their addictions and abusive tendencies that they all coincidentally have while all of the women are just struggling perfect unicorns who aren’t at fault for anything at all.

on September 21, 2016 at 7:37 am
Original Link

So in conclusion I guess the lesson must be: screen quickly for a higher-quality woman than Angelina Jolie.

Good advice…now if only we were able to have a discussion without people’s panties twisting in a knot, about how to teach men to properly screen faster…and then not legally marry them, since there’s no actual benefit to it since marriage doesn’t mean anything outside of the deeply religous UMC circles anymore.

Because the first response all these guys will have is “Angelina Jolie is clearly a batshit nutcase no man should marry”. Duh.

But what if I told you…

…that in 2016 ALL women with social media, with male orbiters and men in their social circles, and working around men have become like LA-raised Angelina Jolie, thinking they’re minor celebrities thanks to social media with endless seemingly high-value (because she won’t know until she interacts with them and they fail some shit-tests) options coming at them from all angles 24/7.

This is what guys are working with in 2016. Your OMG wives don’t exist now except in some corner of SJF’s farm. Guys have to either not reproduce or figure out how to have kids safely with all these Angelina Jolies running around if they want to raise kids with a <25yo 8+/10 raised in 2016 culture.

lol but don't worry, Joe the plumber reading this debating legally marrying your high-school sweetheart, YOU'LL make it work. YOU have the NAWALT. Now you just have to be more successful and high-value than Brad Pitt…and stay that way for 18-40+ years.

And fucking lol at the other guy who got dumped after 20 years too. I feel bad for him but this picture, it's everything about 2016 culture wrapped up in one pic:

#youGoGrrl #socialMediaHasntChangedAnything #sheEvenUsedEmoticonsLololol

And hey, since we're on the subject of men being demonized in 2016:

See, when your BPD ex steals your meds and kills herself, it's actually YOUR fault.

"Carrey employed surveillance cameras to keep an eye on White, but he did not alert authorities after learning that she had not ventured outside the house for 24 hours"

I wonder what the headline would have been if he DID alert the authorities. "STOP SPYING ON HER!!" "SO CONTROLLING!!" "ABUSE!!!!"

Because men are evil in 2016 and women are responsible for NOTHING anymore.

Don't legally tie yourself to a woman. The ONLY ties you can't get around are when you have a kid with her and enter that legal system, and that comes with a high risk too, but at least you get an actual reward/benefit for that risk, aka you have a kid and pass on your genes, and living with her so you can raise your kids in a 2-parent household. Other than that, don't legally tie yourself to her in ANY way.

…unless you're better than Brad Pitt and can stay that way for 18-40+ years to a 2016 girl being bombarded with options 24/7. Then go ahead and gamble lol but try to name the benefit of rolling that dice if you win first…you won't be able to name anything you couldn't get WITHOUT rolling that dice.

Don't worry, I'll find something happy and uplifting to post about, to balance out this "TOO NEGATIVE" realistic look at Pitt/Jolie lol

on September 21, 2016 at 7:38 am
Original Link

There’s a part 3 Brad/Angie conclusion in mod lol ROLLOOOOOOOOOOOO

on September 21, 2016 at 8:02 am
Original Link

Also Vasalgel will be awesome. Would sign up on day 1 but they’ll probably prevent it from hitting the market (at least over here, maybe you’ll be able to order it online from India or some shit). Soon as my money is in order I’m going to freeze some swimmers incase something happens (with a chunk of money dedicated to keeping ’em frozen somewhere), and either get a snip or hopefully reversible Vasalgel will be out by then.

Hefner and Holly tried to have a kid but had troubles ’cause Hefner was sterile by then and freezing swimmers probably wasn’t available back when he was fertile. She peaced out ’cause she wanted to have a kid and he was a dead-end for that so it was time to move on, survival and replication and all that. Bad luck with timing/technology on his part, he probably didn’t even think about it.

Would still use condoms though, ’cause of STDs. Once guys have something like Vasalgel they’re all gonna go condomless (’cause girls rarely want to use condoms with high-value guys anyway despite what the media would have you believe) and STD rates will skyrocket, esp since the 80/20 will increase to 90/10 and beyond so girls will all be fucking the same dudes while the rest are checked out into VR worlds like the Grasseaters.

“a feminine-primary social order would be affected by men’s far greater control of women’s Hypergamous strategies.”

Straight-up it’ll be fucking CHAOS. All these elements are coming together at about the same time (Vasalgel, VR, MGTOW movement, hollywood divorces every week, Feminism overstepping it’s bounds, all these post-wall women realizing no one wants them, egg-freezing, university kangaroo rape courts, social media name/career slander, etc etc)…society 25-50 years from now will look nothing like it does now.

If you need me, I’ll be poolside with a drink in one hand and a girl in the other, watching it all burn down lol

on September 21, 2016 at 1:15 pm
Original Link

That’s why I posted behind the scenes stuff where you see him being himself, instead of scenes from his movies.

Pitt was exactly like half the natural alphas and red pill studying guys out there: alpha enough to get the girl but not prepared enough to screen properly (since even discussion of teaching men to screen can’t be done without red pill guys throwing a fit) but still holding out for that unicorn white picket fence FI-based lifestyle that certain people promise him he can have if he’s just alpha enough, instead of stomping that dream out and bringing some reality into the discussion about modern marriage/monogamy.

“It has also been revealed that Pitt was blindsided and was told that Jolie was divorcing him just a day before she filed the legal papers”

“Brad will still “fight and fight hard” for joint custody. Their “Brad sources” claim:

“There’s no chance that’s going to happen.” Pitt wants joint custody … he doesn’t want to interfere with Angelina’s ability to be a co-parent, but he won’t allow her to thwart him.

They continue:

As we reported, our Angelina sources claim Brad heavily indulges in weed and alcohol and that, combined with what she claims is an anger problem, poses a danger to their kids.

Our Brad sources insist … he’s never put his kids in danger … ever.”

He was the model dad to her before this. Tons of footage of her praising him as a father. So what exactly didn’t she like about his parenting?

“Often, the arguments were over “disciplining” their six children – Maddox, Pax, Zahara, Shiloh, Vivienne, and Knox – the source says.

“Brad has always been stricter,” the source explains. “He has wanted the kids to have more structure. Brad will get frustrated sometimes and yell at the kids. Angelina always had a more relaxed attitude when it came to the kids. She definitely never yells.”

Further, the large brood could lend itself to chaos, according to the source. Thus, Pitt was focused on “having rules.””

But…but wait. I was told that in 2016 you can have discipline and structure and run the household like a boss for everyone’s own good and no one will have a problem with it. No one will view that as toxic masculinity and frame it as abuse and use it in a court battle to take your kids.

Whoops! Off to the slaughter, Brad! If only someone had given you a reality check that modern marriage is stacked against you.

Is it POSSIBLE to beat the odds? Sure. But for what benefit? Brad’s house is as empty as mine is and he’s at the same risk of being a Lonely Old Man(TM) as Dicaprio.

Don’t risk it. Even if you really really really want to be an involved father, there’s no guarantee you’ll get that chance if she pulls the plug and throws out some claims about how abusive and dangerous you are and sheds a few crocodile tears. Why wouldn’t she, she has nothing to lose and everything to gain lol

Don’t legally marry and don’t promise monogamy. You’ll still risk losing your kids and/or money to child support etc, but at least that’s ALL you’ll be risking and be in an arrangement that promotes dread (aka attraction). No reason to stack the deck even harder against yourself, unless you’re in the religious/UMC clique.

“Syria burned down in 2011. The only men poolside with a drink and a girl were members of the small ruling elite, in fortified enclaves. For the rest of the male population, there were no drinks, and no functioning pools to lay by. You’ll probably be dead meat if chaos ensues.”

All the more reason to live it up now lol

on September 21, 2016 at 1:23 pm
Original Link

Even his BFF Clooney was blindsided. Brutal:

Which means that shit happened FAST.

Imagine being Brad Pitt right now, he must be completely mind-fucked…”I’m literally the 10/10 role model in almost every category there IS from looks to money to status to career success to fame to preselection…I’m the guy who’s characters entire forums try to emulate. What the fuck else was I supposed to DO???”

Unfortunately once you leave the NRE stage and once “real life” throws something like health problems into the mix, none of that adds up to any kind of guarantee. Luckily he’s a zillionaire like her so the financial battle probably won’t be bad, but if she was some waitress he would be about to be hit by a financial nuke.

on September 21, 2016 at 1:49 pm
Original Link

“Not counting the year she spent setting it up.”

From Brad’s perspective I mean lol Even if they had problems, it doesn’t look like he had any idea this was coming. Just a guy who fell for the dupe that marriage was different from a live-in girlfriend and made things special and magical.

“Jolie is being represented by divorce lawyer Laura Wasser, who has earned her “Disso Queen” nickname handling marriage dissolutions on behalf of some of Hollywood’s biggest names.

Among those she has represented is Johnny Depp, who ended acrimonious divorce proceedings with actress Amber Heard with a $7 million settlement last month.

Miss Wasser, a partner at Los Angeles family law firm, Wasser, Cooperman & Mandles, also represented Kim Kardashian, Stevie Wonder, Heidi Klum, Ryan Reynolds, Christina Aguilera, Mariah Carey and Kiefer Sutherland in their marital splits, and helped Britney Spears to win joint custody of her children despite the singer’s public meltdown.

She represents so many celebrities she told Bloomberg she sometimes advises clients to keep their divorce on hold so she can file several high-profile cases at once to spread the media attention, which is why there can be a flurry of break-ups summarised in magazines.

She reportedly charges $850 an hour, requires a $25,000 retainer, and rarely represents people who have less than $10 million.”

“The couple were photographed together back in July, celebrating her son’s birthday in a West Hollywood restaurant.”

From celebrating your son’s birthday with your 6 kids and wife who says you’re the most amazing man in the world in every interview, to an empty bed and empty house and a custody battle and slander in 2 months, with half the world laughing at you calling you a cuck beta who had it coming or an abusive father because you tried to discipline your kids a couple times and it made your 12-year monoLTR unhaaaaappy and in 2016 there’s no consequence for blowing the marriage up…for her, at least.

on September 21, 2016 at 1:55 pm
Original Link

“As far as the procedure goes, I would definitely pay the $80 bucks extra for the laughing gas first. In fact, it should be offered as a package deal.”

lol for real though it’s just an injection. I don’t get the guys who are like “oh man a needle in my junk?? NOPE I’ll risk pregnancies thanks!”

But what if this is all a ruse…maybe Vasalgel is designed to stop working after a few months/years so that we all end up having a bunch of babies since birth rates are dropping?? :O lol

I will be amazed if it’s available here though…there’s no WAY this doesn’t get blocked hardcore the same way they want to try to block sexbots and shit.

I don’t even know what a world with male contraceptive would look like when you factor in all those other dynamics I listed:

“All these elements are coming together at about the same time (Vasalgel, VR, MGTOW movement, hollywood divorces every week, Feminism overstepping it’s bounds, all these post-wall women realizing no one wants them, egg-freezing, university kangaroo rape courts, social media name/career slander, etc etc)…society 25-50 years from now will look nothing like it does now.”

Like, Vasalgel NOW, if it appeared tomorrow, the impact it would have would be one thing…but Vasalgel PLUS all those other dynamics all coming into play and escalating over the next 25 years…That’s a hell of a thought experiment, I gotta sit down and think that one through…

on September 21, 2016 at 1:57 pm
Original Link

Fucking lol at everything in your post. I agree 100%.

on September 21, 2016 at 2:35 pm
Original Link

@hank holiday
Will check the FR out later. In the meantime, PIMP notes:

Might save ya some time

on September 21, 2016 at 3:29 pm
Original Link

“I was gonna suggest you discuss how good looks are really only good for a few initial IOIs and have very little bearing on mindset or good Game with YaReally,…”

No idea what you’re trying to say, less vague hinting, moar actual words plz lol

on September 21, 2016 at 3:57 pm
Original Link

“In regards to YaReally wanting to discuss vetting, I would advise him to read Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man by Joseph W. South and Franco–in regards to vetting”

Saw it when you posted it in the marriage thread. But 1) it needs updating to account for 2016 culture/dynamics/changes, 2) it needs to be more concise and less flowery for most guys to bother with it, and 3) it needs action plans VS just “screen for girls who aren’t low self-esteem” oh okay HOW exactly give us a step by step or some things we can pro-actively to do screen faster.

Same things I said in that thread: we should have guys pro-actively screening in year 1 instead of knowing not to waste time on a low self-esteem chick but not find out she’s low self-esteem until year 4 when he’s already massively invested in her and the relationship, etc

on September 21, 2016 at 5:03 pm
Original Link

“Just how many do you have over on the weekends you want to have visitation”


Zero, your honor. Under oath. Discretion and all.

on September 21, 2016 at 5:09 pm
Original Link

“Care to imagine how the following line of questioning will play out in family court? You, know with witnesses callled and testimony etc.”

How many times did you bring the stripper you were fucking home to play with the kids? Under oath.

Or is this another of your “rules for thee, not for me” situations where YOU have self-control and discretion but OTHER men need rules and restrictions.

on September 22, 2016 at 5:40 am
Original Link

“Back to the Angela Jolie/Brad Pitt break up, what stands out for me in that story is the demonization of Pitt for “doing what dudes do”.”

This is my point about legal marriage and promising monogamy. The things that, in the OMG’s day, would have been accepted or viewed as masculine traits etc, are now viewed as “evil”. So their kids are chaotic all over the house and Brad yells to get their attention and whoops, now he’s a child abuser and potential danger, and EVERYONE will agree on it and not even listen to his side or give him the benefit of the doubt or anything. The Women Are Wonderful effect combined with Toxic Masculinity in full swing.

“Hey a few pages ago you were advocating and open poly relationship, so you’re baby mama is going to know who your girls are.”

As I’ve said since the beginning, you can craft it how you want to. You can fuck random strippers on your business trips with all your wife knowing is just “if he’s away on business he might have company in his hotel room, or might not, I don’t ask and he doesn’t tell”, or you can try a full out Tyler “she brings her girlfriends over to have 3somes with you” arrangement. Whatever you prefer and weigh the risks on…except compared to legal marriage these risks come with a benefit: a variety of poon lol

Personally, I prefer the fully open stuff, but in doing that I would obviously have a harder time winning full custody and would have to take more pro-active precautions to help my odds in that as much as possible, and the style of relationship would help keep her attracted enough that we may not HAVE much of a custody battle anyway (VS the Tiger Woods who agrees to monogamy and legal marriage and then because he “CHEATED”, gets her (and society’s) full wrath).

There’s a chance that with an open thing I could end up only being able to visit the kids, but there’s the same chance with a legal marriage except on top of that I would also be paying alimony and lose half my assets and, as I’ve pointed out numerous times, voluntarily restricting your options makes it harder to stoke dread and keep attraction so I’d be increasing my odds of being in that situation in the first place (IN 2016, NOT BACK IN THE OMG DAYS WITH GIRLS WHO WERE RAISED WITH TRADITIONAL/RELIGIOUS VALUES AND VIEWS ON MARRIAGE AND BEING A WIFE…I’M TALKING ABOUT <25YO 8+/10S IN 2016 lol).

"And when in a custody fight she can leverage these facts watcha gonna do? You can be sure her attorney will push this advantage."

What I'd do is exactly what @Culum Struan said and what I said a million times in that other thread:

“you sure as hell need to be clear that this kind of lifestyle will be serious ammo against you in a custody battle and you have to add preparation for it into the plan. Like I know you’re already planning stuff like “be an involved dad” (that’s a good idea in itself lol) and “build evidence to prove you were an involved dad and attending PTA meetings and knowing the name of your son’s second best friend” etc. You need to crank that up 100x AND be prepared with evidence to prove how your poly lifestyle was kept separate from the kids and didn’t affect them etc.”

The more up front what you’re doing is, the more you’re gonna need to make sure it’s clear that you’re a capable (ideally better) parent. It’s not a 100% guarantee, but neither is a legal marriage, and at least this plan comes with the benefit of a fun sex life and better odds at keeping attraction long-term (since it inherently does the things we recommend deadbedroom men do in MMSL to keep attraction going).

Remember, as I’ve said a thousand times: I’m not discussing a flawless perfect 100% guaranteed system…that doesn’t exist. But I think we can do a hell of a lot better than the current system which is 100% risk on the men, 0% risk on the women (and in fact NEGATIVE risk, since they’re REWARDED for leaving), for no benefit the man couldn’t get if he simply didn’t legally marry and kept things discreet (like fucking on business trips, not ditching his kids’ little league game to go to a nightclub).

“But hey Brad did not get divorce raped… Like millions of guys, mostly young, who simply have no assets and wife makes same or more then they do.”

lol so those “mostly young guys with no assets and who’s wife makes the same or more than they do” are getting custody over their ex-wife are they? The family courts are like “well we have this wife of yours who’s their biological mother and makes more money than you and you don’t have any assets and don’t make money…SURE WE’LL GIVE YOU THE KIDS, DUDE!” Fantasy world shit lol And if those guys aren’t getting the kids, which they’re not, then there was no benefit to their getting legally married.

@Blaximus @Rollo @Pitt haters
“TBH, Pitt is just a guy. He’s an actor. We don’t really know anything at all about him.”

Not directed at you guys in particular, this was just a good quote to make this point that I tried to make in my original post but Sentient shit himself and missed with his “THOSE ARE JUST ACTING ROLES DOOD” pearl-clutch, so this is directed at the Brad Pitt haters in general: We can actually tell a LOT about him by watching his behind the scenes stuff, bloopers, interviews, autograph signings, interactions with other people, etc, the same way we can tell a lot about guys we see or meet infield.

If you ONLY watch his movies then ya, you’re just seeing a character. But this view everyone seems to have of “HE’S CLEARLY A BETA, HIS ALPHA ROLES WERE JUST FAKE MOVIE ROLES HE WAS A BIG CHODE” thing is silly. We can tell all SORTS of shit about him.

I can tell you (and most of you could tell anyone) from watching a random guy I’ve never even seen before (let alone know the actual details/background of) infield for a few minutes about how alpha/beta he is, how confident he is, how strong his frame is, what his tonality is like, and seeing him interacting I can tell you what his game skills are like etc

But when it’s a movie star with dozens of hours worth of footage of him NOT acting, suddenly it’s impossible for anyone to tell? Suddenly we just discount all that and summarize him as “only alpha in his movies, not in real life” based on the fact that at 52 he’s had a few chode moments (like picking a chick with kids and believing in True Love etc)?

Any single one of the guys saying Pitt was never alpha and it was all in his roles, if they saw a guy infield interacting with a girl the way he does in that Mrs & Mrs Smith press interview I posted above where he’s teasing her and self-depreciating etc etc would be going “THAT guy is alpha and has some fuckin GAME, look at that shit” Anyone saying that if Culum or Hank or Softek pulled out an FR that read like Pitt teasing Jolie in that interview, we wouldn’t all be applauding their ass, is full of shit and only looking at the surface level of the guy.

Same with his career etc…any one of you would be proud as fuck if your kid grew up to be like Brad Pitt in 99% of categories. The ONLY area he fucked up in is believing in the Blue Pill dream and that legal marriage would guarantee he’ll have a family/wife forever. In every other area, from looks, money, status, career success, motivation/drive, passion, social proof, preselection, morals/values, etc I call bullshit if any guy here said they wouldn’t LOVE for their kid to grow up and come out similar to Pitt (but with a slightly better understanding of vetting and attraction).

So the whole “oh he’s just some beta cuck and always was lololz” thing falls flat. The reality is you can look at clips from him through his career and the dude was all sorts of alpha by anyone’s standards and killing it in almost every category possible.

The only area he didn’t have a handle on was: 1) proper screening, and 2) understanding that a woman’s love is conditional and that legal marriage won’t guarantee anything. That’s it.

And those are the things I was trying to address in the marriage discussion.

“I always thought it was funny that Pitt was always held up as the apex example of an Alpha from as far back as my SoSuave days.”

It’s so easy to kick the guy now that he’s down, but in all honesty what area do you think Brad Pitt back in your SoSuave days WASN’T an example of absolutely SLAYING it in value? Looks? Money? Career success? Fame/Status? Social proof? Preselection? Confidence? Body language? Tonality? Flirting (again see the Mrs & Mrs Smith flirting clips etc)? AMOG’ing (see him and Clooney in interviews together, perfect natural alpha AMOG skills)?

Like come on, let’s not re-write history here as if Brad Pitt was some beta cuck chode loser his whole life and like “oh I was so wise I KNEW he was some chode”. The dude was max’ing out every category of attractive traits except for his blue pill view of marriage/relationships.

Like be honest: if your son grew up to be like Brad Pitt was in his 20s/30s, you would be like “oh man, my son is such a failure”? No fuckin way lol

“Pitt may’ve been a natural in his youth, but like so many guys gifted with good looks he never developed the insight for Game.”

CONSCIOUS game, ya. But he clearly HAD game. Anyone saying he didn’t have game, like, again look at him flirting with Jolie in the Mr & Mrs Smith stuff and in other interviews etc…the dude had game. It was just Natural game, not learned.

And that Natural game can fade, as we’ve all seen any of our Natural buddies who still have that madonna/whore complex and picture the white pickett fence and end up, as Bill Maher said: “I knew these guys when they were stallions, now they’re the horse shuffling around central park with blinders on”

“A guy like Pitt can definitely be Beta, but everyone thinks because he’s every woman’s ideal guy that his looks are an insurance against a Beta mindset and Blue Pill conditioning.”

I wouldn’t even say he’s Beta to be honest. He’s not half-assing anything…he’s fully 100% passionate about what he was doing, he was just doing the wrong thing because he was socially conditioned with blue pill views of marriage/relationships. He’s still killing it in all categories. If he was laying on a couch not making movies anymore getting fat and being lazy and letting people walk all over him etc, okay, he’s a Beta. But the dude is Alpha and full of passion etc, it’s just aimed in the wrong direction because he was given incorrect information.

Like as an analogy picture a gun. That gun shooting at the wrong target isn’t any less powerful of a gun, it’s just been aimed in the wrong direction. That’s Pitt, ’cause he’s CLEARLY still massively high-value and a massive achiever and full of passion for what he does in life etc. He was just aimed wrong because he was socially conditioned to believe that if he fully put all his passion/energy into being a dedicated father and husband, that he would get a payoff for that.

That’s a VERY different situation than a guy who becomes a Beta chode. If Pitt had been given a PROPER understanding of how this stuff works (like if he read TRM growing up lol), all that Alpha shit would have been aimed toward the RIGHT channels.

That’s why I’m pushing so hard on the monogamy is dead marriage is dead thing. Because these guys are learning this shit and then being aimed at a target that comes with massive risks and no real benefit in 2016 (VS back when aiming at that target MEANT something to women/society).

I want to get guys to really understand that they have to let go of that paradigm COMPLETELY and re-focus their aim because otherwise we’re just creating more Brad Pitts: alpha guys who are aimed toward the wrong target.

That make sense? Would be curious to hear your thoughts on this Rollo.

“Honestly I’m convinced that Jolie is BPD and she’s run out of patience for the most beautiful person in the world because he’s never come close to being the borderline Alpha abuser she needs to rule her.”

Agree 100% lol Which comes back to the screening stuff. We all KNOW Jolie was a bad candidate from day 1. But Brad Pitt, a natural alpha, walks into this shit blindfolded like a lamb to the slaughter, ignoring all the warning signs. That shouldn’t be happening anymore. But it’ll keep happening because we don’t have a fast efficient way to pro-actively screen girls out and by the time a guy figures out “oh she has red flags” he’s already 4 years into monogamy/scarcity with her and minimizes those flags and then gets burned and we all go “well you should’ve known better buddy” How COULD he know better, no one taught him how to.

“Look at the stats for alcoholism and opioid abuse for UMC white men in the 38-50 demographic. It’s staggering and defies the logic that it’s reasonably affluent men who look to chemical escapism. Why do you suppose that is? What good reason is there for well-off men who’re educated and have fairly stable jobs to seek out opiates?”

What say you, SJF? lol

“But his Blue Pill conditioned understanding of how shit works with women was never compensated for, even with his being the sexiest man alive – the same goes for Johnny Depp. They may not be Betas per se, but they definitely are paralyzed by their Blue Pill conditioning.”

That’s the biggest takeaway from this. We can look at Ben Affleck and say “well he started gambling and got restless and he wasn’t big into the fatherhood thing anyway” and blame his lack of commitment/dedication. We can look at like, if Clooney or Dicaprio or Dan Bilzerian or myself got divorced and go “well he was a player so of course, he should have shown more commitment/dedication”. We can look at like, shitty father celebs (can’t think of any off the top of my head ’cause I don’t follow much celeb news, but take a celeb who just never wanted to be a father but accidentally knocked his chick up and got married, I’m sure Jezzies could name a million lol), and say “okay well he didn’t want to be a father so he wasn’t enough of a Provider role”. We can look at guys who quit working or lose their jobs or get sick or get fat or lose their passion etc etc and go “it’s so obvious why she left”.

But Brad Pitt is objectively by anyone’s standards, still killing it in every category we push men to improve themselves in, and HAS been for the last 10 years as a power couple. And then on top of it he IS a family man type, with that wholesome religious upbringing and values and full belief in commitment and desire to be a good involved father. Pitt is an example of a guy who THRIVES on fatherhood, whereas a guy like me would be like “ah fuck I have to be a dad? FML” lol

But he gets bailed on by a POST-wall woman with health problems (literally NO SMV anymore, like Stefan Molyneux said, her reproductive stuff has been removed so she literally has no SMV to men, she’s not ditching him for a better monkey branch she’s ditching him for NOTHING and being ALONE Eat Pray Love’ing) etc who’s now SLANDERING him and her RAS is fully ignoring all of his good qualities and focusing 100% on his bad qualities EXACTLY like Tyler talks about here and what I’ve talked about for years now, where if she’s attracted to you, all she sees are your good points and your flaws are reframed or minimized, and if she’s LOST attraction, all she sees are your bad points and your flaws are highlighted:

So Pitt’s situation basically shoves in everyone’s face that NO, the missing component ISN’T “just be more dedicated to the settling down commitment family life”. Because if ANYONE should be able to make that work, it’s the guy who’s slaying it in every other category on TOP of that. If HE can’t do it then what chance does Joe the Plumber who DOESN’T have millions of fangirls and social proof and millions of dollars and is jacked at 50 etc etc, have?

There’s something structurally BROKEN in monogamy/marriage in 2016. Monogamy and legal marriage, in 2016, restrict the man’s options while the woman’s options are still wide open (social media, male orbiters/social circles, male work environments, etc) and just inherently make it harder for him to stay attractive, ESPECIALLY if he ALSO adds a bunch of Provider stuff to that (like being a good father etc).

The system itself is damaged and needs to be thrown out and new strategies discussed and tested. Because it’s going to get WORSE, not better. There’s NO reason for it to 180 instead of getting worse. We have to adapt and give men a new gameplan.

“I cosign SJF’s 18 month vetting timeline. It’s been my experience that the timeline may even be shrunk down to 12 months, but that depends highly on the woman. Some are better at hiding shit than others. Some like to play more games than others. As always, test the fuck out of a new prospect, listen to what/how she says what she says, but ALWAYS watch what she does. This is paramount.”

See this is what I was hoping to get out of you OMGs in the screening discussion instead of a 12 page debate on marriage. How would you recommend “testing the fuck out of a new prospect”? What, based on your experience of vetting women, could a man do to pro-actively “test the fuck out of a new prospect” within the first year? What were key things that you found and what type of experiments/tests could a guy pro-actively employ that we could codify to teach men, for him to discover whether she passes/fails those tests in year one instead of 4 years in when he’s invested and overlooking shitty behavior etc What did YOU do that your wife passed vetting for those things on?

“This too is part of the vetting process. Will she take direction or will she compete and demand ” equality “? Is she willing to be lead?”

What ways can you think of that you could test a girl for whether she takes directions or not or is willing to be led or not (to the point where you would vett her out of the running completely)? Any thoughts on what a guy could pro-actively do to test for that in year one? What did YOU do that your wife passed vetting for those things on?

@Sentient @Blaximus
“Will you do a post on the Alex Smith RSDvrape trial. The New Yorker has picked up the story.”

Oh wow, I read the article and it’s like a “how to do everything wrong” guide. These dudes are blatantly ignoring/misinterpreting EVERYTHING about ASD/LMR/Buyer’s Remorse/discretion/legalities, etc Like I expect shit to get blown out of proportion in these articles, but both the girls’ accounts and the guys’ Lay Reports look like just flat out rape.

This is why the brushing off of the old PUA stuff is so sad to me. Mystery’s methods for dealing with LMR/BR were to make the girl feel MORE comfortable (Riker’s 3 Rules which are basically about alleviating her concerns/worries/ASD), or to back off and DHV until she’s more attracted and WANTS to fuck, or to respect her boundaries TOO MUCH to the point where you turn on the lights and play chess together completely asexual until she initiates sex again lol And the Buyers Remorse handling was about comforting her and making sure she feels special and happy about the whole experience, just like the after-care in BDSM shit where you make sure the person feels good about the experience.

Like “leave them better than you found them” was the old PUA community rule because seduction was supposed to be a fun experience that the girl is HAPPY she had. And as I’ve mentioned a bunch of times game works better on sober girls than drunk ones ’cause sober ones can actually understand all your verbals and innuendo and rapport conversation etc When I meet girls early in the night and we’re into eachother but their friends have to drag them off to dance or whatever, I literally tell them flat out “I’ll find you later, don’t get too drunk I like talking to you sober” and I’ll get us both waters etc and if they come back hammered and sloppy I’m like “ah damn” ’cause it’s a turn off and I don’t want to take them home anymore.

Mystery wasn’t teaching guys to find wasted chicks, feed them booze till they’re puking, then hide their phones and gangbang rape them and then TAUNT their worried friend about it…??? Like what the FUCK.

This is the difference between giving guys a gun but with good training VS just giving them a gun and no training. I really wish people would check out the old Mystery shit. It was way more about creating a fun experience for BOTH parties.

@Blaximus @Rollo
“” Look at the stats for alcoholism and opioid abuse for UMC white men in the 38-50 demographic. It’s staggering and defies the logic that it’s reasonably affluent men who look to chemical escapism. Why do you suppose that is? What good reason is there for well-off men who’re educated and have fairly stable jobs to seek out opiates?”

This right here. I’ve seen this up close with my own 2 eyes.

I figured it out a while ago from talking to these ” types ” of guys, that what you are saying is very much true. They follow ” Life Plans ” from very early ages. They get into ruts that they can’t get out of without upsetting the apple cart, and become trapped.

We outsiders see only the trophy wife, the huge homes, the $90,000 car ( along with the $65,000 pickup truck..) and the maze of gigantic corner offices that become like elaborate jail cells.

I’ve watched over decades as their faces grow stone like. Success is a double edged sword. As always, it depends upon one’s perspective. MPO.”

lol where were you guys when I was suggesting SJF might have UMC goggles on in that marriage thread with his whole “all my friends and everyone in my community is flawless and happy and perfect” shit?? Coulda used some of this in there lol

“He’ll be fine. But this is the danger of being involved with a Cluster B/BPD girl. You’re in a no-win situation: walk away, you’re positioned as the uncaring asshole….stay and you’re trampled on…set boundaries and you’re constantly shit-tested until you do one of the aforementioned.”

My point is basically that society is very heavily encouraging and incentivizing girls to BE “Cluster B/BPD” types. Like, to me a Cluster B is just a normal girl with no behavior filter really, just like the Alpha version of most of us is just the same guy we were before but with no filter. Once we remove that filter and just embrace our “id”, suddenly we’re alpha because we aren’t holding back anymore.

But everything in this 2016 Kardashian culture is promoting the “just follow your “id”” mentality with women, rewarding them for it with validation and sympathy and attention and praise etc

So it’s becoming a situation where it’s going to feel like EVERY girl a guy meets is Cluster B/BPD. Is it that a medical condition is spreading, or is it just that society is rapidly encouraging and rewarding Bad Moms behavior in 2016?

@Anonymous Reader
“It’s not what doctors don’t know that bothers me, it is what they “know” that’s wrong. Statins. “Heart healthy” high carb, low fat, diets. Running miles per day vs. resistance training. All prostatitis is bacterial. I can go on but won’t. ”

“I’ve had to learn Game on my own, and learn current year medicine on my own, because no one in my family taught me the former and none of my doctors are willing to learn the latter. Fortunately for me, I know how to do lit searches and research. But that’s just me.”

I know THOSE feels lol As I’m learning about health/exercise/nutrition etc trying to get myself in better shape so I can bang into my 50s, I can’t believe how much of the stuff I was taught growing up has turned out to be complete bullshit (and even COUNTER-productive and explains a fuckload about why I’ve been a chubby dude) and how slow “official” approved recommendations are to actually be updated and promoted. Massive progress can be made by communities pro-actively field-testing and experimenting instead of waiting for official studies from Harvard or the government to tell them what’s legit.

@Anonymouse Reader @walawala
Part of the Red Pill adoption I struggle with is that every shit-test, every frame snatch attempt, every flake “triggers” a fear of “Was I being beta????”

That’s only natural, whether you were once more Alpha and got Betaized, or you were always Betaized, whatever. It results from overthinking the problem.”

This. That’ll go away in time as you internalize all this stuff…and by “in time” I mean like, YEARS not weeks lol This is a life-long journey. Like, you’ll still ASK yourself “hmm, did I do something that would have caused that to happen?”, but it’s a detached objective unemotional observation just like looking at a replay of an F1 race and asking “hmm, should I have turned my wheel slightly sooner on that turn?” because that’s just optimizing your skillset.

But you won’t attach your self-worth to it or have that fear of “OMG AM I REVERTING TO MY BETA FORM” like the Hulk worrying he’s going to turn back to puny Bruce Banner again lol Because you’ll have internalized enough of the mindsets through field experience (field field field) to know that’s not really a thing to be concerned about because the alpha version of you IS the default, it’s the beta that was the mask (chains wrapped on you by social conditioning that will take years to fully de-program).

This is where a lot of the internal game work comes from. Usually guys that go into panic mode over those things are the guys that are still in the stage where they’re defining their worth based on their results. ie – “this girl likes me, so I have value and am alpha etc, this girl doesn’t like me, so I am worthless and beta” lol It’s a natural stage, any guy will go through it when they go from no girls to getting girls, no big deal.

But down the road when that starts holding the guy back, that’s where he has to start doing stuff that fucks with his comfort zones and beliefs…like purposely going out not looking good, purposely running “bad” game or trying to sabotage his sets and recover, purposely handicapping himself in whatever way infield, going for hotter girls while dressed bad, etc. So that he slowly learns “ohhh, it’s not the things I’m doing that are alpha, *I* am alpha” which goes into that “I don’t do it because it’s alpha, it’s alpha because I do it” zen shit lol

That’s why I legitimately believe in my mind that I have more value than Brad Pitt etc to girls I’m with, even though objectively by ANYONE’S standards that’s clearly not the case lol But I have those beliefs because I pushed my comfort zones HARD and purposely handicapped myself infield etc to where I was getting attraction/iois even though I “shouldn’t” be getting them. When you take away those externals then it’s like “well then how am I getting this attraction? Ohhhhh, I guess I must just BE attractive by default, woah, my mind just exploded” lol

“Is it because men can get swept up in the moment and not put the condom? Or is it more for the “backup” aspect against an “oops forgot to take the pill (on purpose)” move in a LTR?”

Both really lol For the players the first one is probably more important, for the relationship guys who’s girls are hounding them to settle but they haven’t fully vetted her yet or aren’t sure they’re ready yet, the latter would be more important.

Either way it gives men CONTROL for once. …so of course Feminists will fight it. lol

@Nature Boy
“If you had Vasalgel implanted would you want to buy a microscope and cum onto a slide every once in a while to make sure it’s still working?”

DAILY. lol I would still be paranoid as fuck even with Vasalgel or a vasectomy. But it would be reassuring to know that I’m probably safe. Really it’s about KNOWING you’re probably safe. The longest month in the fucking universe is when you have a condom break or stupidly rawdog a chick and then have to wait for her to get her period lol Knowing there’s a 99.999999% chance that it’s impossible for her to have gotten pregnant would be a pretty big relief.

In France they recently made it illegal to get paternity tests because it would break up too many families (aka guys would find out their kid wasn’t theirs). I’d imagine we’ll see something like that come into play if Vasalgel comes out.

on September 22, 2016 at 11:25 am
Original Link

“Yeah you go all DIVORCE RAPE! then forget about custody issues… then when the absence of DIVORCE RAPE! is pointed out you go back to custody issues…”

I’ve never forgotten about custody issues. But custody issues come with having a kid, so a guy can’t prevent the possibility of having to deal with them. Divorce-rape however, is entirely preventable, by not getting married.

“The rest are BP and beta to the core.”

lol ok there. Today I learned alphas only do a very specific set of jobs, please provide us all with a list of jobs that are Sentient Approved Alphas. What cars do they drive, as well? What brand of clothing is the most Alpha?

“Which leads to Brad Pitt choosing as his first wife America’s Epiphany Chick (32!) and then leaving her for what anyone would say is damaged goods, an already twice divorced 30YO single mom and a known headcase to boot. Have you heard of missionary marriage?”

Crazy hey. If only he hadn’t been socially conditioned to think that “love conquers all” and “legal marriage guarantees attraction” etc


You’re just doing the classic cartoon character alpha stereotype shit.

“Why would he choose these 30YO women for monogamous relationships and not the hot tight <25YO 10s??? To say nothing of the millions of 7,8,9's he could have chosen from?"

Because he was socially conditioned with good ol' religious values that told him monogamy was the secret to happiness and a wife and family and that NAWALT. Whoops, guess someone should've told him the truth.

"Gee I wonder what was missing in his life?"

Exactly the things I talk about.

"The MEN are damaged and OLD strategies need to be discussed and IMPLEMENTED…"

Old strategies are demonized in 2016. See Brad Pitt being slandered by his ex-wife, for an example.

"Game is still just mimicry of alpha quality, it is not of itself representative of authentic alpha. It is a simulacrum."

lol ok Jezebel writer. "GAME IS JUST FAKING!!!1 EVENTUALLY SHE'LL SEE THE REAL YOUUU!!" lol How many times do we have to explain fake it till you make it to you?

"so Brad Pitt choosing to marry a post 30 twice divorced Alpha widow single Mom likely BPD woman is not a guy having a few “chodements”…"

It's a guy who was massively misinformed by his social conditioning. Which we should be helping change in future generations of men.

"“How COULD he know better, no one taught him how to.”"

"You didn’t learn that fire burns when your mother told you not to touch the fire.
You learned that fire burns when you stuck your finger in the pretty flame."

This sounds all super cool and zen. But how did you learn that falling from a 50 story building would kill you? How did you learn not to stick your hand in a garbage disposal? How did you learn not to let a truck drive over you? Do you think you would survive being in space with no space suit? Or do warnings and guidance possibly help educate people to learn without having to actually do everything for themselves?

"Give her directions and lead her."

What's the optimal way to drive a car to win this race in the fastest time? Drive it. Not real useful for teaching guys lol

"The trick is separating the religious practice from the practical."

And see what can still be done in 2016 without being demonized and having her friends/family/social media/etc painting you as a toxic male.

@Klem @Sentient
"Well, to me it looks more like social conditioning tbh."

That's what it looks like to ANYONE with common sense lol

"Outside of the redpill/pua crowd, do you really know many guys, even super alpha, who purposefully go after hot chicks 10years their junior, when they themselves are entering their 30s?"

Exactly. If Brad Pitt in his prime was a "beta chode", then 99% of the Naturals I've known, who will fuck anything and end up dating/settling with a variety of girls etc are all beta chodes. We might as well throw "alpha" out the window entirely.

"They do it because "it's the right thing to do", and in the mainstream there are NO alternatives, unless you build your identity around being a 100% player like DiCaprio."

Exactly. The reality is these guys are socially conditioned to NOT go for those 25yo girls are being conditioned into these days.”

Right, but that said when the end result of the two looks almost exactly the same to the guy dating her, it stops really mattering. It goes back to what I said waaay back about Cluster-B stuff, it doesn’t matter what the specific diagnosis is or if there even IS an official medical one, all that it comes down to is: do her actions cross your boundaries or not?

And society is fueling the “id” flames to where the default for more and more women is behavior that crosses boundaries that make them not great LTR candidates, in 2016’s culture.

“BPD has a very high rate of suicide”

High rate, or high ATTEMPTED/THREATENED rate (aka, to get you to pay attention to her or keep you trapped with her crazy)? Either way though, my point is the same: when the end behavior looks the same regardless, it doesn’t really matter from the guy’s end WHAT she has or doesn’t have. He needs to GTFO.

“Whoever they latch onto, which might as well be ANYONE, “Beta” or “Alpha”…..becomes their 100% source of support, and will be seen as 100% responsible for 100% of their emotional well-being 100% of the time, and even the SLIGHTEST fluctuation in care-taking, that triggers the SLIGHTEST feeling of abandonment, could very easily result in a suicide attempt, or some extreme form of self-abuse that might as well be a suicide attempt, like a narcotic binge.”

Right, but my point is: does that paragraph describe just the Cluster-B/BPD girls with the actual medical condition…or more and more in 2016, does that paragraph describe MOST girls? And is that trend headed for a reversal (and for what reason) or is it likely to continue and get worse? (these are rhetorical questions of course lol)

“If attempting suicide is on her Rolodex, that’s when you know there’s a problem that goes beyond Hypergamy/Alpha/Beta.”

Whether it’s on her Rolodex because she’s officially diagnosed with a Cluster-B/BPD medical condition, or just a full “running on her id” Kardashian-culture influenced chick, the guy involved should GTFO lol

“If she hadn’t tried to actually kill herself it wouldn’t feel this complicated. Rollo asked before what it would take for me to leave, like her fucking another guy. Honestly I haven’t had any remote concern about that happening, and at the forefront my biggest fear is that if I walk she will commit suicide.”

Man, I don’t wanna say we warned you about this a year+ ago but we warned you about this. Back when I was first responding to your posts she hadn’t threatened suicide yet and I told you it was coming.

“I feel like I’d be able to walk comfortably as long as I knew she wasn’t going to kill herself and would be able to move on with her life.”

If you’re SERIOUS that you would leave her, start googling about how to safely leave her (gotta be some kind of suicide watch shit you can call or at least suicide help lines to talk to, other guys’ experiences with how they left their BPDs etc).

But the question is if you would ACTUALLY leave her or if this just sounds good in your head but being in this situation is actually your comfort zone now and you wouldn’t be able to leave the relationship even if you had a way to get out without her killing herself.

“As much as I hate to admit it there’s still the core fear that I won’t be able to attract another girl.”

That’s why I said if you would ACTUALLY leave her. ’cause I don’t think you would tbh. If you would, you’d be googling the second you finish this post, looking for the best way to leave her or looking for suicide hotline type services or cops or whatever to contact to explain the situation to and get advice from.

It’s a lot easier and more exciting to stay in your situation until it explodes so you can keep writing yourself off as “too damn damaged, never had a chance”.

@Sentient @Softek
“Just remember you chose not to walk away long before the suicide attempt… you keep digging a deeper hole by waiting around…When would it be better to leave – after the second, third, fourth or fifth attempt?”

For once I agree with Sentient on something. I wrote way back a year+ ago that if you get to this point you’ll DREAM about how easy it would’ve been to leave before her first suicide threat. I really hoped you wouldn’t end up being a warning study for other guys. 😦

In 2016, Robert Mitchum would have been put on ADD meds in school until he was too doped up to keep disrupting the class and fight with other boys.

“but, while she was older (32), she was also still pretty f-in hot….(I’d say almost a 9 despite the age)…”


“There are very, very hot early 30’s women. If someone is going on about only 20YO’s etc. they do not get out that much or they are pretty young or a combo of the two.”

lol ya there are hot 30+yo women, they just come with a shitload of baggage that isn’t worth dealing with most of the time and they catch feels for you faster and demand ultimatums and bring drama.

“And like I said in the last post FR, as you get older as a guy your range just gets wider and wider… from teens to whatever gets your dick twitching…”

Fucking lol You’re contradicting your own rules for alphas dude. Brad Pitt is a beta chode because he fucked a 30yo, but you’re the Super Dynamic Alpha because you fuck 30yos. Ok!

@Anonymous Reader
Your BPD post is basically my thoughts on it too. And again like I stress to Softek, the end result is a girl who’s wildly out of control and who’s behavior will get WORSE the more she’s rewarded with your attention staying in the relationship.

“The collection of BPD behaviours very closely match the behaviours of a short, but important developmental stage that occurs at age 6, when one moves from a purely childish perspective and begins developing as an adult. A chief feature of this stage is black & white thinking. So whatever causes it happens while they are in that development stage that makes them not merely retarded, but developmentally fixed in place.”

Finally a diagnosis for why it’s so hard to explain nuanced things to Sentient, the poor guy must be BPD!

on September 22, 2016 at 11:53 am
Original Link

It was nice knowing you Brad:

What are the odds that a AAA celebrity power-couple like that, has an incident like that, and NO ONE mentions it on social media? Not a single person on the flight, staff, the guy who’s truck Pitt tried to steal when he “even tried leaving in one of the fuel trucks”, NOBODY is like “hey so uhhh, Brad Pitt just tried to steal my truck #WackyWednesday”?

VS him maybe raising his voice southern-values style to some misbehaving kids parented by a chick who doesn’t believe in “tough” parenting (aka probably lets them do whatever they want) and her needing an excuse to bail that won’t make her look retarded?

on September 22, 2016 at 11:55 am
Original Link

“Like why a “super Alpha” like Brad Pitt would choose to be monogamous with a series of 30 YO women who according to you “come with a shitload of baggage that isn’t worth dealing with most of the time”… ?”

How many times do I have to cut and paste “Because he was socially conditioned with good ol’ religious values that told him monogamy was the secret to happiness and a wife and family and that NAWALT. Whoops, guess someone should’ve told him the truth.” before you actually read it?

on September 22, 2016 at 11:58 am
Original Link

“By the time I was 5 I had amassed a great deal of experience in falling from things.”

You haven’t fallen from 50 stories, it might not kill you, you don’t know for sure. Have you been eaten by a lion yet? Maybe it won’t hurt you, you don’t know.

Or you can make educated guesses based on what you’re taught. I can’t believe I have to actually justify “teaching people things gives them knowledge to base decisions on” lol

on September 22, 2016 at 12:00 pm
Original Link

“I dunno, this seems like a pretty logical conclusion to me”

You’re the only thing keeping me from jumping off a 50 foot story building to find out if it’ll kill me sometimes. I can’t believe some of the things I have to explain here and how far people can miss the point some days lol

on September 22, 2016 at 12:02 pm
Original Link

“Brad was fucked from the moment they hooked up. She is a textbook BPD.”

Agreed. But all the more reason we should teach guys to screen girls faster (so they aren’t “hooked” before they see the red flags) and to not believe that monogamy or legal marriage will change things.

Cause right now social conditioning is convincing lambs to walk to the slaughter. We have the ability to try to fix that but it’ll take actual pro-active work to provide resources to teach men, which starts with discussions instead of debating semantics and brushing off anything that doesn’t fit the narrative.

on September 22, 2016 at 12:05 pm
Original Link

Like why DOESN’T Brad know how to screen her? He grew up with those thousand year old books that told him all this shit. Where is the disconnect between that and what actually happens in execution? “Oh he’s just a beta chode because he chose acting as a profession” isn’t a good enough answer, that’s just slippery slope shit into “Gene Simmons wasn’t alpha because musicians just want attention” etc etc It’s just muddying the waters instead of actually discussing why a guy like Brad Pitt ISN’T going for the <25yo 8+/10s and how he can keep them long-term and how to train guys to do the same and stack the odds in their favor while addressing the changes in society and WHY that thousand year old book Brad read didn't stick once he was exposed to social conditioning.

on September 22, 2016 at 12:33 pm
Original Link

@Anonymous Reader
“This is playing out as a classic example of a man entering what he believes to be marriage 1.0 by the old set of books, only to find out that it’s actually 2.0 by the second set of books.

Oh, and he’s rich. So by definition he and Jolie are beyond the mere UMC, they are stratospheric UC. Yet something bad has happened. My, my, my.

Very relevant.”

This. We have here a bible-raised UMC religious guy (since all UMC religious flyover state guys are badass alphas he can’t possibly be beta around women, social conditioning doesn’t affect people), with a girl who has NO SMV ANYMORE, which according to the OMGs should work out, but nope.

So let’s move the goalposts around, he’s always been a beta chode, she’s an obvious damage case, let’s skirt around social conditioning or what effects that had on things etc etc

All this is doing is showing that what we’ve been saying is right: the odds of pulling off a successful legal monogamous marriage in 2016 is so astronomically small that it’s not worth the risk (for no benefit anyone can actually name). If the goalposts have to be juggled around that much to explain this kind of thing, then Joe the Plumber should be staying faaaaar the fuck away from legal marriage or promising monogamy.

“Please tell me what “society” conditioned Brad Pitt to cheat on and leave America’s Most Babyless Sweetheart with a BPD alpha widow single mom?”

lol do you think Anniston was a super high self-esteem catch?

“Point to some HuffPo articles or Cosmo or something that want married men to cheat on their 30YO wives and go live with single women. Any?”

Brad says he didn’t actually cheat and is proud of how he handled it. aka he probably ended the Anniston stuff before fucking Jolie. Because serial monogamy was conditioned into him.

“Or can we just take Brad’s word on the topic:”

Yes, let’s:

“He added: ‘I think that my marriage had something to do with it. Trying to pretend the marriage was something that it wasn’t.’”

“An aimless dude, seeking completion in women, requiring the spark of Angelina to drive him forward… How’s that MPO working out for you Brad?”

But he should’ve known to stay with the boring girl, I mean, this was all written THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO GUYS in the books he grew up reading and all UMC/Religious guys are alpha and have flawless marriages.

“But the “we love sluts” narrative and his own weakness blinded him…”

lol oh ya, Brad is just a playboy who was out chasing down sluts was he? From all those massive scandals he’s had with all the busloads of fangirls he was banging Dicaprio style? lol the dude has been all about the monogamy his whole life, thanks to his social conditioning. But how come that religious upbringing of his that taught him everything in those thousand year books didn’t stick?

“That is correct. The current record for surviving a fall is 33,333 ft, although it was inside the tail section of a plane. The previous record, I recall it being something like 22,000 ft. (not sure where my old edition Guinness Book is), was done after bailing out of the plane with a defective ‘chute.”

Was that YOU falling out with the chute? No? Well then you can’t know, by your logic.

on September 22, 2016 at 12:42 pm
Original Link

“I highly doubt they’ll all go condomless with random sluts who they know have a reasonably high chance of being infected.”

A shitload of them go condomless NOW even when they can be infected AND get them pregnant lol

on September 22, 2016 at 12:44 pm
Original Link

“I chuckle at commenters with their Brad worship. *chuckle*”

It’s not worship. He’s objectively successful in a shitload of categories, the only real flaw he had was he was misled that the woman he was marrying would magically change because “marriage” (the thing you said, about how it’s “different” somehow and magically changes things, aka his social conditioning around it) and believed commitment/monogamy would help with that, which is FI-based conditioning.

So he’s a relevant example of what we’ve been trying to explain for weeks now.

on September 22, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Original Link

@Fred Flange
“But ya ya, I was taken by the statement in the TMZZZ story that she was upset over his “different parenting style” to hers as a reason to go all Bolt-A-Drome.”

This. It’s such a FRIVOLOUS reason to not just divorce him but slander him across the media and destroy his reputation/career and just mentally rape the guy.

Because “marriage” and “being a wife” in 2016 doesn’t mean what it meant to the OMG’s wives back in the dinosaur age even if you’re a good ol’ country boy with strong traditional family values.

It’s a one-sided contract now, with everyone in society against the man and his “actually parenting the kids” (ABUSE!! ANGER ISSUES!!! LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT!! OMG LEAVE HIM GRRLFRIEND!!!) with no actual benefit for the man.

Pitt will be okay ’cause he’s rich and can afford lawyers and the press will cover him. But if this was Joe the Plumber in that 90% of men no one cares about? Any time Joe tries to find work, the only search results that will come up are slander and maybe some sad little blog he makes to try to defend himself against the accusations that he has to hope an employer will believe, and that’s after the alimony/asset court battles etc

The ONLY point of leverage you can’t avoid if you want to have kids with a chick, is the family court shit (and living with her, to have a 2-parent household). Every other point of leverage should be completely disregarded by the VAST majority of dudes.

on September 22, 2016 at 12:55 pm
Original Link

@Anonymous Reader
“C’mon, if you went over to some other man’s garage and he had a small block V-8 pulled out that had thrown a rod, wouldn’t you ask “How did THAT happen? Over-revved? Bad bearing? What?”. Damage assessment / failure analysis. Not “engine worship”. ”

Shhhh, we can only analyze stuff that fits the narrative the OMGs hold. Anything that doesn’t fit what they say (because they know everything, obviously) is just outliers to be condescendingly disregarded.

on September 22, 2016 at 1:00 pm
Original Link

@Anonymous Reader
“Pfft. You can do better than this hairsplitting.”

That’s literally all they do in these discussions. We can drop a shitload of facts and logic and all their responses are shit like “uhh ACTUALLY he’s only got 143.243 million dollars” and “well ACTUALLY he was raised in a town 30 minutes south of the town where the REAL No True Scottsmans are” and “oh well ACTUALLY that girl is a slut because now NAWALT” etc etc

It’s exhausting lol but guys learning game need to know the truth so they stop getting burned.

on September 22, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Original Link

@Forge the Sky
“first, men who see meaning in the holistic experience of marriage but haven’t really thought about it in a way that’s easy to convey to people who just haven’t experienced it.”

The thing is we GET it. We GET that. But what we’re trying to explain is that WOMEN don’t. The labels and titles don’t mean anything to them anymore, no matter how hard you play by the 1.0 books you’re still playing by the 1.0 books while women have moved on.

It’s not that we don’t get the magical connection “believe in it and it’ll help” shit. It’s just that the other partner in the lopsided contract doesn’t believe in that fantasy in 2016.

“Some of us think society is now such that only the exceptional man can prosper – and so the only way to possibly help a man is one at a time, by inspiring him to BE exceptional, and just throwing up our hands at the triaged. Others think we might find a workable patch for the unexceptional”

I say no point being the best at riding a broken rollercoaster. Build a new one.

on September 22, 2016 at 1:37 pm
Original Link

If BOTH partners still heavily believed in that “marriage CHANGES things, it just DOES” magic, GREAT. That’s WHY the old OMG marriages worked out.

But that’s not what’s out there anymore for the 90% of men out there who are still signing up for the slaughterhouse because no one has any alternative options for them. Right now the marriage is the guy thinking it’ll magically change things if he believes hard enough and the girl taking pics of her ring for her instagram Likes.

on September 22, 2016 at 1:45 pm
Original Link

“and so the only way to possibly help a man is one at a time, by inspiring him to BE exceptional, ”

Plus we want that TOO. But if you can become so exceptional that you can beat the odds of surviving legal marriage and hold your frame in it, then you can do the EXACT SAME THING minus the legal contract, and get the exact same benefits (since women in 2016 don’t view “wife” or “marriage” as having any real magic meaning like in the OMG days).

It’s nice and simple, basic logic and risk/benefit analysis. The only reason these discussions take up 25 pages is because people cry over semantics lol

on September 25, 2016 at 9:30 am
Original Link

“I’ll bet comfortably that Brad has never vetted a broad in his entire life.”

Now if only we could have a discussion that helps narrow down a guide for men to pro-actively vet for red flags instead of having that discussion squashed by overly sensitive OMGs who just want to brag about how much better than other men they are, instead of actually helping their fellow man and future generations of men who don’t and won’t have the luxury they had of having anyone teaching them how to vet properly.

on September 25, 2016 at 2:29 pm
Original Link

“You want to know how to vet, ask a guy who vetted well.”

We’ve been trying here but all we get is those guys laughing at guys who need help and didn’t have guys to learn from, or them getting butthurt and going “I WAS gonna tell you but now I’m not gonna cuz my feels are hurt, but next week I’ll complain that none of you want to hear my old man opinion on anything even though when you DO ask I don’t actually contribute anything”.

on September 25, 2016 at 3:24 pm
Original Link

“That next level takes being more comfortable with risk”

For what benefit that can’t be gotten without the same level of risk?

And vetting is the opposite of risk-taking. Risk-taking would be NOT vetting.

on September 25, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Original Link

“Next time why don’t you start out in a genuine way?”

lol I did in the original thread and multiple times within it. So did a few others. But the second anyone mentions marriage around here the OMGs lose their shit and rant about feels and take everything personal when no one was talking about them.

on September 25, 2016 at 3:30 pm
Original Link

“The current topic is how Joe the Plumber can get and keep a baby mama for long enough to be a baby daddy, without getting his life royally shafted in the process

exactly, marriage 2.0. That’s what I am talking about. In times past you’d just get married, but now guys are looking to get the benefits of marriage without getting legally married. So your scenario is exactly what I am talking about — that’s marriage 2.0”

This lol Nice and simple.

on September 26, 2016 at 8:41 am
Original Link

@Forge the Sky
“But it don’t see the big picture here. If a girl is going out dressed super provocatively like that, esp w/o an orbiter or BF to guard her, what’s her mindset?”

She’s looking for a guy who will “imitate her squint, laugh, then pull w a bit about how she’s probably gotten hit on all night and OH GOD not ANOTHER one, don’t worry I can’t hit on you I’m too shy, so anyways I want to get a girl’s opinion about something and go into my FWB situ) and SEEN how much it was real annoyance and how much it was IOI’s.”

And change “and SEEN how much of it was real annoyance” to “and SEEN how it was obviously IOI’s” (because you just assume it couldn’t be real annoyance because you’re awesome and assume attraction, though YOU haven’t decided if YOU’RE interested in her BACK yet).

She knows 99.999% of guys will get wrapped around her little finger. She’s looking for the guy who can see her like that and STILL treat her like a bratty 5/10. ’cause that’s a guy who’s had girls like her or hotter in his life and that’s a guy who won’t put up with her shit and who feels confident/entitled/etc enough that he’ll engage her, and then QUALIFY her because he has standards and force her to CHASE him instead of just giving his interest up easily because she has higher value than him in his head.

Instead what happens is cool guys she MIGHT fuck open her friend because her friend is less hot and friendlier, and then walk away without engaging her lol

There were a thousand things you could have done, from calling her out directly, to making fun of the squint, to asking her friend “why does your friend hate men so much, look at her glaring at me (and into teasing that maybe squinty is a lesbian with a crush on her etc etc)”, to macking the happy friend more spiking her temp etc till the hotter one interrupts, to negging her about how they only let girls who smile in, walked with them and entered a venue with them for preselection, etc etc A million things.

But what did you ACTUALLY do? Engaged her friend, made eye-contact a couple times, and ejected lol And that happens a dozen times a night to her. That’s why she’ll frustratedly txt her fuckboi or ex-BF for sex at 2am…she wishes she didn’t HAVE to, but no guy will just say “squinting like that will give you wrinkles you know…” lol

The key to think about is: you didn’t even LOSE the game with her…because you didn’t even PLAY. You walked past the arcade machine instead of putting in a quarter and seeing if you could beat it. At least toss a quarter in and play. πŸ˜‰

on September 26, 2016 at 8:45 am
Original Link

@Tom @Culum
“The very first step to doing it for real is learning how to recognize the G-spot on the anterior wall of the vagina, under the Skene’s gland, by touch.”

Watch “Squrting 101”, the one with Cytherea. Try to find the full version that has the separate segment at the end where he makes the asian chick squirt in 30 seconds, but it’s usually clipped off so at least watch the full main segment. Watch the whole thing and see where the other guys are fucking up when they try to do it VS the main guy with the wrist-brace who explains the Spider-Man motion.

Remember it’s easier to make them squirt after they’ve cum once or twice (or more). And you may have to talk them through the feelings because they’ll be worried they’re going to pee and embarrass themselves so you just walk them through it and encourage them to push it out etc

That alone will give you a leg up sexually lol

A Woman’s Prerogative

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via Rational Male

on September 27, 2016 at 7:12 pm
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@Colbert @Blaximus
“Ummm…Charlie Sheen is not a model of success in this arena…lol.”

lol I don’t think Charlie Sheen is a model of success in ANY arena to anyone.

“So do you pick your favorite plate or your least favorite,to leave watching the kids?”

What? Does Sentient invite the stripper he bangs on a business trip to watch his kids? Why would you even let the other girls meet your kids?

Why does everyone think that if you don’t promise monogamy then that means you’ll have 50 women walking in and out of your house raising your kids for you while you go Charlie Sheen it up in nightclubs skipping their little league games lol I can’t believe how hard it is for people to grasp nuances around here.

“Would a HB 4 or an HB8 be more likely to agree to this pltr?”

Do the math: The hotter the girl, the higher-value the guy she needs. Is a guy who can get other girls and doesn’t treat her as special high-value or low-value to her?

on September 27, 2016 at 7:12 pm
Original Link

ah fuck, wrong thread lol ignore that.

Stalling for Time

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via Rational Male

on September 13, 2016 at 9:15 pm
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@Sun Wukong
“What’ll be really amazing is when all the women preserving their eggs realize all the guys they would want to fertilize said eggs will be interested in younger chicks by the time they’re “ready” for children. The shrieks of indignation and anger will be the stuff of legend.”

lol this.

“Yareally has spent a decade learning how to be any woman’s fantasy for an evening. He knows exactly how to give her those feels that she hoped for when she decided that she wanted to go to the club for a ride on the carousel. And he never sticks around to get boring, after all, there are more girls that need servicing the next day. He actually works more than one woman at a time, so he can leverage the egos of several women per week.”

Stop, I’m blushing!

“but actually Yareally offers his services for the low, low price of free.”

What? No, I get enthusiastic pussy and usually a fun/cool fuckbuddy for my services lol The things that a lot of guys will pay insane amounts of money to get. I’d say that’s a fair exchange, she had to get her hair and nails done and I had to learn how to be charming. We both win in the end. πŸ˜‰

“a man who has trained for years to know just what to say, just what to do, and just how to fuck them silly, and he does not take a penny for providing this service!”

When you put it like that I sound like a modern day Robin Hood. I’m flattered!

“talking a woman into doing what she knew she wanted to do before she left her apartment”

That’s VERY debatable.

“With his hard work, there should be no problem finding an endless supply of men willing to validate the fuck out of the female race until the robots take over.”

Just the hot young ones. And men are already doing this anyway WITHOUT getting sex in exchange. I’m just helping them learn how to actually GET something out of it besides a “thankyou” and the friend zone lol

“These feats have more than earned him his place as the first RM Feminist of the Year(tm). Please join me in congratulating Yareally on his achievement!”

Boy are feminists going to be surprised!

on September 13, 2016 at 9:36 pm
Original Link

“where their hindbrains cannot hope to interpret the experiences they afford, much less have the attention span necessary for the insight to process how they should best cope with changes they’re scarcely aware of or take for granted.”

This is the big thing right here. She wasn’t SUPPOSED to have access to this many options. It’s like extreme stimulus overload combined with the rapid pace of these changes happening (like I say compare now VS pre-Tinder VS pre-Facebook VS pre-smartphone VS pre-cellphone etc) combined with just not enough time to really process all of this and adapt.

It’s like society took a bunch of kids and is just DUMPING endless candy on them and then we’re shocked they don’t develop great eating habits and have stomach aches and pick the least healthy candy, and then even when they’re tired of it we dump MORE CANDY on them until they become jaded and disillusioned like this chick Tyler interviews at 27 seconds into this video:

Listen to how she views the world. She’s a model and lawyer too lol

Watch the whole interview it’s only a few min and it’s pretty funny, Tyler corners her hamster by pointing out that she doesn’t want all the guys who WOULD commit to her and her view of the world is that any guy can get a girl and all guys cheat because the 10% of guys she WANTS are those guys, she doesn’t want the guys who WOULD be faithful, ’cause they don’t have game.

Listen to her “including ME or no?” “I’M not like that, all these OTHER girls sleep with any guy” etc etc so fucking funny.

And watch at 2:29, a big tall in-shape dude stands in front of the camera, RUINING the attention she’s getting for a split second and she just shoves him out of the way because he’s ruining the attention she’s receiving, she’s the princess in the spotlight get out of the way and then get disqualified by her lol

Also funny to watch Tyler trying to laser her for the camera but she won’t have it lol There are a few points where if they were in isolation she might, but not with the camera etc on her in public like that.

Now this is some LA chick who’s for sure jaded, but she’s also the type of chick surrounded by rich jacked good-looking connected dudes and even surrounded by THOSE options, she “can’t find a man”.

And she is 100% convinced she’s right and everything she says is gold.

And listen to how she reacts near the end after Tyler spins her around and is like “you’ll find a guy who will want to marry you and be nice to you and compliment you send you flowers and–” and she’s just like “ew no never never never ew noooo” like it would be torture.

And then she whips out the business card with her name and number on it because Tyler might be her ticket to fame and fortune or more high-value guys. In a relationship she would say “oh it’s just for business” but the reality is her hindbrain is spreading it’s its potential Hypergamous option net as wide as possible and technology and social media has given her the ability to gather more candy than she’ll ever know what to do with.

How much do this chick and her social circles of female friends value the term “wife” “husband” and “marriage” when they actually HAVE those things and are unhaaaaaappy for a few days/weeks/months lol

on September 13, 2016 at 9:53 pm
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@Via Vitae
“This happens a lot with guys figuring any tech out, figuring out that you can make “Y” happen reliably when you do “X” is a game changer, but often the first step in a long and painful evolution.”

The thing is NOT learning game isn’t going to make guys NOT try to get laid (talking the average guy not MGTOWs lol). We’re biologically driven to want that. Like Tyler says “the only thing worse than a guy who’s learning to pickup girls is a who’s NOT learning, because he’s not going to just sit in his apartment, he’s still going to TRY to pick them up when you take him out, he’ll just be really bad and creepy and needy and weird with it”

So we said “look we’re all going to chase this shit, so can we find a better system of consistently succeeding at it that we can teach men across the board”, and we DID that, blowing everyone’s mind because we beat the impossible odds that said “you either have it or you don’t” and a guy like Tyler who was supposed to be weeded out of evolution has more options than most guys will EVER have.

Same thing with the kids stuff and why I brought it up last thread. We are biologically driven to reproduce, so men are going to keep TRYING to have kids. But right now we have a broken system with the odds stacked massively against them (unless they’re UMC/religious community types which aren’t the average man), but just like the anti-game guy will still creepily try to get girls because he’s hardwired to, guys will still TRY to have kids and raise them with a woman, it’s just more and more likely to fail and result in broken homes and depressed/suicidal men and fatherless children and the stats will get worse as robots take over men’s jobs and VR porn/webcam girlfriends/etc stunts mens social skills and makes them even less capable of interacting with women successfully.

So if guys are going to try to have kids ANYWAY, then just like we figured out pickup, we should put our heads together and figure out a better safer system. Because they’re not going to NOT do it, even a lot of MGTOWs are still dating. They’re not committing (usually lol), but they may want kids and shit but just not see a way to do it safely and/or will try to repress those feelings or find other outlets (VR etc…shit maybe we’ll see VR CHILDREN you raise to scratch that nurturing itch? lol) Like, the % of men who absolutely have no reproductive/sexual drive/instinct at ALL (if there were no negative conseqeunces to acting on it with girls they think are attractive) is very low.

So I say it’s time to find a new strategy to offer them, just like we offered pickup to men who were failing at a system stacked against them.

I understand after that last thread that this might not be the place to discuss and nail down and make any kind of progress with that system, and that’s fine, maybe I’ll take it to the TRP forums or something. But the building is already burning and crumbling around us. We can wait for it to fully burn to the ground for the 90% of men who aren’t in UMC/religious cliques and THEN talk about building a better city, or we can be pro-active and adapt to the evolution of the field we’re seeing in front of us (those of us reporting from the field trying to LTR <25yos in 2016) and stay ahead of the curve.


on September 13, 2016 at 10:17 pm
Original Link

“From her tone of voice, I thought she was super worried that she was going to lose me if she didn’t fuck me that night.”

I took it as a challenging tone ’cause feisty girls will taunt like “you must be mad you can’t get me” lol

Either way though that doesn’t make it not a shit-test…like, a shit-test isn’t necessarily a negative thing (despite the name lol). Think of it as “an opportunity to observe how you’ll react and collect information”, if that helps. Like, she’s putting something out there, something that might be totally legit, but what she’s looking for is how you’re reacting to it and how that’s affected you or changed things, so that she can gather more of an idea of who you are, what she is to you, what you’re about, etc

Trying to think of a good analogy here…like with a cat that you don’t know, you approach it to pet it, and that’s a legit thing, you’re not “testing” it or negatively testing it or anything, like you’re not approaching it as a TECHNIQUE, you just sincerely want to pet it, BUT you approach slowly and pay attention to how it’s reacting TO you approaching and if it hisses or runs up to purr against your leg, you’re able to guage more “okay now I know what this cat is like and how it views me”.

Does that make sense? So she can legitimately have to go home that night and legitimately be worried about losing you, but the point of the whole exchange is that she’s instinctively observing how you react TO that so she can get a better guage on the situation…that’s why she asks if you’re mad or disappointed because she’s trying to get a read on how you feel.

“so I still think I played it right”

Ya you played it just fine when she said it the first time, so you still did good there.

“except for the outdated text advice from like 2012 about turning shit really sexual”

lol ya, no one was expecting text game to evolve so fast…I mean who the fuck saw TINDER coming lol All my amazing text game skills are now pretty much useless and I’m having to re-learn text AND voice phone game (or better yet, how to AVOID having to resort them lol). Kick in the nuts but what can ya do lol

“Thanks for giving back to the community. If you ever need any professional introductions or anything, let me know and I’ll try to return the favor.”

Happy to have helped. Just pay it forward and help others the way I was helped and paid it forward to help you.

“This is gold. I’ll try this next time and maybe rehearse it a little so that it comes off smoothly instead of me stuttering over my words and stuff.”

Ya, you’ll find that you’ll be able to apply it to tons of situations so you’ll get used to it fast lol like EVERY pull you do might as well be to see the view and involve the FTC etc so that you can narrow down when it does/doesn’t work and where to tweak, VS trying different pull excuses every time (unless you come up with a better one in the set). So you’ll go through the whole “but I work in the morning so you have to go after one drink” line a million times till you get to where you’re setting the sexual “it’s on” frame sooner and don’t get as much resistance (like where you don’t even have to really verbalize where you’re going, she just comes with you and you both know it’s on and her ASD/LMR is diffused ahead of time etc, doesn’t happen all the time but it’s nice when it does).

“I demonstrated even more value than I wrote about in the report. She definitely wants to have my babies.”

lol ya she might start thinking she doesn’t deserve you so pay attention and calibrate incase you have to either lower your value (self-depreciation, share an insecurity/vulnerability story) or raise her value (give her an easy qualifier to pass or just compliment her on something that isn’t her looks) so she feels like “okay it makes sense that he would like me then” VS “why would he like ME? It must just be for sex :(”

“What are some good random ping examples to reopen?”

Scray, you got any defaults (hank asked about this at the end of the last thread and I’m curious too about what you send when you do long-term pings (like the 6 month chick))?

I usually just use a funny meme pic or article that’s related to something we talked about. Remember the magic of that first interaction is wearing off so you’ll probably not want to use much humor that can be interpreted negatively/serious/offensive, like view it as just an opportunity to either get her on voice phone where you can actually game her, or get her to meet up, VS trying to game over text (like I was doing in 2012 lol)

Stalling for Time

Original Link

via Rational Male

on September 13, 2016 at 11:03 pm
Original Link

@Sun Wukong
Good shit dude, remember anyone he introduces you to you’ll have value by DEFAULT. Focus on stuff like lasers and rapport etc, like ASSUME that you have value by default because you’re with him. And pro-actively join the conversation/interactions, don’t “wait to be put on”, step up and ENGAGE the people you run into that know him, even if you engage sloppy that’s better than not engaging at all and getting shoved in your head being the third wheel to conversations he’ll probably have with people he runs into.

“Actually, I think switching the jobs hurts your case.”

lol pick any job that parents would be happy their daughter’s future husband has I don’t care what it is. The point of it remains the same.

on September 14, 2016 at 7:01 pm
Original Link


Thanks lol

on September 14, 2016 at 7:57 pm
Original Link

“C’mon gents. Pipe up. Go down fighting or nah.”

Since you asked lol:

Give us a reason/benefit to it.

Not being flippant. We grew up being told what to do by the FI without asking questions. We acted like Nice Guys and it got us fuck all. We stood up for ourselves and got punished for it. We married and got divorce-raped. We trusted our government and got fucked. We trusted the media and are learning it’s as corrupt as can be. We put our heads down and did our work like good little employees and got fired or laid off instead of having careers for life. We tried to be good fathers and ended up with little “man-caves” in the garage if our wives allowed it, and found out our kids weren’t even ours. We tried to be good boyfriends like society told us to and we got cheated on and dumped. We worked shit jobs to provide for a family and instead of being the respected man of the household we ended up the Ray Romano in a deadbedroom. We watched guys get into fights over girls and end up dead. We watched guys get into fights over girls and then the girls dump them or go off with the other guys. We watched firefighters bust their ass to run into the towers on 9/11 and go through hell and now every youtube video about it is full of memes and jokes zero fucks given. We watch guys working construction and running IT and hauling garbage and doing and keeping society functioning every single day doing the right thing, and no one gives a shit about them…other men spit on them and women disregard them as wastes of space because they aren’t the rich CEO asshole (who’s NOT following the rules) etc etc

If we didn’t do those things directly ourselves, we have friends, brothers, uncles, fathers, anecdotes, forums, etc where we see those stories second-hand.

And we watched you previous generations do what you’re told without asking questions. We see how old veterans are treated, we learned in history class how much of a shitshow the Vietnam war was and how many guys just did what they were told and were “real men” and died, then came back and were spit on by society. We watched you guys do all sorts of shit because you were “supposed to” and get fucked over for it, for the sake of “being a man”.

We’re watching guys marry single moms beacuse it’s “the right thing to do”, we’re watching guys marry shitty girls that they SHOULD leave and KNOW are shit but they’re following society’s script to “man up”. We’re watching men not ask for paternity tests or sign pre-nups because it’s “the right thing to do” and a “real man” wouldn’t do that shit. We’re watching men avoid the red pill and take up feminism because they’re chasing the approval of society that they’re “real men”. We’re watching men follow the script of what everyone tells them “being a man” is and the vast majority of the time it ends up being code for “self-sacrifice and take risks for no real reward except your “betters” will pat you on the back and give you their approval, as if that’s actually worth anything.”

So ya, we’re perfectly happy to bust our ass and stand up for shit and get into a fight and go down fighting.

…but you better give us a reason to that holds up better than “because I said so…you don’t want people to think you’re some pussy instead of a REAL man, do you?” ’cause that’s the exact same shaming and lack of reason/benefit that the FI has used on us our entire life to get us to a point where we seek out a site like Rollo’s.

We didn’t shake off the shackles of society’s shaming only to trade them in for new shackles from other Red Pill men. If you have a reason for us to self-sacrifice, then we’re open to hearing it. But shaming us with the FI-conditioned notion of “being a REAL man” isn’t good enough anymore.

on September 14, 2016 at 8:00 pm
Original Link

“and died, then came back”

AS ZOMBIES APPARENTLY lol gotta proofread.

Stalling for Time

Original Link

via Rational Male

on September 14, 2016 at 8:19 pm
Original Link


Too vague an answer. What objective observable freedom do I get by fighting 3 guys in a nightclub over a girl I’ve just met when I could just shrug and walk away?

on September 14, 2016 at 8:31 pm
Original Link

Excellent post. Describes SO FUCKING MANY girls that I’ve met to a fucking T lol Fucking hilarious, you nailed that shit.

@Jonah Hill
I feel bad for him because he DID legitimately lose weight and get skinny for a while but then no one thought he was as funny as when he was the funny fat guy (and I don’t think he knew how to handle looking different, he always seemed to dodge questions about his weight loss and try to change the subject when people asked him about it, I think he was uncomfortable in his new skin, like when a girl gets hot and starts feeling like people only like her because of her looks etc), so he got a reference of “even when I work hard to physically look more like Leo and Pitt, no one wants me” and now he’s back to fat, probably with fucking ENDLESS self-esteem issues from that whole roller-coaster…

And then this nobody chick just obliterates him for no reason on TV that he knows will circle the internet forever. Poor fucking guy. And he can’t even burn her back or he looks butthurt reactive and he instinctively knows that that’s why he goes quiet with his rebuttal and mentions LOCAL anchor because he wants SO bad to tell her she’s fucking nothing compared to the status he’s achieved in his life. His chode beta roles have more to do with it than his actual looks, he made a career out of playing the beta sidekick and embracing it. Nothing but sympathy for the dude, I hope Leo and Pitt gave him a hug.

Goes back to what Patrice O’Neal says: “You know how I know you don’t got a man? Because I’m a 300lbs big black dude who could CRUSH you with one hand, and you talk to me like THAT. ’cause you don’t got a man in your life to tell you to shut the fuck up.”

You got this shit down solid, good stuff. We need you in a better city ASAP lol you will be like a tornado unleashed on it. On the phone just act as if you expect her to remember you (like it’s unexpected to you that a girl wouldn’t remember you because all girls remember you) and/or bust her on not remembering, exaggerate that she’s broken your heart and you two planned the wedding and named your kids and she doesn’t remember any of it bla bla, just spike her buying temp with some roleplaying and DHV shit, ’cause you’re back in A1 with those girls. But don’t get caught in dancing monkey, push it through the stages, when she’s giving you A2, move into A3 etc and push for a meetup, you’re calling to arrange a meetup, not calling to shoot the shit like her girlfriend.

Remember breaking rapport tonality, dominant, don’t speed through your talking, sometimes it helps to be doing something else while you’re on the phone like playing with something or cooking or whatever so that your brain isn’t stressed out focusing on the outcome. I had a buddy who would call girls when he was driving or walking somewhere lol

@Via Vitae
“Not everyone is game. Don’t sweat it.”

Oh I won’t lol

on September 14, 2016 at 8:34 pm
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No thanks:

on September 14, 2016 at 10:05 pm
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@Rollo @Blaximus

“Cosign YaReally’s comment on going down swinging. I posted that Pulp Fiction vid because it’s always struck me as an illustration of how a man’s sense of honor is now more of a liability than the virtue it used to be under the old set of books and the traditional social contract.”

Basically we had it used to control us a SHITLOAD for the benefit of other people who barely even appreciate it now (or worse punish us for it)…Blaximus was probably REWARDED for following those codes, back in his day, so there was a benefit to them.

My generation is just so tired of being used for other people’s purposes, our needs and desires ignored, shamed, called “toxic masculinity” and told to stay in our place and do what we’re told for no discernable reason except “we, people who’ve just decided we’re better than you, know what’s best for you”…and we TRUSTED them, and you, and everyone like you. That’s how we ended up here, after figuring out, very slowly, that we were lied to by people who were using us for their own benefit and just hoping they could keep us in the dark and from asking questions long enough for us to be too invested to bail on the deal even after we figured out we were suffering and no one cared as we watched all the things we were promised if we “did the right thing” and followed orders without asking why, didn’t come true, and often the opposite nightmare came true…the nightmare that we were told following orders without asking “why” would help us AVOID.

The Nice Guy is nice because he wants to get a girlfriend but ends up an asexual friend zone non-entity to the girl. The jacked guy gets built to get a girlfriend but finds out they still don’t want him because he doesn’t have game. The rich guy gets rich and girls tool him and toss him aside like that French girl tooling Jonah Hill, a guy who worked his ASS off to be successful, who’s been in some of the funniest fucking movies (Superbad is an epic movie), and even got skinny again and it doesn’t matter, he goes on TV and gets raped in front of a world-wide audience by some no-name chick that’s going to hit the wall in a few years. A guy studies to have a high-earning career, following orders like a good little chode thinking it’ll get him a better chance with women and he gets rejected by a girl who thinks he picked a boring area of it to specialize in. A guy stays faithful to his wife while she cheats behind his back and then gets falsely accused by her of being abusive so she can avoid taking responsibility as his friends and family shun him and he worries about jailtime.

We’re just tired of people, who half the time seem infinitely more fucked up than we are, expecting us to follow their orders just because they’re good at shaming and bullying us into defaulting to respecting them when they haven’t even earned it from us.

We’re open to doing shit, even self-sacrificing, but you better be able to explain to us what WE get out of it. Cause as I type this it’s going to go through servers run and programmed by guys who helped create this incredible world-wide networking system we’re all using to talk about this shit, and those guys are ignored by society…men don’t want to help them because they don’t respect them, they have no guidance because masculinity is toxic and men around kids must all be pedophiles, and women don’t even register them as human, the way that chick doesn’t view Jonah as human enough to have feelings.

So ya, what’s objectively and logically in it for us? That’s all we wanna know, and vague things like “freedom” and “being a man” and “respect” don’t cut it anymore.

“We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars…but we won’t. We’re slowly learning that fact…and we’re very, VERY pissed off.”

“I’ve got a few essays on the original meaning of chivalry too, but the main idea is that pride and honor are used more as leverage to move a man to self-sacrifice and hostilities that he would never have considered were someone (a woman) to call his pride, honor and integrity into question if he wouldn’t comply.”

This comes back to the marriage thing. That’s why we won’t just accept “it just IS”. We want to hear a list of objective quantifiable consistently demonstratable benefits for our sacrifice. And if there ARE some, then we are HAPPY to sacrifice. But if not, well, we’ve had a lifetime of that and it got us to places like this once we looked behind the curtain.

“I don’t have the same view ( surprise ) because of a different experience in life.”

Totally fine, we both know you and I don’t have the same view on this. But I think I speak for a lot of guys in my generation who come to the red pill community. And you were probably rewarded for your actions. We get shit on and taken advantage of for the same actions…often by the people who TOLD us to take those actions (women telling us to be Nice Guys then friend zoning us, people telling us to speak up then scolding us when we do, people telling us to open up about our feelings then making fun of us or shaming us when we do etc).

“I asked the question because I’m trying to have where men, young and old, come down on that idea of ” not going down without a fight “.”

We will, as long as there’s a reason for it. You give me a good reason (like protecting a loved one or something I believe in (like the 8 pages of defending my point in the last thread) and I’ll fight till the bitter end and beyond. But it better be a good reason, ’cause I refuse to be just another disposable male, used by people who think they know better what’s best for me and who will shrug and go “oh that’s a shame, so anyway onto a new topic” if I get fucked over.

“I’m speaking strictly about a man’s desire to stand up for himself and not just fold.”

Stand up for himself against what exactly, and for what benefit? Against 3 guys for some club girl? No. Against 3 guys for a loved one? Ya. Because we can objectively see cost/benefits to that stuff. There’s no universal “always go jump into a fight”.

@Via Vitae
“get turned into a homeless dude getting stabbed whiteknighting a girl?”

Dunno, the question was pretty vague about just “not going down without a fight” and the example used was fighting 3 guys for kissing a girl, so I assume “fighting in relation to a girl” was part of the question.

“I took Blax’s question to be about what would you do when your back’s up against the wall and you are out of options.”

In that case the benefit is clear: survival, so ya, you go down swinging. Running away from 3 guys and GETTING AWAY then having your Uncle make you go fight them isn’t survival, that’s bravado. First thing I learned when I took a McDojo martial arts class as a kid was to be egoless enough to walk away from a fight unless there was no other option…and if there’s no other option, then ya, go down swinging obviously.

I mean who wouldn’t go down swinging fighting for one’s self lol But if you’re Michael Cera, running away from 3 guys with knives isn’t a bad idea. That’s not really about going down fighting, that’s just being smart and calculating odds.

“Okay. Maybe I was too vague. I didn’t think that guys would automatically think about others before themselves.”

We were socially conditioned to self-sacrifice for others so we wouldn’t complain about entering lopsided contracts and doing things for all risk no reward for other people’s benefits. ’cause no one gives a shit about us, we’re a hammer to be used by society, we don’t have wants needs etc those are shameful and silly and everyone else’s needs are more important.

So ya, some of us probably automatically think about others first lol

on September 14, 2016 at 10:22 pm
Original Link

@Via Vitae
“Would you be willing to join a grassroots political movement if you felt that it could effectively pushback against this and other mistreatments? There would be sacrifices, especially of free time, but would it be worth it to you?”

It would depend entirely on the movement, the purpose, the other people involved, the risks involved and whether the benefits outweigh them etc. If the case is solid then it should be easy for the people involved to present that case convincingly and if I’m convinced then sure I’m on board.

Saying “would you sign a contract” is a too vague a question…no one should sign a contract without reading the details on it lol

on September 14, 2016 at 10:29 pm
Original Link

@Via Vitae
I think you and I have different definitions of “presenting a case” and “providing details” lol More info required.

on September 14, 2016 at 10:45 pm
Original Link

@Via Vitae
lol wut? Why am I supposed to provide the example? You’re the one asking me if I’d join some kind of movement. If you have a good movement that has a good case and I see benefit in it then sure I’d join it. If you don’t then I wouldn’t. I don’t know what you want ME to come up with here lol

on September 14, 2016 at 11:46 pm
Original Link

@Via Vitae
“Like could you see yourself ever making such a speech in front of a room of real guys, maybe guys on the fence.”

Sure, if I thought I could reach them and wouldn’t suffer severe consequences for it (because there are alternative ways for them to get the same information with no risk of consequences). I talk about red pill stuff with guys I trust in real life all the time lol (if we’re out at a bar together you’re basically getting a free bootcamp from me if you want it while we go have fun) But Tyler/RSD and Mystery and those guys do a good enough job of presenting concepts to an audience, that’s why I link their videos. The same information is passed on to men that I would pass on, minus risking being the next #takedownjulienblanc lol

“Or it really could be anything, but obviously something more to just us guys talking to each other on this board.”

Sounds like what Roosh was trying to do with the RVF meetup. Unfortunately 2016 and social media etc have created an environment where this is a risk:

And Superman here almost got shot by a white knight (who was “being a man” wanting to kill an “obvious rape-supporter” because that’s what we’re characterized as by the mainstream media, at 3:30 when he’s frustrated that he can’t pull out his gun because a bystander not a part of their group is watching) for going to the RVF meetup:

So the benefits to live meetups as far as I can tell don’t outweigh the risks…there’s no real benefit to giving a live speech to a room of 30 men (except a temporary psychological state-boost for us from the tribalism that will fade after a short period of time) when posting on the Internet I can reach thousands of men with neither myself or the men I’m talking to having to risk being Superman in that video.

“Have you ever wondered about doing something more?”

Whatever that “more” is would have to come with clear benefits to it that outweigh the risks/cost, that couldn’t be gotten in other lower risk/cost ways. Not being flippant, just like, Tyler benefits from talking to a roomful of men because he makes his income from running a pickup company. So that outweighs the risk of this for him:

And, it’s one of the more graphic and creepy things I’ve ever had to put in an article. So, be warned:

“Say you’ve got a tribe, and there’s this fucking lion that’s come and eaten five or six members of your tribe… Everyone’s scared of the scary cat. So you come along, and that scary cat comes out, and you grab that thing by the fucking neck. [Cook begins to growl] And you fucking choke it to death. And you take it, you take its dead body. And you buttfuck it as you stare at the tribe. So you’re the guy that killed and buttfucked the scary cat… Now you’ve got a poopy dick. This is where the “attraction is not a choice” thing comes in… If you buttfucked the scary cat, those girls are going to line up to suck that poopy dick.”

Cook’s gleeful description of raping an imaginary dead lion in order to attract hypothetical women in a hypothetical tribe, in all of its gory detail, is clearly disturbing. But it’s not even the worst instance of Cook’s aggressive “seduction” philosophy that has been caught on video

lolol That article is a hilarious read btw. Tyler actually makes fun of this “they took the lion quote and it’s like can you not tell that was a JOKE??” in his latest video. Tyler gives NO fucks anymore lol

on September 14, 2016 at 11:55 pm
Original Link

@Via Vitae
Guy who wrote that Tyler Vice article:

Because of course lol

Notice how the Vice article and all the people in that RVF meetup video are men, playing white knight and virtue signalling. This is why I ask “why?” when someone I don’t know tries to get me to do something for secret/vague reasons. These guys have been fed bullshit by the mainstream media about what the RVF guys were about, and fed bullshit about “being a man” and protecting women etc. That kid in the hoodie was willing to pull out a gun on a man he doesn’t even know or understand, because he listened to the mainstream media instead of asking questions and thinking for himself. He’s willing to self-sacrifice and risk jail etc, for no reason and no benefit, because people are using him to benefit others and he is disposable.

So maybe this helps make my answer to Blaximus more clear too. We figured out that a lot of people we trusted lied to us and took advantage of our trust to use us as pawns. If I know you and trust you, cool, I might take your word for it…but if you aren’t my close friend then you gotta bring some good reason to the table for me to do “the right thing” or “be a man”.

Stalling for Time

Original Link

via Rational Male

on September 16, 2016 at 11:29 am
Original Link

That voice jesus lol He makes Tyler sound manly. Pretty busted face too. Never seen or heard of this guy before. Watching the first vid as I type this.

The part that fucks with guys is that you can HAVE a nasally lispy gay voice like that and it doesn’t really matter THAT much if you make up for it in other ways. You have to flip X number of switches and if you can’t flip some of them you flip others to make up for it. Very technically sound game can make up for deficiencies elsewhere.

Despite his flamey voice, he does speak with commanding/breaking rapport, he leads, he plows through their resistance/frame, he’s not afraid to touch them and get up in their space and command their attention (“look at me, focus, focus, HEY”) and just lead the interaction somewhere instead of standing around having a chat waiting for the girls to lead it. And he has good calibration…when they resist TOO much (like she says she HAS to keep walking), he adapts and walks WITH her, in a leading way, and then pro-actively grabs her friend to lead them both, talks about sexual topics, spikes their emotions when he needs to, etc

Uses getting her a pair of flats for a few bucks as an excuse (since they’ll probably have to walk around a lot to get wherever he’s going and she’s been in Vegas heels all night) to get her to venue change/trust/etc. “I love everything about what you’re saying”. Part of it is ya her feet will be more comfortable, but also he’s like “we’re gonna get shoes then we’re gonna get chili fries then go over here and chill bla bla” like, he’s a man with a plan swooping in to take charge and lead her toward a better “life” (for that night’s adventure at least). Why WOULDN’T she go with him?

lol @ all the way better looking/built dudes alone or with sausage-fests eating, while the flamey dude has a girl. But he sat her facing the room with tons of stimulus and usually that’ll give her higher ASD ’cause she can SEE people that might be watching them. I’d have reversed the seats so she’s got her back to the room and is just seeing him and the window so he has her full focus. I’d be surprised if she made out, though it’s Vegas so there’s a bit of YOLO so she might.

I believe this guy’s infield a lot more than I believe Tom Torrero’s shitty infield, in the “tall ugly guy” category lol

“Did you give me your number yet?”
“I don’t take numbers.
“Well are you GONNA give me your number?”
“What if we have to split up?”
“Then it’s not meant to be.”
“Then it’s not meant to be.” (all of this in breaking rapport tonality)
“??? REALLY???”

As she rambles, confused by what’s going on (including saying “I KNOW you can get another girl”), he just goes “SHHH…eat this fry.” fucking lol out of the logical debate mode and into spiking her emotions.

(to the camera) “NEVER take a number in a set that’s going this well. NEVER.”

Dude knows his shit. I’d never heard of him before so I thought maybe he was bullshitting that he worked for RSD but this is all RSD level technical game I’m seeing here.

Also again with the Euro guys, I can’t think of any infield I’ve seen of them where the girl is asking for or demanding THEIR number VS the other way around. The difference between having good A1-A3 and getting solid A2.

Weird that the clip ends suddenly but whether he ditched her ’cause finding the friends would’ve been an all-nighter thing (or predicted she’d pass out as soon as they finally got back to her hotel etc) and he’s in Vegas so he knows he can go get another one, or whether he went and banged and came back doesn’t really matter. Everything he ran was solid and the level of attraction he had at the end was enough to pull. Like, if you get to the point he did with a girl and DON’T end up pulling, you dropped the ball HARD somewhere lol

Second set looks solid too. Interrupting the kiss to make it less of a big ASD-triggering deal (it’s just “fun fun fun” instead of super serious). Carrying her shoes and leading is solid too…technically supplicative to carry her shit, but it’s a lock-in prop. He knows when to be “gentlemanly” to shave some time/logistical hurdles off the sarge (like the first girl if her feet hurt too much she probably would have bailed too soon etc). Even when he’s walking to where THEY’RE headed, he leads them “Come, let’s go, come on this way” and walks them there. That’s subtle but it’s demonstrating leadership dominance etc

He has a good overall attitude. Push sets, see where they go, try to take them as far as possible for the adventure, enjoy it, have no regrets etc

The Vegas and booze aspect does come into play a bit, girls are up for an adventure on vacation etc But the stuff he’s doing would work just fine on normal girls.

Don’t have time to watch all the vids in-depth right now but the next vid it looks like he opens just fine and commands her to put on her sandals and takes the lead of where she’s going (all “giving value”). Her life is improved by interacting with him.

“We should move out of the way of everyone”
“No fuck that”
“You’re feisty, I like that” (can’t remember what he said but it was along those lines)

That’s good calibration. Like even if she DOESN’T follow his lead he turns it into qualifying her. Same as Cajun’s classic “I like her because she’s the only one who gave me shit when I first talked to you 3” on Keys to the VIP. Classic stuff.

Fucking lol, preselection hooks the bikini blonde and he sees the window and takes it to open her. Triggering a jealousy plotline now the girl is like “OKAY WE’RE GOING (this guy is MINE, bitch)” lol

His girl keeps trying to lead, strong independent womyn. This is what I’m talking about VS the Euro infield where the girls all just INSTANTLY stop and have nothing to do, nowhere to go, no one to meet up with, nothing to do but stop and listen to some awkard “I saw you……and you looked like……a cute little squirrel” opener lol Most of these girls would just stomp through that stuff. Then she’s got phone issues and her friend txting or whatever bla bla Tons of interrupts that no one in Europe ever gets apparently lol Those guys should have like a 100% success rate out there with how generously compliant and friendly and bored the girls are.

“I have to go to my room”
“I’ll walk you there, my father taught me bla bla I’m sober and trustworthy bla bla”

All good shit here…using being a gentleman as the excuse to get isolated up to her room, baby stepping closer to the goal. I use this and the reverse of this: “I’ll walk you there” or on a Day2 I’ll often use “you have to walk me home, it’s dark and I’m scared, someone might rape me” etc because I pick a venue near my apartment.

His description of a previous story of “crunch time” because there’s people in the room, trying to escalate fast before you get to the shitty logistical situation and taking her into the staircase is hilarious. Been there a bunch of times myself lol This guy knows what he’s doing, these are the stories guys who push their sets end up with.

I have a buddy who doesn’t push his sets like he should be, and I went through a period where I was very pro-actively pushing my sets to see what limiting beliefs I could break. When we pull girls together, he’s always just sort of going along with it, while I’m taking notes of “ok make her lag behind the my buddy and his girl so we have isolation and I can kiss her, there’s a corner I can let them walk around and then pin her against to escalate a bit harder then pull away, he has a mail room with dim lights by the elevator I can pull her into to “miss” the elevator and take a second one which’ll give us both isolation” etc etc

Like when you do it enough you learn to spot all the little things in the environment you can use to help you out. But that comes from actually pushing your sets. Like he says “don’t just give up at the lobby”.

Does some final minor testing/qualifying as he gets the number trying to solidify it. Could probably use some more of that but she’s in such a hurry and she’s only there for one day etc so whatever. He did a lot with what he was given.

Okay no time to watch the rest. What I saw was good solid technical game though. This guy has my thumbs-up of approval and I’ll be watching his vids to see what I can learn from them myself. Thanks for linking him, I’ve literally never even seen thumbnails for his vids till now lol

“Regarding Frank, I get what you mean. I would say this: his personality is off.”
“My theory with guys like that is that they are missing something personality wise; wether its genetic in origin or from early childhood is anyone’s guess.”

Fucking who cares lol Tyler’s a sperglord but he slays it. Todd is a walking zombie in terms of charisma. Girls don’t really care as long as you’re flipping attraction switches. How a guy is in set to the girl can be very different from how he is when he’s teaching content. Some guys are spergy teachers or just super in the zone when they teach this stuff because it’s fascinating to them. All that matters is when the girl is around him, how does he come off to her, and in-set this guy is bringing good positive value and comes off congruent to the girls.

Like you have to view the guy how the GIRLS view him, not how us guys view him watching him teach or watching the set from afar. And the POINT of game is that you can TAKE a sperglord or guy with low charisma and teach him the core fundamental technical game and he can do wonders with just THAT (and ideally he develops charisma over time, like Tyler still has his spergy awkward moments (and he knows he probably always will) but overall he’s a charismatic guy in his talks).

This shit usually comes from guys thinking all pickups have to look like alpha male James Bond’s lol The guy is running technically solid game and girls don’t care about James Bond as much as guys do. They just want a guy to flip the right switches and to come off believably congruent.

“and even there it is their best captured sets on camera – I’m sure their mediocre sets are… mediocre”

RSD shows some mediocre sets too, but they look just like you’d expect…same general thing but toned down, some blowouts, etc Nothing earth-shattering and you can always look at the subcomms etc and tell where they fucked up (if they don’t have a breakdown pointing it out themselves). Just saying, like, they DO show that you can pull with just “boring” lower energy game that’s just solid on a technical level.

“But this guy Frank is interesting because there is a guy on SedFast named “Tank” who is exactly in the same boat in terms of SMV; 30 years old, average height, good build and boring personality. But Tank can’t get laid to save his soul. He’s basically thinking of going MGTOW.”

Fucking insane lol I can’t even wrap my head around a guy who’s 30 giving up. Just hit the field and focus on the technical shit, take some bootcamps if you can’t figure out your sticking points from doing your FRs etc

This is why game was super technical back in Mystery’s day, because none of the nerds knew HOW to be charismatic or cool lol That’s why I don’t like the “just be cool bro” style of teaching “just go up and say whatever” etc It works for some guys, usually ones who have a basic level of social skills to begin with, but to get a hardcase newbie consistent success he’s gotta build from the ground up which means ya, writing down some routines, studying the old technical shit, doing basic exercises infield, etc

“My thought is that Frank actually understands PUA tech because he was an assistant to RSD. Tank on the other hand is trying to get this stuff off of the interwebs. Do you hear that Culum?”

Tons of us have learned it off the interwebs. We didn’t even have infield video to reference. But whoever Tank is, he’s probably not doing his Field Reports, or not pushing himself infield and is just “winging it”, or he’s using shitty material to learn from…or he may need one on one coaching if he’s doing all that and still fucking up.

“But this is just what Todd and Jeffy do”

You don’t NEED kino. Like I say I rarely do any kino. But without it, you have to demonstrate value in other ways (laser eye-contact, cut the space between your faces, speak with slow bedroom tonality, etc) Again it comes down to “you have to flip X number of this group of switches, if you don’t flip some you gotta flip some others to make up for it, flip enough and you get the lay”.

But they do LEAD, both directly and overall metaphorically, even if it’s just commanding verbals and directing the conversation etc

Like I wouldn’t kino in a situation where she has a bunch of girlfriends with her. Maybe she has a boyfriend and my kino’ing is going to trigger the mother hen to come in and break it up, I don’t know. Maybe if I lead her away from where we were, her friends will panic and come find her VS if they could see us just standing there having a conversation. I’d be focusing more on lasers and verbals and sexual topics etc and ideally try to position us so that it looks like she’s gaming me, to ward off the friends.

“Everything I’ve read from Culum indicates that he just can’t do this despite the volumes of digital ink he’s read from YaReally.”

He’s just new, he’ll get there. You guys are way too harsh on newbies.

“A year at the most. Anything past that and you know you are dealing with dysfunction.”

Nah, depends on where you’re starting from and how much effort you’re putting in and whether you’re following a solid gameplan for learning etc

Culum spends a few weeks not sarging and then goes on his blitzes, so the first night or two out will always be his brain getting back up to speed.

@Culum Struan
“then most of them left but HB7 and her friend (who also gave me solid EC when they first came to the bar) stayed behind to get the drinks and pay for them.”

pAImAI. Just throw a “hey, where’s good to eat around here?” over your shoulder at them and odds are they’ll help the conversation along. If you were a homeless person smelling like cat shit twitching and covered in blood would she “accidentally” bump into you a bunch of times? No she’d made sure she’s on the other side of the fucking room lol She knows what she’s doing.

“Eventually just as she was paying (her friend just left to go back to the group so she was alone) I opened her and teased her about causing problems (her card had been declined, she needed to try again) and she blew right open”

Good open, took a while but at least you got in there. And she blew open because she was pAImAI’ing and was thankful you opened. A lot of times the feeling you see them have isn’t even just thankful, it’s RELIEF lol Like “oh thank GOD he figured out my secret code to save me from NOT meeting him”

“Then I pretty much let it fizzle kino, went blank on continuing the conversation and she picked up her drink and left.”

What were you SUPPOSED to say? You got a routine stack locked & loaded like hank? DHV stories to tell? Cold-reads to read on her? Qualifiers to bust her on?

Kino’s great but even without it you should have some shit queued up. You watched Julien’s PIMP vids (the free ones on YouTube have enough in them alone) about asking boring interview questions (you’ve already got A2 so you don’t need to get fancy) and MAKING them interesting with teasing, qualifying, different tonalities, laser eye-contact, cutting the space, etc?

Or are you going out and just “winging it” like most guys do?

“I was doing better than this even in the last Blitz – partly because I was in the groove and partly because I was drinking lots.”

This is why we try to make you not drink, ’cause when you have success while drinking you end up attaching your “fun persona” to the booze and then sober it’s like “I can’t be fun, I’m sober!!” lol

“And yes, with the girl with the chode I didn’t even try opening for which I am kicking myself. I did mean trying to AMOG him – hadn’t even thought about your approach (although it did occur to me ask something like “So how long have you guys been together”) to see if she blew him out. Will keep that in mind for next time.”

How about “Hey, where’s good to eat around here?” If she was bored of him, she’ll be relieved you entered the set…ignore her (MM Group Theory) to engage the guy and bust on her when she tries to jump into the conversation, then like Jeffy does in that video just keep spiking her emotions and tell stories etc as you position yourself in a way where she turns her back to the guy to talk to you and he’ll probably slink off if they aren’t a couple. If they ARE a couple one of them will eventually make it clear and you can just go “cool thanks for the advice” no biggie but now you’ve been talking to a girl for a few min which the girls around you will see.

Or you can do the “sorry to interrupt your date lol you two should check out the blah the view is romantic as fuck” etc as if you’re offering value and see if she blows him out (while simultaneously seeding your extraction excuse…”let’s go see that view I told you about”) etc like the other guys said. I usually test to see if she’ll just ignore the guy for me first though, ’cause it’s less direct confrontation lol

“It’s a kind of buffer really – it’s easier to think of “making progress” than to go all in and focus on P in V – even typing this out I can feel the resistance inside – it’s scary to focus on that instead of something safer like “some progress” (same point Hank just made too).”

I’m telling gb_hill, Sentient, etc not to be so harsh on you, but you DO have to step up what your goal is. You’re not there to have a nice chat…THEY’RE not there to “have a nice chat”. They’re going home sexually frustrated to wear out their vibrators. They spend $300 getting their hair, nails, makeup, shoes, outfits, waxing, shaving, etc to get all done up and go out and meet some COOL GUY that they LIKE and then he’s like “so want to hang out some OTHER time?” or walks off or lets the interaction die without taking it anywhere…imagine how frustrated you’d be if you were blowing $300 to go out and and meet a hot girl and NOT get her lol

Watch the Julien PIMP snippets on YouTube about keeping the interaction going and then watch those Frank infield vids gb_hill linked, he has a good frame of leading things forward. You’re there to PULL.

If focusing on P in V is too daunting, at least focus on “getting them out of the venue” or “getting them to somewhere to eat”. That’ll at LEAST get your mind out of “this interaction will start and end inside these four walls” mode.

“I think it’s easy to get lost inside my head trying to focus on my memorized structure and when to DHV and when to tease etc – in practice it just seems to lead to me freezing up thinking of the next step and letting the set fizzle out (although I’m pretty comfortable with opening now).”

99% of the time conversations fizzling out is because your brain is trying to think of “what’s good enough, what would SHE enjoy talking about” instead of “what makes ME laugh, what’s self-amusing to ME?” This is my favorite vid on that:

Do your routines, DHVs, teases, etc actually amuse YOU?

And if it’s too much, just small-chunk it. You have 11 days so tonight focus on lasers and cutting space. Tomorrow focus on working your cold-read in. Next night focus on qualifying her, etc etc Push all the sets and aim for the pull but like, in terms of consciously thinking of game you can do it a bit at a time.

“continuing the conversation to its full extent (even if it means lapsing into GLL chode talk)”

YouTube for Julien’s free PIMP clips about asking chode interview questions (GLL chode talk) while keeping them interesting through subcomms etc, that should help you not panic when you run out of “good” stuff to say. And really think about the type of humor that makes you, personally, laugh.

“Watching for the IOIs and escalating and leading at the right time and kinoing early (with focussed sexual intent on pulling her).”

If you don’t do kino, make damn sure you’re doing lasers and cutting space. Liam McRae Rapid Escalation on YouTube.

“I probably will make plenty of mistakes on the technical/conversational/structure side of things”

You’ll make a million mistakes but it’s fine lol Just hit enough switches and lead things somewhere instead of hoping she leads it somewhere or waiting for it to “just happen”. Frank does a great job of leading in every set it looks like, whether he’s aggressively kino’ing or not.

“I have a social circle event tonight”

If you can’t pull ’cause it would be drama, then social circle events are great for focusing on lasers, merging sets, and using preselection. If you get a girl giving you iois, bust out some qualifying along with the lasers. Figure out if you can get isolation (stay till the end of the event, venue change the event once you have A2 so you can walk alongside her, leave the event to get something together (“we’ll go grab the ice/drinks”)).

@Culum @Sentient @gb_hill
“See? You are still focusing on conversation when you know subcommunication is the goal.”

Yup. Julien, YouTube, PIMP snippets and Liam McRae Rapid Escalation. Waaaaaatch em.

“This is why I hate stair stepping so much… it just reinforces failure and bad practice…”

Nah it’s fine. You guys get your panties in way too much of a twist over this shit lol A guy’s gotta learn some lessons about failure and how it’s not really that big a deal when it happens etc too. Nothing is worse than a guy who develops an “I never fail” ego who’s scared to fail and develops outcome dependence because he hasn’t failed enough for his brain to understand that it’s really not a big deal AND can (SHOULD) be fun. This goes back to what Julien talks about in the Julien Luke video I just linked, where even if he gets blown out it doesn’t affect him and builds his state because he’s self-amusing.

““I opened her and teased her about causing problems (her card had been declined, she needed to try again) and she blew right open – [KINO HERE – arm on shoulder as she laughs] big smile, EC, explaining something I couldn’t hear [KINO HERE – arm on shoulder motion her in to speak in your ear, turn head and have her lean into you, drop arm to lower back as she talks in your ear] over the music which I joked about. [KINO HERE – arm on elbow to lead and “hey it’s loud here, move over here a sec” and move her away from her group, but not too far, take hand if you can manage it] NOW you are a few feet away, position her back to her group so she can’t see them, she is following your lead, you’ve touched her a few times… just go back into basic convo LOGISTICS first “who you here with” and let her give you the low down… “Yeah cool. They seem like fun” then basics “yeah I am just here for business, tell me a few places to go to”… but now you laser and then carry on with more banter.

Now play back the same thing above… but this time you OPEN as soon as you see that first IOI, not wait for her to hit the fourth… Whole thing is amplified… you could have kino’d her right off the arm bump.. tease her with hey watch those things Pointy and touch her elbow and when she laughs you kino again to her shoulder “just kidding” and go into a little what’s up basic convo, then slide her down with the “it’s noisy” after she pays out… her friend left because she had the many subcomms that the girl was into you… so she would have left you guys…”

All good shit. I only point out the “kino isn’t necessary” thing because I don’t like the dogmatic “IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO GET LAID WITHOUT GROPING HER UP IN FRONT OF HER FRIENDS” mentality. It’s important to understand that it’s not necessary if you’re flipping other switches, but if you’re not flipping those switches then ya either throw some kino in or learn to flip those other switches (lasers, cut space, Attract Attract Attract)

“If you don’t get any traction now in these places by 10PM, now you can head to a club,it is still early…”

And don’t forget street game around the bar district, VS going right into the club.

Props on going out Culum (and hank), good luck with the blitz.

on September 18, 2016 at 7:42 am
Original Link

@Culum Struan
Good shit dude.

“I even fluffed an easy PAIMAI approach invite.”

Got a routine opener for when girls pAImAI you yet? It’s gonna keep happening and you’re gonna keep blanking lol The point of having default routines is that when you can’t think of anything to say or what to do you can just default to them. Something as simple as “hey where’s good to eat around here?” would have blown those two wide open.

“PLUS stuff: Did not stare at my phone at all (except to check the time) and did not drink at all.”

Props for both of these. Two of the worst habits in a social environment, and also two of the hardest habits to break for most people.

“Totally made it worth it to go out feeling exhausted (plus I was dressed like crap and hadn’t showered or shaved before going out).”

This is why I keep badgering guys to hit the field. ’cause you’ll go when you’re feeling prime, 99% of the time, but 1% of the time you’ll have a night where you feel like shit, or aren’t dressed well and can’t fix that, or your hair is retarded or whatever and you’ll go “ugh, but I SHOULD go out anyway I guess…” because it’s a routine habit and then you go out and the field will occasionally shove reference experiences in your face like this that help you break out of the “I have to be clean-shaven to get Attraction, I have to be wearing my custom-fitted suit, I have to have my hair groomed well, etc” and put you on the path to actually understanding how Attraction works.

“Something clicked in my head with that open- It really doesn’t matter what I say to open or what I talk about. I literally spouted gibberish and this two-set blew right open.”

Yup. Julien stresses this ENDLESSLY.

“I mean, not all sets will blow open like that but the thing is I just need to OPEN them and then see what the reaction is and handle the reaction and keep the interaction going. Not worry about “what to say”.”

Again like Julien says: you can’t predict how they’re going to react, so just throw ANYTHING out there and then deal with the reaction. Dealing with the reaction is where the meat of the open is played.

You know this consciously right NOW because you just had a good experience, but the next night you go out you’ll forget it and be trying to think of what’s “good enough” to say lol

This is why Julien and Luke talk about self-amusement in that video I linked…because if you’re going to say random shit and not care how good it is, then why not combine that with saying things that are self-amusing to YOU and hit YOUR particular sense of humor. In that video watch how Julien smiles to himself as soon as the things he says about incest or whatever are brought up, he can’t help but smile and laugh to himself because that’s hitting his particular self-amusement buttons whereas that same thing might not make someone else laugh like that.

When you watch Julien’s infield breakdowns you’ll see him laugh to himself a LOT about what he’s saying/doing and how retarded it is, but it’s because it’s self-amusing to HIM.

You want to find the things that cause that instinctive grin for yourself. So when you’re going up saying “anything” you’re also simultaneously saying “anything that makes ME laugh”, which 1) opens the set and 2) pumps your own state whether it goes well or not. Efficiency.

“Especially with such drunk girls. I mean I KNEW this, but somehow the experience of this open has made it “click” for me”

Field is king. Your brain needs to gather reference experiences. Can’t learn pickup from a computer chair.

“(she was drunk but she could have read the street signs or checked Google Maps).”


“I heard Sentient’s voice in my head saying “Kino, kino now” and I put my arm around her and drew her along walking with me saying “Yes, you go this way..” and started guiding her with the HB7 following.”

Remember: you don’t NEED to kino.

“Just then the HB7 started saying something like “She’s married, married with kids!!””

’cause it can trigger this. As long as you’re talking, lasering, walking beside eachother etc, it’s all good. But the second you kino you’re advertising that you’re trying to fuck her. Which is fine in a lot of situations, but it can also lead to this nightmare. This is why I don’t do it, especially now that I’m mid-30s on the early 20s chicks where some of their friends panic at the older guy thing.

“but I just ignored her”

Classic MM, befriend the friends and diffuse the cockblock. You can sometimes ignore them, but it’s taking a risk that you might be able to avoid if you befriend them.

She probably wasn’t lying if your girl didn’t actively say “no I’m not married”…by not saying ANYTHING she’s not “being a bad wife” (marriage yay!), so she can hamster rationalize that she didn’t do anything wrong, VS if she lied and said she wasn’t married and would be actively “cheating”. If she was actually single she’d adamantly deny it.

“Anyway HB6 didn’t have a ring or anything.”

Usually it’s in their purse/pocket or left at the friends’ house “so I don’t accidentally lose it”.

Whether she was married with two kids or not, that was a signal that you’re setting off red flags to the friend and it’s time to back off the kino ASAP and ideally disqualify yourself to the friend (“don’t worry I’m gay” or whatever).

Or if you’re feeling charming, bring the cockblock under your other arm so you’re walking with your arm around two girls.

And if she IS married with two kids, the arm around her is probably going to cause problems if they run into people they (or their husband(s)) know etc so the second there’s even a chance she’d married I would be dropping kino completely.

“She kept asking me where I was going and who I was meeting and which bar exactly and she told me exactly which bar they were going to”

She’s trying to arrange a hookup later in the night. If she can convince her group to go to your bar, or skip out on her group, etc, or if you can come to her bar, etc etc She’s looking for a way to hook up.

“to meet friends”

Combine this with the likelihood that she’s married with kids and now you have a time limit. ’cause you’re not gonna pull her away from a group of friends who know her and her hubby. You’re especially not gonna get away with kino’ing her in front of them lol So at this point it’s either get rid of the friend somehow so you can escalate to sex on the walk, Time Bridge a hookup for later in the night, or throw the hail mary and TRY to game her in the bar her friends are in but just be subtle as fuck about it. “I don’t want to get you in trouble so pretend you don’t know me, but come order a drink beside me” etc to get that sexy roleplay “we better not get caught” adventure and you might be able to get a bathroom pull out of it.

Kino triggered the friend so she’s not gonna let you have isolation and a number is almost 100% going to flake, so limited options.

If you hadn’t set off the friend’s cockblock flags and befriended her, you might have been able to get her to let you two have isolation.

Also note how much of a difference knowing her logistical situation makes…she handed it to you voluntarily on a silver platter, but THIS is why Julien harps so much on finding out the logistics in the first few minutes. Because that tells you how much time you have to work with, what obstacles you’re going to have to avoid or diffuse, what type of closes are possible, etc

“I said I’m meeting friends near the bar she’s going to but I hadn’t got the text saying which bar yet and that I had been with a different group of friends in another bar nearby”

Fast thinking lol

“she grabbed my hand to check if I had a wedding ring. She quizzed me hard about my relationship status -asked if I was married (I said no). Asked if I had girlfriend (I said no). Then she asked “Do you have any girls on the side?” And I said “What do you mean?” and she was like “You, know like any friends with benefits?””

She’s trying to see if you’ll judge her for being married and fucking you, and if you’ll be causing drama for her falling in love with her, and looking to rationalize her own cheating behavior with “well he’s cheating TOO so I’m not a bad wife”, etc etc

You might actually have been better off saying you WERE married or had a girlfriend (learned this dynamic first-hand when I was in a pLTR and decided to just tell girls I was in one to see what would happen lol the girls who had husbands/boyfriends were often GLAD I had a girlfriend…the single ones weren’t as receptive for obvious reasons lol) but had an open thing because you guys don’t believe in holding eachother back from exciting new experiences and adventures and that monogamy is about chaining the other person up and forcing them to miss out on life because you don’t trust them enough to come back to you and personally you would never want to hold a girl you care about back from experiencing everything she wants to in life and having amazing memories and experiences to look back on, etc etc

“and she just assumed a guy like me must have FBs”

Solipsism and hamster logic. “I’m attracted to him, so other girls MUST be attracted to him because I’m not attracted to unattractive guys”

““Nah, it makes me more attainable” line – she loved it and started laughing.”

lol good. I use this all the time.

“my only concern at this point was triggering her Provider algorithm when she found out what I do”

Remember that you’re not competition for her husband if you’re just a Lover so it’s okay for her to fuck you. But if you cross too far into Provider, then she has to choose BETWEEN you two and then it becomes an issue.

Consider lying about your job as a disqualifier. It sounds like you have some kind of subcomms or look/style that radiate a high-value job (don’t tell us what it is we don’t need to know), but you could always say something like “oh I’m a (low-value job), I used to do (high-value job) so no one believes me but I got tired of that lifestyle and quit a few years ago to just do whatever I want”, where it explains your subcomms but shows that no you’re not a provider.

“she kept asking why I hadn’t Found The One”

‘Cause she hasn’t “found the one” either and is looking for an explanation/rationalization for why she’s bored with her husband. Something like “I don’t know if there even IS such a thing, I just go with the flow and when I meet someone I have chemistry with I see where things go, I think life is too short to hold back and miss out on someone just because you’re waiting for The One to come along…so many people settle with people they think are The One but down the road it turns out they don’t fully give them everything they need…” etc etc

Notice the frame I’m setting and the way all these things I’m saying are leading things toward absolving her of responsibility for her actions and creating a “safe space” non-judgemental Eat Pray Love bubble. I’m not just spouting random bullshit, I’m very pro-actively laying the framework for her to cheat.

And you could be doing all this without touching her, while her friend listens to her music and lets you two talk about these things because you haven’t set off red flags with her.

“saying she looked 30 (probably unnecessary with the level of attraction I had but I was very smiling throughout – but she loved it and even told the HB7)”

lol there’s no reason to do it, I like feisty girls so I’ll give them shit even when we both know it’s on. On a shy/quiet girl that might be a nuke.

“But the HB7 was a major cockblock throughout. She was literally fighting me for the HB6’s attention. HB7 was playing music on her phone out loud (no earphones) and rocking out to it and every few seconds literally shoving the phone in HB6’s face saying “I love this song” or physically grabbing the HB6 and pulling her away from me to listen to the music, as the HB6 tried to turn back to me.”

She’s trying to get your girl away from you so her Buying Temperature can settle so she won’t “accidentally” fuck you. This is the same dynamic as when girls drag their friend away “to go to the bathroom” etc and then you find her again and she’s ice cold.

Her friend can sense her BT increasing out of control so she has to get her away from the source of that, because “Attraction is not a choice” and if she can’t get her away from it and that source isn’t fucking up and killing Attraction, she’s going to fuck that source because she’s biologically hardwired to fuck high-value guys…her Hypergamy doesn’t care about her wedding vows, her Hypergamy just cares that you’re high-value to her in that moment.

You can see this in that Leicester Square AMOG vid I link of Future PUA on YouTube where at the end the blonde girl drags the brunette away because their BTs are spiking too high out of control and the brunette looks back instinctively because her biology doesn’t WANT her to leave but the blonde’s temp isn’t spiked as high and she has just enough sense left to drag her away from the bright shiny lightbulb.

That’s why your girl ignored her the whole time, without actively cheating by lying about her husband/kids, she was hoping she would just disappear or that you wouldn’t notice she was saying shit so that she could keep getting the good feels off you and eventually fuck you (even though that makes no actual logistical sense, she just hopes it’ll “just happen” somehow…our job is to find ways to allow it to happen).

“It was very hard to have a conversation while being constantly interrupted like that.”

Again that’s why I stopped kino’ing my sets and started focusing on lasers, sexual topics, etc lol

“HB7 was literally SHOUTING at me that HB6 is married. SHOUTING that I had better know where I was going..I just smiled and teased her but a lot of the verbals they didn’t register – they probably saw that I was holding frame though.”

’cause she’s not getting anything out of any of this. If you hadn’t triggered her cockblock alarm you might be able to just occasionally include her in the conversation and that might be enough for her to let you and your girl do your thing, but now 1) she’s getting ignored by her friend which feels shitty, 2) she doesn’t want her friend to cheat (either for her own reasons or her friend has asked her to make sure she doesn’t cheat or she just knows her friend will regret it in the morning) but can’t seem to stop you, and 3) she’s not being included in the fun and experiencing the good feels and gina tingles so she BETTER at least be going in the right direction. She may have sensed that you guys were going in the wrong direction at that point too (could’ve seen a landmark she remembers).

This is also why a 3-set is often easier solo than a 2-set…in a 2-set, unless you can grab some random dude and throw him on the friend, engaging one friend means the other is stuck being ignored and left out (unless you game both and shoot for a 3-some or let them fight over you). Whereas in a 3-set the other two friends can talk to eachother while you talk to the 3rd girl.

“HB6 (I think) wanted to take a selfie with me”

If she did it’s probably because she’s realizing she might not be able to fuck you and at least then she has a memory of the high-value guy she met which is better than nothing.

“but HB7 got her phone out and wanted a pic of the two of them”

Probably knows it’s not a good idea for her friend to have pics of her with a dude on her phone.

“I just kept repeating “magic word, what’s the magic word??” at her until she finally (reluctantly) said “Please””

Perfect. Mystery Method compliance hoops. She sets a hoop but you don’t jump through it until you set one and she jumps through it first.

“perhaps by making up some excuse to go into their bar with them to “wait for my friends to call” and then pawn off the aggressive HB7 on the other friends and isolate the HB6”

She’s never gonna give you isolation at this point. You’ve set off way too many red flags for her. If you had disqualified yourself to the friend and done no kino etc, you might get some alone time with her as their “platonic male friend” (as far as the cockblock is concerned, but to your girl you’re still lasering and talking about sexual topics etc).

“I realised that we were actually walking *the wrong way*.”

lolol we’ve all done it.

“HB6 didn’t seem bothered at all..she looked quite happy to be getting more time with me”

Ya, she’ll have no problem with it. She knows the fun ends when she gets around her other friends.

“But HB7 went ballistic and turned the shit-test-o-meter up to 11 – again, pretty much shouting “It’s his fault, it’s his fault, he said he knew the way and we followed him””
“(and then stopped for a bit to shout again at me “She’s MARRIED WITH KIDS”).”

Ya, just way too many red flags at this point.

“at this point she was telling the HB7 – “Hey this guy’ll be really useful for you to know for your career – you should get his number” but HB7 wasn’t interested. I can’t quite parse this – I didn’t get the vibe she was trying to matchmake me with the HB7 (she obviously wanted me herself”

When a taken girl wants to fuck you but logistically can’t make it work (like she can’t get rid of her tattletale friends (sometimes they’re with a BFF who won’t tell on them)), she’ll often try to get her friends to fuck you so she can live vicariously through them. It’s the funniest thing. So it’s like her friend getting your number and maybe fucking you someday is the next best thing to HER getting to do that.

“more that she was saying it trying to make peace between me and her friend?”

Also a bit of this.

“Very shortly after this the two girls started walking a bit faster and sort of drifting away from me.”

ASD kicking in on your girl probably, as her friend helps it along. Probably whispering shit to her.

“there is no way I could have lost them UNLESS they took the wrong turning against my explicit instructions on how to get to their bar.”


“I don’t know if that was accidental or the HB7 being so desperate to cockblock me that she did it deliberately.”

Hard to say, could be either.

“I COULD have gone to their destination bar and either found them there or waited there for them because all their friends were there and they would definitely show. But I figured that would look uber-desperate/stalkerish especially after telling them I was meeting my friends elsewhere, so I just let it go.”

Someone’ll probably chew you out for this lol

“the only thing I could have done better was to handle the cockblock better, but I’m not sure how – I’ve never had such aggressive cockblocking done to me, and combined with the HB6 being so into me, it was unprecedented”

That’s why you hit the field and push your sets. πŸ˜‰ No kino, disqualify yourself to the friend, befriend and disarm the friend.

“Came home exhausted but in a great mood – I love the vibe on Saturday nights and going out and meeting people – even solo I’m getting comfortable with this.”

That’s part of why you’re getting pAImAI. Really look around at other guys who are at bars solo and look how uncomfortable and scared they look. Like children lost in a busy subway station.

“she was just about to get into her Uber so I only had about 20 seconds but fantastic subcomms cos I was still in a good mood from the two-set and pushing boundaries. I only said 6 words “You look like you’re lost in thought” and held EC and she just blew right open and laughed and responded with three-four sentences about how she was thinking but she was feeling the breeze on her face or whatever..”

Props. Most guys would make the excuse not to open. But like Tyler says in the infield where he pulls a girl OUT of her cab “Is this a high-success approach? Is it good odds that this is going to happen? No…so why do I do it? Because why fucking not?” lol

@Sentient @Culum Struan
“see my field report link, and Yareally’s comment to me”

Ya same shit as in that FR.

“10:30 on Saturday… SEE? Not 2AM drunk time… could’ve been 8:30 just as well… ”

The rhythm of the night “not at 10:30” thing is generally for once they’re IN a venue. On the street like these two, anything goes. Leaving after you first walk inside Disneyland and see all the rides waiting for you, and being sidetracked walking TO Disneyland are very different things lol

“And you are not lying to her, you are ignoring her question and reframing.”

Tell them you work in a baby-grinding factory lol They don’t actually want to know what you do for a living, or care, they’re just trying to seek rapport/comfort with you and they have game like AFC chodes do so they ask boring interview questions as their default.

“Hey man her phone is out GRAB that number… You could’ve been boning her this week…”

The friend would probably cockblock that at that point, unfortunately. Either way remember to get her to save your name as a girl’s name if you DO try to close a taken chick.

“she wanted your cock…”

Not super on-board with this. She might’ve wanted it at the start, but at this point she hates his ass. And ya hate = emotional reaction = Attraction technically but it’s too messy a situation to turn around fast enough to do anything with it. The depth he dug that hole, he’d need to spend a good chunk of time engaging the pissed off chick to turn her around.

If he had befriended her and not set off red flags he could probably make the switch without much problem, but at this point he’s toast.

“You just needed to close space, get your hands around her waist… say ANYTHING with some feeling and emotion –”

Again this looks and feels great. And you might pull off a quick makeout (with the friend SCREAMING in your guys’ ear trying to push you off of her etc), but if the goal is an actual lay, drop the kino completely and be more subtle with the number close (“oh ya my wife (laser her and wink at her so she knows you don’t have one and it’s just to disarm her friend) would like your style, you should take her shopping sometime, put her number in your phone her name is Amy (wink)”) etc and then shoot for meeting up with her later that night (VS the next day when she’s more likely to have ASD).

“NLP style stuff “it feels good…. doesn’t it [nodding]… the caress on your face and neck [laser]” and make out. Then hop in the uber with her, or LEAD her to the next place with boyfriend kino. I would bet $10 grand she would have made out with you right on the spot…. because it’s happened bunches of times…”

For sure she would have made out. But again, it would’ve been with the friend SCREAMING in their ear and shoving them apart etc having NONE of it, and probably not letting you get in the uber.

The goal isn’t to just get a makeout, unless you just want that reference experience and are happy with that much. If the goal is to actually get the lay, ditch the kino, she was MORE than attracted enough for him to not need it, and it wouldn’t set off so many flags with the friend.

This is that dogmatic stuff, guys stick to like “you have to do this, in every single set” and it’s like no you don’t, you gotta calibrate, sometimes it’s better to leave some stuff out or replace it with other stuff to make the final goal easier to get to.

I can be talking to a 21yo beside me at the bar and blasting her with lasers and sexual conversation and getting big attraction and her friends will ignore us. But the second I throw an arm around her, the girlfriends and the orbiters will all come over to fuck it up lol

If you have THAT much attraction, you don’t need the kino. She’s not like “oh man I only want to fuck him 99.9999% so I won’t do it, but now that he’s touched my lower back I want to fuck him 100% so NOW it’s on!!” lol

“Do yourself a huge favor… GO OUT TONIGHT while all this is fresh and push yourself late on Sunday night…”

Agreed. Sunday is also a lot of industry hotties usually (each city is different but it’s either Sun Mon or Tues, ask some bartenders where to go tonight and they’ll tell you). Ride the momentum. You’ll either have an epic night or get fully ass-raped by the universe so you don’t get too cocky lol One of the two.

“seriously a ton of tattoos, especially faces you don’t recognize, are for dead friends and family. If you get an uptempo answer no biggie, but you will often get a really sudden serious soft sad response… DOWNER… IF you are not prepared to handle it, it may tank your set.. ”

lol ya I was gonna mention this earlier but you brought it up here. I avoid asking about tattoos for this reason. Ran into it being a downer too often so I save that for after sex when we’re cuddling and I want to build more rapport/comfort so she feels special and doesn’t get Buyer’s Remorse.

“However you need to realize that grief is a strong emotion, and strong emotions are good, and strong emotions with you as the trigger are great… so go along with it. Emote.”

Cuddled up in bed, or if you have an hour or two for the set (to share your own griefy shit and then pull the mood back into happy fun stuff) then ya, but if he’s only got a 20 minute walk to the bar where her friends are I’d say just skip the tattoo meaning stuff lol

on September 18, 2016 at 8:04 am
Original Link

“This was a single set 40YO waiting on a Uber, no friends.”

Ooops, skipped the quoted paragraph and didn’t realize you were talking about that second set. Ya, that one was grope-city lol

The Best Of The Rational Male – Year 5

Original Link

via Rational Male

on September 6th, 2016 at 2:40 pm
Original Link

“Especially with Ya Really trying to convince the older men around here that having an alpha frame is not enough to keep an under age 25 girl HB 7+ loyal with all that exposure she has had to social media- FB,twitter,Linked-in,Tinder etc.”

“Monogamy” in 2016:

She keeps her orbiters because she “can’t delete Facebook that’s how I keep in touch with my family!!” while the guy gives up his options. SIGN ME UP!! lol

on September 6th, 2016 at 9:29 pm
Original Link

“YaReally—-chime in here….I think the point is still not setting in.”

lol you’re on your own with him. I’ve already wasted enough time going down the SJF rabbit hole for one lifetime.

But in general you don’t have to use stuff like Facebook, Twitter, Tinder, Instagram etc, but it helps to know what they are and the basics of what they’re for and they’re great for networking and arranging events and shit if you’re running social circle game (which I believe walawala does).

Like it’s a lot easier to pick up a hot bartender when you understand when her shift probably starts/ends, what kind of guys she hangs with, what sort of relationship she probably has with the other staff and customers because of the dynamics in her industry, what level of discreetness to use VS a girl in another line of work, what sort of time is optimal for a Day2 with her (probably not gonna get her out on a Friday night lol), being able to share/tell stories about idiot drunk customers and stuff that she’ll get because that’s her world.

A lot of pickup is about relating to people and making them feel like they can relate to you…just like selling things, you’re more likely to make the sale if you and the customer both have a sports interest in common and shoot the shit about the big game last night bonding over it and relating to eachother.

So when you can tease a girl about being on Tinder and comment on the hordes of orbiters you know she must have on Instagram it shows that even though you’re 10+ years older than her, you still “get” her world.

’cause a guy who IS regularly banging girls her age is just GOING to know about some of that stuff. He might not use it himself (I don’t), but like, if you spend a lot of time around hot young chicks, you’re going to know what Snapchat from just being around their culture lol

So a guy who’s like “what’s a Snapchat?”, it’s not a nuke or anything (I play up the confused old man who thinks their trends are retarded all the time, but I’m charismatic and sparking Attraction so I can do it), but it DOES show that you’re proooobably not a guy who spends much time around hot young girls which subcomms low social value and negative preselection that you’ll have to overcome by making yourself relatable in some other way. Plus less chance of triggering “my DAD always asks what Snapchat is TOO ew gross it’ll be like banging my dad” vibes lol Makes them view you as younger too.

“Your premise is that if I want to interact with the younger crowd”

lol no his premise is that if you want to FUCK the younger crowd, and actually put your penis inside their vaginas and thrust away. Not “interact” with them. Walawala is FUCKING young hotties, you are sitting on a couch listening to them talk about school. You don’t have to know anything about social media, that’s fine, it just means that your advice on gaming girls should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

“She can’t actually utilize the bulk of these options”

I probably can’t spend $5 billion dollars in a day, I could spend let’s say $1000 in a day. But my perspective on money and my purchasing decisions while having $5 billion dollars in my bank account even if I’m only spending $1000 of it will be very different than someone with only $1000 dollars to spend in total.

“but what I am saying is that most of these options are not real.”

Girls’ hindbrains don’t understand that.

“Names on a screen type options.”

James Franco was a name on a screen and contacted a random nobody girl. Stories like that tell girls “I may have a path to getting high-value men through these names on a screen option”. That’s all their hindbrain cares about.

“The other thing is that there are a million dudes on social media with ZERO game skills.”

They don’t know that until they interact with them and those guys fail shit-tests and fuck the vibe up. YOU know it, *I* know it, but their hindbrain doesn’t know it until it takes enough bad beats.

“White Knighting Beta Nice Guys. They are options. Jobless, ambitionless, lifeless scrubs….options.”

All of those guys look like high-value options to her hindbrain when they put up a pic of them in front of an expensive car and flexing their 6-pack and talking about how much ambition they have for life. She has to interact with them to find out that that car was their parents’, the 6-pack was photoshopped, and that they have no job and just spend their day laying on a couch watching TV instead of being ambitious.

They don’t put up profiles saying “hi, I have no job or ambition or life, I’m a scrub, date me!” Each of those highlight reel false advertising profiles is a chance to escape a boring life living on a budget in a little dumpy house with an old beat up car stressing over bills with Joe the plumber they married who she’s been fighting with lately as her newly divorced BFF tells her about all the exciting guys she’s meeting on Tinder (because she’s LYING to her to make herself sound attractive still lol)

“Question: Is it even possible to short circuit all of the tech chasing bullshit they engage in?”

Can I convince you to never look at or go near your rose bushes (or hedges or whatever lol) again? Maybe, but I would need a pretty compelling argument when all you see to them is upside and you’ve been engaging with them your whole life.

Could I convince you to never work out again? Or can I convince you to never eat another vegetable or steak ever again? All you can eat now is oatmeal for the rest of your life. I don’t have any real reason for it except that I don’t want you to do it even though all your friends eat that stuff and have you over for dinner and ask you why you don’t eat that stuff etc

That’s the thing of it. WE know social media is ultimately bad for people and bad for them and bad for the LTRs they’ll want to try to make work. But all THEY see is the upside of this stuff, because it IS upside for them, it optimizes their hindbrain’s ability to find the best survival/replication candidate.

How much value would I have to have to you for you to give up working out and eating meat and going near your rose bushes to have me in your life?

“I’m still cornering women and interrogating them about their social media habits and the likelihood that they can be convinced to put down their devices. It is still very grim looking.”

No surprise lol Like I say, the field reveals all.

“Addiction is never attractive imo.”

It’s not. But imagine you’re in a world where everyone has blonde hair. But you like black hair. 99.99999% of women all have blonde hair…there might be a couple women here and there in some backwoods town that you’ll never visit with black hair, but all you see around you is blonde hair.

As a guy who’s already married with kids and settled down and out of the game, you see that situation and go “well just don’t get into a relationship with any of those blondes then, blonde hair just isn’t attractive imo”

But the single guys around her who are looking to get to where you are, with a successful LTR and kids, can’t ALL get the 0.00001% of women that have black hair. They HAVE to deal with the blonde hair. By advising they just don’t settle with a blonde, you’re saying “don’t EVER settle with ANYONE, don’t ever reproduce”. That’s not an acceptable answer lol

How many girls have you run into in your quizzing who don’t use ANY social media at all? ANY?

“The she asked ” why is life so hard, so boring, so sad. so meaningless?”. Shit.”

Welcome to 2016. lol This is what we’re working with on a grand scale.

“She said guys were extra boring and very random”

“Extra boring” means she’s surrounded by chodes and AFCs and guys with shitty game that supplicate to her and bore her (aka not PUAs that give her the full range of emotions). “very random” means the alpha guys she DOES like just pump n dump her and don’t call her back or bang other girls and don’t want to commit etc. Because she’s not dating/fucking the 80%, she’s dating/fucking the 20% (now the 10%) and those guys have access to the 90% so why would they settle for one girl, especially when she’s miserable inside and looking for someone to fill the hole in her soul for her?

“The complaint was that she is not finding or feeling ” Love ” or ‘ Loved “. I asked her to describe what she would have to feel to feel love, and she could not adequately put it into succinct wording ( surprise!! ).”

lol All she knows about love is what she’s seen in movies or been socially conditioned to think about how important it is. Like I say, laser eye-contact is extra killer now because a girl like her may LITERALLY have never had a guy hold deep sexual eye-contact with her in her LIFE. She’s seen it in Twilight and shit and it looks amazing but she’s never met a guy who can actually DO it because she’s surrounded by chodes. And when she’s in public everyone is on their phones not interacting. In the old days people had to engage the people around them or at least be looking around and guys weren’t as socially crippled as a whole and she probably experienced lasers a few times. But now she could make it to adulthood without ever experiencing it.

“She wanted to know about physical contact outside of the bedroom,”

This is an interesting one that I’m noticing keeps coming up. The last few girls I’ve been with have been shocked at how I’m all about the PDAs. The guys they dated before me would rarely touch them in public or lead them or anything and they wanted it bad but the guys were uncomfortable.

’cause we have a society of guys uncomfortable with their sexual urges and nature, scared to be “too controlling” and leading and guiding her by the small of the back and scared to be “too possessive” throwing their arm around her and scared to treat her like an ojbect/possession they “own” etc etc Just shitty social conditioning.

“and how much conversation I engaged in with my wife and if I found peace and satisfaction.”

lol ’cause the chodes will listen to her hoping to fuck her but they’re the “extra boring” ones she was talking about so who cares, and the alphas she actually WANTS don’t give a shit what she says, which is why she wants them, but again they don’t commit to her or take her seriously etc

“Now fellas, I SWEAR that I was not hitting on her what so ever.”

Hashtag humblebrag lol But seriously, you’re giving her the full range of emotions hitting her to her core, you’re making good eye-contact (I assume), you have charisma, you have preselection having a wife, you’re teaching her about the world like her daddy never did because her single mom kicked him out, you’re building deep comfort/rapport with her, you’re engaging her with 100% zero outcome dependence completely giving value instead of looking to take value or take anything from her…

I mean, what do you EXPECT to happen lol

“She said that the vibe was something that she had been looking for in guys.”

I can guarantee it’ll involve eye-contact.

“The eye contact”

Yup lol

“and the touch ( I do not recall ever touching her. I gotta see the store security tape )”

You probably didn’t and she just fantasized it, or it was just such a casual thing you didn’t think anything of it. But to her it would have been something that NO OTHER GUY IN HER LIFE would have the balls to do probably.

“Amazingly, she says that she longs for touches from a man engaging her in interesting conversation outside of the bedroom.”

TOO BAD SHE’S PROBABLY BORING AS FUCK TO TALK TO lol That’s always the funny part to me. Girls want deep conversation but then they know like surface level shit at best and get lost when you go over their heads. Like okay you’re having fun but I’m just talking to a child here lol

“She said that this was causing her very high levels of frustration with men in general. When guys try to talk with her, she just starts to tune them out a bit until they say something worth listening to.”

Because guys don’t understand how to spark Attraction. They try to go right for rapport/comfort without getting A2. That’s why Julien with his crazy offensive shit and Jeffy’s Bill Cosby roofie your drink opener force her to pay attention, because they’re making an emotional impact on her.

“So I said ” I like your shoes ” and she replied ” See!! That’s the stuff I’m talking about. Forget my shoes!!! Lmao!!!”.”

lol this goes back to the social media thing walawala was saying…this shows that you understand her world and makes you relatable to her. Like she instantly knows you’re a guy who “gets it” and gets her world so you become more of a prospect to her.

“” ALL of my stuff?”. Yup, I answered. ” I’d seriously consider that if I could be happy, but it’s a lot to ask “. I’ll take that as another ” no “.”

lol This girl just went out of her way to ask you about love and if you could offer the chance to have it to her she’d still need a 100% guarantee that she’ll be happy 24/7 for the rest of her life to consider your “a lot to ask” deal fair.

Wanna slip a ring and your finances and custody of your kids on her finger and try walking THAT tightrope for the next 40 years? lol

“So the social media conversations are ongoing, but It still looks like YaReally is going to wind up being correct.”

Now how could I know this stuff……….lol Like I say, all this shit is out there for anyone to go see for themselves.

“Buuuutttt…. there’s more to this than just orbiters and dudes on a screen.”

Oh god, ya, there’s like a million little factors involved in what’s going on. I’m just bringing up the most obvious blatant part of the shift…I mean look at the uphill battle I’ve had in just getting THIS reality to be accepted around here lol no reason to go into deeper more subtle issues going on.

“So I will continue talking to chicks, but I’m going to concentrate on the 8’s and 9’s in the age group YaReally is addressing. I wanna see if I hear a pattern of some sort, and whether I hear the same old stories over and over.”

I’m glad you’re out there testing this stuff instead of just keyboard jockey theorizing. But I weep for how your soul is going to weep for society by the end of this experiment lol You were such a bright-eyed bushy tailed Natural a year ago. πŸ™‚

“Lol. But brah, I have been hearing a lot of ” I can get my own/don’t need no man controlling me ” rhetoric before. I got a deeper convo and she was aware that I wasn’t trying to peel her out of those ridiculously tight, ripped jeans she was wearing.”

lol good luck convincing Sentient that you’re not a social retard imagining things that aren’t there according to his theories.

“Have you ever taken a girls phone and put it in your pocket? Do you know you can do this?”

Have you ever kept a 2016 <25yo 8+/10s phone in your pocket for 40 years?

"a pet peeve notation that old married guys are not infield as recognized by the bar/nightclub crowd as being infield"

Some of them are. Those guys come to the same conclusions we do. Some of them are not. Those guys argue what happens infield because they aren't infield. Just because Elon built the Tesla doesn't mean that I pretty much built it too.

Also interacting with girls with no intent to fuck them or keep them around long-term VS intent to fuck them or keep them around long-term can alter the interaction dynamics and that needs to be accounted for.

"Dude….asking them about social media implies a lack of knowledge…You’re already showing your age."

lol he's not trying to fuck them don't worry. You might've missed his original posts about his experiment but he's not trying to seduce them, he's trying to do some research into what I've been saying about how social media has been a normalized part of a girl's world. Like he WANTS them to teach him about it.

"My point is you have to KNOW this stuff…just “get it”… You have to demonstrate a mastery of the technology."

Well, you technically don't as Blax has just shown. It's just that it helps. Blax found another way to make himself relatable to the girl and demonstrated enough value through his confidence, eye-contact, voice tonality, no outcome dependence, etc He wasn't approaching her as the dad jeans guy.

"But… you have to be across this stuff. You have to be plugged into popular culture because they are."

Right, the 50 Shades of Grey thing is a good example. You can sexualize in OTHER ways, obviously. But it's a really easy "in" to being relatable to her and her world if you can drop a reference to something like that, the same way it's easier to get a how bartender if you pitch your Day2 for a Tuesday late at night because you know she probably won't work that night and she's going to be on a night schedule, not going for coffee at noon with you.

It's not mandatory, but it can help.

"I don’t get this hate on so many older guys have for social media."

I get the hate because I hate it too lol But I also love it for the good parts of it, like being able to stay connected with my friends and shit easier.

My point in bringing it up at all is just that guys learning game today need to understand how and why these things change society. I'm not talking about like, the effect Tesla cars have on girls or the effect being able to order products online instead of going to a store to buy them has on girls, because those things don't really cause any significant changes. But giving a girl Instagram and Tinder from age 16, that CHANGES some shit. Guys need to be aware of those changes so they can adapt their game (like at the end of the last comment section (Losing My Religion) where I get into how I've had to adapt/change my text game the last couple years).

"@Rollo @Sentient, I’ve seen it. Alpha is a state of mind Corey appears to have lost."

Like most Naturals, Corey still had the Blue Pill socially conditioned ending as his goal. All the old guys here are psyched for him though and expect it to work out, right? The kid was the most Alpha kid in the universe at one point, so he should have no problem!

"I’m not feeling the massive orbiter fear thing."

You're not trying to fuck them and keep them around for 40 years. πŸ™‚ You listened to that girl's sob story and it tugged on your heart strings and for a second or two she may have even convinced you that if you could really truly give her the things she said she wanted, she'd give up her social media forever for a chance at happiness.

But the reality is once the NRE wears off she'll dust off her accounts. There's a reason those social media sites don't actually DELETE your data, they just deactivate it so you can reactivate it later. They know how human psychology works.

"I’m sure if I’d invited her for coffee she would’ve went. But her flirting on a 1 to 10 scale was a 4. Lol."

Remember that thing about other problems/changes in society going on? The more and more commonplace situation of young girls being socially awkward and not knowing how to flirt or interact with men well anymore is one of em lol Some of the things I've seen girls do that they think are "sexy" or will attract men that make me shake my head…where do I even START the list lol

on September 7th, 2016 at 10:17 am
Original Link

Thanks for all the shoutouts btw Just happy to have helped other guys the way PUAs selflessly helped me (directly or indirectly) back in the day. Just payin that shit forward.

“All of a sudden my page blows up and I’m getting all kinds of likes and comments. Pretty fucking cool.”

Now imagine literally ANYTHING you post, no matter how stupid or meaningless, gets a barrage of positive validation like that, from hot girls too. You take a pic of your toothpaste tube saying “time to go shopping!” and get 50 Likes and a dozen girls (with profile pics that make them look like 10s) saying “OMG YOU’RE SO FUNNY LOLOL” and guys saying “BRO UR HILARIOUS! WE GOTTA GRAB BEERS SOMETIME MAN!” just making you think you’re the specialist special that ever specialed and you’re like “I wasn’t even trying to be funny!! I don’t even know what they think is funny in that, wow I must be a comic genius!!”

Pre-social-media no one would have given a shit, your mom would say “ok I’ll pick some up on my way home from work, anything else you need?” But now you’ve had the validation above multiple times a day since you were 16. What would your internal beliefs about yourself and scarcity/abundance mindsets look like?

“I recently watched the LOL episode of Californication. Where Hank doesn’t know shit about lingo like “LOL” and he busts this girl’s ass for saying it. Just completely rips her a new one. Of course they end up banging later after he recalibrates from being an over-the-top asshole without provocation or play from her.”

lolol I love that episode.

@walawala give Californication a watch if you haven’t yet, it’s a good example of being an older dude who knows the bare minimum about current trends and just makes fun of them instead of embracing them, and the general frame that helps pull that off (“you’re just an analog guy in a digital world, aren’t you”). Hank is a great “cool older man” character to model as you age.

These are cool older men, both of these actors are almost 50 in real life so keep that in mind when you watch the show:

Compare that to a lot of guys their age and it’s not even about the looks but about the ENERGY. These guys walk talk move and act like they’re still young mentally. Like two mid-20yo’s could have that same conversation and it would seem normal. They’re still “old” and “out of touch” in that they make fun of younger chicks and their silly shit, but their characters at least understand their world which makes them relatable.

“The real shit always goes down in-person, naturally. But at least a couple times I’ve used some racy and funny memes to prime the pump. It can plant a seed to get them thinking of you in a sexual way. It’s fun, too.”

Ya, I’ll send relationship/sex related ones, like a chick sent me this:

So I sent it to other girls. It’s funny and relatable (and shows that I “get it” VS a guy who’s never had a relationship or been around women and wouldn’t understand some of this humor, so it subtly shows some preselection and understanding HER side of relationships) and subcomms that I’m just looking for a casual thing because I wouldn’t link something making fun of LTRs if I wanted one, etc etc All without having to text a word.

I do a lot of “this is you” texts too, where I’ll throw a funny/sexual/crazy-girl meme at them that relates to an in-joke we have about something she does to spike her temp.

It’s just another way of communicating. It’s not NECESSARY/MANDATORY, but it can help set a frame or encourage/discourage certain behaviors or tease etc

“At some point you’re just shooting yourself in the foot, since nothing real can happen online.”

This. And remember other guys are trying this same shit too. When you text her, her phone has 10 other texts to look at and/or respond to. Meet in person, don’t give the milk away for free, you don’t get anything out of that text chat but she does.

“Like in my head I think, “Oh, wow. Well I guess I could get with a girl like that if I wanted to, if the circumstances were different. I’m never going to actually meet her or anything, but I bet if I did, we’d be banging like wild animals right now.””

See that’s how GUYS think. But what I’m trying to get across to Blaximus and crew is that GIRLS don’t think logically like that. You think that because you KNOW a girl isn’t going to fly you to where she is and make you the center of her world because that’s never fucking happened in your life to any guy you know lol But a GIRL gets that same validation barrage you got, but HER hindbrain thinks “Oh, wow. I guess I could get a guy like that! He’s only in Italy and he looks rich omg he would fly me to Italy to meet him and take me to some fancy dinner and we’d look up at the stars and omg could I LIVE in Italy?? I’ve always wanted to omg I could go to all the little shops and stuff!! Omg I could take so many pics for my instagram! My boring hubby is struggling to pay the bills and this guy is offering me a free flight to Italy to meet him, and he says we don’t even have to DO anything so that’s not cheating right??” etc etc

Because that’s the world of a hot girl in our globally-connected tech age. She KNOWS friends with Sugar Daddys and who’ve been on flights paid for by guys or had guys fly to see them or they have a long distance relationship across the world with some handsome dude in Italy even though they have an “at home boyfriend” here etc and guys are thirsty enough to offer all that shit and tell them whatever they want to hear and spend money to make meeting up happen.

We can’t relate to that because we’re used to having to chase, but girls are used to being chased, so they don’t view those guys validating them as impossible faraway people they’ll never meet up with…they view them as potential options.

“Then in Real Life, eye contact, alternate funny/serious, and mostInterestingMan stuff. I get so many comments about eye contact and I’m pretty ugly seriously. Supposedly my eyes sparkle when I’m funny and laugh and they dig that, but I’m pretty sure it’s all feelz and attraction generated on their side. They tell me most men (AFCs) they meet from these dating sites don’t make eye contact and can’t converse…”

Yup. Been told the same. ’cause guys are becoming more socially retarded and aren’t being taught to look people in the eye (that’s eye-raping objectifying with women and that’s agressive/threatening with men, instead of being taught “look that’s just being CONFIDENT, it’s a GOOD THING, don’t stare down the crackhead hobo but look your boss in the eye when you talk to him about the project you’re working on”). It’s just look down at your phone screen to text.

The funny thing with laser eye-contact is that when you do it properly (bedroom eye-contact, hold it, cut space, etc) it makes you fully understand why looks don’t matter. Because your eyes take over her RAS, everything else fades to black for her when you lock eyes in that way. She’s not looking at your lack of 6-pack or your facial features or your bald spot or how expensive your shoes are or whether you have a nice watch or whether your belt matches your shoes, she’s just locked onto your eyes and whatever you’re expressing through them.

If you’re going to play passive game where you stand around like James Bond and wait for her to approach you, then she’ll look at all that stuff. But if you’re being PRO-ACTIVE like you SHOULD be, and getting up in her space giving her emotional impact and lasering, none of that other shit matters to her. All she sees is the “twinkle in your eye”.

But you have to DO it and experience it to really GET what I’m describing when you take over her RAS.

“In other words… demonstrations of Alpha behavior…. You can add “guys scared to say No” to the list…”


“This is the core issue, not that the Nature Of Women(c.2016) is anything new…”

No one has ever said the Nature of Women has changed. That’s your misunderstanding of what I’ve been saying.

“You’ve come up with an arbitrary 40 year test…”

40 years is a fine test. If you’re telling guys to do monoLTRs and/or legally marry and/or have kids, then that relationship has to last from whenever it starts to the end of their lives. I use 40 to emphasize that we’re not talking about a little 3 year relationship here. We’re talking about keeping them LOOOOONG past the NRE stage where there have been plenty of ups and downs and weak moments and boredom etc, because that’s what guys are looking to do to have kids.

“I’ve suggested as long as the guy has hand, which is backed by all of game/attraction research….”

Sure. But how is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

“Have hand, never lose it… ”

How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

“Have hand, never lose it relationship Maxim 1…”

How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

“yeah the license is good forever, but in order to actually fly and use it you need to pass a bienniel flight review, and have an active log book… You need to demonstrate you maintain the skillz you’ve learned, by having those skillz.”

How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

“Guys always think they can “relax” and veg out… foolish thinking… the only thing more foolish than thinking you can do so in a LTR is thinking you can do so outside of a LTR. The work will always need to be done.”

How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

I don’t get why you can’t just admit that your advice is “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” lol When that’s very clearly what your advice is. And it’s fine advice, I agree, if you can be alpha 24/7 forever bro, you’ve got a good shot at staying at the top of her Hypergamy and making out alright.

But for the other 99.9999% of men out there who aren’t super alpha badasses like you, it’s probably good for them to have a more realistic understanding of “you know what, there will probably be rough patches in my life where I’m NOT alpha 24/7, I might get sick, I might lose my job, my parents might die in a plane crash, I might just get tired and need a break to relax or might not achieve my dream job, hell SHE might change and get fat or bitchy and become someone I don’t like being around and that might affect how alpha I am, our kids might be born with disabilities and shit that stress me out working an extra job to pay for it, there MIGHT be points somewhere in the next 40+ years where I’m NOT “alpha 24/7 forever bro”

…and since the way to keep her attracted is to have hand and the way to have hand is to “be alpha 24/7 forever bro”, and I don’t know for sure that I’m capable of that because I’m not Sentient the super badass, and as YaReally has informed me there will be hundreds of other guys putting on the front that they ARE alpha 24/7 bro on their social media etc gunning for her till she’s 35 maybe even longer, MAAAAAAAYBE it’s not the smartest idea to legally tie myself to a contract that says “be alpha 24/7 forever bro or she gets your money, kids and the house””

Common sense.

The way to not fall in the spike pit is to just stay balanced on the wooden stilts…but I don’t think I’m going to sign a legal contract that says I’ll stay balanced up there for 40+ years while a dozen termites are crawling on the stilts or else I’ll lose everything. But hey, maybe I’m just CRAZY not wanting to take risks like that and wanting to look for alternative paths, like being on a metal platform instead of wooden stilts.

“Now there is one cheat… instead of practicing an Alpha veneer, a mask, and expending all the effort of trying to keep same from slipping…”

Fake it till you make it doesn’t work!! It’s all a facade!! The girl will see the real you one day under all the lieeeeessss!! Anything else from Jezebel you’d like to quote? lol

“embrace the pursuit of a dynamic, passionate and authentic life and the Platinum Rule. The irreducible Alpha Triad and an eternal MPO in one package. Supra Game level unlocked…”

The step by step of how to do your always vague “be dynamic, passionate and authentic” is just the same steps PUA lays out for how to do that lol I don’t get why you’re trying to relabel and coin your own Sentient Catch-Phrase (TM) term for stuff that’s already got names and labels like it’s some new technique. Same shit as Simple Pickup selling “being in state” as “god mode” and Krauser selling “AF/BB” as “r/K selection”.

It’s just silly and muddies the knowledge-base for newbies who are like “Mystery told me to be expressive and emote, which SOUNDS like being passionate and dynamic, but Sentient’s making it sound like Mystery’s way is just some Alpha veneer mask so I should just be passionate and dynamic like he says but how are those different from emoting and being expressive, he never really describes any step by step just this vague reference to his magic technique that’s somehow not the same as what I’d learn in PUA so WAT DO????” lol

on September 7th, 2016 at 2:07 pm
Original Link

@Sun Wukong
“Marriage runs directly counter to this strategy for men, which is why I’m puzzled by the belief that young guys should or even can have a marriage these days. Is it just ego investment on the part of already married guys? I mean, if we’re about helping guys set an internal MPO but then we advise them in to a strategically stupid decision given current circumstances, are we really helping?”

Read the comment section (this isn’t a red pill subreddit this is just a general sample of people in /r/news/) for some reality checks too:

“I had a friend who was putting her ex through the wringer. Took the house, took his dog, used his kids against him. Dude got a 2nd job bartending because he couldn’t afford to live on what he was now making. She found out one night when we were out drinking, she sued him for more child support. She did this again when he was picking up extra shifts and hiding it. Right then I realized I shouldn’t ever marry and have kids.”

“The divorce echo chamber is a powerful thing. Everyone telling her she is entitled to his money, siding with her in every disagreement, making him into the villain. Suddenly different parenting approaches became chasms to argue over. It was pretty weird seeing how it devolved into the mess it was.”

“I’m really sad that I’m getting to the age now where most singles are divorced single moms. A lot of them really are just dogshit people; the “you’re right, he’s wrong about everything” back patting and ego reinforcement they go through during the divorce process seems to really warp their ideas about how to treat others and what the world does/does not owe them. I’ve gone on a few dates/Tinder setups where it became immediately obvious to me why she was divorced and why I wanted no further part of it.”

“that’s what kills me. I’m scared to put my livelihood on the line on the off chance that I get a psycho that takes everything I’ve built up for myself. the thought of going back to being basically homeless terrifies me, and there’s a good chance that happens if you go through a nasty divorce.”

“Yeah, I completely agree. The older I get, the more I just don’t want to date ever, get married, have kids. It just seems so futile now. I’m so lucky I never got any of my ex girlfriend’s pregnant.”

“Are you still friends?” “No, I was a dissenting opinion in how she was treating her ex which made us argue a bunch, and then she got all caught up in being “A single working mom with a deadbeat ex, and woe-is-me.” type person so I skated.”

“My mom left my dad after 29 years of marriage. Their divorce took 2.5 years from the time of filing to the time of finalization and cost them more than 200k in legal fees (combined). Apparently, after decades of marriage, there is significantly more “shit” to go through. Not to mention that, in hindsight, we are all fairly certain their lawyers were colluding to drag it out to continue billing hours since my dad had a decent chunk of money in the bank. Not sure how much longer, if any, the 70 year old was married, but the hypothetical divorce, if comparing to my parents, sounds comparable to prison.”

“I could go on for hours about how petty shit got over the dumbest stuff. My dad did say once it was all done, he wished he had just given her whatever she wanted on day one and saved the 200k in legal fees he had to pick up. He probably would have had more money at the end of the day.”

Hell of a dice roll.

And of course all of this is met with the usual incredibly nurturing sympathy that Feminism has helped enhance these days:

“I’m a female, and I can’t even look at myself in the mirror without all the lights on. It’s way too spoopy to view a female in a dimly lit room. We’re so sneaky and conniving… we could be plotting anything! Know why we all go to the bathroom at the same time? It’s so that we can keep an eye on the others when we’re at our most vulnerable, so that they can’t pull any fast ones on us.”

“Which is precisely why I’ve never said “be Alpha 24/7 bro” and instead have said pursue the Platinum Rule and move beyond game qua game into a dynamic, passionate and authentic life… ”

For how long? Exactly.

“Faking it is the biggest cause of game failure… the girl will see the real you one day… and what you feel they feel… Tell the paper alpha guys how far faking it will get them… Now Game as mimicry of alpha behavior does work, it just won’t work over an extended period.”

lol ok thanks for letting us know your view of game so we can fully discount it. I didn’t realize someone posting here would be spouting Jezzie points about how game is just faking it forever.

“I think this is why you are so concerned with catching a cold or dealing with some adversity in life perhaps?”

It’s because my head isn’t up my ass and I’ve seen a shitload of captain alpha Corey Worthington Naturals get cheating on, dumped, divorce-raped, etc even though they were “DPA”. I account for the realities of life.

“when you become DPA these episodes are part of the roller coaster of life, that emotional balance that women crave and they love coming to your side and banding together”

Feel-good nonsense fluff. A bunch of the guys above sharing divorce rape stories were probably DPA at some point but slipped up or naturally devolved over time. You still haven’t answered how your advice ISN’T just “be alpha 24/7 forever bro”. It’s hilarious that you can keep saying the exact same thing 500 ways under the sun but refuse to simply say the actual words that I’m summing your position up as because they show how dumb your advice is.

“why do you think so many couples TRY and inject things like make a big move or have a baby to spark their relationship?”

Because they’re bored in their LTR as the NRE wears off.

“And you keep keep keep bleating on about marriage when to a person not a single guy here has advocated getting married for it’s own sake. ever. Not once. Bizarre.”

Tell it to Big Al and comb through the last bunch of discussions on the subject. Plenty of guys are sticking to the “but if you find a special unicorn, and you’re DPA, it’ll be fine”. Same deal with monogamy. The whole point of my original post was that women aren’t offering monogamy if they have social media and orbiters, and they all come with that now, so men shouldn’t be offering monogamy.

“Are your parents divorced?”

Nope, the opposite. Very happily married. But I understand how rare that is with what we’re working with in 2016.

“and for the record on the Nature of Women… changed since (pick a date) 1000 BC? 100 AD? 900 AD? 1800 AD? [insert your own date] or not?”

How many times do I have to repeat that no one has ever said the Nature of Women has changed? I literally said it in my last post in THIS thread that you’re replying to. Do you have a learning disability? Society and the influences on women have changed, just like it’s no longer cool to wear disco pants so you’re probably not wearing disco pants to your next fancy event. Disco pants not being cool doesn’t mean the Nature of Men has changed. This is a very simple concept to grasp.

“What would you tell a guy who’s MPO is to get married?”

That he’s had that socially conditioned into him and it’s VASTLY more likely than not going to end badly and that he can have everything he wants from a marriage without a legal contract so there’s no point putting his head in the noose.

What would YOU tell him? Be alpha bro 24/7 forever? Sorry I mean be DPA bro 24/7 forever?

“If one of your plates gives you herpes is it a strategically stupid decision you have made or a tactical error? And who is at fault?”

If the rate of STDs is climbing astronomically and everyone is catching herpes and you decide to ignore people warning you to wrap your dick and take precautions and you’re looking at a girl with sores all over her vag, then yes, you have made a stupid decision overall.

Why do you want to send guys to the gallows? To justify your own life choices?

“I am a strong advocate for men not just demonizing anything just because THEY can’t see a way to make things work.”

I’m not demonizing it, I’m just pointing out that statistically on all fronts and through endless shared experiences etc and based on everything we know and accept about attraction, it is 1) removing your ability to leave easily which drastically reduces your ability to keep hand and 2) society is attempting to get her to divorce you in a wide array of ways with levels of pressure and influence that weren’t around in the old days, 3) you are VERY likely to fail at it and the consequences will be astronomical and may destroy your life for the rest of it’s length

But more importantly 4) you can get EVERYTHING you get from a legal marriage without signing a legal contract. Can any guy who says “it CAN work though” bring up a reason to even TRY to walk that tightrope when you can get EVERYTHING (except like, a tax break or some shit, which will be significantly less than divorce costs) without signing that legal paper that puts your head in a noose?

Anyone? Bueller?

Now if a guy understands all that and still decides to get married, I won’t stop him, I’ll cross my fingers he’s the unicorn exception, but I’m sure as shit not going to recommend to all my buddies and future generations of men that they walk that tightrope to have kids when there are possible other alternative routes that don’t involve putting their head in a noose.

“Nobody wants to believe that monogamy is dead. That’s just sad to think about. It’s also sad to think the next generation of guys heading off to slaughter in an environment where monogamy is dead. It’s sad to think about how their kids are going to be affected by that environment. We’re realistically looking at probably two more generations of further deterioration until we hit bottom. That just sucks.”

This. Don’t shoot the messenger. You can ignore your disease but the longer you deny it’s there the harder it will be to treat down the road. Time to accept that we have a disease and look for alternative cures ’cause we at least have GLIMPSES of an older time where this stuff was easier to make work, that we can draw bits and pieces from (but have to take today’s cultural shifts into account). The next generation or two of guys will look at us the way we look at people trading cows for their wife and lol at how unapplicable that is to today’s society. “Just give her dad more cows guys, it worked for me” isn’t advice that guys are going to be able to apply.

“It’s just easier to come to the logically shallow conclusion that “It worked for me, so it can work for you. Women haven’t changed.” That’s the mindset you need to make it work, DPA is the mindset you need to make it work, but mindsets aren’t logical. Blax’s “Calm the fuck down and stop worrying” is the mindset you need to make it work. But you aren’t actually helping anyone raise babies with that advice. At some point you need to step back and look at things with the 1’s and 0’s part of your brain. We’re going to need to milk every advantage we can to make sure guys can be around to raise their kids in the future.”

This. Well put.

Like I GET it, because your guys’ view is the same view Naturals usually have “just be cool bro” and ya, that’s a good mindset. But on a MASS level we’re going to see populations drop and MGTOW pick up steam because this vague advice and positive thinking doesn’t take into account the realities of the world today (it just assumes that any guy who gets divorce raped wasn’t positive and alpha enough which is silly) and shit is going to go to hell between the sexes and none of that will change that we’ll still have men who WANT to have kids and WANT to have a long-term relationship with a woman, but who don’t have ANY method of achieving that except a broken strategy now full of holes and covered in rust that’s almost impossible to get to work with the selection of girls and culture they’ll be trying to apply it in.

“At some point you need to step back and look at things with the 1’s and 0’s part of your brain. We’re going to need to milk every advantage we can to make sure guys can be around to raise their kids in the future.”

Ya, we’re not discounting your opinions and we’re not saying that “being DPA is bad” and “being alpha is bad” We’re saying that realistically for the majority of the men out there, they’re not going to just become DPA overnight and have it last for life so they don’t get raped. So unless all you want is assholes like ME to reproduce then we should figure out some alternative ideas for guys that carry lower risks than the traditional route that’s clearly broken.

“All that being said my personal opinion is that PUA’s here wouldn’t have a problem keeping a 2016 girl around long enough to raise a kid. Is that your point? I can’t really tell.”

Personally I think keeping a girl around for the NRE years would be no problem, but past that (I’m assuming we’re talking about <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 culture) you're probably on borrowed time. She's probably going to have to stray at some point to realize that Fabio69's profile was full of shit, and that probably won't be at the 18 year mark. Most guys may have to deal with a custody battle of some kind at some point, probably around the 7-year-itch mark. If you can keep your shit up you might make it to your deathbeds together, but that's going to get more and more rare so better not to bank everything you have on being able to pull it off, especially when there's NO benefit to it.

"I’m no fan of men being afraid."

Not jumping out of a plane without a parachute and hoping you'll land on something soft isn't being afraid lol It's playing the odds intelligently.

"While we are on that topic, does anyone have a link or information to describe Tyler from RSD’s child situation from the last five years?"

Congrats to Golden State on the #nbafinals

A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

Just landed in Los Angeles after a long trip to the east coast

A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

#rsddylan assisting me with my hair loss issues

A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

You can find tons of pics of his kids on his Instagram. Seems to be going alright aside from him having a job where he has to travel a lot.

One of his kids has a slight mental disability (can't remember what disability, I think it's the kid that seems super happy all the time) and needs some special attention/schooling I think, but otherwise he's got some cute happy kids with a good positive male influence and wants to have a bunch more kids.

All without monogamy or legal marriage.

There are alternative paths to this shit…let the old system die and let's brainstorm and experiment for the next generations.

I THINK his original baby mama and him aren't together-together (so basically "divorced" minus all the bad shit that could have come with it if he was legally married to her) but they're still friends and there's no custody battles or anything and Tyler is banging young hotties and she's probably got some dude and he's able to still be a big influence in their life etc

Tyler's approach may fuck up entirely, who knows, but so far it looks like a pretty good setup, especially for a guy who's job doesn't involve as much travel. And it might not even be perfect, there are probably areas of how he did things that could be tightened up. So why push guys into monogamous LTRs and marriage chasing that 1% chance they'll stay alpha 24/7 for life when we could look for better approaches in this eat pray love society.

Personally I'd rather have Tyler's kids (brought up eating healthy, meditating, reading and learning etc as he programs them to be super-beings lol) befriending my future theoretical kids and running/influencing society than kids coming out of some deadbedroom miserable home full of cheating and jealousy and negativity eventually ending with a single mom raising them with random shitty male influences passing through each weekend and a dad that's breaking his back working 3 jobs living out of his car. lol

But to get there, we may have to accept that it might not be possible to BE "DPA" enough that she's NEVER going to be curious about those orbiters or NEVER going to cheat or go eat pray love for a bit. Maybe we have to accept that she's going to NEED to do that to reinforce how much better her life is with you if she starts to lose the feels and maybe we shouldn't be monoLTR'ing and legally handicapping ourselves so that if she DOES stray we can just call up another girl in our harem and bang her out till she comes back (or be fine with not taking her back but still have custody of our kids etc).

on September 7th, 2016 at 6:01 pm
Original Link

“Under certain conditions, the odds are pretty high that I can catch a bullet from a cop in a routine interaction. Lot’s and lot’s of examples for years and years. But I won’t overreact and barricade myself in my home, refusing to come outside because…you know….cops.”

The benefits you get from going outside VS barricading yourself in your home are so numerous it would be hard to even decide where to begin listing them.

What benefits does a man get from monogamy/marriage that he can’t get in a pLTR or without a legal contract?

No one answers this when I ask it but I’m seriously asking lol

The only benefit is not having to risk losing her or having to hold your frame that you won’t be monogamous, which comes from scarcity.

“and women will always come to heal under a man’s guidance and strong influence. Most women.”

Sure. But why be monogamous for that? Why risk a legal contract?

How would Andy’s long-term arrangement with his wife be any worse if he didn’t have a piece of paper signed that legally risks everything based on her staying happy for 40+ years? He could do literally everything else that he’s doing now, even down to choosing to be monogamous day to day with her, but without a noose around his neck, and would probably be MORE attractive to her for it because she knows he can leave (and she’d probably be more inclined to keep herself hot and pleasant for him so he doesn’t leave, VS the wife who gets the ring and stops the BJs and gets fat ’cause her hubby isn’t going anywhere)

What benefit does he get from that noose? Anyone? It only comes with downsides (making it more difficult to stay attractive and keep hand because you’re giving her all the ability to fuck you over).

on September 7th, 2016 at 6:17 pm
Original Link

To elaborate further:

1) we know that you can’t negotiate desire, so a legal contract and/or monogamy in exchange for her love is nonsense

2) we know statistically and anecdotally that a legal contract and/or monogamy will not prevent a woman from bailing/cheating

3) we know that the ability to leave her helps keep the man attractive

4) we know that the man staying attractive helps keep her attracted long-term

5) we know that women who fear their men leaving and/or feel jealousy (aka dread game), are more likely to bring their A-game to the relationship and desire him

6) we know that “needing it to work” creates outcome dependence

7) we know that the more outcome dependent a man is, the less attractive he is to the woman

8) we know that people who are incentivized and socially pressured to do something are more likely to do that thing and we know that women are incentivized and socially pressured to leave/cheat/divorce and eat pray love

9) we know that in a situation where a woman is incentivized to leave a man and a man is punished severely if that happens and a man has no other girls/options in his life, he will “need it to work” more and be more outcome dependent, which is less attractive, which makes it harder to keep hand etc

but most importantly 10) no one has named anything that a marriage and/or monogamy gives you that you can’t get without signing that legal piece of paper that puts the noose around your neck

If I proposed this as a business deal I would have to be able to name some pretty fucking AMAZING benefits you’d be getting out of it for you to take up this insane agreement lol Anyone got any for marriage/monogamy in 2016 where girls have orbiters lined up around the block in their pocket?

on September 7th, 2016 at 7:12 pm
Original Link

“Holding frame sounds strange. Frame is developed and integral. If you have to wrestle with it and hold it like a strong dog at the end of a leash pulling you, then something is wrong. With you. Lol.”

A significant number of men are pressured to agree to marriage out of a fear of losing their girl if they don’t agree to it. The pressure her, her family, her friends, his family, his friends, society, etc put on him is testing whether he can hold his frame against it being tested. He’s not wrestling with his own frame, he’s trying to hold his frame against external pressure.

“Benefits to monogamy/marriage will always, always be subjective. If a man sees zero benefit, there will be none, ever. He should avoid those things.”

I’m asking you, specifically. What benefits have you gotten from having your name on a piece of paper VS not and not having the option to have sex with other women VS having it?

“I think ( my opinion ) that here in the comments and on reddit and elsewhere in the sphere, the ” risks ” are being just a tad overstated.”

Statistics show otherwise lol And we are extrapolating the future…those statistics aren’t about to turn around from the plummeting trend, they’re going to continue to plummet. Guys reading this 10 years from now will be dealing with even higher more severe risks unless you have some kind of evidence/reason for us to believe that the trend will slow down or reverse?

“Again, if a man sees no value in monogamy, he should bypass that.”

Again, I’m asking you: what benefit is there to legal marriage and/or monogamy? We know your position is “well if he can’t see any benefit he shouldn’t do it”, but we’re asking you what benefit do YOU see in it? What benefit should a guy be looking for for legal marriage and monogamy to even be an OPTION on the table these days?

“The point is, Andy isn’t experiencing any real difficulty. It’s all in his head.”

Again, how would his situation be different if he simply didn’t have a legal noose around his neck or guilt about approaching/banging other women? Everything you’ve said is just evading answering these questions lol

“Sure, you are correct, Andy COULD have done everything you mentioned above.”

What benefit is he getting from NOT having done it without the legal contract and/or monogamy? Anything at all. A bit of a tax break?

“Hand wringing and worry will do nothing in his situation, especially since he is having no issues outside of his own thoughts and doubts. I love him dearly, but that’s all on him.”

Would a man have less hand-wringing and worry on his mind if his head wasn’t in a noose VS in a noose? Would you be more stressed about being 1 minute late for your job if you signed a contract saying you would be fired for being 1 minute late VS if you had no such contract and were able to arrive 5 minutes late without any risk to your career?

“There is zero benefit in marriage for most men.”

Agreed, except replace “most” with “all”. You haven’t given ANY benefit that a man, ANY man, even yourself, would get from legal marriage that he wouldn’t get from not having signed that paper.

“… you working my brain man.”

Part of why it works your brain is because your attachment to marriage is socially conditioned. That’s why you can’t just bust out “there’s this and this and this benefit that I wouldn’t have gotten if I hadn’t signed the paper”. Because you didn’t get married for a list of actual logical reasons, you got married because you were socially conditioned to believe it was “the thing to do”. There’s no ACTUAL reason for you to have done it except reasons that come down to pain/discomfort avoidance (ie – not having to deal with her threatening to end the relationship or give you drama etc for not agreeing to sign the paper, the same way a lot of guys won’t bring up a prenup because they don’t want to deal with the drama of her being offended by it).

This goes back to what Scray was saying way back about how when someone is socially conditioned, you can tell when you corner their thought process and force it to answer specific logical questions about it. It doesn’t HAVE answers because it was a conditioned decision.

If you ask me what benefit there is to going outside, I can list a thousand benefits without breaking a sweat. But if I can’t get ONE benefit of signing that contract or promising monogamy (VS being able to fool around but simply choosing not to if you don’t feel like it, but you have that freedom if you choose) out of the guys who talk about how “but it can still work, it might not be for everyone but for some guys…”, well, maybe it’s time to talk guys out of putting their neck in the noose instead of giving them tips on how best to balance on the stool under the noose.

“All men have the ability to leave. They may not want the penalty, but the ability is there none the less.”

Right, except that, I’m sure you’d agree just based on simple logic, that the penalty for a guy who signs that legal paper is significantly higher than a guy who doesn’t. I am at MUCH less risk breaking up with a girl I’m dating than Andy would be leaving his wife.

“Hmmm. I advocate for guys to abandon social pressures, especially ones like this. It’s all a part of the maturing stage. Be your own man…all that good shit.”

Agreed. But if you’re going to learn to hold your frame against social pressure, why not learn to hold your frame against the social pressure of signing a legal contract and being monogamous instead, since, as you agree with everything I wrote in that numbered list, it’s clearly a better option with less risk?

“Social pressure on women can be controlled. If a guy has to work at controlling it, he should not have gotten married. It’s up to him to grasp this.”

What reason can you give, any at all, for any man, even yourself, to deal with that whole situation? What benefit is there to him? Like why should he grasp this? What upside is there? Anything at all beyond the tax break.

“I get that the incentives are out there in the world, but it is not a given that a woman will always act on them.”

It’s not, but what benefit is there to the man to even ROLL those dice? Any benefit at all. Not “if he doesn’t see a benefit then don’t roll them”, I’m asking ANYTHING you can give, so we can look at it and figure out if that benefit can be obtained through a less risky way.

“If a guy wants to marry, he MUST up his understanding. Your wife does not run shit. If one is not prepared to LEAD, then he should get out of the way and stay single. It’s better for him.”

This applies to having a long-term relationship living together with kids where you simply don’t sign the legal paper. What benefit is there for any man at all, to “want to marry” and have to do the same “upping his understanding” but with significantly higher stakes at risk?

“What I name is that guys should not get married. If they decide that they want to go that route” “Then, decide with full knowledge.”

This is what I’m trying to kill. The very notion that marriage is even an OPTION anymore. And a man promising a girl monogamy as an option is on the same path toward the same dead end thanks to technology and cultural shifts.

The reason I brought this uncomfortable discussion up a few articles ago is that it should be widely accepted in the red pill community that there’s no decision anymore. Legal marriage is simply NOT an option now, we need alternatives and guides for how men can best execute them or we will simply be spinning our wheels till you old guys croak and still just have a broken system that gets progressively worse as the trends show.

And promising girls monogamy should be HEAVILY looked at now that technology has created a female-favored pLTR situation while men are still agreeing to monogamy…but the red pill has provided guides for creating harems and oLTRs and mLTRs and pLTRs etc, so there are at least other options in that area.

Whereas in the “how do I successfully have kids raised in a stable 2-parent household?” department we have ONE plan: the broken shitty plan that statistically is tanking and will continue to tank and holds insane levels of risk.

Even the crazy ideas like whoever pitched “just keep her pregnant”…hey, maybe that’s an idea worth discussing. Time to think outside the box if we want solutions for the next generations of men (and women, since the end result would ultimately benefit both, and society).

on September 7th, 2016 at 7:25 pm
Original Link

I just want to quote myself here to make sure it’s clear that I’m not attacking you or your marriage or any of you old guys and your marriages:

“It’s not, but what benefit is there to the man to even ROLL those dice? Any benefit at all. Not “if he doesn’t see a benefit then don’t roll them”, I’m asking ANYTHING you can give, so we can look at it and figure out if that benefit can be obtained through a less risky way.”

What I’m doing is saying: look, we have a store that’s GREATLY over-charging for this can of juice (having kids), and whenever you purchase it you have a 50% chance of being punched in the face. 99% of guys are going to want that juice because they’re biologically hardwired to want it.

But we have another store over here where the juice is a reasonable price and there’s a 0% chance of being punched in the face.

You guys managed to NOT get punched in the face and you have great tips on how other guys can take those odds down to maybe only a 40%, maybe even only a 30% chance of being punched in the face.

But what benefit is there to getting that juice from the store that’s overcharging with the 30-50% chance of being punched in the face? Any benefit at all.

Because sheer logic says that there’s no reason to ever buy from that store. Every man should be buying that juice at a reasonable price from the 0% punch in the face risk store.

And now the part I’m trying to emphasize here:

The reason I’m asking you to name benefits of buying from the punch-face store is so that if you say “well, you get a bag of potato chips WITH it and not every man might decide that bag of potato chips is worth the risk, and if he doesn’t think it is, he should stick to the store with low risk”

But we need you to TELL US about that bag of potato chips so that we can then say “okay, is there a way that this guy could get the juice from the no risk store AND get a bag of potato chips through some OTHER means? Is there an alternate way for him to obtain a bag of potato chips? Yes? Okay, then we have getting the juice AND potato chips at minimal risk now. Are there any OTHER benefits? No? Then no man should even CONSIDER the face-punch store.”

Make sense? I’m not picking on you, I’m just asking you about that bag of potato chips so that we can make a better store for men so they don’t have to risk getting punched in the face to get that juice.

on September 7th, 2016 at 7:27 pm
Original Link


lol jk congrats dude! Props for putting in all the hard work to get to the point where a girl thinks you know everyone and is wanting your number. I can vividly remember my first successes, that shit sticks with you. Good luck with the Day2, looking forward to the FR! You earned it dude

on September 7th, 2016 at 7:33 pm
Original Link

“Make sense? I’m not picking on you, I’m just asking you about that bag of potato chips so that we can make a better store for men so they don’t have to risk getting punched in the face to get that juice.”

Just to add to that because I really want to make it clear that I’m not just trying to be an annoying asshole lol

What we need from you old guys who married is what benefits you guys got from it, so that we can help guys find other ways to get those benefits in a lower-risk fashion. Does that make sense?

We can’t see ANY benefit to legal marriage or monogamy that they can’t still get from a non-legal non-agreeing-to-monogamy arrangement, so we need you guys knee-deep in that shit to tell us what benefit you get, or Andy gets, or Big Al will get, or hank and his new girlfriend (lol) will get, etc

Because to US, legal marriage is 100% dead. Even if it can be made to work there’s NO benefit/reason to even TRY to make it work. And it shouldn’t even be presented as an option to men anymore. With monogamy following hot on its trail.

So we need YOU to tell us what the benefits are to learning to make it work so we can look at those benefits and devise new safer solutions to obtaining them.

Even promised-monogamy. What benefits are there to promising monogamy that there aren’t to having the option to bang other girls but simply choosing not to on a day to day basis? Any benefits at all? Any benefits that aren’t simply pain avoidance (wanting to avoid risking drama or losing her etc)?

Enlighten us ya old fucks, this is your chance to bestow your experience on us so we can use it to help future generations of men lol

on September 7th, 2016 at 9:24 pm
Original Link

“2) The benefit to me was in having a wife, her taking my name, and the understanding that the marriage meant that 99% of the silly, dumb shit stopped. ” Married ” is different than ” dating “.”

Ok finally lol Now let’s take this apart step by step.

“The benefit to me was in having a wife”

lol we can throw this out because “the benefit to me in having a wife is having a wife” is circular logic just like “the benefit of being a feminist is being a feminist”

“her taking my name”

I actually don’t know if this is possible without legal marriage. People ARE able to apply for name changes though, so theoretically it would be possible without legal marriage. Though that would fuck with the guys in common-law states for sure (because they’re acting like spouses, so the lesson is don’t be in a common-law state or work on changing those laws).

That said, these days a lot of men don’t even get that benefit from it anyway, their wife keeps their last name or hyphenates for various reasons. So legal marriage isn’t a guarantee of that, and in an age of technology and pushing women to have careers early on, where “all my customers and business marketing stuff is based around my actual last name so I can’t change it”, we’ll probably see less taking of the last name.

“and the understanding that the marriage meant that 99% of the silly, dumb shit stopped.”

lol we know from the ample amount of men who the “silly, dumb shit” didn’t stop for when they got legally married, that legal marriage is no guarantee of this.

Can you think of a reason why the “silly, dumb shit” wouldn’t have stopped if you had simply laid down the law the way you did once you got married? Like, why couldn’t you have just laid down the law with your “enough of this silly, dumb shit” without legally marrying her? There was nothing in your marriage contract about no silly, dumb shit (presumably). The “silly, dumb shit” stopping came from you holding your frame, which you could do outside of a legal marriage contract.

So none of those benefits are benefits you couldn’t get outside of a legal marriage contract. This is why I wanted you to write them out, so we can look at them and see “well, how relevant IS that these days? And are there alternative routes we can go for guys to achieve those things that carry less risk?”

So legitimately thanks for answering, because there are other guys out there contemplating marriage who will think those same things “the silly, stupid games will stop and I want her to have my name and this INSANE risky legal contract is the way to get those things to happen!” and we can give them alternatives to achieve those things (or explain how they no longer exist or were the result of something else BESIDES the legal marriage contract (like you manning up lol)), but minus the risk.

“I think my benefit comes in part from having a wife that is on the same page with me re: marriage. It is serious business, but it is also fun and exciting at the same time.”

You already answered this so this is rhetorical but for the sake of walking guys through what I’m trying to explain, I would ask to this: In what way would you say a legal contract marriage is a different level of serious business that’s also fun and exciting compared to living together, choosing not to sleep with other women (even though you have the option to), having and raising kids under the same roof together, and choosing voluntarily to spend the rest of your lives together, minus the legal noose around your neck? But as you said:

“You can have that without the marriage part”

“A woman can not pressure me because she is a woman.”

Then couldn’t you have had the same end to the silly, dumb shit you had but without the legal contract?

“So having a “wife ” is much different from having a ” gf “.”

These are just arbitrary labels that have lost their meaning to society. A “wife” won’t even entertain a thought experiment about giving up her social media because that’s too controlling, in 2016. The old set of books has been thrown out and men need to catch up.

“But if one sees no difference”

So then we come down to just social/religious conditioning that puts meanings on arbitrary labels and essentially convinced you to enter a legal contract based on nothing in the same way I might bet on red at the roulette table based on a feeling.

The thing is that’s not even a BAD thing, or it wasn’t back then compared to now…in a different social culture. But NOW it’s important for men contemplating marriage to understand whether their decision is coming from actual logic or from just “feels” and conditioning, because of how severely lopsided that contract has become compared to your day.

“If guys believe that women hold every, single card”

Legally and statistically they pretty much do…once you sign that legal contract. As long as you don’t sign it, they don’t. If I hand you a gun there’s a low chance you’ll shoot me. If you grow to hate me over time, there’s a better chance you’ll shoot me. If I don’t hand you a gun at ALL, you can’t shoot me. That’s not fear, that’s basic logic.

You have an emotional attachment conditioned into you to put meaning on the handing over of that gun to your partner, and what I’m exposing is that that is based on nothing and the stats show that there’s an increased % chance of partners shooting them along with the backing and pressure of society for them to do it, and that they have to understand there is no actual meaning behind handing over that gun. They don’t have to do it and should not even consider it.

Everyone wants guys to change society, we all want this beta uprising, MGTOW, marriage strike, we’ll show those women that if they want us to commit then they’ll have to change and become better human beings and be feminine and lose weight and be less bitchy!!!!!!!! Which means no kids for anyone and lots of fatherless kids that grow up to ruin society.

But when I come along and say “okay, let’s look at options for how we can build a mass plan for men across the board to start following that DOES prevent them from being legally noosed AND allows them to have kids and raise them and be an influence with no risk to the man, everyone loses their fucking mind and wants me to shut up.

We all wanna see this big revolutionary change in society that fixed everything, we just don’t wanna have to sit down and discuss it because it involves uncomfortable feels and guys checking their egos and asking themselves hard questions.

@stuffinbox @kfg
“Real property deeds can be drawn up with a survivor clause. Joint bank accounts default to the survivor, but can also be formed as Payable On Death to a designee. A legal Health Proxy gives all the medical proxy rights of a spouse.

A Power of Attorney can give rights to act in your behalf from limited to picking up the mail, to doing everything as if they were you save for altering your will.”

This. Perfect. This is the discussion I’m trying to coax out here. There’s a legitimate benefit to marriage, but here’s an alternative solution for men that offers no risk.

“I suppose you guy s could just skip the legal marriage part and just write a will,leaving all of your valuable assets to your significant other or whatever you decide to call her.”

There’s no reason you can’t still call her your significant other, you can even throw a wedding and honeymoon. Unless you’re in a common-law state, which is a thing we should be working on abolishing and making sure men know which states that shit applies and how to avoid being trapped in it (like as Big Al WOULD HAVE LEARNED IF HE HAD DONE HIS FUCKING HOMEWORK LIKE HE SAID HE DID BUT LIED BECAUSE HE DIDN’T WANT ANYONE QUESTIONING HIS FEEEEEELZ ABOUT MARRIAGE, you can write up a legal agreement that says you don’t want to be commonlaw wed ahead of time, and we could discuss how to bring up and execute that conversation, a basic routine/guideline if you will).

“Does sort of make marriage seem redundant.”

This is my point. πŸ™‚ When you ACTUALLY turn off the feels and look at it, there is NO benefit to legal marriage. The whole thing is social conditioning.

“A girl who is not married is just shacking up and is more inclined to not be with Blaximus, SJF or Andy”

If Hypergamy, which we all accept, dictates whether she stays attracted and strays or not, which we all accept, and, as Sentient says, being “DPA” will keep her attracted to you, then there are the exact same odds of her staying with you or not staying with you whether you’re legally married or not because it’s based on Hypergamy/DPA instead of the legal contract.

In the PAST there was a lot of shaming and negative consequences (like her having no financial income etc) to her bailing. Now there’s none and encouragement of the opposite.

“and do something stupid with her vagina or with her children.”

Again if DPA works in legal marriage, then DPA works outside of legal marriage. There are the exact same odds except that in legal marriage you’re also forcing yourself into a situation where you have less ability to leave and increase the risk of developing scarcity and outcome dependence which hasten her losing attraction.

“She truly has no “legal” obligation”

She has none now. Your old wife would suffer if she left you, but a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 will only gain rewards, from financial to attention.

"and she will meet every non-monogamous decision the man makes with her own decision/transgression."

This comes back to "I'm scared to have my frame tested or have uncomfortable discussions with her or lose her", which is scarcity-based. Except that you can say "I get to fuck around and you don't, and if you do I'll walk away" and WALK AWAY with no major consequences, because you didn't agree to anything binding. They are scared to not agree to monogamy because they're scared their girl won't agree to it or will "punish" them for it, which is the opposite of outcome independence.

"Come on. I’m old school and would never have enjoyed the fruits of my situation if I didn’t get married."

This is what I'm asking you old guys: in what way would you not be exactly where you are now if you had 1) not signed the legal marriage contract but had otherwise thrown a wedding, lived together, raised kids together, called yourselves married to all the neighbors etc etc, and 2) you had the OPTION to fuck other girls but simply chose every day not to bother with other girls, but were under no actual obligation to exercise your non-monogamous options?

Serious question. In what way would your life look different given those two factors? It would look exactly the same.

"So what is the problem?"

The problem is you guys are still pushing the "but if you want to, it can work" shit, and the "my life wouldn't be this amazing without legal marriage" shit and the "monogamy is still possible, if you don't agree to monogamy then she'll punish you" shit which scares guys away from better paths and gives them hope that the broken shitty path might still work if they roll double-sixes.

"Once upon a time, circa 200 years ago, marriage conferred certain responsibilities and corollary rights to a spouse. It no longer does so. Marriage is dead, not just because of a social climate that includes feminism and smart phones, but because it no longer exists. The proper noun has been kept as subterfuge, but it has been replaced by the legal system with Civil Union."

This. My argument in my original post in that Commitment article was that just as you described that Marriage as these guys and previous generations no longer exists, even though we still CALL it the "old name" and men enter it THINKING it'll be the same, it's NOT…

…my argument is that MONOGAMY is the same way, in 2016. It's a fake label that men don't realize isn't what it used to be. It used to be "we both give up our other options for eachother and focus on eachother". Now it's "the man gives up his options and the woman keeps her social media and male orbiters in her social circles that all want to fuck her and keeps working in a workplace with other men and she keeps stringing them along until the day you fuck up, and she gaslights you into thinking you're being controlling/abusive/silly if you tell her you don't want her to have Facebook or work with those men or talk with her friends she's had since high-school and keeps in touch with over the internet even though they live on the other side of the world now (when in the past she would have been able to at best write a letter to them, now she can Skype video them)".

THAT'S my real point. Women in 2016 who have social media and a job working around other men are NOT offering men "monogamy". They're offering what I just described above, a pLTR in their favor that requires the man to cut off all his options while she DOESN'T (and continues to collect MORE options).

So again: "MONOGAMY" is dead. No man should be offering monogamous commitment because their girl, if she has social media, males in her social circle, or men at work, is NOT offering monogamy back…even though we still CALL that arrangement I described "monogamy", it's anything BUT.

"I can get annoyed by Ya Really’s reductio ad absurdum strawmen, but in this case I will note that there is no state sanctioned 21 year marriage contract. Till divorce do you part, and divorce is divorce."

lol I'm just reducing this all to the basic logic because everyone has emotional attachment to this shit.

"should have referred to YaReally in regards to way too much risk avoidance going on/being recommended here. Not living on your edge is buffering higher possible rewards."

Okay now PLEASE tell us what the "higher possible rewards" of taking this risk is. I've been asking for like 4 posts now. Blaximus offered a few, stuffinbox offered a few, we neutered all of those. What do YOU have to offer as a "higher possible reward" that men will get for it, that they can't get through other means?

Anything, throw it out there, I'm not being sarcastic, I legitimately want to know about your old man experience so we can analyze it and help men. You wanna see a revolution, help us out and tell us about these "higher possible rewards" so we can figure out if there are ways to achieve them through lower risk means.

"I’m talking LTR."

No one is against LTRs, at least I'm not. I've never been against LTRs lol

"But holy shit, maybe we should reduce the argument to starting with a true high quality woman."

Unicorn argument. AWALT, Hypergamy still controls their attraction. Society makes it harder to stay on top of her Hypergamy list for a 40+ year marriage and any "DPA" you can do IN a legal marriage to prevent her from leaving, you can do OUTSIDE of a legal marriage.

"You have to compromise your strategy, sometimes for low downside and high upside"

There are obvious upsides to LTRs, we can all list off a dozen without thinking. But none of you have offered up an upside to legal marriage or monogamy (these "higher possible rewards" worth not avoiding risk) that can't be gotten without the risk.

"Then why are you even debating? Why do you even think you can propagate children in that realm?"

Because I think about other men and future generations instead of just myself.

"Goes back to that Antifragility, Nassim Taleb stuff. You want to mitigate all risk, you limit your upside"

What upside did you get from your legal marriage that you wouldn't have gotten through not signing the piece of paper? You yourself SAID that your life wouldn't be as amazing if you hadn't gotten legally married. In what way would it not have been as amazing?

Serious question, please give us anything for us to analyze and find alternative routes to.

Otherwise you're saying "there aren't actually any upsides you'd be limiting by not taking risks, but still take risks for no reason" which is simply silly advice.

"And stating there are no quality woman is a false premise."

Madonna/whore unicorn complex. This is just purple pill shit. Attraction is not a choice they choose to turn on and off, their attraction is controlled by Hypergamy. They may not be great motherly material, they may have good/bad habits/traits, but none of that will make her stay with a man she's not attracted to, unless she puts him in a deadbedroom arrangement and probably cheats etc on him which is not a situation we want men to be in.

"I was meaning a feminine woman that can actually give a man energy, raise his children great, have a great feminine personality, and be respected in the social set as one of the most attractive around both because of physical aspects but also personality aspects. And also one that can nurse her parents in their declining years, both in illness and their deathbed and into the grave with respect and a blessing of dignity. "

That girl sounds great. And anything you can do in a legal marriage or monogamy to keep that amazing girl attracted to you long-term, you can do without the legal marriage and without monogamy.

"She has a few feral house cats, but she hasn’t actually gone feral on me yet. She tried once, but I wouldn’t allow it."

And you can "not allow it" without legal marriage or monogamy…in fact it would be EASIER To "not allow it" without those because you have less risk and more hand in the relationship to punish her with if she tries it.

on September 7th, 2016 at 9:35 pm
Original Link

“If Hypergamy, which we all accept, dictates whether she stays attracted and strays or not, which we all accept, and, as Sentient says, being “DPA” will keep her attracted to you, then there are the exact same odds of her staying with you or not staying with you whether you’re legally married or not because it’s based on Hypergamy/DPA instead of the legal contract.”

Sorry, to clarify I meant “there are the exact same BASELINE odds”, like, not taking cultural pressures/influences and dread etc into consideration…just looking purely at you two being in an empty room together legally or not legally married lol

When you then add the culture pressures/influences etc she’s more likely to stray or compare you to more options or devalue you (making it harder to stay triggering her Hypergamy VS in the past when she didn’t have a dozen social media 6-pack mansion guys messaging her offering her a better life), and when you add the easier ability to create dread when not legally married then NOT being legally married becomes an even better option on both counts.

on September 7th, 2016 at 10:14 pm
Original Link

Basically do you wanna see more guys and future generations of men (as statistics are showing is increasing) ending up like this:

’cause those are the current paths…enter contracts with insane risks and lose access to your kids and end up in deadbedrooms etc etc (for no benefit that anyone can actually seem to name when I ask what the benefit to the legal contract is)…or just MGTOW/PUA/etc forever and refuse to settle and have kids. Those are the options right now. And those are the ones that don’t contribute to the astronomical male suicide rate.

Personally I’d like if we could offer guys an alternative low-risk plan that increases all the odds in their favor so that we end up with more guys and future generations of men ending up like this:

Morning habit = meditation, read with my kids

A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

Mommy? #wherewegoing? #help #meee

A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

Just putting the final editing touches on this beast of an infield video release for If you'd like to experience my best program in 10 years, come join the tribe. Would love to have you along for the adventure.

A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

If that takes a few uncomfortable discussions where people think I’m a dick, well hey, I’d say that’s worth the risk. LOOK AT ME SJF I’M TAKING RISKS LIKE A REAL MAN!!

on September 8th, 2016 at 2:32 pm
Original Link

“Yeah. The victory cry of a 64 year old maintaining his frame over his 62 year old is not exactly some hugely incentivizing image for the never-marrieds.”


Social media has a very different impact when you’re a dad seeing his daughter use it on the couch while she watches TV, who puts it away when he tells her to, and a wife who picked social media up late in life and doesn’t care about it much, compared to when you’re a guy who agreed to a monoLTR legal or otherwise.

Unless you guys are trying to monoLTR your daughters, you’re always going to be an outside observer that only sees the surface level of the issue. You’re not going to feel what it’s like to try to get a girl who even in a thought experiment won’t give up her social media for Brad Pitt, to give it up. During the NRE stage? Maybe. But after the NRE wears off and she has 20-30-whatever years of “using social media” neural networks built…

I know *I’VE* txted other girls when the girls I’m with have gone to sleep or I’m in the bathroom or just not around them. They could have told me not to use my phone and I’d have said “lol sure” and then just done it behind their back, and if I got caught “oh it’s my buddy txting me about last night I just have to answer this quick”. Same way Blaximus’ young guests won’t use their phone in front of him but will whip it out the second they’re away from him.

But we expect women to have some amazing self-retraint? Based on what, “honor”? Negotiated desire? Because they demonstrate SO WELL that they have SO MUCH self-restraint in every other area? lol

“It’s not just that, a guy with a 50+ wife (and not banging much younger on the side) is not playing in the same league. He’s going “I hit a 20mph fastball today, look at me, look at me!””

This. But everyone gets offended when I point this out lol

“So a 50+ wife sucks it up, often literally, pitches 20mph shit tests, and ego boosts her fragile husband. Cool, now in the big leagues the 28 year old hb7 has batters all day long.”

And that’s not even the major leagues, like trying to lock down a <25yo 8+/10 in a major city, AND you're not some badass older alpha male Blaximus girls cream themselves over who has TONS of offer (no sarcasm lol), you're just some <25yo average guy trying to navigate the SMP because you want a girlfriend, you don't even have a very solid frame yet but fuck are you ever lonely when all the girls you meet have multiple fuckbois and orbiters and walk away laughing when you try to tell them not to use social media because they won't even give it up for their dream man.

"Naw – she forgets about that noose or the dread after a few years and kids. The daily grind of living life takes over the dread and she’ll get fat and ugly and those BJs stop pretty soon after the the first kid. Don’t asl me how I know…"

She may be too distracted to consciously think about it or even be too good a person to actively try to divorce-rape you, but her KNOWING that you aren't going to be able to easily leave her is why she'll get fat and stop the BJs and take you for granted. She'll blame "oh I'm tired from the kids" and "oh I don't feel sexy" and a million other reasons, but if she was LEGITIMATELY still attracted to you and still worried about losing you she would go hit the gym and start blowing. We can use the results of guys executing the MMSL plan alone to demonstrate this.

"I think it all comes down to the man’s game and perhaps that 24/7 thing if he wants her to stay pretty and slim and sexy."

If he has sick game, he might overcome the handicap of not being able to easily leave her. But I say why handicap himself in the first place? Why not stack the odds in his favor so that he doesn't HAVE to have insane game to keep her. Why not stick to an arrangement that naturally fuels his value with passive traits like dread game and the ability to leave her which lets him be more authoritative etc

"There’s a limit on how strong a force the dread/alpha game is compared to the allure of the new."

Yup. That's why I'm stressing not just little even 5 year relatioships where most of it is NRE, but I'm talking 18+ years so you can raise a kid together in a stable 2 parent household. 18 years is a looooong time for the average guy to lose his mojo or miscalibrate or even cheat himself or fuck up keeping attraction (I know guys who can get laid but fuck their LTRs up in under a year all the fucking time), and that whole time she's got highlight reel profiles and guys at work and men through her social circle entering her life dangling away in front of her looking like fun and excitement on a scale we've never seen before in history thanks to technology.

"The underlying problems to overcome is the relief of boredom"

This is one of those big issues that I haven't even started to get into yet. Blaximus brought it up earlier, and it does relate to this discussion. We're looking at a generation that hasn't learned to keep themselves entertained. Little kids are handed ipads and shit, stimulus-machines that they can rely on for entertainment 24/7. When I was a kid there were parts of the day with tv shows I wanted to watch and the rest of the day I was on my own to go run around the block finding ways to entertain myself or just learning to enjoy a lazy boring day.

But now can you juggle your career and raising your kid and taking care of the home and everything while ALSO providing 24/7 stimulus to your wife to keep her from being bored (which she'll view as her life with you being boring, not HER being boring)? Can you basically be a dancing monkey feeding her stimulus 24/7? Because this next generation will be freaking out when they don't have their stimulation devices. Even I panic when I leave the house without my phone to go eat or something and am like "ah shit, NOW what do I do while I eat, I can't read the internet!! Maybe I should go back and get my phone…" lol

I'm a pretty fun guy, for a length of time. But I need my downtime, I have my quiet moments, I'm not a dancing monkey swirling and twirling 24/7 like some children's TV show coming up with crafts and games and shit for us to do together, I have other shit to focus on. I've spent long periods of time at a girl's place or her at my place and there's just so much downtime and boredom, and those were in 2 year LTRs, not even 10+ years or 40+ years.

In the past she'd get knocked up at <20yo and stay knocked up every few years and that shit would keep her busy and give her all the stimulus and drama she needs. But now couples are putting off having kids till their 30s because that's the plan given to them by society and no one else is offering a better plan except "oh just have them sooner" and not having answers when they go "ya I pitched that to them all and they all said they want to focus on her career first, there might be some 0.0001% girl on a farm somewhere who's cool with popping out babies at 20yo somewhere but we can't ALL settle with her".

A lot of the frustration in society and the reason stuff like MGTOW and angry MRAs and jaded players like Roosh etc comes from just not having an alternative plan/route to the goal. We all know the current path is fucked up, but no one is coming up with alternatives. It's like being hungry and someone saying "oh don't eat that food, statistics show there's a good chance it will be poisoned" but not offering alternative food that's not poisoned or is less likely to be poisoned. That hunger doesn't go away for guys, it just turns into frustration.

"It would be EASIER to take care of this relationship if I wasn’t married."

This is my point really. Andy is probably doing alright. But he would have more ability to shape his life if he wasn't legally restrained. That's all. He could choose to do everything exactly as he's done it but without the noose and he would have more maneuverability and room for error.

"I’ve been the ex that goes out for coffee. lol."

lol a lot of my views on this aren't because I'm worried about myself, they're because I'm the asshole who's girlfriends, fiances, wives, etc are coming over to fuck, have my name saved in their phone as a chick name, text me when they're sitting on the couch beside their husband, call their boyfriend to tell them they're going to crash at their BFF girlfriend's house while I'm going down on her trying to distract her during the phone call, etc I'm the guy they talk about how bored they are or how """"controlling"""" their boyfriends are when their boyfriends try to lay down the law or get them to not txt around them etc

Lots of us have been that guy. And I'm sure not all the guys with these girls were just loser AFC pieces of shit…some of them were probably pretty cool, at least at SOME point in their relationship, like the NRE stage, but they weren't able to keep alpha 24/7 forever and she went out on a girls' night out or she made a social media account etc and ran into me.

"Mindset wise I don’t worry about anything."

Right, I think Blaximus has this vision of us all being like "OMG BUT WUT IF SHE CHEATS AHH DOOM GLOOM" 24/7 but no, this is just a logical compartmentalized discussion. Just like during a sarging debrief you discuss where you might have slipped up in your game with a set you lost, objectively and without emotions involved, but IN that set you don't even entertain the thought that you could fuck up because you're too awesome.

We are just discussing and analyzing some uncomfortable realities and trends and statistics.

"And honestly, that’s all I really care about. If she does stray I’ll just dump her when they turn 18."

Again maybe this part of a potential solution to discuss. What if around the 7 year mark you dump her for 6 months, to remind her what life without you is like, then take her back. In the old days Tyler would purposely pick a fight and break up with his girls before he went travelling for a month, so that they would be too obsessed with getting him back because he did a sudden hard takeaway, to cheat on him lol If you weren't legally married, you could do something like that. And then maybe do it again when the kids turn 18 and she's hit the wall.

Maybe there's something in there worth looking at in terms of forming a long-term strategy that has a better success rate than the plummeting success rates of the current plans.

"I have no reason to doubt you. I'll have a better perspective on it in 2 or 3 years."

All of this will take time to fully test, and a lot of dudes who are up for taking some serious chances for the greater good lol But the current plan isn't working well…statistics and simple observation show that shit is getting worse not better out there in terms of fatherless kids and broken homes and shit.

"I structured my 28 year mLTR with legal wills&testaments, shared property, and a certain amount of trust. Walking out was easy and free. The mLTR was our choice and nothing drawn on a legal contract would have change much except making the legal transfer of property on death a bit easier."

See this is the kind of stuff we need to discuss. Also mLTR technically means "multiple-LTRs" (multiple girlfriends (LTRs) basically, VS fuckbuddies), that's why I always say monoLTR. I assume you mean monoLTR lol, but just pointing it out to keep terminology consistent and all.

But like, why aren't red pill guys looking into how to structure that kind of relationship instead? Sure it didn't pan out, there may have been things you could have tweaked here and there to improve it (like having more game in general) but like, you got out of there nice and smooth. Why nail yourself to the cross when you don't have to?

"It’s time we shed the last shackles of the religious era – only men are bound by them anyways."

This. That's why I brought up the monogamy is dead thing. Guys in a "monogamous relationship" with a girl who has social media, works around other men, and/or has males in her social circles, are NOT in a monogamous relationship. They're bound and restrained and the girl is NOT. That's important to understand.

"Men must accept subservience to women. There’s nothing you can possibly ever do. Be sure to get a nice, sturdy couch for the long haul."

You're dropping into sarcastic exaggeration because answering the actual questions forces you to admit that there really isn't any benefit to marriage that you couldn't have gotten by just having a strong frame with no legal ties lol

"It’s impossible for any woman to be faithful because every woman is doggedly pursued by hundreds of men."

No one's ever said it's impossible. Just that it's significantly more difficult now than when you did it.

"I’m going to eat breakfast. I’ll ask my 22 year old neighbor what I should eat."

Looks like we broke Blax lol But this is what happens when you confront socially conditioned beliefs. There's no logic behind them, just emotion. This is WHY I'm asking you the questions lol because you don't realize you're giving socially conditioned responses that don't hold up under logical analysis.

"This non legal ltr that you are proposing is nothing new in this society. It has been done and is being done all the time."

Agreed. The irony of it is the most successfull ones are the ones that don't advertise it, because when you advertise it, the girl receives social pressure about it and that makes it more likely to blow up. Gene Simmons is a good example, he was fine until he got cocky and made a reality show that showed his arrangement and then got caught on tape banging a groupie that his wife was 100% fine with all the other times he did it in the past except NOW she's in the spotlight and has social pressure focused on her.

"How important is that biological need for survival of your genes being passed down to the future generations?"

Not important enough to risk ending up like divorced and miserable married guys I've met lol I don't have any desire for kids right now (because much like with women, I don't focus on "but they're so cuuuuute" I focus on "I'll have to clean poopy diapers and deal with tantrums in public places and that's annoying", "my wife's vag will get shredded", you know, the realities of having kids instead of the roses and sunshine vision society pitches lol) but I'm open to the possibility (and realistically the likelihood) that around the 45-50 year mark I'll have more desire to pass on my genes and teach my kids what I've learned and, as I've agreed with from the start, the best environment to raise a kid in is a 2-parent stable household.

It's not relevant to me right NOW, but half the commenters here may be dead or in nursing homes when it IS relevant to me, better ask questions while I can lol

"It was all roses and rainbows until you got to “shitty male influences passing through each weekend.” You will have that in the pLTR or really no matter what."

You can live with her and raise the kids together and let her know that you'll leave her if she fucks other guys etc. Primary LTR is not the same as an Open LTR. You can have a one-sided pLTR where you're allowed to bang around and she's not. But most guys can't even conceive that that's an option or that they could do it, because they're socially conditioned to think it's impossible/abusive lol when really it's more the natural order of things biologically. She'll still have the social media influences and shit, but you won't have shitty male influences passing through your kids' lives each weekend any more than a legally married guy living with her and raising the kids together does.

"The marriage ends with divorce and you get shitty male influences"

Right, which is why I think it's important to come up with with plans that have better odds of making it to at least the 10 year mark…ideally 16-18+ but if you can even get a kid to the 10-16 age range, you should be able to program them enough that they're not as influenced by whatever random dicks she ends up bringing into their lives after the separation.

"All these scenarios will lead to her having other males around your kids in close proximity that may or may not have shitty values, shoot heroin, physically, sexually or otherwise abuse etc…."

A non-legalized relationship where you live together and raise the kids together etc will have no more risk of her bringing heroin addicts around the house than a legally married relationship where you live together and raise the kids together etc. Except that without the legal contract she's more likely to behave and NOT bring heroin addicts around because you can bail on her easily.

It's fascinating how deeply entrenched the social conditioning of "what? You don't want to be legally married? WELL THEN YOU MUST NOT LIVE TOGETHER AT ALL AND YOUR KIDS WILL NEVER KNOW YOU". Like no, you can just do everything you would do in a legal marriage, including a wedding and living together and raising kids together etc, but without the legal noose.

"Is that ideal? Your children being forced to call some shitty asshole dad?"

Nope. But his legal marriage didn't prevent that from happening, so he could have gotten the same result but without the legal marriage noose around his neck. I'm sorry for your friend but this is just an emotional argument you're making, it doesn't really relate to the style of relationship I'm describing.

"You ARE getting into a state bound legal “contract” by making a baby. The agreement came when you came inside her. You’re now tied legally for a minimum of 18 years (if they graduate on time or have no special needs). Financially you’re fucked. The state will take the money directly out of your paycheck to support the baby you made and it’s momma. You will have ZERO say in what she spends the money on. You may also be forced to provide health insurance which may include eye and dental care."

Right, all valid points. The way to view things is: "every reason that I can't easily walk away from her is another chain on me". We've gotten to the point where we can avoid EVERY SINGLE CHAIN POSSIBLE if we want, with game/red pill knowledge…except two big chains that guys still put on themselves: legal marriage and having kids.

We NEED to have kids. That's just how society survives. So we can't say "don't put the kids chain on yourself", we HAVE to look at "okay WITH this chain, how can we still make sure we keep her attracted long-term with low risk etc". Because if you DON'T want kids then you don't have to wear any chains at all, but we're talking about how to get guys to be able to safely have kids and raise them in 2-parent households.

But LEGAL MARRIAGE?? That's a chain that is VOLUNTARY. You don't HAVE to do that shit. So my point is why ADD an unneccesary chain when you already have the kids chain? Just keep the number of chains to the bare minimum so it's easier to keep attraction long-term.

"At Christmas and birthdays you may or may not be allowed time with your offspring. You may or may not get to attend parent teacher conferences. You might get lucky and find out the schedule for your kids little league games or dance recitals. If you’re lucky the momma might share with you the child’s report card from school."

Again you're picturing a scenario where the couple is separated, not living together and raising the kids together. I agree with your rant, being divorced and separated sucks dick, but that's not the arrangement I'm describing as the ideal. I'm describing one that looks EXACTLY like a legal marriage, but without the legal contract signed.

"All I’m saying that it’s pretty risky to just go make babies and expect shit to be all rainbows."

Yup I agree. But a legal marriage contract and/or monogamy (espeically when she's only offering a pLTR in her favor thanks to technology and social trends as I've explained), is going to make things MORE risky.

"My point about kids is similar to yours about marriage. Don’t do it. Enjoy nieces and nephews."

lol this is my personal current view. But the reality is we're going to have generations of men coming up who will want to have kids. That's just biology. Right now they have NO plan except this broken marriage shit where they think they have to get legally married OR ELSE. I say let's work on new strategies for them, since we have all this understanding of attraction and chick-brains, instead of just sitting on the knoweldge feeling enlightened.

"Getting the vasectomy was an excellent decision on my part."

Considering it myself lol Store swimmers in a freezer and get the snip just to stay safe. Will probably do it when my money situation is handled. Been keeping an eye on that VasalGel shit but it's takin forever lol

@Andy @Blaximus
"“I lose track in all of the negativity.”

Blax, you’re the one attaching negative connotations to reality. I know that men here can and will find a way to make it work. That is what we are DOING. Sheesh."

This lol We're not sitting here emo weeping over the keyboard. We're just talking about what's happening. Untwist your panties…it's like quoting statistics in a discussion about black families/ghetto culture and someone going "OH YOU'RE RACIST OH GOD ALL THIS RACISM I CAN'T TAKE IT LET'S JUST KILL ALL BLACK PEOPLE THEN LIKE YOU GUYS WANT!!!" and it's like, no unclutch your pearls we're just discussing shit lol

The emotional pushback response is because this is all challenging your emotional beliefs that aren't based on anything but your gut and conditioning you may or may not realize you have. So it feels like negativity and an attack of some kind because we're questioning things that you just "know" to be "true" in your gut.

@Sun Wukong @stuffinbox
"Refusing to give up the only leverage you have as a man (“I’ll leave you for younger and hotter if you don’t cut this shit out”) is pretty Red Pill LTR advice in my view. Marriage is by definition the surrender of that option. If society will not have your back in marriage, instead openly telling you it will actively work against you if you get married, then you shouldn’t get married."

This. The reality is there's not "LTR game". There's no "MMSL game". There's no "DPA". There's not even "pLTR game" or "harem game" if you want to get deep. All of it boils down to "keep triggering her Hypergamy" at the core. That's it.

Now an LTR will add certain dynamics/restrictions/influences that you have to account for TO keep triggering that Hypergamy. And being married will add other (severe) restrictions. And society changing will add other restrictions (or make things easier, like how it's way easier to get casual sex now). And your mood and what life throws at you will affect your ability to DPA and DHV and run dread and bla bla bla

But at the end of the day all of those things are just different vehicles to drive in…but DRIVING itself is the same regardless. It's just that that DRIVING can be more difficult or need to be executed in slightly different ways or account for certain other dynamics if you choose to enter a vehicle with a flat tire, or a missing engine, or a cardboard box with wheels drawn on the side, etc VS a brand new ferrari

"You know you can have and raise kids without a marriage license, right? Humans did it that way for a lot longer than they’ve done it the way you’re suggesting."

Like I say, this shit is ENTRENCHED in people's minds. That's what I'm trying to put a spotlight on and demonstrate how conditioned those beliefs are and how they're just an illusion that we can work around or change or offer alternatives to.

@Anonymous Reader
"This is one of Rollo’s strengths, he doesn’t play “combox police”."

lol I always picture him sitting there reading these discussions on the edge of his seat squealing "REEEEEEEEEEE" and fucking DYING to jump in and lay the smack down (like the Great Looks Matter War of 2015) thinking "MUST NOT GET INTO ARGUMENTS MUST NOT GET INTO ARGUMENTS" and how it probably kills him to wait so long to formulate his one-liner responses or write up an article about the discussion lol We❀ you Rollo.

"There are a few slim advantages for the legal marriage."

Perfect, this is what I wanna hear! Let's look at the benefits. I'm not being an asshole, it's legitimately "ok what are the benefits and can we achieve them in other ways, and if not, if we weigh them against the risks are they worth it?" (ie – sure you get a tax break but what's the cost of the average divorce compared to that)

"It is widely recognized in different countries for stuff like tax benefits,"

My biggest comeback for the tax benefits is how much it ACTUALLY saves you compared to divorce costs. I don't know much about the actual numbers but my first impulse thought is I wouldn't want to legally noose myself and make it more difficult to keep triggering Hypergamy (increasing the chance of a divorce) etc to save a few thousand bucks a year. Like I'm okay with paying that extra in taxes for better odds at long-term stability and less consequence if it doesn't pan out. But that's my personal view.

A lot of things COULD end up costing more to do it the non-legal way…but then the question becomes: would you rather have a 50%+ chance of being divorce raped + alimony etc which could total up to who knows how high along with less ability to keep hand and prevent her leaving you etc, or would you rather pay like $10,000 or have a job that pays a few thousand less per year for the ability to walk away as easily as DisgruntledEarthling did and easier ability to keep hand?

"sometimes higher salaries directly (for some specific jobs),"

I know that office culture in general can still view it like "promote the married guy, he's stable and committed and a "good guy" because he's married, and he'll have kids etc that he has to work extra hard to support compared to the single guy who banged our secretary and might bail to travel the world in a couple years", if that's what you're talking about. I have a buddy in an office job who's pretending he has a long-term girlfriend specifically for that reason lol

But if it's not a legal thing like "pay a guy who shows us a marriage license a higher salary if he checkmarks the "married" box instead of "single"", then could you simply do everything you would do in a marriage WITHOUT legally marrying, to achieve that same higher salary/promotion? ie – have a wedding, wear a wedding ring, have her change her name ot your last name, live together, call her your wife, etc etc but simply not be legally married?

And COULD you checkmark the "married" box on an application if you're not legally married? Who would even question it? Though maybe it would make a difference in the accounting department for some kind of benefits thing. But then again, she'd probably have benefits from her own job and/or entrepreneurs presumably have some kind of benefits system they use that might be an option.

"automatic recognition of offspring (which can obviously backfire if you are cucked),"

lol. This would be one of those "how much would it cost and how much work would it actually be to just manually have your offspring recognized. Like how often does that REALLY come up and could it be dealt with with a couple days of filling out some legal forms or dropping by a place to show a birth certificate or something which is inconvenient but not that big a deal?

"and in case of death for inheritance etc. Some of these can be obtained through specific arrangements, but I doubt all of them can"

That's the question. How many of those things need to be done and how many can be done through other means? That's stuff we should look at. What if 90% of them could be handled for a few thousand bucks by a lawyer and the other 10% just meant taking the occasional day off work or filling out a couple forms here and there?

"and the legal marriage automatically does it saving a bunch of work."

Maybe DisgruntledEarthling can shed some light on how much work it was to handle a lot of the stuff he handled without a legal marriage contract? IS it a bunch or work, or does it just SEEM like a bunch of work, and/or is it work that we could put a price tag on to hire someone to handle for us (ie – "if you DON'T want to get legally married, you'll have to spend about $2000 on a lawyer who can handle these things for you if you don't want to do them yourself")?

"Another point is that the legal marriage benefits the lowest earner, so if your wife is working and you go unemployed for a while you could benefit financially for a bit. This is quite the corner case because apparently the odds are that she will likely branch swing relatively quickly in such a situation (and try to make you miserable until she does, most likely)."

lol ya, I'm talking more for the majority of men out there. Like what plan can we offer all these red pill guys in all the red pill communities as they expand and influence the next generations. Maybe the red pill would be a lot more appealing to blue pill people to check out if we had a solution that said "look we won't JUST get you poon, we can get you a happy life with 2.5 kids and a white pickett fence that your blue pill approach isn't going to get you"

"Previously I asked if there were good strategies for “demoting” a legal marriage to LTR. You said you don’t see how I wouldn’t get lots of drama."

Ya. Like I said before, going from casual to committed is her GAINING something. Demoting is her LOSING something, which, if she hasn't EARNED a demotion through bad behavior, is probably going to be drama-city. Now if she cheated on you or something where you had justifiable grounds (in her mind) to demote her, there'd still be drama but probably not as MUCH as just kicking the puppydog out of the blue.

This is why I want to get this knowledge out to men early…'cause say someone does this whole crazy "don't legally marry her" thing I'm pitching. He can ALWAYS at some point down the road if he decides it'll help him somehow, pull out "okay let's get legally married now", like 10 years in, if he wants. But once you do that there's no going back.

So why not TRY it withOUT the legal contract first? A free 30-day trial before you make a purchase lol Set a pLTR arrangement, have separate finances and legal paperwork for everything, have kids with her, get a house together, raise the kids for a few years still with separate financial shit, and THEN take stock and look at "do I NEED to sign a legal contract or is this actually working pretty good as it is?" and make the decision THEN.

"If she wants to stick around, as far as I’m concerned this is our business and I wouldn’t even tell family about it (but there is a good likelihood she would to try to social pressure me, maybe not)."

Can't remember all the details of your situation, but I would pull an Andy and pitch toward the general direction of you having side poon VS just yanking the divorce plug or hard ultimatums right off the bat. Maybe Andy can chime in here or someone remembers where he had his talks with his wife and found out she was actually pretty cool with the idea of him possibly having side poon. You might find that you're in a similar situation where she actually wouldn't mind that much and not have to go any of these hardcore routes.

"There isn’t a way to frame this legal divorce as being something good for her (it just isn’t),"

Again I can't remember the details or if you have kids or your ages etc but do you HAVE to divorce her to get what you want? Like if you just want side poon coudl you simply stay with her but have some girls on the side? Do you NEED to have the whole house to yourself and have her out of there etc? Just stuff to ask yourself before you drop a nuke. Don't make emotional decisions on this, there's no real rush for it, spill your guts here for a while and get some feedback from everyone like Andy did.

"we forget the disaster scenarios, but they are common. About 3/4 of my friends have daughters who don’t sleep under the same roof as them"

Now if that 3/4 of your friends had been told up front "look, there's a solid chance that your wife will want to stray at some point, for various reasons and you'll probably end up in a custody battle (that hopefully doesn't get ugly, but it might)…that's just how things work now. Don't legally tie yourself to her, keep your finances separate or hide some money away, and gather evidence constantly from day one that you are the best caregiver possible for the kids to convince a family court and as sneaky as it is collect (or create) evidence on her that shows that she's NOT a good caregiver so that if it DOES come to that, you'll get at LEAST 50% custody if not full custody of your kids because that'll be best for you AND the kids since single mom statistics show that the kids they raise are fucking nightmares.

I mean, how much better a situation would they be in if someone had give them a nice simple plan like that?

"You run a solid 50 or 80% chance of bringing a daughter into the world who will have in-house badboy (or at least ‘other dude’) right down the hall, while you’re trying to fall asleep in some distant neighborhood or state. It’s beyond imagining for me."

Shit would be a nightmare to me.

"If there is ANY remote chance that someone could legally take my children from me then I don’t make the investment of bringing them into the world. The fact that it is LIKELY that I will lose my children makes it an emotional investment that is fully insane."

Right, and again the stats are getting worse not better. So what I'm bringing up is what could we do to help reduce the ability of you losing access to your kids so that you have more of a guarantee that you'll be able to be in their lives, ideally full-time, to raise them. 'cause society's answer for that right now is "ehh, get legally tied to her and then roll the dice and hope you have a unicorn". That answer isn't good enough and it's part of why we see MGTOW, MRA, PUAs-in-their-40s etc No one has a solution yet. That will have effects on society long-term after we're gone.

"The fact that the culture/gov’t actively incentivizes, legislates and glamorizes kidnapping has me very comfortably sitting this one out. I can easily remain shallow, superficial, sensual. I only dive into that narrative and its extraordinary commitment and emotion if the culture/laws have me locked in and protected in that role. It’s the opposite. So…Hand me that passport and I’m off to see the wizard."

See in a way you're the exact guy I'm bringing this up for. You'd probably LIKE to have kids at some point, but you can't see a clear safe low-risk path to doing it…all you can see is the opposite because the plan being given to you results in 3/4 of your friends living a nightmare. So you'll just check out of the game.

We know so much about attraction and chick-brains now and it's easier than ever to find out information on the internet and actually calculate legal costs for shit etc, there HAVE to be solutions to some of this that would allow a normal guy like you to go "okay, I like these odds better, I'll give this a chance and reproduce".

Fuck me, there's like a million more replies to go through and I'm already 500 pages in lol I'm takin a break. Thanks to everyone who's participated so far, this is the kind of thing I wanted to get people talking about back in the Commitment article when I posted that monogamy is dead. Like, now we're actually objectively looking at this shit (for the most part) and pulling back the curtain on marriage/monogamy and really looking at the dynamics of it.

It may be a negative discussion but I have positive hope for potential solutions to be found…it's just that we can't FIND those solutions when we're too emotionally invested and pearl-clutching to even question tradition and feels.

Like I said before, this is the only red pill community that really has a good cross-section of guys from PUAs to old guys who have successful long-term marriages, and that actually care about the 2-parent stable household environment to raise kids in (and isn't full of a bunch of race-baiting and politics and trolling and shit lol). Other communities are full of young guys who aren't thinking more than a few years ahead, or old guys who are in a full mental masturbation circle-jerk about how impossible the situation is, or purple pill guys who act red pill but are still going to go follow the traditional route when they find their unicorn they still think is out there that'll buffer them from disaster.

If there are answers to be found on this subject, this is where they're going to start. Rollo's articles/books on red pill parenting will be useless if we can't find a way to keep guys in their children's lives long-term with better success rates than we're currently seeing and the trends will continue to follow.

on September 8th, 2016 at 4:55 pm
Original Link

@Sun Wukong
“But even if your Game is as tight as YaReally’s, try interesting a modern young chick in commitment. Go ahead. You’ll be in for a shock. A woman in her prime years is so high on a never ending validation train that she’s sure it will never end. Why should she commit? There’s no incentive to do so. She always branch swings to better, and better is always available before she’s even tired of what she’s got.”

This. See Blax you hear them say “I wouldn’t give up my social media for that dream guy”, but you don’t hear WHY they won’t. The “why” is what we’re up against. They are conditioned to think they will never hit the wall, Amy Schumer at 45 gets the rich doctor in the end, they have endless offers of commitment and monkey branch higher and higher up the tree in their prime.

I have fuckbuddies who’ve disqualified doctors and lawyers and rich jacked 6-pack dudes for like one or two errors. My favorite was one who disqualified a doctor because the area of medicine he picked to specialize in wasn’t EXCITING ENOUGH. So she interpreted that as him not having enough ambition. A fucking DOCTOR and she turned him down for such a silly reason. But why wouldn’t she? She has dates lined up anytime she wants with guys as high value or higher than him around the block whenever she wants. If she takes care of herself the attention train won’t stop till 35+. Why would she want to limit her Hypergamous options by settling in her early 20s?

That’s why those girls look at you funny when you suggest giving up social media. They can’t comprehend any reason TO. It doesn’t compute.

That’s not negativity. That’s just understanding what we’re dealing with and how best to deal with it.

“I am fully aware of how society is fucked up. For me, this HAS ALWAYS been so from birth. Society has been an odd thing where people gyrate and look for the next ridiculous hoop to invent.”

Other men weren’t raised with your insight. They were raised in the bubble of social conditioning convincing them society wasn’t what it was. We’re educating them. If it bothers you, you have a scroll wheel. But we don’t stop teaching children how to do math just because you know how to do math…”OKAY EVERYONE QUIT TALKING ABOUT MATH, BLAXIMUS KNOWS MATH SO THAT MEANS EVERY OTHER GUY MUST KNOW IT, HE’S UPSET WITH ALL THIS MATH TALK, WHO CARES THAT 99% OF EVERYONE ELSE CAN’T DO MATH YET, BLAXIMUS KNOWS, SHUT IT ALL DOWN AND LET’S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING HE APPROVES OF!!” Try putting yourself in other men’s shoes lol

“Now, what are you going to do?”

That’s what we’re discussing.

“This leads to a lot out of wedlock babies. It isn’t clear that scandinavian men avoid the problems of marriage by using these arrangements. Committed relationships w/ kids have issues and changing the names used doesn’t fix them.”

My argument isn’t that not legally marrying will guarantee you won’t still have problems. Just that:

1) being able to walk away easier means more likelihood of keeping attraction easier (we know this based on a ton of field testing like MMSL, dread game, jealousy/preselection/etc etc)

and that 2) if it DOES end up with the same problems a legal marriage had and you still end up splitting, at least you didn’t ALSO get divorce-raped and have to pay lifetime alimony for her to buy new lingerie for her badboy boyfriend who she won’t let marry her because then you’ll be free of alimony and she doesn’t care that you’re working 2 jobs living in your car.

That’s all. A non-legal marriage can fail just like a legal marriage, but at least a non-legal marriage follows attraction principles better and the consequences if it does fall apart won’t be anywhere near as severe for the man. (plus he’ll have an easier time getting back into the single life because he didn’t stop banging hotties on the side lol)

“Paul Janka got married”

Even a lot of PUAs and heavily red pill guys still don’t have an endgame plan beyond “get married I guess?” That’s why I’d like to raise the discussion. Tyler is trying something crazy, Adam Lyons is trying something crazy, Blackdragon has tried some crazy shit, but these are all huge gambles that take years to fully field-test and most guys will fall into their social conditioning to just go along with getting married to not lose the girl.

@Anonymous Reader
“When I wrote that provider game is dead, I immediately reflected that the man I know with multiple children is the sole provider for his family.”

How old is his wife? And how hot is she? And has she been using social media etc since she was in her early teens? Not an attack, these are just important factors in these discussions.

“So in his case, provider game is not dead. However, his immediate family is wrapped in mulitple layers of fairly traditional cultural structures – extended family nearby, a church that provides a lot of social outlets, and so forth.” “That is, there will be social pressures to remain married and keep any affairs out of sight.”

Right, a situation like THAT is similar to the “old days” where she had more social conditioning and societal influences like religious/social shaming and masculine/feminine roles etc Like, that’s AWESOME.

But those communities are getting less and less common. The average random dude in New York isn’t meeting girls like that or living in a situation like that himself. And these influences will eventually sink their tentacles into those communities too, just like EE/Asia chicks are starting to become more like North American chicks.

The reality is we can’t send 90% of men out into SJF’s farm to all marry his daughters lol

“Colleges will pass 60 / 40 women / men on the way to 70 / 30, and feminists will say that equality is getting “closer””

Reminder to you guys who sarge, old and young: find a way to move to a college/university city ASAP lol

“Not quite sure how the FI will deal with pLTR, most likely guess is something like the law in Vancouver, BC where cohabitation for a specified period of time = marriage, full stop. So any man who doesn’t want to be “married” in the 2.0 sense will have to keep an eye on the calendar. One response to that would be cumulative: “John, you lived with Jane a total of 24 months over the last 5 years so you two are married if she wants it”, maybe.”

I suspect the common law will ramp up in response. But two solutions so far: 1) you can, in advance, legally write up a document together that states you don’t want to be common law married that’ll prevent it…it’s the couples who don’t take pro-active prevention of it that get sucked into it, and 2) you can break up a month before the cutoff date and then maybe get back together etc not sure but there has to be some kind of loopholes to exploit. That and not moving in together etc works fine for just dating, but I think for an actual long term relationship with kids you would have to do the legal “no thanks” route.

But like, how many guys even know that’s an OPTION right now? Big Al didn’t, his reason for getting married was “well they’ll just common law me anyway so I might as well”. And that’s a guy visiting red pill sites who said he “did his homework”. Now the average guy…?

“Women are keeping all their options open at all times.”

This is my point. Society has morphed to where you can’t tell her to delete her Facebook or you’re abusive/overreacting/controlling/jealous/insecure etc so she can continue to gather orbiters and keep her options open, while YOU are shamed into giving up your options (and often do so in good faith, thinking you’re entering a monogamous relationship and then feeling like something is off when you’re working on the computer and she’s sitting on the couch lol’ing at txts on her phone).

“Older guys aren’t out of touch with technology, per se; they just don’t have the reference of EXCLUSIVELY dating/Gaming/having LTR’s with women that are fully immersed in this technology, because it came onto the scene long after their time.”

Yup. I don’t like self-surveys, we all know that, and Sentient threw a fuss about me accepting Blax’s self-surveying. But he doesn’t get that we HAVE tons of guys who’ve been trying to get LTRs to work these days and they’re all reporting this shit. Blax’s self-surveying is about the best we’re going to get for field-testing out of the old guys around here, but those of us infield and with friends infield etc are all noticing these trends because ya you “hang out with kids a lot”, but us guys in red pill communities reporting this stuff are the ones having a girl move into our apartment or dating her “monogamously” for a few years out of the NRE stage and trying to get them to tone down the social media shit etc

“And it is a game changer. Can any self-respecting man knowingly restrict his options in 2016 and beyond, with the knowledge that any woman he restricts his options for will never, ever reciprocate? That she will, in fact, keep her options wide open?”

This was the point of my monogamy is dead post. I want guys to understand this. They are NOT being offered monogamy even if it’s labelled that way and even if the girl THINKS she’s offering monogamy. She’s not, she’s keeping her options open because of technology and working with men and having men in her social circles. ESPECIALLY if she’s a <25yo 8+/10 (because we aren't trying to help guys settle down with trolls lol).

"And as Ya pointed out, women consider long-distance, online affairs as REAL OPTIONS, compared to men who generally don’t unless they’re crazy desperate and delusional."

This. They legitimately think those guys are options because they ARE. That guy will either be rich enough (since she's going to branch upward in her flirting) to fly to her or fly her to him, or thirsty enough to find the money to do that, and she's had a lifetime of guys going out of their way to chase her or give her stuff so it's totally normal to her that a guy would fly her to his country to chase a romantic little connection. If I had what looked like an HB10 in her photos ('cause the guys only put up highlight reel profiles and put on a front that they're offering the world etc) offering me a flight to visit her, I'd sure as shit take it lol Especially if my wife has gotten fat or I'm bored or mad at her.

"Women are not going to get off of Facebook, or Twitter, or Instagram, or Snapchat, or whatever else is out there."

Those things have literally exponentially increased her hindbrain's ability to achieve its biological goals. They're like the helmet Professor-X puts on that takes his normal psychic powers and enhances them to read the minds of everyone in the entire world. Why would Professor-X give that shit up?? lol

"Keeping that in mind, it’s hard for me to even imagine a man “cheating” nowadays. How can a man be capable of “cheating” if he’s not even getting 100% commitment from a woman in the first place? What is there to cheat on?"

Exactly. The only thing he's breaking is his word that he gave in a false lopsided contract under good faith not understanding the terms of the contract. I say let's make them aware of this en masse so that they stop signing that false contract blind.

"At the very least, men in “committed” relationships should be heavily utilizing Dread, which is, guess what? An exact parallel to what women are doing with social media."

Yup. Even me offering a girl a one-sided pLTR where I'm allowed to bang other girls and she's not, it's still only EVEN, because I can't make her get rid of all her social media and male friends and quit her job with male coworkers, so as "abusive" as my offer IS, it's still just EVENING the playing field with us, because she will still have her options brewing in the background for an emergency.

"If you’re not going to fuck other women, at least sexually escalate to the point where there’s a constant air of slight sexual tension with them. And with as many women as possible."

A lot of guys (including yourself probably) won't do this or even FLIRT with other girls because they've signed a lopsided false contract that makes them feel shamed/guilty for flirting…when their girl is doing EXACTLY THAT on her phone, no fucks given. And that same girl will shame him if she catches him, while disregarding her own flirting with orbiters as "oh it's just harmless"

This is not what "monogamy" was supposed to look like lol The label means nothing now. Monogamy is dead.

"What Rollo is doing, for example, is the male version of social media: being around real, live women and entertaining all of them as potential options. It doesn’t mean he’s going to utilize any of those options. But he COULD."

Right, and that's PERFECT. Rollo has a GREAT lifestyle for keeping a slight tinge of passive dread going, he's said himself that he gets good sex when he has to go do these bottle model events and shit.

But Joe the Cop and Bob the Accountant and Pete the Plumber don't have glamourous jobs like that. And they enter a monogamous contract and feel shameful flirting with other girls. Which trickles down into them slowly losing their charisma and belief that they can get other options, etc etc

"I think it’s pretty clear DPA needs some reducing."

lolol thanks for taking apart the DPA stuff. That's why I said earlier ok what are the steps for doing those things. Because those steps will just be the steps PUA lays out. So why not just call that stuff what it's already labelled in PUA. Needless re-labelling and trying to metaphorically trademark some shit but just makes shit confusing for newbies.

"My “rebuttals” were ridiculous, because I don’t disagree with how you recommend DPA as frame or hand, but defined as above, are not specific or “actionable”."

This. DPA is great, but 1) it's not an actionable plan which is what men need to learn otherwise it's the same as "just be cool bro" or "just be attractive" which tells guys nothing, and 2) it's already taught as other labels in the PUA community. No reason to muddy the waters.

@Anonymous Reader @sfer
"The issue of “out of wedlock” about paternity (which doesn’t matter in the modern world, the “father” is whoever she says) and stability for raising children. The stability part is clearly an issue."

With regards to Scandinavian shit, if they're fully entrenched in feminist stuff then it stands to reason that even without legal marriage, their ability to be like Blaximus or execute DPA or have good "LTR game" or dread game or red pill shit etc etc is probably pretty compromised…so the failure rate of their relationships may still be high just because they may be more of a pussy blue pill culture in general under those influences lol

"House husbands are becoming more common, and that fits in nicely with open hypergamy."

This. Hubby at home and she goes off to her HR job at an air conditioned office surrounded by Mad Men wannabes in suits who all flirt with her because their wives aren't there (then ignore her at the office christmas party when their wives are around lol). Nice little office fling with a guy who looks similar enough to her beta house hubby that he won't dare to accuse her of being a SLUTTY WHORE by DARING to request a paternity test, and she's set.

Probably just a coincidence how many taken girls who try to rawdog it with me's boyfriends/husbands I see look similar to me (hair color, race, general look, etc). πŸ˜›

"Maybe 20 years down the line if men are divorcing their higher-earning wives for cash and prizes, we’ll suddenly see a new found interest in reforming family court."

It's never an issue until it directly affects women. I'm hoping the gay marriage stuff helps boost that along. One guy getting divorce-raped by another guy or a girl getting divorce-raped by another girl, they're gonna raise a lot more stink than the straight guy getting divorce-raped by his wife and just taking it because he's supposed to.

And even then I figure they'll go with more punishment before they try more reward. Like MGTOWs predicting a "single guy tax" etc

"*Performing the appropriate skill building drills, in a deliberate, focused manner."

To relate the analogy back to pickup: this is why we don't tell guys just go out and party and see what happens. We give them specific skill-building drills and have them focus on aspects of game and write their Field Reports so we can diagnose them and help tweak their shit etc We're sending them out to focus on practicing being alpha long enough that they become alpha, not to learn how to fake it really well.

But as Corey Worthington etc show, even being an alpha doesn't guarantee you'll STAY an alpha.

"In another sense, becoming a guy like Rollo has ALWAYS been supremely difficult, and WILL ALWAYS be supremely difficult, and nothing has changed in that aspect since the dawn of humanity."

And Rollo is great. But the bottle models at his events have access via social media to guys that make Rollo look like just some scrub. They didn't have that 20+ years ago, not to the degree they do now. That doesn't mean they won't be attracted to him, but it means that him getting them to reject all those options for 40+ years, even as pimp as he IS, is going to be a tricky tightrope to walk at BEST, for a guy as successful as Rollo.

So what chance does Joe Accountant have trying to play that "who's got a bigger dick and better 6-pack and more money in the bank" game, to keep that smokin hot <25yo 8+/10? He MIGHT do it, but the odds are very much stacked against him for pulling it off…so don't legally marry or enter a relationship where your attraction is hampered (like not having other girls to bang).

"But once that is through your head, and you really get that, it’s more productive to focus energy in a positive, constructive direction: i.e., toward being the absolute best man you can be."

Definitely. And just don't sign a legal contract or promise monogamy to a girl who has social media, works in a male space, or has male friends in her social circles, while working toward being the absolute best man you can be.

But right now, men don't KNOW this shit. That's why a red pill guy like Big Al is getting married without even looking into commonlaw shit. That's why half the red pill community still thinks it's going to find a unicorn to settle down with etc etc

@Sun Wukong @Blaximus
"See this is where I disagree and probably why I don’t see negativity where you do. Not in terms of “society is fucked up”. It simply is what it is."

This. This isn't a negative situation to me. This is a DIFFICULT situation, but that's different. This isn't something bleak and unsolvable, it's just the rules of the game are not currently in favor of the old strategy, so it's time for a new strategy.

This isn't any more negative than if they changed some rules in baseball so that a set of old plays everyone used to rely on no longer worked. It's just acknowledging the rules of the game have changed and we have to come up with new strategies.

There's no judgement call on whether it's good or bad. It just is what it is.

You interpret it as negative because it's the death of something you believe in with your feels. We don't have that same conditioned attachment (or don't anymore) so we aren't viewing this as negative.

PUA from day one has never been about changing society or crying and being negative…it's been about "what are the rules laid out in front of us, and how can we excel within them or loophole around them to win this?" Whenever the field changed, we adapted to the changes, and will continue to do so, like in discussions like this. We don't cry about the field or make judgements about it, it just is what it is and we can extrapolate and project trends we're seeing to prepare for future adaptation.

"Marriage is just a poor choice for men right now. It conveys absolutely no tangible benefits that can’t be had outside of it while placing many damaging constraints on them. As a rational decision it makes sense for men to simply avoid it. So that’s part of what I do about it: avoid marriage and advise other men against it."

No one since I asked has provided any benefit from marriage that you can't get without the legal-contract except the stuff about legal paperwork and I'd still like to hear from DisgruntledEarthling what sort of effort/costs were involved in handling a lot of that stuff. And we need to research more into that to quantify the costs/benefits.

But otherwise no one has made an actual argument FOR marriage or agreeing to monogamy. It's important to stress that.

"’sex on tap’ is actually pretty cool though…lol…and efficient…plus there’s the whole ‘no STDs to worry about’ thing in play…lol. but mostly those things are all available with pLTRs in your favor… "

Right. We know from the deadbedrooms guys that legal marriage doesn't guarantee the "sex on tap" thing. Hell, I probably have easier access to regular pussy with a handful of fuckbuddies (bringing their A-game sexually) than a lot of married guys getting their yearly duty-sex birthday blowjob get.

And the STD risk isn't THAT significant if you wrap your shit up, and a guy who's wife cheats on a girls' night out, vacation, etc can bring home an STD too, so again legal marriage doesn't prevent that.

There's blowing your load inside her but a legally married wife can forget her birth control or whatever and a guy who's had a vasectomy can do that with any girl and you could be with a girl who you're WITH but not legally married under a contract to and she can be on birth control for you to blow your load in her etc etc So even that doesn't hold up as a "you need legal marriage to get access to this benefit" point.

I'm deconstructing these "benefits of marriage/monogamy" things because I want to show that they are socially conditioned myths and illusions.

"and i understand what Sentient is advocating too…lol… he doesn’t want men to ‘miss out’ on the possibility of having a solid family life experience, just bc some dude on the interwebs says legal marriage is gonna get you divorce raped in the future"

Again I have to point out that if you don't sign the legal paper and you simply choose NOT to exercise your "slaying other poon" option that you have available to you (except on trips out of town etc), you will have the exact same "solid family life experience" that Sentient has. With a wedding and kids and white picket fence and everything if you like.

"the benefits of ‘monogamy’ are mostly on the non-sex side… where you live most of your life…lol…"

Ok let's go through them:

"having a fun companion around all the time is kind of cool"

There's no reason you can't have that by living with a woman you don't legally marry and don't promise monogamous commitment to (a one-sided pLTR in your favor).

"and especially wrt to raising kids (as shown by all those ‘two-parents are best’ studies)…"

Yup, agreed. But no reason you can't have a fun companion around to raise kids with living together in a house with a white pickett fence without signing a legal document or promising monogamy.

"and bc you actually WANT a girl that is a good mom/companion bc that gives your kids the best chance in life… and that’s the best thing for your kids… to have that feeling of safety and security…"

I agree completely. None of that requires a legal contract or agreeing to monogamy.

"which is where the majority benefit of ‘monogamy’ comes from"

lol but none of those things require monogamy and monogamy doesn't guarantee any of those things.

"bc IF you have a pLTR, there is always the ‘threat’ of ‘the family’ getting split apart (which is where the girl’s arousal/dread comes from…lol…and which is always in conflict with kids’ ‘security’ on some level)… "

The kids don't have to know a thing. Are Sentient's kids damaged because he fucks around on his own time away from home? Nope. He can have the same arrangement as far as the kids are concerned without legal marriage or a monogamous commitment (and it would be less "cheaty"). Are Rollo's kids damaged because he does bottle service with hot models he could cheat with but chooses not to? Nope, and he could do exactly that without a legal marriage contract or monogamous agreement, he could simply just choose NOT to bang them.

It should have zero effect on the kids except that they see their mom putting in effort to please their dad.

"from the kids’ perspective that’s what they see (less stability), bc of THEIR social conditioning telling them that if dad has a gf (or 3…lol), then your parents are going to split up…"

Just be discreet. I doubt Sentient brought that stripper home to introduce to his kids. I doubt if Rollo was banging those bottle models, he'd bring them home to introduce them to his kids as his girlfriends.

There's no reason for the kids to have any idea. Daddy and Mommy love eachother and when Daddy's away on business or whatever Daddy does whatever Daddy does, kids don't need to know anything just like they don't need to know.

"BUT kids are resilient…lol… so, there is a way to minimize that effect, we just haven’t gotten there yet, bc we are still ‘negotiating’ the playing field…lol…"

And that's part of what we should be discussing. LOTS of "non-traditional couples" have talks with their kids about this stuff. Like the poly community has probably got these discussions down pat into routines that we could be applying as a fallback plan if the discretion doesn't work etc

"you trust your game to get her buy-in on getting pregnant/having the kid (bc you WILL need solid game for her to see ‘baby’ as a better choice than ‘career’/’keeping my options open’ (even if she keeps working…and especially if she is <25…)"

I think this will be the big one to deal with. I'm leaning towards speeding up the vetting process and getting her preggers while still IN the NRE stage…in the NRE stage she's going to be more open to stuff like that. Once she LEAVES the NRE stage, she's not likely to sacrifice her career, but IN the NRE stage she might be open to it. Which means teaching guys how to speed up the vetting process instead of spending 8 years with the girl before finally having kids, when you're 4 years out of the NRE stage and she's bored with you and the relationship and in her early 30s thinking she has one more chance to find that rich doctor on Tinder.

"don't forget the paternity test"

lol mandatory.

"once the toddler gets to pre-school, you either get her pregnant again or take a break"

This will be one of the key moments for sure. Once the drama of the baby wears off, she's got no job (or a simple job) and at home bored and the NRE is wearing off etc

"either way, expect her to shit test harder… bc she has to double-up on her 'sureness' of your alpha-tude to have another kid with you/stay with you…"

Agreed, probably a likely scenario. Plus she's going to be approaching 30 and getting a sense that the wall is coming, where it's not too late to ditch you to monkey branch up to a rich doctor to have her second kid with. After she passes the wall, she's probably a lot less likely to have and chase options, but hitting 30 will be that key "I have one more chance for a baby in me probably, and I have a lot of orbiters who love a hot 28-32yo and are promising me the world still…is this guy I'm with REALLY the best I can do or is it better to trade up while I can? Do I take the prize or see what's inside the mystery box?"

"also, just expect her to 'leave' at some point… probably for an orbiter… then, come back (like scray pointed out…)."

I think this is the biggest thing I wanted to get across. We may have to accept that with the amount of temptations they have now, and how they need to interact with men to determine whether they're legit alphas or not, and how good other men have gotten at FAKING that they're alpha in their profiles and learning some basic game out of Maxim and shit, she may NEED to go explore a few options.

Once she goes on a few shitty Tinder dates, has a few fun girls' nights out that end with her disappointed or drunk and lonely, spends a few nights missing you with you not responding to her texts, compares other guys to you and, since you're freezing her out AND she knows you're probably banging other hotter younger girls, your value stays high to her…

After all that, she's probably going to come back. Now the question is, is it better to wait for her to get so bored of you that she initiates the eat pray love break and those other guys seem more appealing? Or, as crazy as it sounds, would it be strategically better odds-wise to dump HER the second you sense her looking at other branches, forcing her out into loneliness before she was prepared with another branch lined up and fully bored of the relationship, and she's still got attraction for you (taking away the toy she still likes VS waiting for her to get bored of it and discard it)?

"fifth, take her back… or not…"

This'll be key. Each guy will vary on this one. But there are ways to have discussions etc where you can say "look I'm mad at you right now but I still care about you and I just need a break right now…but if you have sex with another guy I don't think I can ever take you back" and try to stack the odds in your favor that she won't just go suck a bunch of dicks raw lol You can't guarantee it, but if you're dumping her while she's still attracted enough, you might be able to influence her enough to not go on a sex rampage for a few months till you take her back and have your movie moment "I miss you babe" get back together (giving her a nice big emotional rollercoaster story to tell people about True Love).

Buuut, she might also go off the rails especially if you let her get bored and then SHE initiates the eat pray love, and you may not be able to look at her the same way or take her back depending on your personal views/feelings. That has to be taken into consideration for each guy.

Also THIS is something the kids will definitely notice lol So there's that to factor into it too. Say it's just a 3 month freezeout break…a kid in preschool would probably not even remember that shit happened, I can barely remember anything before age like 5. OR the flip side a kid who's 10+ might be old enough to handle it (though he'd ask WAY more questions).

So maybe the timeline is something like:

Learn game and play the field and work on your career and SMV etc till you're 30+ bare minimum, then vett girls fast in their early 20s, if you survive a year or two dating/vetting a hot 21yo in a pLTR situ, fuck it, while you're in the NRE stage knock her up ("by accident" even) and move in together without legally marrying or being monogamous (baby I told you from the start that I'm not wired that way but I love you and will be there for you and our kid bla bla).

When she's around 25-26, before the kid is going to be too affected by it, pick a reason to dump her (tell her it's because of her addiction to social media/orbiters lol so she may do that shit less when you get back together) and dump her with a hard freezeout for 3 months. She'll probably be too sad to go blow a football team, she'll go on a couple sad Tinder dates and be miserable and miss you and compare you to them. Then tell her you miss her and get back with her…the kid is young enough to just remember some vacation he spend with mommy where she was sad a lot lol

Now you've got a 27yo who's learned that life without you sucks ass, and because you've taken her back she's back into the NRE stage again…celebrate getting back together by knocking her up again lol Now she's kept busy till the next kid is in preschool while the first kid his hitting puberty and dealing with all THAT drama and she's too busy to realize she's passing the wall or bother with social media all day.

In the end when the second kid is in school she's around 32yo and been through an emotional rollercoaster with you and got 2 kids and you've presumably stayed awesome all that time because you were banging poon on the side (or choosing not to, whatever) and the dread kept her staying attractive for you so you're motivated to be attractive for her etc etc and maybe just maaaaaybe you've got a pretty decent shot at this whole thing.

All without legal marriage or promising her monogamy (whether you choose to act on those options or not).

Anyone got any thoughts on a plan like that?

on September 8th, 2016 at 7:05 pm
Original Link

“(side note all of them are UMC and are used to being around intelligent people, so that is where the quality if intelligence comes from–it is a proxy for ability, but I digress.)”

Honest question because you always wave your UMC dick around like it has any relevance: what types of jobs/education/lifestyle class do you think the girls we’re casually fucking have? Are you picturing us banging a bunch of McDonald’s employees that sleep on mattresses after running away from broken falling apart homes? lol I’ve fucked lots of UMC girls with rich parents and neurowhatever science majors/degrees and med/law/pharma/etc students/professionals and shit. They’re still dumb compared to men because they’re girls but like, what exactly do you think we’re fucking when we go to the same EDM festivals as your daughters? lol

““Do the parents say, sure no problem it’s a new world disorder and marriage is broken anyway, you don’t need to get married to raise my grandchildren?””

Ideally lol and then they could teach their daughter about choosing your partner daily instead of being obligated to choose them and locking them into a contract to negotiate desire and how silly that notion is and how if you have to contractually threaten someone to stay with you it’s probably not a great relationship to begin with…But they won’t tell her that lol

“How should the four old married guys proceed to counsel their daughter?”

Well we know daughters never go against their father’s wishes when they’re swept up in emotion, that’s not a trope for a reason at all lol

But in all seriousness: what your story boils down to is basically advising your daughter to refuse to settle for less than what’s best for her.

Cool. But so why the pushback when we advice young men to refuse to settle for less than what’s best for THEM?

At the end of the day your daughter has an expiry date. She needs a man more than a man needs her. You can advise her to turn down the offer of a man who will 99% take care of her in a perfect relationship but just not sign that legal contract, and hope that super-Blax rides up to marry her. But in that Mexican Standoff the guy is risking nothing compared to her.

Lets propose the exact same scenario back to you, but make your daughter 32 years old.

Still single, no kids or anything yet, because you haven’t approved of a man yet. And that same guy comes along offering her the same deal, in that intelligent and well-versed way.

What would your advice to her be? She’s got a few years before the chance of her kids having down syndrome etc will start increasing exponentially and less suitors are knocking on her door. Does that change what you and the 4 old men would advise her with that same man offering that same deal?

“Right. And getting back to a bit of earlier stuff, that goes for an unlicensed marriage as well. A woman changing her surname is no big legal deal. In most Anglo places all she has to do is make the proper notifications that her name has been changed, just as if the marriage had been licensed. A women is expected to change her surname at least once. It’s SOP.

So long as there is no intent to defraud there will be no illegality involved.”

Quoting this to make sure it’s seen. So again, another “benefit” to marriage that doesn’t require legal marriage. Although I don’t know anything about the legal issues if it came down to government forms or something you had to fill out, without a legal marriage contract.

@Sun Wukong
“The majority of chicks I’ve met who babble about marriage don’t really want a marriage. They want a wedding. They’ve never given a thought to what a successful marriage would actually take, probably because society already has them covered.”

lolol THIS.

“Now in the real world what happens is she gets the advice to not take that deal because girls good, boys bad. The guy is defaulted to being an asshole (even if he’s a great guy) for insisting on avoiding marriage. Succumbing to the male sexual strategy is succumbing to toxic masculinity and therefore evil. She bails on him as she’s got a million options waiting in the wings thirsty enough to accept an advantage to her arrangement. She marries one of her options after The Wall, stays in touch with the original guy, and maybe swings back around to fuck him occasionally. She has her cake and eats it too.”

That escalated quickly lol but not an inaccurate guess.

“As such, she can’t afford her Beta coming to understand that his SMV is well above her own so she tosses him softball shit tests to make him feel like he’s in frame control.”

Insights like this are why I❀ you.

"A lot of men (Betas) never realize their SMV peak years, but more so they fail to acknowledge that, by that time, they generally far outclass their spouse’s SMV and her own decline began 10 years before he reached his."

Yup, the goal of society is to get men who WILL have high-SMV, locked down with girls who will be losing their SMV before the guys achieve that high-SMV so that when they achieve it they're already providing for a girl who's losing hers.

My buddies and I constantly joke about how "why didn't anyone tell us how many girls would want to suck our dicks back when we were students that couldn't get laid to save our lives?!" We were all blindsided by how much girls want us in our 30s. Especially as cool social outgoing guys with no divorce/kids/etc baggage.

That's also part of why I almost CAN'T mack girls in their late 20s early 30s…because those girls see me as a massive prize compared to the other guys my age that they're used to who all come with a ton of baggage. The 25yo’s see “potential husband material if I can hook him” and I get more bullshit drama to deal with.

But nobody told me I would have ANY SMV back when I was a chode in my early 20s lol

“I only advise against Fear and Hype as part of the equation in men’s decisions.”

Is a CEO “afraid” and “hyping” when he looks at a lopsided business contract and decides not to sign it because it comes with a statistically increasing probability of destroying the company? No, he’s just being smart. He doesn’t sit there going “I’m so saaad about this this suuuuck waaayyy NO COMPANIES CAN EVER SUCCEED” like you’re implying. He’s just dealing with the numbers and making smart strategic decisions.

“There are ZERO guarantees either way. Commenters appear to me to want iron clad assurances. That shit’s CRAZY to me.”

No, this is an exaggeration. It’s like saying “POKER PLAYERS WANT IRON CLAD ASSURANCES THEIR CARDS WILL WIN, THERE’S ZERO GUARANTEES EITHER WAY!!!!” No, there are patterns and probabilities and if you learn them you can statistically tilt the odds of you winning in your favor. You can’t guarantee it, but Phil Helmuth is not playing as risky a game as a newbie who’s never sat down at a poker table before.

Phil doesn’t say “oh no I’m so sad these cards suck it’s so negative”, he goes “ok these cards I was dealt are not statistically likely to do well, and when I see the flop and how other people are betting I can tell that these cards are very unlikely to win, so I will fold them”. No emotion involved (lol probably should’ve used someone other than Phil for the no emotion involved analogy)

Your argument boils down to “you can’t guarantee you’ll win 100% of the time at poker so just don’t read any books and close your eyes and play your cards blind because FUCK IT” lol that’s not a good solution, that’s an emotional one.

“The fact that a man would even question ” what about the women that won’t take your name..” is very odd to me. There seems to be a serious lack of vetting skills on the most basic of levels.”

What if I told you 99.999% of women that men meet won’t take their name (that’s not the case but this is just a thought experiment). What is your advice to those men? Vett them all out and just die alone without reproducing? Is that an acceptable solution to you, for millions of men to do that?

OR, would it better in that scenario to go “okay, well that’s a tough spot, but you can’t all just NOT reproduce, so let’s look at options to make the best of this situation”?

“Whenever men attempt to explain issues via a broad brushing and sweeping reaction to something perceived to be an issue, that is a negative reaction.”

You are the only one broad-brushing when you exaggerate our arguments to argue against. No one is using absolutes (lol). But you’re so emotionall invested in this that when we say “statistically this is unlikely to happen” you get your panties in a twist and go “FINE THEN I GUESS IT’S JUST IMPOSSIBLE OK NO ONE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN THEN YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT AHHHHHHHHHH” and we all go “wtf Blax?”

Like Andy says: “Is anyone actually saying that? That’s not what I’m thinking. That’s not the vibe I’m getting from anyone here” and Anonymous Reader says “Who is saying that? Please point to some poster and his words. Thanks.”

“… and there’s nothing that can be done about problem X. It is unsolvable”

No one has said it’s unsolvable, just that it’s very difficult to solve, to the point where statistically and odds-wise, it might not be a wise choice to purse that option. Shitty cards CAN win a poker hand, but it would be better to have alternative plays besides “THROW ALL MY CHIPS IN ON SHITTY CARDS BECAUSE AGHGHGHGHHHH”

“That’s why it rankles me to hear that men just can’t do anything about anything”

The only thing I’ve said absolutely is that hot <25yo 8+/10 girls in most cities come with social media and/or orbiters and/or males in their social circles and/or males at their work place. There's very little evidence to the contrary on those points. That doesn't mean nothing can be done, but it means the odds are not as good as they were pre-tech.

You are the only one turning that into "OH SO THEN IT'S IMPOSSIBLE YOU'RE ALL SO NEGATIVE".

"I don’t get how guys think that monogamy is like cutting off your dick. Lmao. It is indeed a choice. Pssuy is always right around the next corner if that’s what I want. My penis has no idea what monogamy is."

Then you have "mongamy by choice", not obligation. Which is what we are encouraging. Don't promise monogamy in a way where it can be used against you if you break it, because she will always have guys trying to get in her pants. BE monogamous if you CHOOSE to, but don't PROMISE it and sever all your other options and attack legal consequences to that.

"You can always walk the fuck away."

Except if you DON'T sign a legal contract or have kids, you can walk away easily. But if you DO sign a legal contract and have kids, you can't walk away easily. This is basic logic dude. It's a lot harder to walk away from a girl if that means your daughter will be raised by a single mom with other men passing through her life in another part of the country while you're working 2 jobs to support her mom and her new boyfriend she's being made to call Daddy.

"If yaReally states something like ” all women have a million orbiters and tons of social media and she will cheat on you because she has all of this temptation and you can’t ” Alpha ” your way out of it, so we need to find ways to get around it and accept that technology rules the planet and there’s nothing a guy can do ….”"

Good thing I've never said that lol What I HAVE actually said is that <25yo 8+/10 women come with social media, orbiters, etc and those very heavily increase the odds of her cheating on you and it's significantly more difficult to "alpha" your way out of that so we need to find ways to increase men's odds of successfully navigating this direction society has shifted in and accept that technology will never go away it will only progress as it has exponentially since it started and you are not realistically going to get a girl raised with technology to give that technology up.

The negativity is your own negative spin on what I'm saying. And it feels negative to you because it's challenging your beliefs of how things just "ARE" in your gut feels, just like a religious person in a debate about the existance of God feels personally attacked or like the people questioning God's existance are being negative etc because they're just emotionally invested in their beliefs with the other people are just having a discussion.

You are the only one interpreting any of this as "there's nothing a man can do". Multiple people have pointed this out to you now.

@Anonymous Reader
"Agreed and that’s part of vetting. No way a man should get very far down the road without setting out clear boundaries, that’s one of them. But try telling a thirsty, Blue Pilled, Beta that. At the age of 32 he finally, finally has a girl (29.9999) who will settle, er, settle down with him. He doesn’t want to spook this unicorn. So he agrees"

Yup. Got a red pill buddy who had his first girlfriend. Together for 5+ years without living together. Asked him if they've talked about relationships shit. He wants a traditional housewife, she's expressely stated she doesn't want to be one. I'm like dude, you guys aren't compatible. But he kept it going for a couple more years 'cause she was his first real girlfriend and he pictured having kids with her even though they were incompatible with the rest of it.

Guys in monoLTRs fall into scarcity much easier than a guy not promising monogamy and keeping other girls on the side.

"What I am saying is here’s a chess game in mid play. You cannot move the game back, where do you go from here? None of my suggested moves are “let the clock run out and lose by default.”"

lol this is a good analogy too. Blax's "just vet them ALL" is letting the clock run out, millions of men not reproducing. I don't accept that. I say we look at the pieces on the board and discuss alternative strategies like the one I proposed in my last comment. Is it perfect, no, but it's discussion fodder we can work on and ideally field test (first stage is mass pLTRs lol).

"incentives matter… trends matter… and the FI isn’t going to ‘just change’…lol…"

lol this. That's my point. It's like, I'm an asshole for bringing this up and annoying everyone with it but what else are we doing exactly with all this knowledge? Sitting around stroking eachother's dicks about how enlightened we are? Saving a couple close family members? We have all this knowledge, and EVERYONE is in agreement that the 2-parent stable household is prime for raising healthy kids in. And every stat across the board shows things getting WORSE not BETTER.

…so why such resistance to even talking about the subject? What does anyone expect to happen, that we all sit here bragging about how red pill we are for another 10-20 years, then kick the bucket and guys just keep walking off to the slaughter as the FI continues the trends its on?

If Mystery had gone to the seduction forums and been like "hey I have this system I've been field testing" and everyone was like "Dude you just have BE YOURSELF man" "don't bring that negative shit here you're saying you have to demonstrate VALUE oh GOD THAT'S SO NEGATIVE MAN, men have ALWAYS had to struggle I've known that since I was a kid man just cut out this negative talk" "look man I once got with this girl by just being cool that's all anyone needs to know man", where would millions of men who've swallowed the red pill since then be?

Look at Japan. The women there aren't turning around and becoming amazing catches because the grasseaters have bowed out of the game lol They just view those guys as broken hammers and still chase the top of their Hypergamy. Why would things here be any different down the road when we don't have any better solution for men than Japanese guys have? Bow out completely, vett them all out, or roll the dice in a game massively stacked against you. Not great options.

What kind of world do you think your guys' kids and grandkids are going to grow up in, in a world where the majority of kids are raised in broken homes by single moms? We already have examples of that and it ain't pretty but at least it's mostly kept to specific areas/communities…what happens when that's widespread with the trends we're looking at?

Time to come up with solutions.

"Just crack open a beer, sit poolside, do your own thing, and have fun with ’em."

Legit question because you represent the young PUA end of the spectrum: what are your thoughts on having kids/reproducing and raising kids in a stable 2-parent household? Is that something you want to do? How do you envision that looking or happening? Do you want or plan to reproduce and if so what kind of scenario do you envision that happening in?

The being single game is easy, just chill poolside and have fun. But to raise kids in a stable 2-parent household, that's trickier.

"We still have not a good idea of the advantages for a guy to get married in this day and age."

Not a single answer from anyone in 2 pages why it's worth the risks that can't be countered (or may be countered, we gotta look into it more) with alternative means.

"I’m talking about being afraid to fail and having it hinder and stunt you in LIFE."

I don't think anyone is recommending that lol We're all waiting to hear what we're being hindered and stunted FROM by not marrying or promising monogamy. No answers so far.

"In both situ the results are same (you lose a chick) but in the second one you keep your skills up, and are self-sufficient pussy-wise."

And in the pLTR she's more likely to come back (if you want her) because you kept your value up being a boss the whole time, triggering all sorts of preselection and dread and having to keep on your game to attract other girls, and the guys she meets will seem lame and boring compared to you. VS the mono guy who fell into scarcity and became boring to her.

I dunno, I like those odds better personally lol

@Anonymous Reader
"The phone / car interface has moved on quite a bit. Looks like it’s easy now to do voice-to-text via the car/phone unit, so now one more bit of total 24/7 communication is in place" "Maximal, total, constant electronic babysitting."

ya dude my buddies with expensive cars show me that shit and it's surreal to me. I grew up turning a window crank by hand lol Combine that with stuff like bluetooth speaker setups and easy TV/cpu connectivity etc and you can be engaged with technology 24/7 even in situations where, in the past, you wouldn't be able to.

And you wanna tell a girl "I'm taking away this thing that's babysat you and entertained you for 10 years and I'm going to bet half my finances and custody of my kids that I can keep you as entertained 24/7 for 40+ years in that babysitter's absence"? Not great odds in my opinion lol

"Look around in any restaurant including some upscale, UMC hangouts and see how many people under 50 are on their phone, have their phone on the table, just put it down, or are hover-handing over it."

Ya my buddy was trying to catch eye-contact with a girl and he was like "dammit she won't even look up from her phone ahhhhhh" lolol In the past she'd have to look around the room and they might catch eyes but now he's got to go over and interrupt whatever she's engaged with. Everyone's social skills will become stunted from this. Which means guys learning to be social (aka sarging and cold approach etc) will have the edge.

"So none of them are around other men as part of their work day. None of them are around men who might be interesting in some way. As opposed, say, to some 30-something man who marries a girl lawyer, who is around the higher powered guys all the day, and who unconsciously compares her man to those men."

This is why I always include the working in male spaces thing. My doctor buddies are slaying nurse poon left and right. But a chick working in a lingerie store probably isn't meeting high-value guys. But there's a bigger and bigger push to get women into office jobs because that's all they can usually do (they're not gonna do construction lol they'll be HR for a construction company), and that's going to mean more and more girls that guys are meeting will have jobs where they're around guys putting on the Mad Men illusion all day…and they only see those guys for a few minutes per day at the office when they have a flirty little interaction, not enough time to get bored of them compared to their boyfriend/husband sitting at home watching netflix scratching his balls when they get home.

"It’s easier to induce dread in a woman with few options, vs. a woman with an abundance of options (perceived or otherwise)."

Yup, that's why I bring up the "raised in 2016" culture when these guys bring up their wives who use social media but are in their 40s+ It's completely different. That's like me comparing how much I drive VS how much a Formula 1 champion drive. I can take or leave the car, the F1 guy would feel like he's losing his limbs.

@Sun Wukong
"That’s right. At the age most men get fucked by lawyers, I was fucking two lawyers. You’re welcome, gentlemen."


"But you old guys DO keep dragging it back to “you just afraid of hard work, etc.” How many times must we address that before we can all move on to practical solutions?"

lol this. It's not US that are stunting the discussion and saying there are no solutions. We're actively LOOKING for better options and trying to discuss them precisely because we believe there ARE solutions.

"Right now, the one sided pLTR, harem, seems like the best way to keep your value up, and ensure she doesn’t sleep around."

It all helps trigger her Hypergamy. That doesn't mean bigger and better won't come along, but you would be in a less advantageous position whether you were in a monoLTR or legal marriage LTR than in a pLTR so you'd be fucked either way, except without legal marriage you'd at least not lose half your shit.

"But this brings up a bigger point I’ve been thinking about. The fact that every hot girl has 100 paper Chad’s sliding in her DM can only undermine your Dread or LSNFTE or pLTR…"

It makes a difference, no denying that. That's why I say a guy may have to accept that his girl will HAVE to go find out a few of those Chads are paper to realize that and then come back. That may be an optimal strategy now…in which case it would be better to FORCE her to do that (dumping her during the NRE stage) so she has to scramble and pick some Chads she hasn't vetted, VS waiting for her to get bored with you and vett a few promising monkey branches.

And an LSNFTE may take longer to come back now, than 5-10 years ago.

"here’s to being a high-functioning psychopath"


"So, if a guy doesn’t have a pLTR or a harem, can he possibly keep his value up? Is there ANY possible was to ensure she doesn’t sleep around?"

Sure he can. It's just significantly more difficult and the current recommendations by society (monogamy and legal marriage) actively HAMPER his ability to keep his value up. You are a super badass from another time with better training growing up and your wife is from another time with better influences growing up, so even AGAINST the odds you've been able to overcome them.

But now that's a helluva gamble to bet half your assets and being able to tuck your children in at night on.

"Every hot girl has 100 paper chads sliding in her DM? Every. Hot. Girl?"

Really WATCH these videos. Don't skip them or think you "get it" already. Really sit down and watch them start to finish without skipping to the end. You need to really understand what it's like for girls now:

Stay to the end when he scrolls through the actual list…"she" has a 100% match percentage (that means 100% of the guys she theoretically decided "I'm interested in seeing what this guy is like", already matched her) and my estimate is he's got about 40 pages of matches at the end there, times like 7 matches per page that's around 280 give or take:

In 24 hours the girl got 701 matches, 378 MESSAGES RECEIVED, and she matched with the vice president of Tinder himself lol:

*24 HOURS*

Or how about this:

“The barrage of matches happened almost immediately. The profile wasn’t up more than 5 minutes and we were getting matches on every guy we swiped on. My phone buzzes every time I get a message, match or liked picture and my phone was a constant buzz. I learned to turn off notifications. In about less than 30 minutes, we had swiped right until we ran out of swipes. We had amassed 220 matches in that time frame. Nearly every single one of those matches started messaging us as well. Right now at this moment, I scrolled all the way down to the bottom and I count, I kid you not, only 12 people who did not send a message. That means, Amanda received 208 messages within the first day. The numbers may be off a bit here, but we can safely assume it is around here.

after only 3 days of having the profile, we have amassed over 966 matches. The matches are still coming in.”

I mean, what do you expect Blax? Why are you guys so resistant to this? Is it just because you’ve never seen something on this scale before technology-wise? Like Star Wars blowing everyone’s mind in the 70s?

We’re talking about 25yo who stay well-preserved are swimming in this. And these are losers, pause these vids and look at the guys and TONS are good looking Chads putting on their best impression in their highlight profile and going to talk about wanting commitment and shit, they aren’t going to say “I’m gonna pump & dump you dumbass” lol And a lot of them really ARE offering commitment, they’ll just turn out to be lame when she spends time with them.

For your next street experiments, start asking girls to see their Tinder match list and messages and ask them how many messages they get in a weekend from guys in general just trying to get them to come out or hang out etc. Remember to do this with the 8+/10s.

“Lol. I just have to challenge the absolutes that pop up.”

I think you should start quoting the absolutes that you’re challenging, because the rest of us don’t seem to be seeing absolutes where you see them and as far as I know I’m not making any and have repeatedly explained that.

“Most marriages that I’m talking about are in the 20+ year range.”

Pre-993-matches-in-3-days era.

saving your FR to check out separate from this discussion so it doesn’t get lost lol blew WAY too much time here today but the discussion has been fun. Got your FR bookmarked to check out and won’t be gay and forget about it like last time lol

“firstly, I think I kind of unconsciously eye fuck asian girls lol. I just think “whoa, nice asian chick.””

This is why you’ll be a force of destruction in a city full of girls you’re into physically lol

“” . . . what sort of effort/costs were involved in handling a lot of that stuff.”

Simple Will, Health Proxy, Power of Attorney, two deed transfer fees, across one office visit and two home visits, in NYS: ‘Bout a grand. The “prenup” will go on top of that and the cost will vary with the complication and how much advice time you eat up. Do your homework first so you have a rough draft to begin with and figure 5 or 6 hundred.”

I mean, shit. When you calculate it out, how many divorce-raped guys would rather have paid a couple thousand bucks than go through whatever they went through in the divorce? THAT’S the big obstacle?? lol

@Anonymous Reader
“The Duluth Power Wheel is standard in pretty much every state in defining what “abuse” is, and I’m sure that telling a wife to delete her FB account would be just as much abuse as, oh, cutting up her credit card or shouting at her (both are listed in Federal guidelines.).”

Yup, in the past she probably wouldn’t even know about that model. Now it’s shoved down her throats by the FI and 5 of her friends have been in “abusive” relationships (according to their side of it when they get caught cheating lol) and every little “microaggression” is “abusive”.

I had a girl call me emotionally abusive for not returning her texts fast enough lol

@Sun Wukong @SJF
““I never said at any point that I disagree with commitment. I disagree with marriage as the form that commitment takes. The legal hamstringing and removal of true Dread. There is no part of the First World where I advocate commitment in the form of marriage currently at any age to any woman.””

This. Commitment RULES. *VOLUNTARY* commitment. By choice. Day by day. Based on whether she’s keeping up her end of the bargain. With the OPTION to stray/leave with minimal consequence, because commitment doesn’t require monogamy or a legal contract.

But that’s not what guys are signing up for. They’re signing up for involuntary monogamy or one-sided monogamy and legally chaining themsleves into commitment “for sickness health rich poor” bla bla except when SHE says the vows she’s thinking “(omg I can’t wait to post these photos to Facebook I hope they’re getting my good side in this shot) huh what? oh ya, whatever you just said sounds cool, I do. :)” lol

on September 8th, 2016 at 9:02 pm
Original Link

lol calm down. Serious question: Do you think there aren’t PUAs in your magical flyover states? Do you think there aren’t guys in your Realm (lol) who’ve typed in “how do I get a girlfriend” into google at some point?

“You actually think parents have no influence over daughters?”

lol quote where I said they had NO influence at all. Never said that. I said societal influences are huge and once they leave the roost out into the real world where they’re subject to them and out of your direct care, it’s harder to keep that influence (unless they leave to go to a nunnery and even then).

“And I don’t have evidence that she doesn’t admire and respect her parents upbringing and ongoing advice.”
“That we have not observed her behaviors over the last 25 years and approve of her and her choices?”

Serious question: Do you think girls sucking our dicks run to their parents and go “I JUST SUCKED A BUNCH OF DICK AND HAVE NO VALUES!!!”? That their parents have ANY idea they’re doing the things they’re doing? That their parents don’t think they’re complete angels?

You know how when someone shoots up a school and they interview the parents and the parent is like “Oh MY little Johnny would NEVER do that, he’s a perfect angel”? Well…

“Wild-eyed fucking Strawman proposal.”

And what would you call the original silly experiment you pitched to all of us that you’re only getting upset over now because none of us answered it the way you wanted us to and we turned it around on you.

Not a fan of Luke personally. Haven’t seen anything infield from him that’s very impressive and he’s running a heavily social circle based style of game (in a city with an insane overabundance of hot girls compared to most cities). I’m not into that style so I skim his vids for useful content but a lot of it isn’t very applicable to me (though it might be cool for the college crowd with big social circles on campus etc). His general style is dominate the group with good energy, be a social connector, grab numbers under asexual pretenses and then arrange situations where you happen to end up isolated together.

So his perspectives come from that style of game where, ya, if I bring my BFF female friends to the bar and you’re groping them or keeping them away from us, I’m probably gonna send a girl over to get her back or start asking who the creeper is. Kino/isolation in social circle game gives you more room to fuck up (or looking “creepy” trying to get her away from her friends, grab the wrong girl, miscalibrate how into you she is, etc).

on September 8th, 2016 at 10:51 pm
Original Link

“But calling your shots is a fools game at the rate that you are going. Good luck with that. And good luck with not understanding misunderstanding the role of OMG’s in 2016 game. Or misunderstanding parent game.”

“What exactly is your criticism of my children.”

I don’t know anything about your children, why would I criticize them? I just know that that when a dad is convinced their daughter is incapable of sucking dick because she’s some UMC farm church good girl and everyone around him is perfectly happily married 24/7 and all the guys are badass alphas and all the girls are super intelligent magic unicorn good-girls, it’s a pretty big red flag that he might not be the most objective observer in the world of what’s going on in his “Realm”.

“And how does that relate to your getting your dick sucked? And your getting your dick sucked has nothing to do with parental knowledge that our daughter is not out sucking dicks like yours?”

I nominate this as the best thing ever written on this site.

“And the subcomms that a parent can read that their daughter is monogamous with her boyfriend?”

“What does a daughter’s sexual strategy have to do with a PUA’s sexual strategy?”

I don’t know dude, YOU’RE the one who brought the whole daughter stuff into this thing lol

“And then you wonder why your shadow hasn’t posted up some of your “insights” onto YaReally archives.”

lol what? Are you dissing Lumpy? Do you think he manually goes through all of my posts one by one and cuts and pastes them into the achive? Dude is a tech wizard, that shit is auto-grabbed. It probably just needs to be updated ’cause WordPress changed something that threw it off, it’s happened a couple times before and I haven’t emailed him about it yet because I keep forgetting lol

“It’s because your veering into the 2% of your insights that have no relevance to the manosphere. No relevance because they are baseless speculation on how Apex people actually function. Don’t wish you were in a world that ought to be. Be better.”

lol what are you even talking about dude? Let me guess: you and your friends and family and everyone you assosciate with are the Apex people in your head, right?

“What is your point here?”

I’ve re-stated it multiple times. The current strategy is broken for the majority of men and I’d like to find realistic implementable field-testable solutions to fix it so we can build a new strategy for men of this generation and future generations to be able to raise kids in a stable 2-parent household with minimal risk to themselves (VS legal marriage), minimal restriction on their sexuality (VS agreeing to monogamy), and without having to move in next door to your farm and pray to Jesus they beat the odds.

“You’re frustrated with the chessboard. We get that. The rules are changing.”

lol what? I’m not frustrated. I’m just discussing realities of how society is evolving and what effects that evolution has on men’s long-term strategy.

“My opinion is have more monetary financing for your plan. Have more money to raise the children and more in the bank than divorce rape can ever hurt you.”

What WOULD a world look like where 90%+ of men had millions of dollars in the bank account? I’d love to see it, but I don’t think that’s a very realistic to expect the vast majority of men to execute. How much she takes in divorce is based on how much you have so even if you have a lot she’s going to be taking proportional chunks of that. Robin Williams had a lot of money but had to take shitty work to pay his insane alimony.

Plus the money part is no guarantee the kids will have a stable 2-parent household. Lots of rich divorced people and kids being raised in shitty broken homes even though they have money. I’d prefer a plan that has better odds.

“I thought you gave up on debating me.”

Oh I did, I’m just fucking with you not debating you. You’re the one who pitched a silly scenario with a mythical unicorn to everyone and went on your rants about the Perfect People in your magical Apex Realm that no one else could understand. I literally don’t even know what you’re mad about at this point. Do you? lol

@Anonymous Reader
lol another decent analogy. Yes, computers still run programs to make things happen. That hasn’t changed. But a lot of the stuff around it has made the way to make that happen different, whether it’s touching the screen or using a mouse or a keyboard or motioning in the air in VR.

Attraction is still attraction, all I’m saying is it’s harder to keep that attraction (aka stay at the top of her Hypergamy) triggered in 2016.

“Man, it’s gonna be interesting when today’s 22 year old girls hit 30 and their affirmation / “likes” drops back to only a hot tub. Imagine catching one of those off of the carousel, what kind of ego issues will she be bringing in her baggage?”

I can’t even imagine at this point. I’ve met girls who’ve only had social media for a handful of years who are approaching the wall and trying to process it and it’s brutal to watch. They’re torn between accepting that they’re losing attention but they’ve been programmed for years with that kind of validation and attention to STILL think they have a shot at the happy ending. They’re fighting their years of conditioning and neural networks etc the same way a newbie PUA is fighting all his Blue Pill conditioning when he first starts going out.

It’s sad to me, really. I see them and just feel bad for them. But it is what it is and I’m focused on helping men not women…’cause helping men ultimately helps everyone else.

@Sun Wukong
“Dollars to donuts you’d rather have a guy like me giving her brilliant, good looking kids then raising them with an eye towards a complementary relationship with the opposite sex even if he hated the idea of marriage. Hell maybe even because he had the understanding and balls to give the middle finger to marriage while still finding a way to have what he wanted. Billy Beta that she settles for will probably be out of the picture leaving either barely a/no dad or a series of Alpha tingles of no value to the kids.”

This is all a good point, Drunk Wukong. (I’m jealous because I’m sick and stuck indoors tonight booo)

“TL;DR: Women in that situation should be made aware they’re fucking themselves badly if they don’t take a great guy when he comes along, even if it’s without the fairy tale princess hour she always thought she’d have.”

The question is: will they listen? And the next question is: why WOULD they? lol

“I’ve seen HB4s get that kind of response through the use of clever camera angles. Shit’s insane.”

And on the flip side I know plenty of high-value dudes WAY above those 4s’ league, who end up fucking them because they’re horny and too nice to walk away from a catfish or they’re horny and in a dry spell or they’re horny and drunk etc

So these girls often have LEGITIMATE reason to believe they can get some HG9 dude, because they really DID a few times. He never called them back but he was clearly a jerk and the NEXT guy will definitely stay, look at this guy Tindering me right now promising me the world, I bet THIS one stays…….lol

on September 9th, 2016 at 12:14 pm
Original Link

“At the 10 to 16 years old the children are like soft putty”

Dunno, in other cultures they’re out hunting at 10 and having babies at 16. Maybe the UMC is too soft a life to raise real men and women.

“And parental influence is tremendously damped at this time, when it is needed the most.”

Well which is it, are they moldable like soft putty by everything BUT their parents then? Might as well go through a separation then, they’re not listening to you anyway.

“The best time to screw up a future adult is not to be all in with positive, skilled parental influence at this time.”

The scenario we’re dealing with is that at some point women may have to stray to appreciate what they have, “DUDE THE KEY IS JUST BOTH OF YOU BE PERFECT FOREVER AND STAY TOGETHER FOREVER AND PARENT PERFECTLY FOREVER” may not be a common option on the table at this point in society.

I’m saying “what should we do in the scenario where we have a flat tire, since it looks like the trend is that most people will have a flat tire” and you’re saying “DUDE JUST DON’T GET A FLAT TIRE”. Oh okay thanks for the wisdom!

“The more resources you have to bring to the parenting role, the less you will feel compromised.”

Tell it to the deadbedroom and divorce-raped and cuckolded guys who have money.

Man, I’m not fast to recommend bail on a marriage (I’m one of the ones that told Andy to chill on the nuke button) but it doesn’t sound like either of you is really getting anything out of the relationship. She’s going to want kids at some point probably, and if you really don’t, and you two don’t spend much time together, etc I mean, I don’t really see any benefit for either of you. Also don’t tell us where but are you in a country/state where after 10 years she gets lifetime alimony?

Thing is, you can’t picture the single life as replacing her with some other girl about her level or better and visualizing your life like that. Picture NO GIRLS, for like, 3 years. How would you do day to day life-wise without ANY sex, affection, cuddling, etc at ALL for a few years. Like the part of your schedule that goes to her now is just empty free time with no girls. Does that change anything for you?

If you’re cool with that and the consequences look minimal to you (like no house/kids together etc) then ya, you might just be one of those unlucky cases where marrying was done under a bunch of misinformed ideas about life and IS wasting both your time. The reality is she’s got a window before she hits the wall…if you think you feel bad bailing NOW, imagine bailing on her when she’s 35 post-wall and will have a hard time finding another man. I don’t see a way out of it without creating some bad feels though, so prepare yourself mentally for that (I still vividly remember breaking up with my first GF and the moment I crushed her soul, even though it was better for us because I would have been wasting her time if we stayed together longer).

But ya, I don’t see any reasons to recommend you staying in your situation. Very different from if you had kids (or even PLANNED to have kids) with her or lived together etc.

My Secret Garden is an eye opener that’s for sure lol I’m an advocate for always being informed, about the good and bad, the pretty and the ugly, but it affects every guy a little differently and there are probably some guys that were happier in their ignorance lol

“Old man freak out in this thread. lol.”


“I feel the same way. I’ve been living in this world where people have been lying to me since I was born, and then I’m going to live another lie to counteract all the other lies? lol. My strategy is go behind her back (kind of… I mean, she knows I’m not in the house. lol. She probably has an idea.) for a while, and raise my value through the roof, and then just be open about it. Again, only doing this because I have kids.”

I think this is an alright strategy for your situation. I’ve always said that I don’t respect guys who purposely enter a mono relationship and cheat but that I give a free pass to the guys who entered a monoLTR without knowing anything about game or the red pill and are trapped in it when they wouldn’t have chosen it if they realized they had an option, and they have kids or divorce-rape risk etc and can’t just bail.

So as far as I’m concerned your strategy is fine. Your chick is also less possessive/insecure than a lot of other women, based on the conversations you had with her about the whole thing…she flips enough green flags that I think you’ll be fine even if you did get caught at some point.

“I haven’t made the point again in this thread, but I have pointed out on numerous occasions that you may have to move. Stay out of community property states and states that recognize any sort of “union” by default of shacking up.”

These are the things I’d like men to be informed of. If you live in places with common law then a part of your plan should be “don’t settle down here” lol Or be prepared to do the legal work of pro-actively informing the government you don’t want to participate in that circus.

“Australia is already doing this for 3 year unions (not marriage)… Chumps WILL pay up, whether or not they are married OR monogamous… either directly via breaking the union or via confiscation via taxation… or BOTH.”

Sadly this is probably accurate. Australia is hardcore entrenched in the feminist/SJW shit from what I hear. Like I say they’ll probably try punishment before they try reward.

“Re: SJF – He’s finally giving a proper fucking to his wife and stopped being a blue pill, beta pussy with her so now his ego is dialed up to 11.”

lol every newbie goes through this stage. It’s obnoxious but eventually they realize how off-putting people find them. Like, congrats, you’re fucking your old wife, settle down lol

“But the real question that I think Sentient and SJF are asking is are you here to be average? Or are you here to become the master of your “Realm”?”

It would be great if every guy could become a super boss, but the reality is they won’t. I’m looking for solutions for the average dude.

“When men reject an attempt to impart knowledge earned”

Looking for the “attempt to impart knowledge” in your spazzy rant or SJF’s delusional UMC bragging and flipping his shit on me for suggesting he might not be an impartial observer of his own kids and community that he thinks are heaven-sent flawless…can’t seem to find that attempt to impart knowledge hmmm…

“(and the larger point that historically not all men have been biologically successful… LOL) My point of Not All Lion Tamers Are Like That is not for nothing… most will not try, most that do try will fail… that is the real issue. The cure is doing the work, not merely looking to hedge off your risk.”

I don’t accept the idea that we should be cool with our fellow man not achieving their biological goals. Provide them a less risky alternative and they may prosper just fine (or fine enough to keep society going).

That’s all marriage was originally: a way for betas to lock down a girl with the lowest risk of her leaving. And it was good for society and kids. But that system is outdated because it’s now a high risk system.

“I’m not really picking on old guys in general, but I think the disconnect is that (some of) you guys see marriage and monogamy as worth saving for some undisclosed reason.”

This. But they won’t tell us the reason or give any reasons relevant to a man in 2016. It’s just this mythical “We can’t admit it’s done and over with because that’s too negative and depressing” thing because it’s been socially conditioned into them.

At the end of the day no one has provided any real reason to marry OR agree to a monoLTR (VS choosing to be monogamous).

“I think LTRs are worth having. Kids are worth having. But, marriage and monogamy is not the best strategy to get those things.”

This has been my point from the start. The pushback and overreaction is fascinating.

“We value your advice. We are not trying to shit all over your lives and relationships and life choices. Calm your tits.”

This lol

“Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that marriage and monogamy doesn’t seem worth it to you?”

We’ve been asking for like 4 pages now for anyone who brings that “well maybe it’s just not worth it to YOU” thing to provide ANY reason to choose legal marriage and/or obligated monogamy (VS voluntary with the option to stray).

That’s the part that’s frustrating to us. All the old guys just go “well maybe YOU don’t see the value in it…” but we’re saying there *IS* no longer value in it. For ANY man. We should accept that. There was for some of you back in the day (even though most of that was an illusion and you could’ve had the same life you have now without legal marriage or obligated monogamy), but there isn’t now and we should be working from that premise that legal marriage and agreeing to monogamy to secure an LTR (with a girl who has social media, works in male spaces, has male orbiters or males in her social circles, etc) is simply NOT an option anymore.

Like why can’t any of you just say “back in my day we felt we had reason to, but now there is NO reason to anymore”? Is it because you’re worried your daughters/granddaughters won’t get married if society shifts that way as a whole? Like what’s the resistance to this.

“Like for you, it might be okay if your wife left you after a Girl’s Night Out where her friends tell her you are being a pig and a lowlife, and she “wakes up”.

Other guys might not want that.”

No one WANTS that. wtf? But we’re saying it’s more often the case in 2016 compared to your day.

“Why would any of us think we can tell any particular man how to choose – once he’s fully informed of course.”

So inform us why marriage should even be CONSIDERED an option for men these days? Or obligated monogamy? Why can’t any of you point out some benefit that can’t be gotten in a non-legal voluntarily-monogamous relationship?

’cause there is none. But now the old guys will go “I GUESS OUR OPINION ISN’T WANTED HERE WAH WAH” No, it’s just we’re putting your opinions under the microscope just like we put “do we really need to be a Nice Guy to get girls?” under the microscope.

When you AREN’T asked for your opinion you get butthurt that no one wants to hear the old men, then when you ARE asked for it you get butthurt that we dare look at it analytically instead of just listening to the wise old men on the mountaintop tell us how things work and nod our heads and go “well that’s it then, whatever they said goes forever because they’re old!”

“Even though I know that 90‰ of guys don’t have the knowledge of work ethic to build harems or pLTR’s, I don’t poo_poo the idea.”

Maybe they would TRY, from an early age, and be able to develop that shit if we didn’t have them still chasing marriage and agreeing to lop-sided monogamy where their girls keep their options open and they lose theirs. Maybe if we would finally admit that the old systems are dead and look at plans of action to teach guys to run pLTRs and give them alternatives to legal marriage (like getting everything handled by a lawyer for a couple thousand bucks), we would SEE more of that 90% try this shit.

Maybe if we had a system that worked better than the shitty broken one, to achieve that “2 kids raised in a stable 2-parent household” dream, more Blue Pill guys would start learning about the Red Pill because they’re watching their friends getting divorced and losing their kids and realizing the old system isn’t really in their favor anymore.

“if you want to marry them it gives you some statistical improvement on your chances for staying married”

Even then that’s debatable. In the old days where that virgin would only have a few influences in her life in some religious community where everyone behaved, ya, you might have a statistically better chance. But a virgin in a normal city in 2016? She’s just a girl that it’s easy to convince has “missed out on experiences”, whether by an asshole like me at the bar or her girlfriends who want to rationalize their own dick-sucking and bring their virgin friend down to their level in the bucket.

“Which is contributing to me wondering what value does she really bring me that makes the relationship worth it (the legal marriage I’m sure is not worth it).”

That’s why I say picture life without her and without ANY girl for a few years. Not a replacement girl. Assume you just won’t get laid or find a girl etc, so you can really picture “what is she bringing to the table that I would legitimately miss if no other girl was supplying it”? Like imagine your every couple weeks touch and affection from her is replaced with just you by yourself in your apartment.

If you can’t come up with anything then she just might not be bringing you anything. You guys may have just made a naive mistake and you’re in a position to correct it with little negative outcome in the grand scheme of things.

““When you do go into something… go in aware, think about contingencies but ACT, always ACT like you do not have any and commit/execute.”

Good advice, but isn’t that what we’re doing? Figuring out how to make ltr’s and raising kids work. I feel like I’m either dumb or speaking Greek here.”

lol I’m with you on this Andy. It seems like we’re doing EXACTLY what these guys keep harping on about, but it’s like they don’t like hearing the discussion at all because it’s too negative or they interpret it as us being scared or something. Like, we’re just having a discussion so that guys can “go in aware” and we’re discussing contingencies.

No one has EVER *EVER* recommended “go into a relationship crying and scared and telling your girl you’re terrified and be negative and fear the end of it and doom and gloom”

BUT, just like you accept that probably in a relationship your girl isn’t going to give you a million dollars, it’s okay to accept that maybe in 2016 there will be a break in the relationship at some point for her to go find out her other options aren’t great.

It’s like you guys flip out at the idea that a relationship might not just be 100% perfect 24/7 always from start to death. “WUT BUT IF U AREN’T TOGETHER 24/7 THEN U ARE A DEFEATIST!!!!!” Like no, we’re just saying have some realistic expectations.

If I take some third world foreign dude to the mall, I just expect that we’re going to have a slow day because he’s going to want to stop and look at everything around him. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that and going “so maybe I shouldn’t make a bet that I can get him to the other side of the mall at the same pace those other people who weren’t dealing with these circumstances did”

Why is this so complicated to understand? I’m as confused as Andy about your guys’ reactions. It’s like we can intellectually discuss/debate anything EXCEPT DARING TO QUESTION TRADITION lol

“” Now what do they have in common?”

Got game. I agree, game is the answer for every man.”

Game sure they have that in common, but what else? Where do you think they are on frame? Pussy Pedestalization? MPO? Self actualization? Ego? On executing a dynamic, passionate and authentic life?”

Why don’t you just TELL us where you think they are on frame, PP, MPO, etc? You clearly know their inner thoughts more than we do from 2 photos.

“Can you see how the whole “woe’s marriage” and “A Dummy’s Guide to Unbreakable Pre Nups for a Happy Marriage” thing is just a huge, huge red herring to the real issues?”

Andy, look man, I know you’re thinking this business deal where you sign half your company over to me if I decide to not work at some point in the next 40 years SEEMS like maybe it’s worth discussing other deals, but BRO. Can’t you see how that “a dummy’s guide to not risking half your company on a silly lopsided outdated deal that’s statistically likely to fail” is just a huge, huge red herring to the REAL issues?

“Nested Comments are a terrible evil.”

We tried that and it was a huge fail lol I hated the long-form of this when I first came here but now I like it. You always know what content is new and where to find it (it’s always at the end) and you catch glimpses of other conversations along the way that you might not have clicked on if it were a thread labelled “discussion about Subject X” And then you gotta bookmark the conversations so you can get back to them easy and shit

Just don’t make it slow to load and badly formatted on mobile lol And keep the whole “latest comment by X on article Y” that helps us not have to go through 4 pages to get to the latest comments…make that list longer even.

“In my fave cafe. New school year started at the local colleges (influx of like 3000 18-24yo HBs).”

lol AGAIN to reinforce to the guys sarging, young and old, do what you have to to move to a college town. The % of female students is increasing and your male competition in their peer groups is getting lamer.


“but I don’t think I’ve ever done A3 correctly.”

Julien in PIMP has a bunch of shit on A3. Even his free PIMP clips on YouTube are enough to give you a huge leg up on A3. Mystery explains A3 great too…and understand that Julien is just supercharging Mystery’s A3 (Mystery devalidates/disqualifies her once, Julien does it 5x in a row before she has a chance to qualify herself at all, exact same concept but Julien’s is supercharged)

“Essentially my approaches are mostly about creating rapport” “i still improvise and it’s just not effective”

You’re just doing what every guy does lol Set specific goals to work on and learn the A1-A3 stage that most guys don’t know even EXISTS. So when you go into rapport/comfort it has more meaning to her. You can improvise on the guitar once you understand how to play the chords…otherwise it’s just the same noise every other guy is making. πŸ˜‰

“But seriously do not worry… you have discovered a magic way to convert Divorce Rape into consensual sex… your invention will be trumpeted by the #NeverMarryDivorceRapeHalfAssetsWHAAAAA crowd for a generation.”

But seriously do not worry…you have discovered a magic way to mass-produce butter in a more efficient better way…your invention will be trumpeted by the #DontChurnButterAllDayWHAAAAA crowd for a generation…those IDIOTS lolololz

“I guess I would take that as work on yourself and everything else will work itself out”

So here we end up back at be alpha 24/7 forever bro. Well it was a fun attempt to push the discussion forward and come up with new strategies for men, but fuck it, that was silly of me. Instead of discussing the handful of plans that we’ve thrown out there, you know, getting these old guys’ opinions on “that’s an interesting thought, how WOULD a temporary separation initiated by me have affected things in my marriage or marriages that I’ve seen not work out (except in SJF’s case, where every marriage around him is 100% rainbows and sunshine forever)”

Nope, that’s too negative, let’s just listen to the wise old men who aren’t married to 2016 girls that everything’s going to magically work itself out and fuck any alternative plans. Just shut up and churn that butter.

Not a SINGLE constructive comment from any of the old wise men about the possible alternative plans I’ve thrown out there. Just a lot of “UHHH UHHH NO DON’T DO THINGS DIFFERENT JUST DO WHAT WE DID!!!! AHHHH!!!” lol And then you guys wonder why we treat you like “okay they only seem to be able to see one way of doing things so their advice is pretty limited”

“Don’t waste them confusing yourself. Figure shit out and keep it moving.”

Ya, fuck man, don’t confuse yourself looking at things objectively. Figure shit out, but don’t ACTUALLY figure shit out unless you figure shit out in the way we approve of otherwise you’re negative and retarded and #NeverMarryDivorceRapeHalfAssetsWHAAAAA expecting failure. Just figure shit out the way us old guys who haven’t been monogamous to or married 2016 girls because we’re too busy banging our HB10 50yo wives tell you to figure it out.

on September 9th, 2016 at 2:17 pm
Original Link

@hank holiday
“Pushed past anyway with usual “hey we’re just going for coffee around the corner is all . . . ah so your husband doesn’t let you talk to other men lol””

lol good ballsy attempts to push it in a no-risk scenario (her hubby isn’t around, VS if he was nearby where this would be dangerous), so props.

“but she was insistent so let it drop.”

And good calibration. Push it just to see if it’s just a shit-test, and then drop it if it is and leave on a good “can’t blame a guy for trying ;)” note.

“Dude and chick. Don’t usually open those so just ran with it. Piercing girl, but they were very cold just “dude like call her or whatever.” very “uuuh, why are you chatting with us.” just a bad set is all — not much you can do with those”

Keep in mind that it’s extremely out of the ordinary for someone to open a couple like that so just in general you’ll find sometimes they’re confused about why you’re even engaging them or if there’s some angle or something to it lol Not saying that’s what happened here, like, this was probably just a bad set, but just mentally expect that you’re barging into their little bubble and that’s something that rarely happens to them and the social awkwardness can be on THEIR end sometimes because they’re not sure what’s happening.

“She didn’t stop so I just paced her as she walked around”

Good. RSD has a bunch of daygame stuff about this, try to stop her but if you can’t then just adapt and go with her. Whatever buys you time to display your personality.

““You made all that stuff up didn’t you?” “Nah. It really happened” and then just continued on.”

Could have tried something like “Ya, I just thought you were cute and wanted to flirt.” or “you’re so suspicious of me…do I give off that vibe? Actually this one girl thought I was a drug dealer…” to see if you can trigger a Buying Temp spike but it sounds like you had bare minimum A2 with her so that would be flipping a coin just trying to find something that sticks (which is fine, that’s part of routine stacking, you stack till something hits).

“But once I got into that store with her it changed thing. Walking along with her is one thing, but now I am at her destination so she’s like “okay where is this going”.”

Right this is the same situation as when you sit down with some girls at a bar…as Mystery says the first thing they think is “how long is he going to be here?” lol a False Time Constraint turns it from “is he going to follow me around all day?” to “he’ll be leaving when his friend texts him in 10 min like he mentioned so this isn’t as weird”

“Cuz she was stopped there for a bit after the whole “you made that up” bit so there was room to work there. I just needed something else to kind of spike her a bit more, make it feel alright for me to be with her there shopping with her, then I can just keep gaming her in the store.”

Right, good analysis. It sounds like you had minor A2, but like you say “room to work” (PUA is about trying to create a spark and then fanning that spark into a flame then into a campfire then into a raging forest fire, so looking for “room to work” is a good mentality, VS looking for green light blatant IOIs…you just need to nail 10 seconds to buy yourself 30, nail that 30 to buy yourself 1 min, nail that 1 min to buy yourself 5 min, nail that 5 min to buy 10 min, etc etc)

So something you could have done instead if you wanted to go indirect might be “You made all that stuff up didn’t you?” “You’re so suspicious of me…do I give off that vibe? Actually the friend I’m waiting for thought I was a drug dealer when we first met…”

Or if you wanted to go more direct you could have done something like “Ya, I just wanted to flirt with you while I wait for my friend to get here. When I was saying it I was like man this chick is gullable, I bet a lot of guys see you and think you’re–(cold reads etc)”

Make sense? In both situations you’re transitioning into some BT spiking routines, while also dropping in a FTC so her brain goes “oh, okay, he has limited time”.

Usually she’ll ask for further clarification on the next break something like “So when is your friend coming?”, not necessarily as a brush-off it can be like “because I’m enjoying this and hope it doesn’t end too soon” so don’t read into that as a negative thing by default.

Then if you’re running out of things to say at that point you could just go “oh they’re probably here now, but you’re fun have you been to (bla) what are you up to later bla bla (Time Bridge)” and try for a solid number close. Or if you’re feeling good and have good chemistry with her and she’s having fun you could either say “soon but I’m just helping them pick out a gift for someone and then I’m free, let’s grab a (whatever) when I’m done” and give her half an hour to do her shopping (incase she has to buy tampons and shit lol) then meet up again. Or if it’s going well “about 10 min” and then pretend to get a text saying they’ve cancelled or say “ehh, they’ll forgive me, so what’s next on our shopping list?” and continue with her and then sidetrack her into an instadate from there.

Lots of possible angles lol Use your own judgement of course.

“Still, opening girls now that are walking past (didn’t used to) and sticking with them for a bit. Feel like I need a different stack for these situs. Need to ping the BT faster.”

The euro guys jump in front of the girl and stop them but I think that works better on friendly bored tourists than girls over here that are busy doing shit lol I like the walking with them thing but 1) spike that BT (teasing and roleplaying will usually spike BT faster than DHVs and deep cold reads, just because they’re usually shorter and things you can just off-hand joke to her VS needing her full focus paying attention to a story or deep cold read) and 2) ON the BT spikes TRY slowing up your pace and see if she follows your lead. If she doesn’t, keep walking with her, but like, on a big BT spike, try a “hey look at that!” and stop and point at something and see if you can get her to stop walking to see how much compliance/A2 you have ’cause if you can get her to stop and pay full attention to you then that’s a good time to pull out the longer DHVs/deep cold reads so that even if you keep walking again because she actually has to get somewhere, you have her hooked harder.

“in a “you are giving a presentation at a formal meeting when a thong wearing male stripper walks in and starts chatting with you about the 1992 superbowl game.” That kind of “wait, what?””


“I was out in the open, she in an aisle. So as I was talking I switched up and moved into the aisle on the other side. I dunno, just made it more intimate.”

Similar to when you open a seated set, sit as soon as possible (BEFORE the open (or AS the opener) even, if you can), or with girls with their back to you get them to turn around etc so it looks and feels less “gamey” to you, her, and everyone. So good instincts on this.

“Shook hands . . . and held it. Long time lol. Like 10 sec.”

One of my fav compliance tests. Not hard enough that she can’t take her hand away but if she leaves it there, that’s a big IOI to me. With a girl who’s ESL you probably have to pay more attention to the little subcomms like this because those are her way of communicating interest since she can’t verbalize it smoothly.

“I remember at this point I had a very definite attraction to her through the physical contact and wanted to fuck her. But, especially now in hindsight, it was CRAZY the effect just that hand hold had. Granted, I have shook many other girls hands with no really effect, but once you have that vibe start to generate, physicallity just drives it through the roof.”

lol were you doing laser eye-contact with eachother? I find everything is enhanced when we have that bedroom eye-contact locked in. One of my favorite moments in the overall seduction.

“Had a paper she had to finish, she went out to take a break from it. So i told her we should get some icecream. She agreed.”

Beautiful. Taking the lead and moving things forward to a new venue etc All good stuff, and compliance from her, so solid A2.

“As we walked to exit the bookstore she said “are you going to kidnap me?” I was crestfallen “how did you figure that out? well never mind, I can’t abduct you now.” and started to walk away from her a bit. She laughed at this.”

Perfect agree & amplify. When I bring a girl to my place I’ll usually pre-emptively make jokes like this in the elevator if I sense her having any hesitation/nervousness like “oh btw I should probably let you know now that I’m an ax murderer, try to ignore all the bodies in my apartment I just haven’t chopped them up yet, you’ll get used to the smell” and exaggerate it to where she feels silly for worrying (plus I’m showing I understand what she’s thinking and what it’s like for a girl etc), or the reverse “I hope you’re not an ax murderer, I knew it this was all a trap and I’m falling right into it” putting it on HER.

“we went to walk to icecream place. Its maybe a 10 minute walk away. Tried to hold hands but it didn;t work. Lol. Hard to describe. Don’t think she even noticed, but I basically missed her hand and grabbed nothing. So I just pretended nothing happened and waited until later to try for more kino.”

lolol No way to know what to read from that. But if you did actually try to go for her hand and she wriggled out of it, I would just interpret that as her being nervous to be touching a guy in public beacuse of her probably more repressed upbringing. Like holding hands with a boy is no big deal to a random white chick in our culture but for some ESL chick with strict parents that shit might be asking too much compliance too soon. A lot of my asian friends you can’t even tell they’re couples lol they don’t even sit beside eachother when they eat. I’m the reverse I’m a huge PDA guy with my arm around my girls in public letting them cuddle up to me etc

“Girl getting ansty, so I show her where the place is. Kino, put my arm over her shoulder and then point out with my other hand where it is.”

Solid read of her mood/thoughts and pre-emptively comforting her while escalating Kino slightly. With an ESL asian chick you probably don’t even need more Kino than that (to avoid triggering ASD)

“(so glad I got all these worked out beforehand lol)”

HEAR THAT SCRIBBLERG? πŸ˜‰ lol Get the training wheels down and then go off into improv territory when your improv will be tighter and have more direction because you used those training wheels.

“I said this was VERY important because if she picked wrong I was just gonna ditch her right there.”

Good, this is A3 stuff. You’ve clearly got A2 with her even coming with you, so now you’re causing her minor “oh no I might still lose him!” vibes even though the whole thing is silly, and the reason is silly, and she KNOWS it’s silly…BECAUSE she has A2, she’ll still roleplay that it’s a big deal in her mind. VS if you didn’t have A2 and she would be like “uh I don’t care”

“She said “well what is the wrong answer” and I said “lol If I tell you that you know what not to choose.” so she said vanilla and I started to walk away then lol. She laughed and I came back and said “I’m just messing with you.””

lol perfect. Lots of good stuff here. Her asking what the wrong answer is is an IOI, like she doesn’t REALLY care but she kind of DOES care a liiiittle. And the walk away as if she answered wrong gives a good little “omg!!” emotional spike etc

When you get into the nightclub scene dealing with cocky chicks that’s where you’d actually walk away and open another girl in front of her to leave her going “wtf!!” and make her chase you lol but that’s overkill here.

“Ordered mine, paid for it, got my icecream. Then she ordered hers (made her buy her own of course).”

Good. It’s subtle but she hasn’t EARNED you buying her ice cream yet.

“Black girl by us. So I chatted with black girl for about a minute. Good convo, got her to like me.”

Good, preselection. Girls love when we’re out and I chat with random people, guy or girl, young or old, and charm them. It makes them feel like “oh wow I’m with The Prize!! And he’s choosing ME!!”

“So I got faux upset and said “That was VERY RUDE of you to say you were giving us free chicken fingers only to lie and take it back. Can you belive this girl?” Don’t remember exact wording but it got the worker laughing a bunch — think back to the “just buy me a cookie” with those two black chicks keeled over laughing “OMG!” — same level here”

lol you and I have the same type of humor. I do this shit all the time. “Do you want X?” “What you mean you aren’t just GIVING me X?” “lol what no” “I can’t believe you promised me X and are taking it back” “lol what!!” “HEY EVERYONE THIS GIRL IS SO MEAN SHE PROMISED ME X AND–” etc etc telling them I’m going to write a letter to their manager etc

That confusing “wait that’s not what I said, omg he’s just making stuff up now lolol now he’s causing a scene omg ahhh!!” rollercoaster is killer.

Here’s a great example of it that you’ll probably love (my game often looks like this):

The part where he pretends she’s robbing him and gets her flustered is that kind of thing. The whole thing is also a good example of changing her mood not her mind, he doesn’t try to really debate her he just pumps her with BT-spiking stuff (including a Three Stooges poke lol) and leads.

“Asian girl was very impressed. I think she said around here something like “wow you know everyone” Something along the lines of that I chatted with everyone.”

lol you have tons of value to her at this point. Remember that as your value goes up, you may have to either purposely lower your value (self-depreciation humor or sincerely (or make shit up lol) admitting flaws/weakness), or purpsely raise HER value (qualify her on something easy where whatever she says is the right answer and you’re impressed, or compliment something about her that isn’t her looks etc) so she feels like she DESERVES you (but just barely), or she may disqualify HERSELF and you lose her (which is surreal when it happens lol).

“So I will save it for seduction.”

lol ya with an asian ESL like that you can probably tone the sexuality down a lot, save it for isolation in a sex location. It might be too much for her to even process let alone be comfortable with.

“Then I remembered –>the bank robber DHV. She liked that one.”

Just want to point out that while this may sound like you’re just doing all the talking and selling yourself to her etc, with an ESL shy chick you might HAVE to do most of the talking like this, so don’t stress it. Like pickup usually starts out with you doing 90% of the talking and then over time it gets down to 70% then 50% and ideally like 25%. But with a shy ESL who’s not used to having to hold conversations with random handsome strangers just keep letting her experience who you are and wait for her to slowly get comfortable and come out of her shell more, lob her some easy conversational pitches to hit (like comparing places you two have lived, etc)

“I see how “world traveler” is a dhv now lol”

lol it’s funny how they extrapolate too. If a girl who’s just met me sees me talk to a few people, she assumes everyone everywhere likes me. If she sees me talk to more people, she assumes EVERYONE there knows me. If she sees me talk to LOTS of people, she assumes I must own the venue or have been a regular for years or something. Even though I don’t actually know anyone lol

“Teased her that she was trouble. Ongoing theme was that she seeeemed like a cute little girl (which she legit is, she’s pretty straight and narrow) but that she actually lied all the time and was starting fights and shit. I just misinterpreted everything she did as in that vein lol.”

This is a good one for shy/quiet girls because often they WISH they were a little bit more “trouble” but are just wrapped in layers of social conditioning and shyness etc and can’t really let that side of them out, and this kind of teasing can let them roleplay “yay I’m cool for once!! even if it’s pretend!!” lol

Also it works into the concept of labelling. If you give someone a label, they’re more likely to try to live up to that label. So when you approach girls saying “you girls seem friendly”, they’re more likely to BE friendly because that’s the label they’re being viewed as. So when you label this shy girl as “trouble”, she’s more likely to let whatever “bad girl” side of her she has out, which is where her sexual side is gonna be.

“Good vibe here. Lots of back and forth. Talked a LONG time here, maybe 45min. Generally was good — it died down in patches, but for the most part she was very engaged and was teasing me back and forth.”

All sounds solid to me. You have enough Attraction here to theoretically fuck her, but she would probably have a lot of ASD/LMR to deal with so you’d probably need more time with her to get to where she’s comfortable hooking up.

“That she didn’t think they actually happened.”

lol either way they don’t REALLY care if they actually happened. If I DID just make the story up, and I have A2, I’ll usually just confess “ya I just wanted to flirt with you I can’t believe you fell for it” etc because at THAT point she’s EARNED my interest…if I confess I was flirting right away BEFORE she’s earned it, that can work (direct game and all) but it’s giving her a lot of value right away based on just her looks since I can’t know anything else about her. But if I make that exact same confession when she has lots of A2, then she LOVES it because she’s Attracted and is happy I was interested in her.

“Walk back to bookstore. She is walking very close to me, almost shoulder to shoulder. Go for her hand. She gets weirded out “I’m not drunk.” In vietnam apparently they only hold hands to escort a drunk person to safety lol.”

lol that was random but either way whether she’s lying or not, she’s indicating “I’m not comfortable with that yet”, and this is good calibration on your part:

“I just told her that is what people did in america, hold hands, it was nothing. I let go of her hand when she got weireded out, waited a bit (30 sec maybe) then went back to grab her hand and she was okay with it.”

A LOOOOOOOOT of guys will try to stick to the plan SO HARD that they’ll try to convince her “oh it’s nothing here” and keep trying to MAKE her hold their hand, because they have shitty calibration and they think “but if I can’t hold her hand then I can’t escalate” etc

So what you did was perfect, back off to show that you get it, but then try again later, no big deal. This is what we do with LMR too, if she resists, back up a step or two, stay there till she’s more comfortable, then try escalating again when she’s more comfortable.

These little calibrations also demonstrate to her that if she’s uncomfortable, you’ll sense it and back off…which is reassuring when it comes time for sex because you’ve been demonstrating to her that if she’s uncomfortable with the sexual escalation, you’ll be aware of that and back off until she’s ready, so she can trust you.

“Wanted to know logistics. So I asked her something about a roomate. Like we were talking about movies and I said “what movies does your roomate like.” and it was like I struck her with a thunderbolt “how did you know I have a roomate?!?!””

lol Good, logistics are key. You’re getting the general strategy/roadmap for this down, like you have a good understanding of what needs to happen in your sets. When you get to a better city you’re going to be starting with a HUGE skillset/experience advantage over other guys who are starting out there or who would’ve waited to get to a better city before doing any of this.

“Store closed so we went back out.”

lol note that she was just taking a break from studying and now she’s off on an adventure with you. A lot of guys would have ended the set early off the intial interaction accepting “well she has to get back to studying!” but if you’re there face to face in person and there’s enough attraction, just push it, she can fail an exam or go to work tired, it’ll be an adventure. And if she won’t, then at least you’ve shown intent and you can back up and Time Bridge to hang out again.

“I Leaned up against a pillar while we talked a bit more. Asked for her number and thats when she just handed me *her* phone and told me to punch in my number. Yeah I know thats not the same as *her* bringing up the number first, but the way she did it gave the impression that she *really* wanted my number.”

lol not quite the same but good enough. You’ve done enough here that the number should be fine. And because she’s ESL asian shy, you MIGHT have been able to just keep hanging out and then walk her to a sex location but it’s hard to say. She might NEED a second hangout to give her emotions time to process this whole thing. There are exceptions obviously but if she was skiddish about sex stuff then proooobably more risk of LMR/blueballs/Buyers Remorse, etc

“Did a bit of having her chat with me over the phone . . . but she wasn’t as into it since there were a few more people around and she was shy (around other people, she wasn’t so shy around me alone).”

Ya, probably just her shy personality. But calibrate to it: don’t push too far in public, push further in private. So when you plan a Day2 you obviously pick the dark quiet empty lounge or the isolated walk in the park etc, over the crowded restaurant or busy walk through the high-traffic center of the city.

“Set up place, day, and time for our next meetup. I had her repeat this MANY times lol. In fact, I made her jot down a note for it in her phone. Kino — I put my arm around her shoulder and then dictated to her what to write down in her phone.”

lol good. It seems retarded/excessive, but in 2016 the average hot girl is going to have a lot of stimulus coming in. This chick as an average ESL shy asian chick probably doesn’t have as much, like she probably doesn’t have a big social circle and shit…but there’s no DOWNside to Time Bridging hard like that. She’s attracted to you in that moment so it doesn’t come off as insecure (as long as you’re making it fun and not like “because girls always ditch me :(” lol).

“ehhh. this is a good time to kiss close, but there are people around, not really any secluded spots, girl is kinda iffy — she’s the shy asian type so hard to push these things here”

lol good calibration in that you can tell she needs isolation to feel comfortable escalating to PDAs like that, and you’re not IN isolation, so probably better to NOT pull that trigger and give her a reference experience of turning you down…save it for isolation.

“This is where my day two is awesome — it ends in that VERY private garden that is perfect for making out. You could maybe even fuck there — but that you’d have to plan out a bit more lol. But it is definitely solid for doing a quick kiss here and there.”

Yup perfect. You don’t NEED to kiss in the initial interaction. Like I say I rarely do Kino in my sets until we’re basically in my apartment. Before that there’ll be an arm-in-arm romantic walking and MAYBE a kiss in isolation on our walk, but I won’t do much more than that because that’s enough to show that it’s on and that I’m comfortable escalating.

“I pushed to go to her place. we had talked a fair amount about her major and what her paper was about. She thought I was smart. So here I told her I could come over and help out with her paper.”

lol solid attempt. Again a lot of guys would view the number close as a goal and just not even bother trying to keep the instadate going, and as a result they lose a lot of lays they could’ve had if they pushed just a little further (then the girl flakes and they don’t get the lay at all lol)

“She was resistant — I’m sure her roomate is probably there. That’s a big obstacle I will have to work around.”

This is probably a big part of it. Plus you grabbed her out of nowhere so who knows what’s going on down below (period, hairy bush, hasn’t shaved her legs etc). Maybe she ate some bad burritos earlier in the day who knows lol

But she can fix all of those things for a Day2…but the roommate thing is something she can’t just get rid of. So on the Day2 if you DO get hestiation at going back to her place, don’t necessarily chalk it up to a lack of attraction/interest, it’s probably a roommate thing. There are some roommates that will have none of having rando hookups over, and as a shy girl it could be embarrassing for her etc etc

If she has time to plan, she can maybe ask the roommate to not be there, but that in itself is basically “being a slut” so it’s hard to say how her ASD will react to that.

“Maybe run my day 2. kiss close. then set up a day 3 to go over to her place when her roomate isn’t there to watch a movie (which I can set up throughout my day 2 — we pass a movie shop so I can drop movies in there. also already know the movies she likes anyway) and thats when I can bang her.”

Not bad, with a shy girl with complicated logistics I’m not against having to do a Day3 to get the lay ’cause she might need that time.

But something to try might be pitching “When is a good time for you?” for the Day2…ie – you’re allowing her to say “tuesday afternoon” or “friday night” based on when she knows her roommate won’t be around, without either of you verbalizing “SO NO ONE SEES ME FUCK YOUR BRAINS OUT” lol Like I would go with her schedule in this case VS trying to set the schedule yourself, because of the logistics, the same way with married girls or girls living with their BFs, I’ll let them set the schedule because they have to juggle when their hubby will be home or when she can get a babysitter or when she can lie and say she’s at her BFFs in a believable way etc

Like I think you can escalate this to sex on the Day2 (what’s your plan to go from the garden makeout to her place? Have a plan for that incase it goes better than you expect) if the Day2 happens on a day/afternoon/evening/night of the week that SHE picks where her roommate isn’t going to be home.

And if her roommate is a shut-in who’s always there 24/7 you can try teasing her like you would with a BF/hubby: “will your roommate get mad at you for having a boooooy over lol are you gonna get in trouble, no boys allowed in your apartment lol” or “are you ALLOWED to have booooys over? Such a trouble-maker” etc where you’re keeping it light-hearted but implying that she doesn’t have freedom.

And if her roommate will bitch her out for it and is a shut-in there 24/7 so there’s never a time where she’s not there, you might be able to pitch a role-play about sneaking you in ninja style so she never finds out, or find a different Sex Location (or build enough sexual tension etc (tons of laser eye-contact and cut the space even if you don’t kiss, just leaving that butterflies in the stomach feeling with her) to where she says “fuck my roommate, let’s go” lol)

My after-care text for girls in those situations by the way is something like “that was fun, hope we didn’t get you in trouble ;)”

“Are writing your paper or did you follow me home?”

lol perfect. Setting yourself as the prize, her as the stalker, callback humor to the interaction etc etc

“What? Im in your closet”

Beautiful. And note how now that she’s comfortable she’s playing along with your roleplays and stuff when initially she just stared at you like “uhh what is happening??” lol You shouldn’t have a problem closing this. Also note that she picked your closet instead of like, outside your house. I think you should push for the lay at the end of your Day2 instead of waiting for a Day3. Let her pick the time for the Day2 so she can work around her roommate.

““See. I knew you were a stalker ;)”

on the instadate, she teased me about ME stalking her, and I would flip it on her that SHE was crazy and SHE was stalking me. we just had this thing lol. so I was referencing that. ”


“but no response to this. got a little worried that she might have misinterpreted that as me telling her to kinda fuck off (I hate texting so much lol) so I added maybe 15 min later”

NO YOU HOMO DAMMIT lol You had a WINKY FACE. No one misinterprets a WINKY FACE lol If you didn’t have that, then maaaaaaaybe. But like, you didn’t need this text. ’cause what happens? Now you feel EXTRA worried because now it’s TWO texts she hasn’t responded to when it could’ve just been one lol

Don’t second guess yourself. Trust that she’s fully in A2, you ran solid game through that whole interaction. Trust your value.

And let HER have the last word in the conversation and worry that you might have misundertood her and lost interest in her so she sends another one, so that she’s relieved when you DO txt her the next day after she spent all night obsessing/worrying, ya know? Golden rule: You don’t have to respond to every text.

“I’ll ping her again a bit closer to the day 2 to check on things. Worried she’ll flake like they always do . . . but those other ones I only talked to for about 3 min, whereas with this chick it was more like 90, and I took her to a few venues. So just have to wait and see.”

It would surprise me if she flaked, based on the FR. But that doesn’t mean you can’t still fuck it up with clingy insecure text game lol Keep cool, this should be no problem.

“uuuuuuggh. wanna fuck this girl bad.”

lol it’s nice to hear that from you about a girl in your city finally. But remember the movie analogy: you both KNOW what the ending is going to be, so don’t fast-forward to it…just enjoy the movie, enjoy your Day2, enjoy the escalation, etc

Props on your progress man. You are running technically solid game in general. There are some holes and stuff to fill in (like having ways to reliably spike BT when you need to and thinking on the fly etc) but overall you’re grasping this whole thing a lot faster than most newbies do.

on September 9th, 2016 at 4:22 pm
Original Link

“You want to focus on concentrations of guys having problems ( deadbedroom reddits and the like…) and then hold them up for all to see as some kind of Standard.”

Statistically they are becoming the standard. Maybe your relatioship is fine, maybe your buddies are fine, but statistically we are seeing an increase in guys having those problems. It’s not me trying to dwell on negativity any more than the inventor of the seat belt saying “you know what, people keep dying and that trend isn’t going down, maybe we should come up with a way to help reduce that stat”.

“It is insulting to try and tell someone that they just don’t know what their kids are doing, if they happened to actually put in the work of trying to be a good and aware parent. Everyone doesn’t raise dumb, sneaky, random dick suckers. Lol.”

No, but logically you are not inside your kids’ head 24/7 every day and a TON of parents think they know what’s happening in their kids lives and turn out to have daddy goggles on.

That’s not an attack, that’s BASIC LOGIC.

It’s like me saying “I’m really good at playing the guitar” and someone going “I know the song sounds good to you in your head but sometimes it doesn’t sound as good as you imagine it’s sounding” and then me going “FUCK YOU MAN THAT’S A FUCKING INSULT WHY ARE YOU INSULTING MY GUITAR FUCK YOU I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT GUITARS YOU FUCKING KEYBOARD JOCKEY WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE IMPLYING THAT MY GUITAR SKILLS ARE ANYTHING BUT ABSOLUTE PERFECTION 24/7!!!”

None of that emotional outrage changes that, logically and/or statistically speaking, it’s possible that you’re not playing the guitar as well as you think. How many people go up on stage or onto American Idol and shit thinking they’re awesome and everyone else is like “dude wtf”. You aren’t infallable and my pointing that out isn’t some kind of direct insult to lose your shit over.

Like, fucking relax. You guys take this shit as direct personal attacks on your marriages and families and life choices but we’re not attacking you any more than we’re saying “everyone who ever used Windows 95 was stupid and retarded and we spit on them, because Windows 95 is outdated now”

“Two photos? LOL how many gazzilion videos on Tyler did you post alone? Let alone their youtube channels etc. I’m willing to believe video evidence, unless like you know from the inside it is all a scam or something?”

lol wut? I don’t know what you’re asking dude lol Tyler and Nick are both probably pretty happy, but we don’t know much about Nick because he hasn’t spent much time in the public eye compared to Tyler, and Tyler seems about as happy as a man can be. No idea why you’re even bringing their lives up lol

“Is it threatening that Kho is married?”

What? Why would it be threatening? I’ve said before that the PUA community doesn’t really follow MRA/Manosphere stuff about what’s happening in marriage, family courts, etc so a lot of them still have the Blue Pill happy ending marriage goal in mind.

Nick making an uninformed or statistically bad decision doesn’t threaten me lol I hope it works out for him. Having a jillion dollars and access to direct coaching from some of the best PUAs on the planet will probably help him beat the odds but that’s not the situation for 90% of men.

“LOL… men have had less risky alternative (according to Marriage 1.0 Old Books Fair deal) for dozens of centuries and the majority still did not reproduce. Take a spin around the Arabian Peninsula, India, Death Row tonight etc. Not every guy gets A girl let alone pick and choose any girl. Nature.”

Cool, so then let’s just stack more odds against them, seems logical to me. “Hey man, this is risky, so let’s just raise the risks up to 11 and bet everything on it, instead of finding less-risky solutions, because that makes sense” The machismo/bravado stuff is so dumb lol

“Just because you don’t think something is a good idea for you, doesn’t mean that it is dumb, unrealistic and dead.”

Give me any reason, any at all, why it would be a good idea for a man in 2016.

“Just because you choose to consistently reject the other side of the argument, does not render that argument invalid. Ever.”

There IS no other side of the argument, just a bunch of guys who won’t answer this simple question: in what way would it be a good idea for a man with a girl in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy?

Any answer at all. Anything. I WANT to listen to this “other side of the argument” but all you guys do is dodge this simple question:

“What benefit is there for a man dating a girl in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy?”

@Anonymous Reader
“Kinda funny how nobody had any comment about the tampon brigade at Brown university. There’s your UMC, your leaders of tomorrow, making sure that trannies have a tampon in the men’s room when they need it.”

lol anyone who thinks the UMC is the pinnacle of civilization needs to spend some time in the MRA/SJW world and see what’s happening at these prestigious campuses the last few years.

“You can go outside and stare at the tires on your car and confuse the shit out of yourself regarding their function, or you can objectively figure out what you’re looking at, sans 1,000 possibilities.” “I only suggest that guys don’t over complicate things. I NEVER say JUST DO WHAT I DID. Do whatever you want, but do something instead of constant, never ending fantasizing and questioning. Move forward.”

We are trying to but when we try to you tell us it’s over-complicating things.

“Bro, you gotta learn this new Windows 10.”

“Okay, what are the new features”


“Well, I’d like to EXCEL at this system I’ve been given, I know the basics are the same but there’s a lot of new interface stuff and things have been renamed and repositioned and they’ve added a button that will delete your entire hard drive if you accidentally click it that Win 95 didn’t have and–”


Ok there lol

@Anonymous Reader
“This whole social media thing reminds me of when Scrib flat out refused to believe that camgirls exist and that they bank coin, despite YaReally rubbing his nose in the truth.”

lol it’s the exact same thing. Same with Blax’s adventures in understanding social conditioning. I’m so used to it ’cause I get this pushback every fucking time but it’s still SUCH a waste of time/energy going through this whole:

“it’s changed”


“trust me it’s changed”


“but seriously, everyone who’s out there doing this stuff sees that it’s changed”


“I know but this is a different time and you’re not doing the things these guys are trying to do”


“I’m not, I’m just saying like, this is observable shit”



Followed EVENTUALLY by:

“so I went out and looked at that thing YaReally said and it turns out he was right”

…when someone actually goes out and tests it. The only reason I GO through this process EVERY fucking time for a million pages, is because it muddies the knowledge base when incorrect ideas that don’t hold up infield or are outdated or aren’t tested and contradict the rest of the knowledge base, are allowed to pass on as accurate. It gives guys reading and future guys inaccurate information to navigate the world with.

Meanwhile if any of these guys tried to LTR a 2016 girl they’d find out the same shit ScribblerG did about cam girls and Blaximus did about social conditioning and his social media street interviews: YaReally is always right about everything forever. (…lol THAT WAS A JOKE YOU GUISE)

That’s why I’m happy when Blaximus goes out and tests shit. Because aside from that everything else is “don’t you DARE question how much I know about the world!!!” just like scrib ADAMANTLY refusing to believe that his 5-years-ago knowledge of the camgirl scene could be outdated.


“If I’ve learned one thing by unlearning old things in order to learn new ones, it’s this: “I don’t understand (thing) so it can’t be true” is not a logical argument. It’s an emotional reaction. We men are taught for good reason to keep our emotions in check, right? ”

Fucking THIS. This is why we go by the field, because the field has no emotion. It just is what it is.

““It would be great if every guy could become a super boss, but the reality is they won’t.”

But, honest opinion? The average guy is hosed. No way out. No, I’m not being defeatist and I’m still working the Big Board at strategy, but for any guy now alive – it’s done. Things can be changed (and you say you’re about adaptation, not change), but it’s going to get worse before it gets better.”

I don’t disagree, but I’m an optimist. If you looked at me in my early 20s, you would have said I was hosed too. If I saw that me right now, I would be like “dude is hosed” lol Hell if you look at scribblerg’s early writing when he was in his “trying to get this coffee table built” phase, or Softek in his initial posts or Scray in his initial posts or Sun Wukong in his depressed phase a while back or Hank early on or early pre-game Tyler or any number of other guys, we’d think “man, these guys just don’t have what it takes to make the cut”.

But PUA is about beating the odds and taking guys that seemingly have NO chance, and helping them build the tools or unchain the tools that would give them a chance, and maybe even better than a chance.

So I can’t accept that there’s no solution and all we can offer men is either this broken flawed system that is statistically and anecdotally getting worse and worse in all areas across the board, or the Krauser/Roosh PUA-for-life-no-kids-no-reproduction-no-stable-household-parenting system.

Those aren’t good enough answers to me. I can agree and know that they might fail, but I can’t idly accept that as the default and allow it if there are opportunities to help fix it.

@Sun Wukong @Blaximus
“No. Some things are objectively bad ideas. Having sex with HIV patients. Screaming racial epithets as a white guy rolling through Compton on a moped. Punching cops in the dick. Sticking your dick in a light socket. Getting married as a man in the 21st century. These are all quantifiably poor ideas.”

lol this.

If someone said “maybe sticking your dick in a light socket isn’t for YOU but that doesn’t mean it’s dumb”, my first question would be “okay, name a benefit from it.”

When their answer is “BRO IT’S FINE IF IT’S NOT FOR YOU BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S NOT FOR SOME MEN IF THEY WANT IT TO BE” then like, how can I not just assume they haven’t really thought this through?

Now if they could list some benefits, I could go “oh that’s interesting, let’s look at those and see if we can achieve those benefits without the dick frying in a light socket part”

But they can’t list any more objective benefits for men in 2016 with women in 2016 to do these things than someone could list for sticking their dick in a light socket.

That ALONE says a lot.

“And again, I’m not making an argument against commitment or child-rearing or any of that if that’s your thing. Those are great things if they’re what you want. I’m making an argument against voluntarily putting yourself in an incredibly vulnerable legal position for no gain whatsoever.”

This. I am all in favor of a stable 2-parent household raising kids in a long-term relationship. And I am ACTIVELY TRYING TO GET SOME NEW PLANS GOING that will give guys the highest possible odds of doing that in 2016 with 2016 girls.

But that doesn’t require a legal noose or promising monogamy and the old men come stomping in about negativity and just don’t discuss it because it’s overcomplicating and just be alpha like we did.

I’m really surprised at the pushback, I was fully expecting this, of all places, to be the place that a discussion like this would be appropriate and enthusiastic. But it looks like a lot of guys just want reassurance that they’re awesome and because their lives are fine hey, fuck other guys, who cares, pussies should’ve just been badasses like them.

“So there are no circumstances where you’d say a man can manage marriage successfully?”

No, I think he CAN. But I think it’s SIGNIFICANTLY and statistically more difficult TO manage it successfully in 2016, and NO ONE has provided ANY reason to even *TRY* to win that roll of the dice because no one can name any benefit to it.

You can probably survive slapping a bear and then putting your dick in it’s mouth to bite off. But there is no benefit TO rolling that dice.

In 5 pages now, no one has named a single benefit to it that makes it worth even TRYING to “manage successfully”. We can list dozens of negatives/downsides and NO ONE has named a single benefit that you can’t get WITHOUT legal marriage or promising monogamy.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

(leaving out the rest of your questions because they’re based on an innacurate summary of my position lol)

“Yareally used to talk a lot about his Reversion Theory… he should dust it off because this is actually happening.”

I would love if it happened. And it might happen in certain communities/areas. But I’m focused on the 90% of men, not just your friends, that’s all.

And hearing that that’s happening out there is GREAT, I hope that spreads like wildfire. And who knows maybe it WILL happen. But it will be a long time away for 90% of men, probably a couple generations of cat ladies before it’s widespread and it’ll have to happen minus the religious influences and against social pressures for them to do the opposite and there’s no guarantee other factors won’t fuck that up at some point. So I don’t think we can rely on it happening across the board for 90% of men in our lifetimes yet.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

“The concept of AFC’s and Beta’s is well excepted around here…except when it comes to any kind of monogamous relationship.”

Please re-read this multiple times:

NO ONE is saying that Alpha/Beta doesn’t exist.

NO ONE is saying that the way to keep a woman attracted, single, in an LTR, in a monoLTR, in a marriage, etc, is to be Alpha/high-value/trigger her Hypergamy.


What we are saying is that social changes have occurred which make it:

1) more difficult to DO Alpha things without having meddling outsiders paint it as negative/abuse

2) no longer beneficial to legally or monogamously commit because there are no benefits to now, only risks

and 3) there are more influences pushing for relationships to NOT work out

That’s it.


I get it, being alpha rules. It makes women attracted and want to stay with you. WE AGREE WITH THAT. So why bother with the legal contract and promising monogamy? Why not just BE alpha, just like you say, without adding a noose to your neck that will make it harder to BE alpha? Why not just NOT put on the noose (that there are NO benefits to), and have a much easier time being alpha with much less risk involved.

It’s like I’m in Bizarro World here. How does what I just wrote here not make sense to you guys???

“I only propose that if a man wants to succeed”

At WHAT? At having a 2-parent household that you can raise healthy kids in with a long-term partner? To succeed at THAT? You don’t need legal marriage or promised monogamy to succeed at that.

“Not everyone is cut out for success”

At WHAT? Is “making a lopsided-contract that you didn’t have to enter” success to you? Why not just NOT enter that contract and still have ALL OF THE BENEFITS?? lol

Like Sun Wukong said to Scribblerg: “The consequence for Game failure in the club is you don’t get laid tonight. The consequence for Game failure in a non-married LTR is you don’t fuck that chick anymore. The consequence for Game failure in marriage… well you’re already familiar with that shit. It’s more than any man should have to pay. The risk/reward doesn’t make any sense.”

This. Like, how do you guys not grasp this simple basic risk/reward logic?

If you guys could spout off a bunch of benefits to marriage or promising monogamy, that you can’t get without legal marriage or monogamy, I would be the FIRST ONE to be like “wow, okay so there IS a benefit to it then, that’s interesting maybe I’m wrong!”

But you guys have NOTHING. You want guys to take risks for no reason, like “oh then they’ll be REAL MEN”, that’s full out FI conditioned shit right there.

“Seriously, it’s experiences like yours that make it really clear why marriage is a bad idea. You did it all right and still got fucked over by circumstances beyond your control. I’d say that argument pretty much makes itself.”

Yup. I’m not saying my plan proposals are going to guarantee success. They just follow attraction principles better (as soon as someone with a deadbedroom comes along we tell him to do the exact same things I’m recommending here, like stoking dread game etc), and minimize the risks as low as possible.

@Anonymous Reader
“I can see around me in my social circle women in their 30’s and 40’s women who married in their late 20’s, had some children, and who now have a bit of that “what did I miss out on?” look about them. Now 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, those women would just talk to each other & probably take out their frustrations on their husbands. Smart ones would get a book or three and read it, and maybe try to spice up marriage at some romantic getaway.

But now in the world of Ashley Madison and other sites, it may be different. I can’t tell if any of them are acting out their fantasies, but it’s not impossible.”

This. Like I say, in the PAST a lot of these things weren’t significant problems. But now with technology, shit can hit the fan a lot easier. I bring up the virgin thing because that’s HOW I bang girls who settled early (like have a boyfriend from highschool still or a virgins or 1 other partner etc). You just pitch it like you feel bad for them missing out on experiencing life like all their friends, and their friends and society are helping me push her to experience everything she missed out on because it justifies their own life choices and sells movies etc

I get the whole “teach her stuff in bed” and everything is a kick for some guys who like virgins, and that’s cool whatever floats your boat. But I think there’s also a lot of guys who think a girl being a virgin will be a buffer against her straying and in a past society maybe that was true, but now in 2016 it’s not something I’d bank on.

@Anonymous Reader @IAS
“She’s a woman, and like Andy said, what she wants in her hindbrain is to be dominated and knocked up by a man who is attractive to her.”

Maybe I misread but my impression was that IAS doesn’t want kids at all…? If that’s the case then he should probably cut her loose to find a guy who does ’cause she’s going to want them as the clock ticks.

“It is the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.”

This is the first time I’ve seen anyone talking about monogamy being dead, or coming up with alternative plans to it, or discussing the actual commonlaw nuances or financial costs of handling stuff that marriage would normally handle.

We can’t all know everything like you. A lot of this discussion is new, except for the stuff you guys keep making us rehash over and over because you can’t get past the idea that people would actually question the way things were done in your time.

“On your present course, with your present tactics, you will NEVER solve the problem that you speak of.”

Well you’re sure not going to share the answers with us, you’re too busy keeping them secret so they don’t face any scrutiny or analysis and telling us we’re all retards for not just knowing all the secrets of the universe like you.

So what do you WANT us to do? We have to figure shit out because you won’t share and what you DO share ends up being stuff we already agree with that you think we don’t, or doesn’t hold up under analysis for men in 2016.

“But hey, you could always just kidnap girls and chain them up in your basement.”

See, NOW you’re brainstorming.

“If it doesn’t to you you don’t do it.”

It doesn’t to any man anymore, is our point. It shouldn’t be considered an option. None of you can list the reward that makes the risk worth it.

That’s a good list of Risks and Rewards there. Now keep going but do it for this one:

Risk/Reward of getting legally married and/or promising monogamy for a man in 2016?

Let’s hear it! What do ya got?? We have TONS of stuff to put in the Risk side, so you just have to fill in the Reward side with some rewards that a man can’t get without legal marriage and/or promising monogamy. I’m dying to hear! Anything at all! From anyone!

@Sun Wukong
“You know what we call somebody who knowingly takes a legal arrangement that fucks them over to the exclusive benefit of the other party? A sucker. A fool. A dipshit.”

lol it’s surreal how in ANY other important category this would be a no-brainer, but when it comes to this specific category it’s “JUST TAKE INSANE RISKS WITH NO REWARD AHHHH!!!!” The social conditioning is strong.

“But hey, you guys wanna advise dudes to be suckers I guess that’s cool. I mean it’s dickheaded, but if it makes you feel good:”

I just don’t get why guys don’t want to find a better solution for their fellow man. One of those “I had to do it the hard way so other guys should have to” things?

“It’s possible to point out that somebody is objectively wrong. Replies after that are simply gainsay without merit, whether due to deeply held beliefs or just sheer stubbornness. That’s not argument. That’s just childish foot stamping and saying “NUH-UH!””

This. You can disagree, SURE, fucking GO FOR IT. But disagree with some kind of logical benefits to legal marriage and/or promised monogamy. If you don’t have any then you are just going “NUH-UH!!!!” We’re sitting here listing all sorts of logical downsides and stats and attraction principles and common sense, and the rebuttal is “…NUH-UH!!!”

@Anonymous Reader
“YaReally is asking what alternatives to the standard one-sided contract exist. He’s not gotten much of a logical answer, but lots and lots of emotions.”

Blows my mind. I legitimately thought this would be a nice easy conversation piece when I started the dialogue. I thought the married/monogamous guys would pitch some benefits, we’d look at them and find out what can be gotten outside of legal marriage and/or promised monogamy and if we found there weren’t really any benefits to going that route, we’d all be excited to come up with new plans and ideas to help men out.

“I live about 5 miles from a group of ” Projects ” ( it may as well be in another world ) where a working model of the ” have kids, don’t marry ” is in absolute full effect. 1200 people crammed into a shitty 6 story building. The guys are indeed carefree, footloose and fancy free. They all mostly have pLTR’s, lol.”

Ya, it’s not a very good system hey?

A better system would be one where a man has good odds of keeping his girl attracted to him long term and staying in his kids life to raise them properly.

It’s too bad marriage doesn’t actually provide that anymore and, in fact, doesn’t provide anything that you can’t get without it.

Unless you’re suggesting if the people in those projects were legally married they wouldn’t be doing the things they’re doing.

I wonder how much better those projects would be if 50% of the men in them were even MORE poor from having to pay alimony and even MORE angry frustrated and depressed from being divorce-raped and even MORE desperately in need of money to avoid going to jail…

I’m sure there would be NO negative reprocussions from THAT lol

Maybe we need a new system…oh wait, I wouldn’t want to overcomplicate things.

Fuck Tyler was ugly lol That’s why I don’t accept the whole “some guys just won’t make the cut” thing. If THAT guy could turn out like this:

Just putting the final editing touches on this beast of an infield video release for If you'd like to experience my best program in 10 years, come join the tribe. Would love to have you along for the adventure.

A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

Then there’s hope for ANY guy lol

“Just the fact of telling a married man that marriage is suicide and doesn’t work is illogical to me.”

Maybe we’re not talking about YOUR marriage. Maybe we’re not talking to YOU. Maybe we’re not saying “YOUR marriage is suicide and YOUR MARRIAGE that was from a DIFFERENT TIME doesn’t work”.

MAYBE…Juuuuuuust maybe, we’re talking about other men besides you. MAYBE we’re saying that in 2016 (you know, that phrase I’ve stressed 100000 times in this discussion), a thing that WASN’T suicide for YOU, in YOUR time, might NOW be suicide for men NOW, in OUR time.

Wait, what? But how can the world NOT revolve around Blaximus??

If you guys could quit taking “marriage in 2016 doesn’t work” as “YOUR MARRIAGES ARE ALL STOOPID AND YOU’RE GOING TO GET RAPED AND AHHGHGHGHGHGHG” and taking it all so fucking personal we could get a lot further in the discussion.

“Why try to figure out how to have ” the benefits ” of something that one doesn’t believe in at all?”

What we’re showing is that there no longer ARE benefits. And none of you are providing evidence to the contrary because none of you can ask the simple question: what benefits are there for a man in 2016 to get legally married or promise monogamy?

Anything at all.

@Sentient @Blaximus
“I hear you loud and clear… this is an inconvenient fact for many to confront… I posted this clip of the fine young Alpha men of Baton Rouge a few weeks back just on this point… overwhelmingly from single moms… with multiple half siblings from multiple dads…”

Shit, I’ve been AVOIDING bringing up black communities because it so easily proves our point about fatherlessness and women chasing Hypergamy lol

But if you guys wanna throw the debate in our favor then ya let’s get into that lol

Question 1) will legal marriage or a man promising her monogamy prevent those women from fucking other men? Statistically is that the case? Is that the trend we’re seeing these days? That slipping a ring on her finger or promising her monogamy guarantees her undying commitment to you? Pretty sure we have a few Rollo articles about buffers on that subject…

Question 2) will legal marriage or a man promising her monogamy prevent those men from being poor? Or, since legal marriage gives her the ability to financially rape him and monogamy makes it harder to keep a girl attracted, is it more likely that these men will stay poor or be MORE poor when they’re paying alimony on TOP of child support?

Question 3) would it be better to devise a strategy for men that would allow them to maintain a long-term relationship with a girl, without risking ending up poor if it doesn’t work out (which statistically it’s a coin flip and getting worse odds every year), that these men could have executed to have good odds of raising their kids in a stable 2-parent home?

Question 4) are you implying that men need to marry and be chained down because if they aren’t controlled, they’ll get out of control? ’cause if you are, we can sign you up for an official FI-Officer badge to wear and give you the pamphlets on “men should get married because they’re more productive and make more money when they have the threat of jail dangling over their heads”

I mean, let’s start there since you guys bring it up (thanks for that, I didn’t want to risk things getting into racebait territory lol, let’s stick to just “poor people” VS “black people”, like those vids could be of another race or a bunch of white hicks but the discussion points they bring up are the same)

Looking forward to your answers guys! After that we can bring up how things like condom usage etc affect the ghettos and how legal marriage and promising monogamy will INCREASE condom usage and increase faithfullness for women (I really gotta dig out those articles by Rollo about how you can negotiate desire and commitment with women and how their love is unconditional…)

“Fathers need to be present in a child’s life.”


But you don’t want us to solve it for some reason.

“And I mean a full investment, not some kind of selfish game.”

So are you saying that if a man has a pLTR, he’s not fully invested in his kids’ lives? I mean, I just wanna make sure I’m clear on your position here because I start bringing up all the different communities and subcultures where two parents raise their kids lovingly but in their spare/private time endulge in other sexual practices.

I’m sure that’s not what you MEANT to say though, right? That would be quite the condemnation coming from a former player, that Sentient isn’t fully invested in his kids’ lives because he fucked a stripper when he was out of town. I figure we can get into the “lack of full investment in their kids’ lives” of the guys who hire strippers or have an office fling etc on the side too.

But if that’s the road you want to take this…lol

Or, is it possible that a person could be fully invested in his kids’ life, and his wife’s life, without a legal contract requiring him to, and simply do his own thing in his own private time that doesn’t affect that?

Do you think men are unable to control themselves without legal restraints and threats put on them by a court system?

“Any dad worth his salt understands that kids pick up on much more than adults realize.”

Yes, that’s why I’d like to have discussions about how to address that situation. BUT FUCK THAT THAT’S COMPLICATING THINGS.

“This is but a small part of what comes with age and being observant and thoughtful….lol.”

Guess what old man, us young assholes already KNOW that kids pick up on shit, because we’ve heard you all yapping about it for our whole lives. That’s why we’re trying to address “is there a way to present this that doesn’t damage the kid” and unless you’re going to say every kid raised in any kind of non-traditional male/female monogamous legal marriage is a fucked up damage case, then clearly there ARE ways to handle it and we could be looking at those if you weren’t shitting on us for overcomplicating things.

“Imagine if everytime you needed to know something, no one around you had any answers at all, and what meager answers you did manage to get were from people taking a guess”

I know right? How annoying would that be? On that note: what benefits are there for a guy in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy (VS voluntarily choosing to be monogamous)?

“Absentee dads can mess up kids, male and female.”

No one is promoting absentee dads. Where did you even come up with that? You do not have to be legally married or promise monogamy to spend literally 24/7 with your kid.

You are making silly emotional equivalents that “well if you’re not legally married or promising monogamy you’ll just be an ABSENTEE DAD”. No, that doesn’t even make fucking sense lol

“Why do you thinjk kids without dads PRESENT account for so much fuckery and bad shit? Just coincidence? It takes a special kid to not go bonkers under those circumstances.”


NO ONE IS ADVOCATING ABSENTEE FATHERISM. What the fuck are you smoking?? lol

“So flippant arguments for dads trying to figure ways out of responsibility does not strike me on any emotional level. It is just possibly adding to an already crazy problem.”


Jesus christ. I don’t even know how to get through to you, you’re so completely off base, it’s like you haven’t read ANYTHING in this discussion. You think we’re promoting ABSENTEE FATHERISM!??!?!?

“So when I’m approached by some fatherless thug with a 9mm, I understand that I might get shot because he has no point of reference for what it means to be a man”

Now imagine if he knew you had your wallet on you and he had to make alimony payments or go to jail.

on September 9th, 2016 at 4:34 pm
Original Link

@Andy @Blaximus
“Fathers need to be present in a child’s life. And I mean a full investment, not some kind of selfish game.”

Yeah. But how does this relate to pLTRs? The whole point of this discussion is that we are looking for a way to keep the Dad around.

Fucking THIS. How the fuck did Blaximus get that we’re promoting abandoning your children from this????

Blax is your belief that if a guy has THE OPTION of side poon (not even TAKING side poon, just not promising that he won’t ever have it), he’ll just, what, walk out on his kids? Or avoid them? What the fuck are you talking about dude.

THIS is why we’re calling your arguments emotional lol They don’t even make sense, they’re not even what we’re talking about.

@othergrain @sentient
“Risk REWARD of getting married or monogamy?”

This. Let’s hear it Sentient. Just the REWARD part, we already have a list of the risks. We’re all ears!

…what Sun Wukong said lol

@Anonymous Reader
“Sure, I get the point about projects and hood rats. Because I’m totally sure that those chodes are just like kfg; they research the law and hire attorneys and make a careful contract with their babymommas involving inheritance and all that stuff, because they are totally down with long term thinking and raising a few chlldren to competent adulthood.

I’m sure that’s your point. Because otherwise you’d be just pissing on everyone’s shoes while insisting it’s raining, right?”

Fucking lol this. Like, why would they even bring up the ghettos as an example??

Unless they really do think that not promising monogamy or legally signing a marriage contract means men will just uncontrollably run around fucking everything, getting everyone pregnant, fuck condoms, and just start shooting everything up.

Like, what?? THAT’S the lifestyle they think we’re advocating for?? No WONDER they’re fighting so hard lol

on September 9th, 2016 at 6:56 pm
Original Link

“IT’S FRIDAY WHY ARENT YOU OUT! (angry emoji)”

lol I’m sick as fuck this weekend. Yesterday too. That’s why I have 100000 posts on this thread. Stuck inside watching my phone light up with txts from people having fun and already had to turn down an FB trying to arrange a last call bootycall for later FMLπŸ˜₯ lol

“have you ever commented at Blackdragon’s? I think there could be some good conversation there on this topic”

Nah I sink enough time into this place as it is, but I have mad respect for Blackdragon. He field-tested a lot of this shit (and all my (and other guys’) field-testing of what he says falls in line with what he reported and figured out).

But I want to build off it because society has shifted since he was doing it, with this Tinder culture shit and now that the red pill is becoming more widespread VS being an underground thing. I want more iron-clad step by step strategies for that 90% of men out there, to at least use as a basic framework to explore so we can break out of the very clearly broken marriage/monogamy system. A better system means drawing more men toward the red pill which means saving more guys.

“do you have a kid yourself, maybe you don’t have custody of?”

Nope. But I have friends who are in that situation and just from going out a lot (not just to bars, but socializing everywhere) I meet guys in that situation and let them pour their souls out to me. A lot more guys than I’d like to have met, unfortunately. Plus online forums and guys on YouTube and shit sharing their stories. It sounds like one of the worst tortures in the world, to not be able to see your own kid, especially if on top of it you have a vindictive ex who’s poisoning them against you and have to work extra jobs to pay etc I don’t know how guys even survive that shit.

“Also, have you ever been in a monogamous relationship”

Yup, 2 year monoLTR after about three years of sarging and no prior relationship experience. She was a virgin and head over heels in love with me to the end. I broke it off when I decided I wasn’t happy with how far I had let myself go (without other girls and a social life (since she was a nice quiet stable girl that wanted to cuddle and stay in, not go party it up, she was only at the bar I met her at because her friends dragged her out against her will that night) there was less incentive to take care of my looks/health and keep my charisma/game sharp since going out and flirting with girls and hanging with friends was replaced with movies & chilling). And I also realized that we were looking for different things (she wanted the settle-down life with kids and I didn’t see myself wanting that anytime soon, though I had a LOT of “I’m almost 30 maybe I SHOULD settle” conditioning I had to fight against (that’s part of why I can relate to why Softek won’t leave his LTR lol) and in retrospect I made the absolute right decision for both of us and any future kids we would’ve had, cause that shit wouldn’t have ended well for anyone lol)

Wasn’t a fan of the monoLTR arrangement overall, as a framework I saw a ton of problems with the monoLTR system from a red pill perspective (all the stuff I’ve pointed out about marriage/monogamy, from making it harder to run dread, to less incentive to stay charismatic, to less incentive on her part, etc, to all the oblgations that come with the arrangement like having to hang out with her boring couple friends playing board games instead of doing fun shit lol and not being able to pursue other girls and losing my game skills and eventually not feeling attractive anymore). Also we both gained weight (because with promised monogamy why not, they’re stuck with ya) and I realized SHE had no real incentive to stay in shape since I was locked down to her with monogamy, so I was letting myself gain weight because hey if she was going to get fat then I don’t have to go get a 6-pack sure let’s order pizza and watch a movie and have fat sex lol

It was both of our first real relationship, so I had a weak frame and looking back I could have laid down the law on a lot of things, but we still wouldn’t have been a good fit long-term. A pLTR would have fixed a ton of those problems just by its structure.

If I had gotten legally married to her, shit would have been messy…legally tying myself FURTHER to her wouldn’t have made her suddenly go hit the gym, if anything that would be the OPPOSITE of dread and would just give her LESS incentive to do that because I would be even LESS likely to leave her.

After that I didn’t want to enter that monoLTR system again because I felt it was extremely flawed (and now that I understand attraction and the red pill better I can see I was right about those flaws and more that I didn’t even realize in the moment), so I decided I would try just not promising monogamy and being open/honest that I might have other girls in my own free time and basically embracing it all. Worked fucking GREAT, had a fun time with a lot of cool chicks, way more girls were cool with it than I expected, and some I’m even still in touch with now and then long-distance these days lol

And when I found a cool chick (who also was dragged to the bar by friends and didn’t drink party etc lol this stuff is why I roll my eyes when guys think all girls at the bar are wasted bar slut party animals), I entered a 2 year pLTR with her. My Fri/Sat were free to go out with my friends and sarge, and when I wasn’t at her place I was free to do my own thing with other girls. I felt INFINITELY more free/natural in that arrangement and it was pretty effortless to stay high-value through it. We were great together but she was struck with a lot of health problems that I stuck by her through (yes, despite being in a pLTR where apparently you’re selfish and don’t care about anyone else, I was going with her to the hospital when she had to go now and then and staying with her when she had rough nights and skipping the sarging when she needed me and all that shit you’d do for your wives…she wasn’t laid up all the time or anything like I wasn’t dating a corpse living in a hospital lol she just had to get some tests done every few months and a few rough surgeries and the mental wear of dwelling on potential complications etc was rough on her, but otherwise life was normal)

When she was finally clear of her health problems, the vibe in our relationship had shifted (the whole thing was just too much weight too soon for too long for us, we were only a few months into our NRE when her problems started up, she gave me an out to bail at the start but I liked her and decided to support her through it), and she had that “I could have died, I need to dramatically change my life because I have all this clarity now and realize that I hate my job and hate the city I live in and want to be closer to my family etc etc” feeling that people who go through situations like that probably have happen. And after dealing with all that heavy stuff I was ready to be single and carefree again. So we wished eachother well and she went off to find herself. Again it was the right choice for both of us.

If I had been legally married to her she would’ve taken half my stuff with her, or stayed with me and resented me for keeping her there, or I’d have had to uproot my life to go with her. Because we weren’t legally married, it was no problem to end it.

Both girls were sweethearts (in both relationships we fought MAYBE twice each and they were minor fights at most, like heated disagreements is probably a better decription lol) and somehow ironically neither were party girls, both barely drank at all and preferred to stay in and chill. How the fuck did I end up getting girls like that instead of crazy party bar stars lol I wish them nothing but the best.

I was the happiest past the NRE stage when I was in the pLTR, where I saw my girl every week (sometimes for a few days at a time) and had my Fri/Sat free to do my own thing, no guilt involved, no shame, no drama. I vividly remember sending a fuckbuddy home from my place after a romp (she was engaged to be married soon lol) then txting my GF to tuck her in and confirm plans for tomorrow, then getting txts from a new girl I met that weekend and thinking to myself “man, this is AWESOME.” lol Felt totally free and like I owned the world. Way better than the guilt/frustration I felt in a monoLTR where I had promised monogamy because that was just “what you’re supposed to do” according to my social conditioning.

“or a marriage in the past?”

Nope. But I have buddies and have met guys infield who are everything from happily in various LTRs, to miserable nightmare stories (some still in them, some escaped from them, some stuck with them for life). The happy ones are extremely rare and in pretty much every case the guy by sheer fluke is happening to follow the rules of attraction. The unhappy ones, well, I don’t wanna get all negative here but there are a few of them who I txt now and then just to make sure they’re not going to off themselves. All sorts of age ranges because I’m just so lovable.

“Like maybe before you discovered Game?”

Nope. Never even touched a girl or had more than a conversation with one before I was early 20s and found pickup. Got rejected by a girl I had a crush on when I asked her out in high school, does that count? lol If I hadn’t found PUA I 100% would have been the exact sad case that would be looking for your blog now, except I’d have a fat wife (who wasn’t hot to begin with), a couple kids that don’t respect me, a house I can’t afford but got because the wife wanted it, and probably be getting cheated on and on my way to a divorce-rape or being openly cuckolded. Almost 100% guaranteed that was my life course.

“Have you knocked up anyone lately, maybe she doesn’t want to abort it?”

Nope lol wtf But again I have friends and met guys infield who’ve been or are in that situation.

Is it really that hard for people to believe that a guy could just take the problems of his fellow man seriously enough that he thinks it’s worth helping them or helping other men he’ll never meet to try to help them achieve long-term happiness?

The PUA industry is a commercial industry now, but in the old days this information was basically free. Bootcamps cost a couch to sleep on. That Tyler Digest wasn’t behind some paywall, that was Tyler going out and sharing his field data with other guys who would go out and share their field data back so we could narrow things down into codifiable form for other men, who we didn’t even know, to learn this stuff. Because we were just excited to find a solution to something that the majority of society thought there was no solution/alternative for…it was just you either have it or you don’t. Turns out if you don’t have it you can LEARN it lol

We didn’t go “well I have MY shit handled so fuck you guys figure it out on your own” or “I already KNOW this stuff jeeze could you all stop talking about it” or “ehh we can’t save everyone so fuck it”

I come from a place of seeing other guys struggle and learning to understand where they’re struggling and why, and trying to help find solutions to consistently lessen that struggle for them. Just like I do when I break down a guy’s Field Reports…there’s no real tangible benefit to that for me. Ya it reinforces some concepts, but I could do that on my own, I don’t HAVE to write 10 pages breaking down Hank’s interactions giving him tips. Him getting laid doesn’t get MY dick wet. And in fact it takes time out of my day to DO it.

But I do it because that’s the PUA community I came from and I know how much other guys offering help changed my life, and I know what it will do for Hank’s life, just like I knew what it would do for Scribblerg’s life, and Scray’s life, etc so I’m paying it forward.

So ya, even if I’m not personally divorce-raped or have some kid I’m alienated from or have some FB knocked up, I still care about the men who ARE in those situations and I still want to help keep other men from ending up IN those situations even if those situations don’t directly affect me. Whether that’s my close friends, guys on here, guys reading this in a few years, or future generations reading this in some archive to try to figure out how to adapt to their current societal trends.

It’s hard for me to relate to the mentality I’m getting from the old guys here of “It works fine for me and that’s all that matters, you must be asking because it must affect you otherwise why would you care so much about it?”. Like, does nobody give a shit until it directly affects them personally? Why is anyone here if it’s not to ultimately help the majority of men? Just to socialize and pat eachother on the back about how enlightened we are?

Why do we care about Rollo’s books being printed and handed down for generations if we don’t care about those future generations of men we’ll never meet? How do we chastize the FI for not caring about an issue until it affects women on the one hand, and then on the other hand say “who cares about this issue that affects men, it doesn’t affect ME or MY “””Realm””””?

on September 9th, 2016 at 7:27 pm
Original Link

This was a good weekend to be stuck inside lol COME AT ME BRO

…yes, I’d imagine when you have 100000000 people doing something, the amount of them failing at it will be higher than when you have 100 people doing something.

You wanna stop waving your dick around and put up some stats on the number of marriages? You know, like your OWN ARTICLE points out:

“Some of the decline in divorce clearly stems from the fact that fewer people are getting married — and some of the biggest declines in marriage have come among groups at risk of divorce.”

Fucking lol. And from the link THEY reference:

“Men are more likely than women to remain unmarried, 23 percent to 17 percent. Part of that is linked to the fact that the share of men aged 25 to 54 who are not working has been increasing for 50 years. At the same time, 78 percent of never-married women say that a mate with a steady job would be very important to them, more than any other quality in choosing a spouse. ”

combined with:

““The men who don’t have college degrees are doing so badly in the job market that they don’t seem like good prospects to the women in their lives,””

combined with:

“Yet she said it‘s not entirely an economic phenomenon; it’s also one about shifting social roles. “I do think it has something to do with the fact that in the professional class, because men are doing very well, they aren’t threatened in any way by a wife that works or is doing very well herself,” she said.”

…equals nothing could go wrong at all with that, especially since jobs are so abundant these days lol We all know the best way to keep a woman attracted is to lay on the couch with no job earning less than her so she has to be the primary breadwinner of the family. That’s what everyone recommends right?

But right from the opening paragraph of the study itself:

“Marriage rates have also been falling, but more strikingly, the importance of marriage at different points in the life cycle has changed, reflecting rising age at first marriage, rising divorce followed by high remarriage rates”

Soooo people who DO get married are getting married to very low SMV women probably close to or past the wall. HARD TO BELIEVE THOSE ONES AREN’T FILING FOR DIVORCE lol And the ones that do work out have a rising divorce age, so great, these guys can be single at 40 after marrying a 35yo.

“that you have a 65% chance of not getting divorced if you marry today. And if you are a college grad, the chances are even better.”

Sure, if you’re a college grad, marrying a woman in her 30s, because as the actual study paper itself says, women are getting married at later ages.

“Most of the guys here are college educated, so for our purposes, you have an “average” chance of 30% of getting divorced if you marry today”

To a wall-aged woman as put forth in the study, which is what we’re all after here (I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen it recommended to date and marry 30+yo’s, hopefully with kids and baggage and alpha widow damage), yes, go on…

“sadly though, if you look carefully at the data, you’ll see that it’s really about male earning power, lower income equals higher rate of divorce since 2/3s of divorces are still initiated by women, that is pretty damning for them”

hmmmm…now why would male earning power matter. Why, to a woman approaching the wall (as shown in your study), who’s signing a contract that says IF she’s unhappy she can take half his money possibly for life, would male earning power matter?

HMMMM….it’s just so hard to figure out.

And why, to a man who has high male earning power, and has signed a contract that his wife can take half of that money, would a man NOT divorce even if he’s unhappy?


You really gotta read these things in-depth before you get so cocky dude lol

“There are some other factors. Less people are getting married and in general we marry later”

THOSE ARE PRETTY IMPORTANT FACTORS DUDE. lol The study doesn’t even take into account how many of the men in those marriages are happy and satisfied. Andy would probably have hit the divorce button if he didn’t have kids, but he’ll be in that “not divorced” stat. So will IAS who’s in a long-distance marriage he doesn’t even want to be in.

How about you pull up a study about happiness rates in men? Here’s a stat about men for you:

“Divorced men were over eight times more likely to commit suicide than divorced women (RRβ€Š=β€Š8.36, 95% CIβ€Š=β€Š4.24 to16.38). After taking into account other factors that have been reported to contribute to suicide, divorced men still experienced much increased risks of suicide than divorced women. They were nearly 9.7 times more likely to kill themselves than comparable divorced women (RRβ€Š=β€Š9.68, 95% CIβ€Š=β€Š4.87 to 19.22). Put another way, for every divorced woman that committed suicide, over nine divorced men killed themselves.”

Even IF they were talking about marrying hot young babes in their prime in 2016, do you think a 35% chance of going through what you went through is something we should be cool with? When for every point of that 35% failure rate *9* dudes kill themselves?

When we could come up with a system that has almost no chance of more guys ending up like you did? Encouraging them not to legally marry, collect evidence of being a better primary caregiver from day one so they get the kids, etc?

It’s like your argument is “well it’s only 99% chance of being raped so GO FOR IT BROS!” lol

But props for trying.

on September 9th, 2016 at 8:14 pm
Original Link

“Then you are going to have to find an interest in changing the system, because the second a guy has a kid, he’s in the system.”

That’s the one sticking point. Literally the ONLY point where a man can’t walk away (if he doesn’t legally volunteer to get married in 2016 like an idiot), is when they have a kid. That’s the ONE point where the girl has him by the balls (unless he volunteers to give her more hand like an idiot in 2016).

Don’t know how to solve that one yet, but I know “adding less ability to leave and promising monogamy” isn’t going to solve it.

“Game your baby mama perfectly, and some random asshole can still plunge your life into hell.”

Yup. But at least if you don’t legally sign yourself up for marriage, you can avoid extra consequences.

“And the arrangement of pieces on the chess board is not just bad, but is worse than most people would be able to believe, and the rules of the game are not those printed on the box. Most men only start to believe it when they’re already waist deep into the meat grinder.”

Yup. This is my point. Guys have no idea how stacked against them this shit is until it’s too late. I’d rather warn them and give them an alternate plan with less risk, even if that’s “too negative”.

“Call my stance ” traditional ” or anything else, but I have witnessed, first-hand, the mindless destruction and loss of morals and character that ensues when men are minimized and women are put in charge with the State as the Final Word.”

Then what you ACTUALLY want is a return to organized religion, that controls men, puts the fear of god in everyone, and everyone start believing in that religion regardless of what your beliefs are.

You can have morals and character WITHOUT religion. Do you think if Andy had a girlfriend on the side he would just turn into some ghetto thug getting dozens of girls pregnant and walking out on his kids and shit?

And that doesn’t even factor into how many people IN those communities DO believe in religion/god/etc but still don’t have those morals and character that religion is supposed to give them.

How in the world would legal marriage help any of that?

“that a stable family MUST have a strong, male head of household to thrive and flourish and move forward”

Agreed. No one disagrees with this. But legal marriage and promised monogamy (VS choosing to not bang other poon or bang it discreetly in your spare time) are not required for a family to have a strong male head of household. If anything, with the cash & prizes they’ll get in 2016, legal marriage makes it HARDER to be the strong male head of household because you’re the only one in that household with everything to lose.

“A man must take responsibility for the guidance of his family, without any outside interference.”

Agreed. No one disagrees with this. Legal marriage and promised monogamy are not required for a man to guide his family.

“This is why when I sense that you are trying to find a non-traditional means to bring CHILDREN into the world, I tend to bristle.”

So what do you want? Everyone to take up religion again, hit the church every week and learn them Godly morals? Do you think that’s realisitic? The reality is that isn’t working anymore because society has evolved. The traditional means is still producing fatherless children, guys in this very thread are or know guys who aren’t allowed to be an influence in their children’s lives.

People aren’t going to just take up religion, and it isn’t necessary to take it up or to legally marry or promise monogamy to take care of your family.

“It is not possible or reasonable for me to list the benefits of ” marriage ” or ” monogamy ” for a man who sees zero benefit and only loss in the endeavor.”

Again all I’m asking for is what a man in 2016 who DOES want to have kids and a stable 2-parent household, what benefit does legal marriage and/or promising monogamy do for him that he can’t get without those things? That’s all I’m asking. It’s not a trick question lol

“1) I do not believe that all women are in such bad shape that a man could never find a wife if he was so inclined. I agree that there are MASSIVE problems facing any man trying to establish a marriage or ltr. MASSIVE problems. But I do not find it rational to believe that ALL women are so fucked up that relationships with them beyond busting nuts is impossible or even ill advised.”

How many women have you met in your street interviews that you would encourage your son to marry?

“2) I do not believe that men are somehow absolved from their responsibilities as men, because women are difficult in 2016, or any other date. If the terrain shifts under your feet, put on boots and keep stepping. I believe it is not in the nature of most men to remain static. Figure this shit out and get what you want.”

No one wants men to abandon their kids. We’re looking for how to get them better odds to be allowed to stay IN their kids’ lives, not OUT of it. I have NO idea why you started bringing this up. NO ONE wants absent fathers, that’s WHY we’re having the discussion of how to lower that trend since women are the ones primarily initiating divorces and restricting mens access TO their kids.

“3) No matter what popular culture or notion says, I believe in the position of the man as the TOP position. It might be due to some religious influences, I will cop to that, but It is mostly due to what I’ve observed in my life. Men are fucking awesome!!!! ( nohomo ) Fuck all that FI noise.”

Can’t imagine anyone here disagreeing with this. A lot of society (like a 2016 girl’s friends and family) would, but none of us here.

“Now again, what is the benefit of marriage?”

Anything, I’m fucking dying on the edge of my seat here lol

“Firstly, regardless f what you may think, it is the best environment to raise kids in. Period.”

In what way is this scenario:

– 2 people, together for as long as you and your wife, who love eachother, live together, share parenting ideals, had a wedding, wear wedding rings, share the same last name, have eachother in their wills, and raise their kids together, both taking an active role in their kids lives and teaching them morals values etc through their lives

a better environment than:

– 2 people, together for as long as you and your wife, who love eachother, live together, share parenting ideals, had a wedding, wear wedding rings, share the same last name, have eachother in their wills, and raise their kids together, both taking an active role in their kids lives and teaching them morals values etc through their lives…except they didn’t sign a legal document

Like, how does that legal document make that environment better for the kid? Serious question.


“I am responsible for setting an example for my kids, and I do this with flair and great satisfaction. Part of the example is the interaction between my wife and myself – in front of them.”

And could you NOT interact just the same with your wife if you hadn’t put your signature on a piece of paper? Were you two miserable and distance and cold and jaded around eachother until you signed that paper? No, you were probably just as lovey dovey as you are now. You don’t need the signature on a piece of paper for that and, as we learn from the MMSL strategy, a little dread helps INCREASE attraction.

“One of the small reasons why my youngest daughter posts my old ass all over snapchat, is because she realizes that dad is pretty great, and she also has scores of school mates from single family homes.”

We are not recommending single parent homes. We are recommending EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE minus the legal signature on a piece of paper. Why is this so hard to understand?

We aren’t recommending being a drop in dad who pops in every few weeks to say hi. We are talking about 2 people living together doing exactly what your wife and you do in front of their kids.

“Secondly, you can call it old school, but marriage is different from dating.”

To YOU. To your WIFE (from another generation). To people in the PAST.

But not to women in 2016. There is no hand of authority and automatic “man of the household” respect given to a man who marries anymore.

“Idgaf if you are ” dating ” for 50 years, marriage is different”

This is just feels based on your social conditioning. There is literally no difference between a piece of paper signed and unsigned except that signed it means you’re taking significantly more risk.

If you TOLD your wife you were signing marriage documents and then just wrote in “SCRIBBLERG”, you would have the EXACT SAME RELATIONSHIP you have now except that you wouldn’t have a signed marriage document.

“And yeah, society is doing everything humanly possible to destroy marriage ( I do not know why )”
“that’s forces within society trying to fuck marriage up”

This is my point. Those things make it harder to make marriage work. Unless you marry some old post-wall chick like Scribblerg’s study showed lol But I’m assuming we want men to have kids with <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.

"It is an agreement between 2 people on a deeper level than ” you’re cool, I love you “"

To YOU. To your WIFE (from another generation). To people in the PAST. But not to women in 2016.

It seems like the hardest part for you to grasp is that a thing you very heavily valued and your wife values and your friends value, is becoming devalued.

"It is an agreement that I think you are worth more to me than just a girlfriend. It is recognition that your woman has proved herself over time. It is the basis for forming a true family."

This is all just feels. AND those feels require HER to feel the exact same way, which in 2016 where her Kim Kardashian influences divorce after 80-whatever days…

"But I will not ever accept the premise that the odds of getting fucked in marriage is inevitable"

No one's said it's inevitable. It's just VERY VERY DIFFICULT compared to your day.

And again there's NO benefit to risking that. You can do everything you did minus the legal paper or promising monogamy. Literally your exact same life.

"Just because a woman CAN do some foul shit, doesn’t guarantee that she will."

Sure, but why not be with her, settle with her, live with her, have kids with her, raise them with her, and just be a bit less at risk if she DOES decide to do some foul shit.

There's no logical reason to add a bunch of risk to this lol I can't even understand how I have to keep explaining this lol

"On it’s face, marriage is an agreement between 2 people."

It USED to be.

"Maybe it would be better if everyone got married, alone in their livingrooms. Fuck all of the wedding and family and friends and wedding cake and pictures. That is not the main event. Don’t get sidetracked."

Even BETTER would be having a ceremony, alone in their livingrooms. Without all the wedding and family and friends and wedding cake and pictures. Or even HAVING all of that.

…but just NOT signing legal documents that risk half your shit.

"If you can vet well, and locate the woman that sees marriage the same way that you do, TEST her over a period of time. You MUST see the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. this is imperative. You need to grasp the mechanics of desire also. As YaReally refers to the NRE ( I agree ), you may just turn her on standing around in your stretched out boxers. This is not a long term strategy though, lol. It does not mean that she has turned into an evil, sexless bitch. Get understanding about what sparks her desire ( she’s your wife after all ) and do that shit."

I agree with all of this. Now do all of that but just don't sign that legal piece of paper. Do EVERYTHING ELSE YOU SAID except that.

What benefits will you lose by not signing that piece of paper?

"So I can’t say what one could get from marriage that they couldn’t get from pLtr’s or some such"

Because there isn't anything lol Except feelings you've had socially conditioned into you, and so has your wife, but lots of girls in 2016 aren't and that's increasing.

"if a guy does not first grasp what is different about marriage in the first place."

You still haven't presented anything that 1) isn't just feels, or 2) doesn't require HER to have the exact same level of belief in it which, in 2016, is getting rarer and rarer unless you're in some super religious community which 90% of men aren't.

"I f ” love ” baffles your mind, if the deepest level of commitment via mutual agreement makes you go ” meh “, I will never have a problem with any of that."

Does it NOT bother you that your argument basically comes down to "but…but LOVE!!!!"? We look at the FI message a LOT around here, and a LOT of shit that isn't good for men is conditioned into them to do because "LOVE"…and you don't see the parallel between that and what you're saying about a lopsided contract with nothing but risks for the man for the sake of "LOVE"??

I'm just fascinated at this point. Like, that the conditioning can run that deep even in a red pill forum.

"But if you see relationships as having levels that differentiate between a SNL, girl I’m banging, and girlfriend – up to wife ( which is different from the previous designations ), then it is possible ( I said POSSIBLE ) that if you are willing to consider it, and do your homework, whether it’s 1916 or 2016, you might be successful at this thing."

– Reward for going from SNL to "girl I'm banging": more frequent/reliable sex, good feels, etc Risk? Nothing.

– Reward for going from "girl I'm banging" to GF: more frequent/reliable sex (maybe lol), good feels, deep connection, etc Risk? Nothing.

– Reward for going from GF to to pLTR: more frequent sex and variety, good feels, etc Risk? A bit of drama now and then probably

– Reward for going from GF/pLTR to Wife: _____(please fill in this blank)_____? Risk: EVERYTHING.

Why would a guy want to even TRY to be "successful" at this thing? Love and religious beliefs is about it so far.

"I know the popular notion says to eliminate all traces of emotion from your being, lol, but fuck that shit. It FEEEEELLLLSSSS nice when it works out."

A lot of things feel nice when they work out, that don't risk you paying alimony for life to a girl fucking some Chad who's raising your kids while you live in a car lol

"And I reiterate, you Must do your due diligence. Don’t bitch about it later if you married her because she was hot and you wanted to lock down that” 10 ” so all of your buds would envy you forever."

Agreed. Why not do all of this due dilligence and then just don't sign a legal contract or promise monogamy?

"1) Best option for a stable family. No debate."

Agreed but the legal marriage contract and promising monogomy (VS simply choosing to not sleep around, like you choose) are not required to have that exact same stable family household.

"2) When done right, you have someone in your corner who actually loves you by choice and the power of your will. lol."

You can do this without a legal contract (since we know you can't negotiate desire/love) and without promising monogamy (which keeps her more attracted to you, as evidenced by the MMSL fixes that involve instilling dread and Rollo's bottle model job etc)

"3) You have someone that you can see yourself in, like a mirror. She is a reflection of you."

You can have this without scribbles in the shape of your name on a legal document and without promising monogamy but simply choosing to be with her the same way you chose not to fuck that street interview girl in the parking lot even though you could have…if you hadn't signed that legal document would you have railed her, that little scribble you made 20-whatever years ago is the only thing that kept your dick in your pants?

"But if none of this means anything at all to you, I fully understand. No hate. Lol."

It's not that it doesn't mean anything, it's all great. But it's all stuff you can have without a legal marriage contract or promising monogamy.

"Once again, there are zero iron clad guarentees."

Agreed, so why not lower the risk.

"I did not lose half my shit, I had full access to my daughter 24/7, I did not get financially ruined."

You were very lucky that you were raised to be an alpha dude. Do you think you in 392 BC (lol) were more or less alpha red pill than the hipster kids you see at work or in a cafe etc who will be rolling the dice on marriage to the girls you're interviewing on the street?

on September 9th, 2016 at 8:19 pm
Original Link

Stefan rules. Here’s another good one:

I recommend watching the Divorce Corp documentary itself:

Just incase you don’t beat the odds trying to win a game that doesn’t have any benefits that you can’t get without entering this rigged legal system.

…man I wish I was out sarging right now lol Someone pull out their tits!

on September 9th, 2016 at 10:03 pm
Original Link

“OK. That went about how I thought it would. Waste of fucking time.”

You recommended “LOVE” as a reason to sign a lopsided contract to red pill men. LOVE. lol

“But I wonder how many reading along get that nothing anyone could ever say would spark the ” conversTion ” Ya says he’s trying to have.”

Plenty of other people who actually get my point have contributed.

“Even asking for examples or descriptors while fully intending to never change his stance regardless of anything that’s said.”

You haven’t provided good logical evidence. You’ve provided “love” and “religion”. Don’t blame me for your shitty arguments lol

“My lesson learned about you man. You aren’t what you espouse really. Lol, and your field tested bullshit.”

What issue do you have with what I replied? This is what I’m talking about when you old guys go “no one wants our opinion” then we say “ok what’s your opinion” and you give it and we go “well that doesn’t really hold up actually if you look at it from the data we have–” “WHY WON’T YOU JUST LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE I’M OLD???!?!?!?”

Sorry man, you gotta make logical rational arguments just like anyone else. You know what else guys are encouraged to do by the FI because of “LOVE”? Do I gotta make a list?

“It was good that you Answered Rollo’s questions. You don’t understand relationships on any level, and you aren’t genuine about it.”

In what way am I not genuine? Because you gave shitty evidence and I called it out as emotional feels, not good logical evidence?

“Even encouraging Andy to nuke his marriage because you don’t believe in it at all.”

I don’t WANT to tell you to eat shit, but now you’re just making up lies about me man. I was one of the people encouraging Andy to NOT nuke his marriage and instead talk to his girl and see what she’s open to, AND I was encouraging IAS to NOT nuke his marriage (in this very fucking thread). You don’t have to make shit up about me to fit your boogeyman stereotype of me.

Anyone can scroll up and see where I told IAS not to nuke his marriage without thinking things through, and anyone can go back to Andy’s situation that I recommended the same shit especially since he has kids.

You CLEARLY want to paint me as some kind of boogeyman because I don’t agree with your feels, but I figured you with all your manly morals and virtues would be above flat out lying.

“But dudes here looking to you for answers deserve more from you if you really want to help them instead of pushing your agenda and point of view that everything is exactly as you state always.”

I am totally open to other views, but you’re going to have to bring more to the table than “well, LOVE man!!”

“Not one of my great grandparents ever had a marriage license. Not one of my grandparents was a bastard.”

According to Blaximus they were absent fathers who didn’t care about their kids then, and one step away from being ghetto dudes shooting eachother and having 50 baby mamas.

“In the US it was 1929 before all US states required a marriage license, so it could be viewed as a mid-20th century phenomena. A license is not part of forming a marriage. Never has been.”

Hear that Blax? It’s possible to have a stable loving 2-parent long-term household that raises decent kids, without a legal marriage contract.

“Yeah. Frame is dumb. This is interesting. Dread is too hard. So is frame. You need a fucking fainting chair bro? Red Pill. Swallow another.”

Solid advice. Here’s more advice: Dread, frame, etc are hard. So swallow a Red Pill (like reading Rollo’s articles on “love” and negotiating desire) and DON’T sign a contract or enter an arrangement that makes Dread and Frame even HARDER, for no actual benefit that anyone can name.

on September 9th, 2016 at 11:07 pm
Original Link

“Again, it’s written down that I never said anything about men going back to religion, but you hit me with it again. I don’t ever recommend religion to other men.”

You brought up that a benefit of marriage is love and talked about how we need religious values and stuff to fix the ghettos and Make Marriage Great Again. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable interpretation of what you wrote.

Much better interpretation than me telling Andy/IAS not to nuke their marriages without thinking shit through thoroughly and trying other options and you lying that I told them to nuke their marriages.

@Anonymous Reader @Scribblerg

From the comments on that article you swung your dick around with:

“I hate to state what seems obvious, but the story seems entirely off base and the data show this. The lines of marriage by decade do converge on about 50%. Simple extrapolation from the 1990’s and 2000’s curves is all that is needed to predict the final number of lifetime marriage chances that end in divorce. Newer marriages have just not ‘caught up’ with older marriages. The headline and story are misleading. ”

“It seems silly to separate them based off of when they were married rather than by giving overall divorce rates. Couples that have been together longer are bound to have a higher number of divorces. They should have shown projected divorce rates for the couples married since the 2000’s. The graph would have looked less dramatic but it would have showed the decline.”

“I can count on one hand how many married friends I have. So if less young adults are getting married nowadays than in previous decades, less divorces will subsequently follow. Also, it’s extremely expensive to get divorced.”

“Every one realizes of course that as a function of years of marriage the divorce rate for those married in the 90’s and 2000’s is lower then the 80’s and 90’s but higher then the 60’s. Also at its current rate, and of course assuming a similar trajectory as every other decade which has been a consistent mathematical finding, at the 20 year mark the divorce rate for those married in the last decade will be still higher then the 60’s and nearly 35% of all marriages will have ended. On top of that the actual difference is percentage points not the large gaps created by plotting the data on a limited scale on the Y-axis. And finally the rest of the article is wild conjecture at best.”

“The chart indicates that all marriages reached the 15% divorce rate before the eighth year of marriage, with those married in the 2000s reaching it in eight years. Simple subtraction would mean that those marriages of shorter duration (2006-2014) have not yet reached the eight year threshold.”

lol Now who would want to convince men that marriage is a good idea by putting out bullshit propaganda and hoping no one looks at it too closely (which apparently some guys don’t lol)……who would benefit from having men enter a lopsided contract that gives aging women their resources……hmmm……

Why are you guys trying to help the FI chain men up?

“Now. One of the most revealing things about this topic has been discovering just how much contempt you and SJW have for other men, based purely on money. You two just don’t give a crap about working class and middle class men. I’ll bear that character flaw in mind in the future.”

lol I’m surprised at the amount of contempt for men who weren’t blessed enough to have their advantages in general. “Don’t wanna take risks, don’t have kids you pussy!” “Don’t know what I already know, then fuck you!” “Not born UMC well too bad for you!” uhhh what? What’s the point of red pill communities again?

P.S. Meanwhile in flyover: “The [University of Iowa] already offers a first-year seminar on social justice as well as a “Justice for All” living learning community where students can live and “learn about systemic problems in our society.” University officials told The Iowa City Press-Citizen that both programs have been so well-received, with full-enrollment in the “Justice for All” learning community, that demand for an actual degree-program on the topic made sense.”:

Get ready SJF, they’re coming your way…lol

@Anonymous Reader
“I do know that women can and will change a whole bunch in a few years, and if their social circle is all about “Divorce that bum! You can do better!” it’s going to have an effect. “Social circle” isn’t just the playdate / kinder / family / church group anymore, either, it’s all her besties from the past on social media.”

This. This has been my point since the start.

“Dude, the margin for error is smaller now than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It is what it is. So men have to be even more vigilant in vetting any woman to marry, OR they have to find alternative ways to make the whole “LTR with kids” thing work.”

Yup, all I’m saying is do the exact same thing you would have done if you got married and were monogamous, but just don’t legally sign a paper and don’t promise monogamy.

This is such a simple concept.

“Tell me. Am I defeatist for having fire extinguishers? Should I just be manly and say “Yo, I ain’t having any fires in my Realm, SO THERE!” instead?”

lol another good analogy.

“Get out there and wait for a grizzly shit on your face.”

“But I don’t want that to happen. It would suck so bad.”

“You need a fucking fainting chair bro?”

“But why SHOULD I do it??”


(plus you can get love without a legal marriage certificate or promising monogamyπŸ˜‰ lol)

on September 10th, 2016 at 10:21 am
Original Link

“Not much of a prize getting the cat when the kitten played the field. I guess being ‘Mr Good Enough’ to a woman with dwindling options, lower SMV, baby rabies and shrivelling fertility is a prize for some men. For some being Mr Settled For is not enough”

Scribblerg’s study specifically states that the women in it are getting married older (lower SMV, less options, baby rabies, shrivelling fertility) and are seeking guys with high incomes (aka Providers making good money who will legally sign half of it over to lower SMV woman).

That’s the data, right there, in that article. Is THAT what we want men to have here? Chase 30yo women (possibly with kids, alpha widow baggage etc) after they’ve finished with the cock carousel and legally sign a contract with them and then ask “now how can guys best navigate this contract that they’ve signed for no reason with a woman hitting the wall”?

…what?? lol

@Trent Lane
lol thank god it’s clear what’s going on to people reading. The emotional pushback on this is unreal. I don’t get how I have to keep repeating this shit.

“you would have understood what I meant by stating that those factors don’t “confound the analysis””

They make the analysis useless, is that a better term, as a stats pro?

“meaning that the estimates are valid and reliable despite those facts”

Sure, the estimates are ABSOLUTELY valid…for guys looking to succeed at being Beta Bucks marrying women hitting the wall. The article itself literally lays that out. If that’s your goal for men, then we have very different views on what success is lol

“And of course I read the article, stop being such a fucking arrogant punk nonstop – it makes you come off like such a dick.”

You get to come at me being an arrogant dick, but when I do it back I’m the asshole? lol

“Also, I could have written your response, I expected it.”

lol well then you really shouldn’t have posted data that backs up what we’re saying.

“Now here’s a lecture for you, son”

bla bla bla your rant is just feels instead of facts and logic and data.

“from a group of guys who mostly have genius IQs”

That’s why I’m so surprised you guys are having trouble with simple logic. Trent Lane summed up exactly what this thread is looping around, everyone else can see how simple this is lol but you guys are emotionally invested in taking “marriage NOW is broken” as “YOUR MARRIAGES ARE ALL STUPID AND YOU’RE GONNA GET RAAAAAAPED”.

“Yet you approach this with the presumption of your own superiority”

It’s not MY superiority, it’s the superiority of my argument. The facts, logic, stats and data all back me up. It’s not my fault the counter-argument boils down to feels.

“but you miss that this includes you”

You brought a chart to the table that says divorce rates among Beta Bucks guys marrying women hitting the wall means marriage isn’t as bad a deal as we’re saying. Bring better arguments and I’ll be HAPPY to admit I’m wrong.

Comes back to the same question I’ve had from the start that you old guy shave been dodging for 5 pages now:

What benefits are there for a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy (VS voluntarily choosing to be monogamous)?

Why can’t you answer this simple question instead of doing cartwheels around it?

“I have a challenge for you. Try making arguments that fit in 3 paragraphs and are less than 1000 words.”

I’d love to but you keep missing the point so I have to explain it more in-depth, thinking that you’ll get the point, and then you old guys completely miss the point, again, and again and again. See Trent Lane’s summary of this discussion.

“Part of the growth a man typically has in his thirties is coming to “knowi what he doesn’t know”. You aren’t there yet apparently, but maybe someday you’ll get there.”

Well if YOU guys haven’t gotten there yet, that doesn’t leave much hope for me, does it? Can’t wait till I’m 50 and I can tell young guys to just listen to me no matter what I say and no matter how few facts and logics I have to support it.

“as the trend lines are based on the divorce experience throughout the entire lifetime of marriages and is a valid cohort analysis technique”

Sure. Of Beta Bucks (as they said, high-income earning men) marrying women close to the wall (as they said, women getting married later in life). That’s nice data but it’s not really relevant to getting guys in 2016 to be able to raise kids with a <25yo 8+/10 in a stable 2-parent household.

"Not very flattering, Ya."

Still waiting for you to offer logic. The stats you brought to the table were debunked as irrelevant to the discussion at best, bullshit manipulated stats at worst. It's not my fault you didn't pay closer attention to it.

"What I am saying is that the assumption that you are very likely to get divorced if you marry is not born out by the actual data."

…if you're a "high-income male earner" marrying a "later stage in her life" woman. That's what your data shows. Facts are stubborn things.

And again we come back to: whether you're likely to get divorced or not, what benefit is there for a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy? Why should it even MATTER if the divorce rate is 0.000001%? What are that other % getting from legal marriage and/or promised monogamy that they can't get without it?

"There are men on this very forum who are married, and have been for the long haul and don’t see it this way."

Yes, those men are really worked up about us discussing marriage in 2016. You know, not THEIR marriages. But the marriages men in 2016, looking to have kids with <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016, will be having.

This is what I mean about you old guys being unable to not take things personally. "There's no reason for men ***IN 2016*** to get married." "What, you say there's no reason to get married ever AND THERE NEVER WAS??! WELL I HAD REASONS!! What my reasons were feels-based?! YOU IGNORANT WHIPPERSNAPPER!!" uh ya, sorry gramps.

You entered a much BETTER contract than men in 2016 have in front of them, and you were raised in a culture that made it easier to succeed at that contract. Good on you, I'm happy for you, but those circumstances have changed for the 2016 man and 2016 woman.

"To claim there is one way to see this, and that there is some ironclad truth about these relationships is simply out of step with reality."

So just answer the question then: what benefit is there for a man in 2016 to enter a legally binding marriage contract with a woman in 2016, and/or promise her monogamy in 2016?

I'd LOVE to see this "other way to see this", but the arguments from the old man side so far have been bad stats data about marrying old low-SMV chicks, and "love".

"Of course, marriage is a risky proposition, but the question we are trying to deal with here is, “how risky?”?"

Why? If it's risky at ALL, then there should be some benefit/reward to doing it. So what is the benefit/reward for a man in 2016 to enter a legally binding marriage contract with a woman in 2016, and/or promise her monogamy in 2016?

Because if there's no benefit/reward, then it's a risky proposition without any reward. That's objectively a bad idea when you can have the exact same lifestyle (living with her, loving relationship for 40+ years, raise kids together, NOT sleep with other women, etc) minus the legal contract and/or promised monogamy.

"And can we mitigate the risks?"

For what benefit/reward, to men in 2016? Name anything at all.

@scribblerg @SJF
"“A job which was thanklessly analogous to defending monogamous marriage here among the colonists.” Nice one."

lol see that's my point. WE are talking about monogamous marriage *IN 2016*. YOU are defending YOUR monogamous marriages.

We are not talking about YOU. YOU got married when it was a better deal and there presumably WERE benefits (even though it was mostly feels-based). It's a worse deal for men in 2016…which is what we're talking about. Not YOU, or YOUR marriage or marriage to women in the PAST.

How is this so hard for you "genius level IQ" guys to get? The solipsism is off the charts.

"I suggest we proceed without regard to YaReally’s commentary on this subject"

lol yes, that would make it a lot easier to ignore the facts and data and logic that show there's no reason to even entertain "how to beat the odds in marriage in 2016" when none of you can bring any actual benefit/reason to TRY to beat the odds.

Men can have everything they get from marriage/monogamy in 2016 without a legal marriage and without promising monogamy in 2016, to <25yo 8+/10 2016 girls.

"By now, we know everything he has to say on it as he’s done say 100k words repeating the same thing over and over again."

I really wish you'd read it carefully at some point then. How about reading Trent Lane's summary, does it help if it has his name instead of mine on it so you aren't blinded by "fuck YaReally!!!" rage and can just look at the simple logical arguments?

"He’s becoming scroll wheel material for me on this subject"

I would probably want to scroll past someone decimating my arguments too lol

"So, what say you to this question: How much does being Red Pill help one mitigate the long term risks of marriage?"

Followed by: what benefits/rewards are there for a man in 2016 to bother TRYING to mitigate the long term risks of marriage in 2016 to women in 2016, VS just not getting married and living the exact same lifestyle as a married man, minus having those risks to mitigate?

"I’ve mentioned here from time to time by pointing out that no one can always be on their game. And externalities can intrude like loss of job/money despite best efforts, health issues and even things like depression etc. I certainly witnessed a lack of compassion for any weakness or failure from my erstwhile wife. We also can make mistakes, as all humans do."

hmmm…what can men do to mitigate the risks of severe conseqeunces for this…hmmmmmmmm…if only there was a solution. Wait, I know, what if he just doesn't sign a legal contract that voluntarily agrees to massive consequences if any of these things happen to him?

"Is a man signing up for nonstop high-wire act by getting marriage?"

All the facts and data and logic and stats point to "Yes".

"Even more deeply, does the “burden of performance” outweigh the benefits of marriage?"

What benefits are there for a man in 2016 marrying a woman in 2016? Still waiting for an answer.

"My main takeaway is this if you want something go for it. Don’t listen to someone that says it can’t be done."

We're just asking WHY it SHOULD be done? When you can get all of the benefits of it WITHOUT the risks?

"Consider the fact that as a woman ages, her SMV is declining… while as you age – if you are not a fuckwit – yours is going up. I think everyone who reads here should be able to agree on those two points."

Sure, I totally agree. This is backed up in Scribblerg's graph/stats he posted that explain how if you marry a low-SMV old woman, she's less likely to divorce you (if you have a lot of beta bucks ("high-income earning men" as his study puts it)). I 100% agree that an old woman with less options and smaller fertility windows etc is less likely to leave you, which is why guys keeping their 70yo wives around isn't really relevant to guys in 2016 trying to keep <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 around.

"So as you proceed in relationship – married or otherwise – over a longer term she is declining in options while you – if your head is not firmly up your ass – are expanding your options (whether or not you act on them)."

In the PAST, sure. In 2016, she is gaining options. Rollo himself has talked about some 40+yo chick he knows who has a ton of options online. This is what's changed. If you marry her in her prime <25yo and she's an 8+/10 in 2016 raised on social media, with male friends, working in a male workspace, she is gaining orbiters potentially till she's in her 40s.

At what rate? Well, according to Tinder experiments she can rack up 900+ new orbiters in 3 days. If she's 23, that's quite a lot of orbiters by the time she's 40.

Can a MAN rack up 900+ new orbiters in 3 days? If he's a rockstar maybe lol But I don't think that's realistic for Joe the Plumber (who, according to stats as Anonymous Reader pointed out, is less likely to avoid divorce compared to the UMC rich guys).

"This is a great natural counterbalance to the overhyped rapacious hypergamy DivorceRaper’s would have you believe…"

I'm not asking anyone to "believe" anything. That's what the "but, it's for love!" stuff is. I'm asking them to look at the facts data stats and logic, that all back up what our side is saying against, really, like 4 or 5 of you at most…none of you who are settling with <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.

The guys who ARE trying to do that are running into the trends we're bringing up, they're literally telling them to you in this thread and without breaking a sweat I can link a dozen other threads from a dozen other communities all running into the same problems.

"No add to that that you accrue “relationship equity” with your LTR – again if you are not fucking yourself left and right – so you have a wide margin for error…"

See "The Desire Dynamic" and "Relational Equity" by Rollo Tomassi, he's an excellent writer. Here, let me quote some of the RE article for you:

“For men, this is a logically sound idea. All of that investment adds up to their concept of relationship equity. So it’s particularly jarring for men to consider that all of that equity becomes effectively worthless to a woman presented with a sufficiently better prospect as per the dictates of her hypergamy.

That isn’t to say that women don’t take that equity into account when determining whether to trade up or in their choice of men if they’re single, but their operative point of origin is ALWAYS hypergamy. Women obviously can control their hypergamic impulses in favor of fidelity, just as men can and do keep their sexual appetites in check, but always know that it isn’t relationship equity she’s rationally considering in that moment of decision.”

Am I the only one who actually reads Rollo’s articles? lol

“I can comfortably leave the table at a restaurant and find my wife still waiting for me when I return, she is not running off with anyone.”

Again you guys make it personal. To your marriages, from a different time, under different social conditioning, to women with different conditioning, who have now lost their SMV.

In 2016 a <25yo 8+/10 girl will whip out her phone and check her Facebook while you're in the bathroom, because as Blaximus has noted "they're so bored and don't know how to entertain themselves".

Why can't you guys just connect the big red dots you're all dancing around? lol

"I’ve been through ups and downs over 25 years, and made mistakes and fucked things up from time to time and she probably at times was pretty pissed and anxious about her choice… "

Was she raised collecting 100+ new orbiters a day?

"Now if you continuously fail the tests… no doubt you are increasing your risk of replacement."

Then there better be a good benefit to men in 2016 to signing a legal contract that risks half their shit, right? What is that benefit for them?

"But managing hypergamy, long term is not much different than managing your checking account"

Except that if you miss a couple payments they don't take half your checking account and alimony for life with risk of jailtime if you can't pay.

"It is not in any way a high wire act…"

I think you have a very different definition of a high-wire act than most men lol

"See this here paragraph is a perfect example of a guy who screwed up going in, lacked the knowledge to correct, fucked it up and suffered the consequence."

Right? Now imagine if he hadn't signed a legal contract. Your sentence would end with "fucked it up" instead of "suffered the consequence".

"i know dozens and dozens of 50 YO divorced guys."

…this really isn't helping your guys' case lol If you know dozens and dozens of old divorced guys, and that was in a different culture where their wives didn't have 900+ new orbiters in 3 days and weren't checking their social media when you went to the bathroom, and they were men raised in a culture that didn't teach them masculinity was toxic, and THEY couldn't make it work with all those advantages, what hope do guys in 2016 have?

"In nearly every case there were warning signs and red flags before marriage, continued signs during it, long periods of potential for correction met with inaction or ignorance and then the inevitable outcome."

It probably would've helped for them to not sign a legal marriage contract then, I'm sure you'd agree.

"A good test of your potential bride, what do your sisters and female relatives think of her?"

Why not see what your sisters and female relatives think of your potential "bride, but not through legal marriage contracts, but still the chick that you call your wife, put a ring on, have a wedding ceremony and honeymoon with, live together and have and raise kids with and choose not to fuck other girls with"?

The same thing, minus the unjustifiable risks.

"As to some kind of new plan for the pLTR with children, all I can say is my name is bennett and I’m not init."

That's totally fine. I'm not in it either (yet, probably someday when I'm in my mid/late 40s though), but I have friends who are, have been, or will be, and am bringing this up for men in general, the rest of this generation and future generations. It doesn't affect me personally yet but I'd like to have some better answers for guys than the traditional route that is blatantly broken and resulting in men not being allowed to see their kids while going through divorce-rapes or being trapped depressed in deadbedroom marriages etc (dem male suicide stats and all)

I'm just planting the seeds of thought on the subject because someone has to. All we DO in red pill communities is talk about how marriage is a bad idea, but when it comes to finding alternatives suddenly it's a sacred cow lol

Really it's just like 4 or 5 guys here, who aren't in the game at all, pushing back with feels instead of facts, and taking everything to mean THEIR marriages to THEIR wives from THEIR era instead of putting themselves in the shoes of men in 2016 dealing with 2016 women in 2016 culture.

"What is gained by marriage is different for everyone"

There is no gain for men in 2016. That's our point. Anything they gain from marriage, they could gain without legally marrying.

"whether marriage is a winnable lifestyle choice in today’s culture"

I would suggest that that's not our overall debate though. What I'm saying is that even if it IS winnable (which the stats/data/etc point to it being significantly harder to win at compared to when these old guys got married), what benefit is there to even TRY to win it, that they can't get without a legal contract?

It's just assumed by default that marriage is what you're supposed to do so these guys are working from "how do we beat the odds?"…but the idea that marriage is even required to raise kids in a stable loving 2-parent household is just social conditioning.

There's no actual benefits to marriage that you can't get without the legal contract, so why sign it and add a noose around your neck and hamper your ability to easily run dread game etc (the things that, when guys come to us for deadbedroom help, we tell them to do to increase their wife's attraction)?

"Sentient concedes that but argues that with tight game and a successful life course, a man can navigate the world of marriage and have a good life."

I don't even disagree. I've never said it was IMPOSSIBLE, just like winning the slot machine in Vegas (marriage in 2016) isn't IMPOSSIBLE. It's just significantly worse odds than winning a coin flip (marriage in the past).

So if the odds are worse and no one can name any benefit to marriage that you can't get without the legal contract, why sign it and risk half your income (possibly for life), your house, your dog, your kids, etc on winning that 2016 slot machine pull?

Why not just do everything you would have done but minus the legal contract so that if you don't win the 2016 slot machine, you just lost 25 cents?

Seems like simple risk/reward logic to me and it amazes me that I have to keep repeating it to these guys.

"I would generally agree with that but the truth is that as YaReally has said, Sentient really isn’t in a monogamous marriage. He’s in a stealth O-LTR."

If he promised monogamy, then he's cheating on her. If he didn't promise monogamy, then he's breaking no obligation. He isn't a bad absent father like Blaximus implies non-monogamy turns every man into, he's just fooling around on the side in his own free time.

So what's his problem with other men doing the same? Side-poon for me, but not for thee?

"If he were really playing by the rules, and I mean morally, would he be able to generate the dread game and the upper hand that he undoubtedly does given that all his ONS must make his daily frame and subcomms rock solid?"

Theoretically yes, like Blaximus and SJF are doing. But they're doing it with post-wall wives, who had different social conditioning from a different time where marriage came with better rewards for men (that's debatable of course though lol)

But in 2016, with a <25yo 8+/10? Well, the guys inside and outside of our communities trying it don't seem to be faring too well. Some have pulled it off for a couple years so far with 2014 girls, but that doesn't tell us much because those guys are rare to begin with and the rest of guys are reporting/demonstrating the things that I'm bringing up.

"And from what I am seeing, I would say that the situation is not as bad as the Manosphere argues. At least not in the Upper Middle Class white world that I live in."

Sure, I don't even disagree with that. But is the situation better or worse than in the past? I think it would be hard to argue that it's BETTER or the SAME lol The stats alone show that, plus we can demonstrate women's options on Tinder and look at endless examples showing things have gotten worse since the old men's era.

Does anyone have any reason to believe the trends will dramatically turn around and go in the opposite direction bringing us back to low/minimal divorce rates? Do trends NORMALLY just randomly 180 for no reason? Is feminism going to turn around and tell women being owned by a man and submitting to him in a marriage and hitting the gym to lose weight is wonderful?

That's why I bring this up. Because even if it's not a totaly nightmare scenario now, down the road when we're all dead, it's reasonable to extrapolate from the data and trends that going to be even worse for men.

A lot of us managed to escape complete total FI-conditioning, but the men who will be trying to figure this stuff out in the future will be FULLY FI-immersed from the day they're born…so I'd say we have better odds at getting the ball rolling on strategies, for them to have a framework to add to in the future.

"Now do they provide NRE sex for their duration? No. But most men are not getting divorce rapped, although it does happen."

What benefit are the ones not getting divorce raped getting that they wouldn't get without signing a legal document, but doing everything else exactly the same?

"But this is where the man is the bread winner and the wife is either a stay-at-home mom or works part time at the most."

An arrangement that is still 100% possible without a signed legal contract.

"What I have seen though, is that most marriages with a career woman are usually shit. Yes, that the manosphere is right about."

They're usually surrounded by other men that they only get brief glimpses at, who are putting on their best Mad Men impression, while their husband becomes "familiar" and boring to them. Now a hot 21yo girl can have 900 of those guys in 3 days with hundreds of messages from them promising her the world.

"Although, even there, there are exceptions. One pattern that often works is when the woman has her children in her 20s, re-enters the work world (often after continuing her education) in her mid to late 30s and then has her career. I have seen a number of healthy marriages of that type; where there is respect between the partners."

See, why don't we discuss that as part of the strategy? A man could "accidentally" knock his <25yo 8+/10 hottie (that he's not legally contracted to or promised monogamy to) when she's like 23, then pitch to her (because you're still in the NRE stage where she's more compliant) "look I love you and let's do this, after he's in kindergarten we'll get you back out to chase your you-go-grrl career". Then when the kid hits kindergarten and she's 26-ish, knock her up again and pitch the same deal. When that second kid is in kindergarten, now she's 32 or so, you've got 2 healthy kids you're raising together, and she's close to the wall with lower SMV, has fulfilled her biological drive, and her leaving you is less appealing so send her back into the work world.

How about some feedback on THAT plan from the Blaximus, Sentient, Scribblerg, SJF, etc? What flaws do you old guys with your life experience see with that plan, besides "YaReally wrote it"?

"But if you are a man like myself, who lived as a gamma up until 40 (!!) when he discovered game, then you will never be fit for marriage."

What benefit do you think you're missing out on by not being fit for marriage as a man who isn't getting legally contractually married to a woman in 2016?

"You missed your window and the best you can do is be an aging player with ever greater understanding of women."

Couldn't you simply date a girl, love eachother, settle together, live together, have kids together, raise them together, and not sleep around on her? But minus the risky legal contract so that if you DID miss your window and are doomed to fail at it, you don't have significant consequences?

"But if you are a man who gets his shit (and his game) together much sooner, and if you want to have children, and if you want to do it in the traditional way rather than the baby mamma setup (which for more traditional minded men is degenerate), then I would say it can be done."

Sure, no one's said that it CAN'T be done. Just that it's harder to do in 2016 than it was in the old guys' era. And that there's no benefit to doing it that you can't have without the legal contract signed or promising monogamy (VS choosing not to sleep around).

You can still be married as far as anyone around you is concerned, no one will see that you didn't write your signature on a piece of paper in your lawyer's office. But minus the risk.

The only attachment is a socially conditioned feels-based one of "but it's the traditional way to do it!!" which doesn't balance out the risks in 2016 especially when you can do everything else that LOOKS like a marriage to anyone who knows you.

"So you are both right in a sense, although I will side spiritually with Sentient in that the world is NOT as dark as the Manosphere and the MGTOWs paint it."

Ya it's great. But there are clearly new realities and changes happening and I think it's best to address those if we want to see society get better instead of worse. This is the world these old men's grandchildren will be navigating.

on September 10th, 2016 at 2:41 pm
Original Link

“Because usually if you want to do something that represent NO benefits for you (but benefits several other people), then it’s not really YOU that wants it, it just has been put into your head by social conditioning”

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

That’s why I’m asking guys for logical reasons and why they’re fighting so hard to attack me personally instead of my argument or bring logical reasons to the table etc.

Because their belief in legal marriage and promising monogamy is 100% socially conditioned. By a combination of religion and social conditioning and FI in general.

The way to expose social conditioning is to corner it and shine a spotlight on it to reveal that there’s nothing there.

That’s why the arguments come down to “scribbling your name on that piece of paper and not scribbling it are different, they just ARE, you either get this or you don’t”. And that’s why that’s a feels-based argument, not logical.

The FI uses the exact same thing to get men to follow traditional disposable male self-sacrifice roles that are logically against male self-preservation, but are dressed up in feels and shaming and promises and myths to convince men to self-sacrifice for things like “love” or “manning up” or “doing the right thing”.

Don’t ask her for a prenup, don’t you love and trust her? Marry her even though she’s a single mom, don’t you love her? It’s the right thing to do. Raise another man’s kids, don’t you love her and them? Take on her debt, don’t you love her? Share bank accounts, don’t you trust her? Don’t keep evidence that it was consensual, don’t you trust her? Stand up to her when she mouths off to someone bigger than you and then cries victim, don’t you love her? Rescue the princess from all her troubles, don’t you love her like a REAL man? Work yourself into the grave to buy her the newest biggest things, don’t you LOVE her?

It’s just writing your name on a piece of paper VS not. You can do literally everything else exactly the same.

If SHE believes marriage is “special” (which is debatable in 2016), cool, there’s some gravity to the word. But the amount of girls that view marriage as “special” and different from being a girlfriend in terms of their own mentalities/behaviors is decreasing to less and less of them, and there’s no indication that this trend will reverse (because why would it?)

Like I say, the pushback is fascinating. This is what happens when you try to cut the head off the social conditioning hydra. It just keeps growing back meaner and more determined to bite you for exposing it.

“It’s interesting to me that you gave me a pat on the back for job well done in getting my wife to actually want to fuck me with desire these days. While YaReally wants to be off yonder in another tribe and tool me with AMOG tactics for it.”

So MY relationship history is perfectly fine to AMOG and discredit me with, but yours isn’t. Rules for thee, not for me.

“Red pill and game is a tool and it depends on who is wielding that tool. Put it in the hands of an inscrutable mastermind like me and it makes all the difference in the world.”

Sure. No reason to legally marry though. You could have the exact same perfect dream life you have now without the legal contract. If not, throw us some reasons why not. We’ve been waiting to hear them.

“If you can tell it’s actually fun and doesn’t seem like a high wire act or risky to me at all.”

The guy who climbed the Eifle Tower was probably enjoying himself and confident in his abilities. That doesn’t mean that objectively it’s not risky, especially for other men. But he can list benefits he got from doing it (like a barf-inducing youtube video) that he coudln’t have gotten without doing it.

So again: what benefits are there to a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy to a girl in 2016, in 2016 culture?

“The net result for me is that I am doing something right now that I wanted to do all along, and am doing right now, which is exactly what I aimed for.”

You could have done everything you’re doing now without signing the legal document and without promising monogamy (but simply choosing not to fuck other women).

“Being who I am and doing what I want to do and being able to control the direction of my life. With a fine woman and good young adult children who are welcome to come along for the ride of my life.”

Legal contract and promising monogamy were not required to obtain these things.

(unless the argument is “but she wouldn’t stay with me if I didn’t” which would mean bargaining from a place of scarcity and be no different than accepting a girl who texts orbiters at the dinner table because if you don’t accept that she won’t stay with you. Exact same thing)

“Also interesting that Gb_Hill is cosigning something I would say about the numbers he is seeing in the UMC community. Sorry I’m more elite myself and AM seeing it work at higher numbers than 2/3 rds he quotes.”


“But then again this is me driveling on because I believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time I believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results.”

Don’t worry, we all know the contempt you feel for people who you think are beneath you.

“and I thought Rollo’s blog was all about uncovering all these social conditioning influences that are detrimental to guys.

What guys here advocate is in direct line with the FI, that’s a bit scay tbh. That EVEN HERE guys follow the FI logic”

Isn’t that fascinating? That’s the part I’m hooked on with this lol These are like the big alpha old guys who go on about being detached from society’s foolish system and immune to social conditioning etc

Even ROLLO it seemed like, was considering jumping in on their side of the fence for a second there (but I can’t say for sure, so I don’t want to put words in his mouth or anything, I just thought he was gearing up to jump in lol) which would be REALLY scary.

Because this is VERY obviously in alignment with the FI self-sacrifice etc that I can literally just point to Rollo’s writing to debunk and categorize this stuff as FI-conditioning to get men to enter lopsided deals that don’t benefit them.

Like how deep do the tentacles go if guys like this are compromised at the core?

“When I said “I want a divorce” boom!!!! suddenly she’s dressing hot, buying me gifts, cooking, planning a birthday party… when I suggested counselling finally after 9 months of separation…myeh…she thought a divorce was a good idea afterall and got remarried.”

So dread worked, as we all know from MMSL/CH etc. Logically, a constant state of soft dread (like Rollo’s job with bottle models) is better than making her your only option. This is my point. This logic is so consistent with attraction principles.

“Now….girl is giving me grief: 1) soft next…off the grid. 2) bang other plate 3) set up meetings with other girls …rinse and repeat.”

And you can do that, because you aren’t legally tied to them or (I assume) promising them monogamy. Now you COULD just hang out with one of them a lot, deflect her shit-tests and hold your frame and tell her to cut out the “silly bullshit games/drama” etc the way Blaximus did once he got married (which he could’ve done before getting married but was socially conditioned not to or simply didn’t think to or wasn’t strong enough in his beliefs at the time to), live together, have babies, raise them together in a loving 2-parent household like a lot of Poly/Open/Swingers/etc (who do those things in their private time, not parading strangers around their kids), etc all without legally signing a piece of paper or promising her you’ll never have side-poon.

“Wife posting hot photos on InstaGoogleTweetFace? you put your foot down…doesn’t work…….you better have a decent option.”

Yup. You could just threaten to walk away but whoops, then she cashes in and before you can finish your rant about how she has to change her behavior, her new Tinder account has 300+ matches and her social media friends are telling her “omg he’s yelling at you?? Ditch that loser he’s abusive!! He wants to cut you off from your friends!!”

But when you can easily walk away and she DOESN’T cash in, she just LOSES, there’s a chance she MAY voluntarily decide that’s not worth it…because that’s how dread game works.

“Ever told your wife to fuck off? Doesn’t work out so well…”

In Blaximus’ house when his wife misbehaves, SHE probably has to sleep on the couch, because he’s an alpha dude…but the stereotype in society is the man in the doghouse sleeping on the couch for a reason.

“noted lethal weapon bit. will do more stuff like that. I think that is the answer to my “spike BT super fast” bit. just randomly do something like that “oh, I am gonna tell everyone you stole that HEY OVER HERE THIS CHICK IS STEALING!” do more stuff like that to spike BT fast.”

Ya, it seems like that’s along the lines of your natural sense of humor and self-amusement, so just run with it. It also shows that you aren’t bothered by social pressure.

But calibrate it down for a shy quiet asian girl who probably won’t be as able to handle social pressure compared to a feisty outgoing loud chick where you can dump tons of social pressure on yourselves and she has fun.

“since I already sort of had a day 2 on my day 1, I am trunkating the day 2 to go to the isolated garden area sooner than I usually would.”

I think you have enough A2 to do that. Remember that when you meet up again you won’t be starting from where you left off, you’ll almost be starting from back in A1. It won’t take nearly as long to get back to where you were, but like, don’t be thrown off if her vibe when you meet up is a bit cold shouldery, she just needs some A1 and possibly to run through the A1-A3 process again to refresh to her hindbrain “oh ya this guy is awesome”. Most guys get stung by this a few times before they figure it out lol (“we made out at the bar!! and she came out to meet up with me again!! now she won’t even take her jacket off??”)

“thing is I already set up the time for the day 2 — that was what I made her reapeat over and over. so I can’t really pitch the whole “when’s a good time for you?” I *can* do that for a day 3 to get a day when her roomate isn’t there.”

lol should be alright. Just keep it in mind for the Day3 and don’t get thrown if she does put up resistance to going back to her place on the Day2…she might be fine with it, we don’t KNOW that she’s worried about the roommate at all, she may have shaved her vag and everything for you for the Day2 and be fine with taking you home, so try it and just calibrate if not. Try to pre-empt her resistance, like if you pitch coming over and sense resistance you can throw out an “actually fuck, I can’t tonight, I have a thing in the morning…well whatever, next time, let’s just enjoy this walk” Use your judgement to decide whether to push forward for the Day2 lay or pre-emptively back off for the Day3 lay. Just throwing the usual possibilities at you so you know what to expect.

“okay I guess I see where this is a solid instadate and all — but like I was saying to forge — since nothing physical actually *happened* its kind of hard to see where you’re like you can fuck off of what you have done so far”

lol right. The reality is pickup CAN look flashy, but it doesn’t have to. As long as you flip the key switches of seduction, how you hit them or how flashy they look don’t really matter.

Like watch that Mystery vid I linked where the blonde girl is hounding him for her number. She’s massively attracted even though he hasn’t DONE anything physical, he hasn’t even kissed her and barely touched her, but it doesn’t matter because he’s flipping the key switches.

For new guys especially it can be more reassuring to have big blatant green flashing light iois, because they aren’t used to girls wanting them at ALL and are worried about fucking it up so they want more reassurance…but when you’ve been with a bunch of girls you realize “ok this is going well” with a lot more subtle indicators.

“strangely, I don’t feel good about it now actually. like usually when I read write ups it makes me feel better and gives me a boost. so I can see “yeah, I did good at this part”. here I did a lot more, went on an instadate and all. . .but I’m not getting that good vibe here.”

lol don’t worry, everything you did was solid from a technical standpoint and pickup is very technical under the artistic surface.

“a lot of it is just from girl being more esl and doesn’t give as much feedback. so I’m not getting the same huge reactions like I would get from a blakc chick.”

Right, that goes back to what I said about needing more reassurance with bigger blatant indicators. As Alex from RSD said “attraction looks like her just quietly paying attention to what you’re saying”. At least with the shy girls lol

“still paranoid about girl, think she might flake.”

She might, but you can’t control that. All you can control is sticking to your plan which is a solid plan, and then adapt to whatever happens and if she flakes, she flakes, you can try again with her. Pay attention to whether she just flakes or whether she flakes while offering an alternative plan etc etc

“while UMC marriages aren’t ending at nearly the average rate, UMC marriages have the same problem with dead bedrooms as non-UMC marriages.”

This is a pretty logical conclusion that any sane rational male (lol) would make. But according to SJF, who can see into all those bedrooms, everything is perfect in UMC land (where he’s the only one here who’s in it or comes from it or is around it lol).

“I see lots of older UMC women who have become whales. Dead bedrooms for the loss.”

Scribblerg’s stats for “women marrying later in life” to “high-income earning men” (aka wall-approachers settling with beta bucks) doesn’t take into account happiness levels of the men or numbers of dead bedrooms or how the woman looks etc. I bet THAT chart would be fun to look at lol

“I vote with YaReally on marriage. Call me a cunt if you like, IDGAF. LOL”
❀ It's really only like 4-5 old dudes here throwing a fuss and at least one of them (Blaximus) doesn't even really understand my position (he seems to think not promising monogamy and not legally marrying means SJF would just go out and knock up 50 girls and run out on his kids lol which makes no sense, Sentient is fucking on the side and he's not some absentee father) and would probably agree with me if he could stop taking this shit as a personal attack on HIS marriage instead of adding "in 2016" to the end of everything.

"If my son or Sentient’s son (at any age) decided to “lock down” a HB8+ at her age of 23 in the next ten years. Because he wanted to. I’d tell him to go for it after him vetting her the best he could for two years. If he wanted to be with her indefinitely because she was better than other girls out there along the way. If he wanted to have children and raise them to adulthood. Married or not, monogamous or not carry on the LTR."

Sounds great to me. I'd high-five him. There's just no reason he can't do all of that without the legal marriage contract (just like our great great grandparents did) or promising monogamy (and simply choosing to not stray on her, which, really is a pretty big compliment on her end, that he's ALLOWED to have other girls but chooses her OVER them VS being contractually obligated to choose her).

This is the arrangement I'd like to see and why I'm bringing the topic up. How can we equip your son, in his red pill training he's getting from you, to navigate arranging this setup without a legal marriage contract or promising monogamy. (hell, he can even promise monogamy if he wants to not piss off God or whatever, it's more the legal marriage contract part that has the worst consequences lol)

"See, it is not true there are no benefits of this to him."

In what way does it benefit him that he can't have the same benefits without legal marriage? He can still lock her down, vet her, be with her indefinitely because she's better than other girls, have children with her, and raise them to adulthood with her, and even just live together forever happily ever after.

None of that requires a legal contract and insane levels of risk.

"And what the fuck is wrong with “benefiting” your woman partner or, FFS, benefiting your children?"

You can benefit them the same way without a legal marriage contract. Write up whatever legal documents, wills, etc you like to ensure that they're taken care of, as we discussed with kfg/DisgruntledEarthling earlier in the thread. As far as your children know, you two are married, they will never know that 5 years before they were born you didn't move your hand in a scribbling motion on a piece of paper in a lawyer's office. You don't have to put up a banner saying "WE AREN'T LEGALLY MARRIED EVERYONE" on your front lawn, you just handle it in private and everything else you do exactly the same as if you had signed it.

"And no one can tell me logically there is no benefit to this."

Well, yes, we CAN lol If you can tell us what benefit there is for your son to marry that girl, that he can't get without legally signing that contract, great, we'd like to hear it so we can analyze it and see if there are alternatives for him to get that same benefit minus the legal risks.

If you can't name any benefits that he can't get without signing the legal document, well, then there aren't any.

"And no man should operate out of fear that someone will take half his shit, so why try to do what he wants to do."

Ok, will you post the password to your bank account? Probalby not. Because that's a risky situation with no real reward for you and no one here can give you a reason it would benefit you, only put you at risk.

"If he doesn’t want to raise children well and have a solid plan for that, then don’t. I don’t need other peoples shitty kids around."

No one is advocating for absentee fatherism.

"You implied marriage. I didn’t just now."

I just agreed with you up above specifically because you didn't mention legal marriage. I think the arrangement you described in the first paragraph about your son and a girl is a fantastic arrangement. Inarguably the best environment possible to raise a kid in. It just doesn't require a legal marriage contract (or promising monogamy).

You SEEM to be understanding this now, so I'm more talking to the crowd reading this.

"But then again, I’m not out to save all 90% of inept lost boys in the manosphere."

Yes, we're very aware of the contempt you have for men who you view as beneath you.

"If it didn’t work out and he fucked up. Even if he cuts his losses. At any time he can adapt and dump her."

Yup, it would just be easier for him to do so if he wasn't contractually obligated to give her cash & prizes and pay alimony for life etc on TOP of the child support.

"LTR game on the other hand often means not walking away when one meets resistance. It means bellying up to resistance and smirking “No Big Deal” and not walking away because your superpowers (Mastery) was not adequate to overcome that resistance."

Agreed. So why not avoid hampering your ability to fully use those superpowers with a legal contract when there's no benefit TO signing it?

"Notice I didn’t say marriage."

I'm glad that you aren't. We probably agree just like Blaximus would probably agree, once you guys stop taking this as a personal attack on you and your marriages from your time. We are talking about men in 2016, getting legally married to women in 2016, in 2016 culture/influences.

"It is quite necessary to do this without emotional weakness on the part of the man. How the fuck otherwise would she ever respect you?"

Agreed. It would probably be easier to not show emotional weakness if you didn't have half your assets, alimony, etc dangling over your head. Imagine just how little emotional weakness you would show if you had no consequence at all for her deciding to leave you (relatively speaking compared to a 10+ year married guy who's in lifetime alimony "accustomed to a certain standard of living" territory).

"If the Next! hammer is relied on as your most used tool in the toolbox just because it works well most times, perhaps you should acquire more Game tools."

I don't disagree with this, walawala is close to seeing BPD around every corner and should be careful of that, buuuut I also think you need to go out and date a bunch of 2016 girls to understand why he's banging the hammer so frequently lol We are working with different materials than you guys were, in terms of what women bring to the table and what behaviors and beliefs have become socially acceptable for them etc

"most of the time when a guy isn’t successful in a relationship with fine, non-defective femaleit’s because he wasn’t good enough to accomplish the goal."

Then he DEFINITELY shouldn't be signing a legal marriage contract.

"Pretty much every man that turned around his game in married red pill has come to the realization that it was him the had his head up his ass and improved his game."

Now if only they could tell us what benefit they received from legally signing that piece of paper that they couldn't have gotten by just executing all that red pill badassery in the first place…? Want to try to answer that question? lol

"There is an awful lot of conflating Marriage with marriage(tm) going on in this thread."

Agreed. I wonder if it's an issue of like, these old guys haven't really been around alternative types of relationships and haven't SEEN couples who are perfectly happy together raising decent kids but simply aren't married or promising monogamy etc. Like, have they just not seen anything but bad examples of that (like the ghetto which has problems related more to poverty and other shit that are causing what we see there)?

It's like they have two options:

1) be legally married and live together in a loving 2-parent happy household raising good kids


lol like, just don't sign that piece of paper but do EVERYTHING else the same. Why is this hard to grasp?

on September 10th, 2016 at 2:57 pm
Original Link

@Trent Lane
“You can’t really expect other men to share intimate details of their marriages, why they married, what they see as benefits of their life situation – stuff that COULD be very useful to the content of the discussion – if you constantly refer to their OLD POST WALL MENOPAUSAL WIFES, GREAT THAT YOU GAVE YOUR 60 YEAR OLD WIFE A RIDE AGAIN LAST YEAR BRO, THAT DOESN’T HELP ANY YOUNG GUY JACK SHIT IN 2016!! when they fail to share your point lol.”

lol these are relevant details though. Their wives are old and past their prime SMV, this is just logic, widely accepted across all red pill communities. I’m sure they’re GREAT PEOPLE and I’m sure they love eachother a ton, but when we’re discussing making an LTR work, a post-wall woman is a very different situation than a 21yo.

We can avoid pointing that out, but then the discussion is tainted by avoiding stepping on toes which starts turning things into a hugbox where we avoid uncomfortable truths.

It would be more useful if they could check their emotions for a second and go “okay, that is OBJECTIVELY not debatable, my wife is still a great person and I love her but yet, she IS objectively by any red pill age measurement, past the wall and the experiences I’m sharing are in dealing with a woman who is post-wall, which is not what men in 2016 are looking to settle with so yes, my experiences will have less direct relevant than if we could go back in time and we were talking about guys in my era picking up girls in our culture”.

“That’s why I tried to summarize the discussion”

Your summary was fantastic and reading it I was like “yes this is exactly what I’m seeing, thank god someone else can see it”. But will any of them read it or stop and go “oh, okay, I guess my points aren’t really making sense in this context”? It would be nice if they did lol but Blaximus probably thinks you’re just an asshole like me for writing it out.

“I too believe the content is vitally important for the majority of men in the year 2016 and coming generations and don’t want to lose track of it.”

Agreed. Like I say, none of Rollo’s Red Pill parenting books are going to matter if we can’t find a way to keep men in homes around their children, and the current system is progressively NOT doing that, and we have no alternative system right now which WILL probably result in everyone “winging it” and widespread ghetto culture…unless we can give men a solid alternative plan to consider and train them on it.

I presented a plan to kfg (I think) a couple comments ago about when to knock a girl up and have her focus on her career later in life etc, and asked for the opinions of the old married guys…will any of them read it and offer any opinons on it? I don’t know, but it would be nice if they did so we could work out kinks and flaws in it.

“And the key question remains: If you want to have kids and raise them in a stable man-woman household in the year 2016 as a positive father figure, is there a way besides marriage and monogamy we can work out, at least theoretically?”

That’s all I’ve been asking from the start lol But to even GET there we have to get past legal marriage and promising monogamy (when she has social media, orbiters, works in male spaces, males in her social circles, etc) as even being an OPTION.

“– Suggestion: Ideally getting your partner pregnant early, fast and young instead of delaying it past the NRE stage.

Pro: There’s the bonding, she’s occupied, emotionally invested, has drama + feelz + less time and intention for orbiters and nuking the relationship out of boredom, yes/no?

Con: This takes sharp screening skills because getting the wrong woman pregnant, as we all agree, can fuck your life. This sort of screening skills only come with an amount of game/experience
that at the present moment 0,000000789% of the male population possess. The others would have to bet on sheer luck, which is not an option we can legitimately recommend, yes/no?

– Suggestion: After initially getting your partner pregnant early, ideally keeping her pregnant again during critical phases of the LTR aka the seven year itch.”

Holy SHIT, see NOW we’re getting somewhere. I sincerely thank you for writing this next part up and actually doing what I was hoping would be done back when I originally brought the discussion up. I thought we would all do something like this and contribute, I didn’t expect to run into this massive wall of rage.

I’m bolding this so it stands out, so maybe people can re-read your post and go “oh okay, I get it, I’ll contribute my old man wisdom to this discussion now, where do I see pros and cons in these ideas from my wise old man perspective?”

So THANK YOU, for helping finally START the discussion.

Posting this before I respond to it, to hopefully cut off more argument flame war shit. Can everyone please read Trent Lane’s post:

Thanks again Trent, this is literally all I’ve been asking for from the start.

on September 10th, 2016 at 3:32 pm
Original Link

@Trent Lane
AGAIN thanks for participating. This is literally exactly the type of thing I THOUGHT everyone would be excited to do off the initial discussion topic. I didn’t expect to run into having to convince people legal marriage and promised monogamy and taking needless risks with no tangible rewards that can’t be obtained in other ways, were not optimal beneficial things for men lol This is all I’ve been wanting…let’s look at potential strategies and figure out the pros and cons of them, combining all our knowledge of attraction, experience in relationships, marriages, etc and find a better system with a lower risk rate.

“– Suggestion: Ideally getting your partner pregnant early, fast and young instead of delaying it past the NRE stage.”

“Con: This takes sharp screening skills because getting the wrong woman pregnant, as we all agree, can fuck your life. This sort of screening skills only come with an amount of game/experience that at the present moment 0,000000789% of the male population possess. The others would have to bet on sheer luck, which is not an option we can legitimately recommend, yes/no?”

Agreed. Men would have to learn to screen faster. Although one could ask: do you really know your partner THAT much better after 7 years than you did after 2 years? Like how many shocks and unexpected things about them REALLY pop up in year 5 that you had NO idea about in year 1? Like I’m probably not going to discover any real shocking revelations about a buddy I’ve known for 10 years at this point, and most of what I know about him now I knew in the first year of hanging with him.

The early stages are when the main surprises come out…the first few months a lot of stuff is hidden obviously, and for the duration of the NRE stage a lot of stuff is toned down.

So we could look at what are the prime moments where a girl has incentive to “let her hair down” and either let things out that she was hiding, or simply slack off on things because she feels less risk in doing so:

1) After the first 3-5 months, when she’s still in the NRE but you two have fallen into enough of a routine that she isn’t necessarily bringing out her full A game like she did in the first month or two…what signs can a guy be looking for at this stage? Does she have healthy gym habits, has she slacked off on going to the gym now compared to when you met her? Have you tested to see if she cooks/cleans/etc? Does her apartment look messier more often now than when you first met? Has she ever cooked for you and how enthusiastic is she about the idea? Is she still pushing for sex as frequently as month 1 or are you initiating it more? How is her social media usage around you?

2) After that probably the NRE stage ending between 8 months to 2 years is where the next big wave of “holy shit I didn’t know she was like this” comes out. So again, re-evaluate those same things and add some more now that you’ve probably met her family etc. What are her parents like and what can you extrapolate from their behavior/belifs? These are standard screening things but here’s an example of a change:

A lot of guys right now try to AVOID meeting the family for as long as possible, because it’s awkward and shit. And they approach it from a frame of the family screening THEM to deserve their daughter. But if a guy is looking to settle, we could encourage him to actively try to meet the family sooner, like in the first 6 months, to help screen her faster, and to have the mindset of screening THEM and HER to help vet quicker.

3) Once you promise monogamy, more shit wil come out, as she doesn’t dread losing you like at the start.

4) Engagement ring, where she gets nice and comfy and spends her time planning a wedding where you can see how much she cares about the wedding and validation VS caring about you and the relationship etc

5) After the wedding/honeymoon and her big validation party are over, how does she behave?

6) Legally signing the marriage contract, where you’re locked in.

7) Her being pregnant, where she can use hormones as an excuse for a lot of shit.

8) After the kid’s a couple years old where you can see how much effort she’s going to put into getting back in shape and being pleasant etc, or if she’s just going to let everything go.

Stages 3 and 6 we can avoid completely by just not doing those things…Stages 4 and 5 you can voluntarily do if you like, to give the illusion that you’re legally married without signing the contract, but they’re technically optional.

Stage 7 and 8 are mandatory, because the whole point of this is having kids. So ultimately stages 1, 2, 7 and 8 are the mandatory ones that every guy WILL have to deal with. So that’s 4 times where her incentive to keep up good behavior or not reveal bad behavior are compromised.

The guys who like the IDEA of a traditional wedding and monogamy etc have to do 1, 2, 7, 8 as well, but would also voluntarily be adding 3, 4, and 5 to it (avoiding stage 6). So that’s 7 points where her incentive to keep up good behavior or not reveal bad behavior are compromised.

A guy following the FI conditioned traditional route would be running into all 8 stages and stage 6 is a MASSIVE one because of the relative value of what that stage is worth VS the other stages.

So say we equip a guy with specific things to look for, and have him doing things like meeting the family sooner rather than later (with the intention of getting her preggers within the NRE stage so in <2 years). What other things could they do that they would normally do in year 5 or 7, but could be ramped up to that first couple years?

Also, we could look at what things aren't WORTH screening for now…which takes us into what SJF was saying about walawala's NEXT-hammer. The reality is, you're probably going to have to accept a few flaws, nobody is perfect, I'm sure every married dude here could name a few objective not-a-big-deal flaws with their wife.

Like you're probably not going to find a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 that doesn't have at least FACEBOOK, or SOME form of social media. And trying to get her to delete all of that is unrealistic, it'll trigger family and friends to whisper in her ear about how you're abusive and fuck with the relationship. So screening for girls who have social media at all, is probably going to weed out a lot of girls that, if you got them preggers young, would have too much else going on to bother maintaining that…VS if you have a monoLTR for 7 years with her and she's bored because she doesn't have kids to keep her busy. So getting them preggers earlier rather than later might help counter the social media stuff which means a guy might not HAVE to screen out a girl who has social media, which gives him more options in 2016.

You're probably not going to find a <25yo 8+/10 who doesn't have male orbiters in her life, so screening them out means just never settling or having kids, which is no good. And trying to make her abandon them will trigger a lot of interference from her friends and family whispering in her ear about how abusive you are. But if a guy can learn group theory and AMOG theory and learn to accept that there will always be guys chasing his hot wife and learn to reframe them as not a big deal so his subcomms are in check etc, combined with knocking her up in the NRE stage, that could all help neutralize that and mean that a guy doesn't HAVE to screen out girls who have orbiters, which gives him more options in 2016.

Posting this before getting to the rest to again hopefully put off the flame war stuff lol

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to get input on from everyone, including the old experienced guys. Nice and simple, just a discussion of the issues in 2016 and how to counter them, alternative plans and their pros/cons and how to counter those, etc

on September 10th, 2016 at 4:26 pm
Original Link

@Trent Lane
I’m still sick so I’m stuck inside tonight again😦 and will get to your other points on the strategy but got distracted by this bit lol

“Yeah, this whole conversation has bugged me a lot too lol I also you think there is another (but connected) you get such an intense pushback.”

Oh ya there’s a ton of little dynamics going on here that are interesting as fuck because I didn’t expect to see them here lol

“You can feel that Blax, SJF etc are really RILED UP by your arguments, and that this emotion is stronger than the one you feel when you are just proven wrong in a logical argument.

I think their reaction is so strong because in their times, being a husband was a HUGE part of someone’s identity, I think we can even say it’s at the CORE of someone’s life, more than probably anything else.

Therefore you questioning mariage, is for them you putting into question a huge part of their life, that’s why you get such hostile reactions I think.”

Right. That’s why I keep adding “in 2016” and trying to stress over and over not to take this stuff as us saying THEIR marriage is going to fail or that THEIR wives are going to divorce-rape them etc And as long as we keep the discussion surface-level, there’s no real hardcore pushback. But once we get into “why did YOU get married, and can you see how the reasons you had were 1) an illusion, you could have had those things without the legal contract, and/or 2) based on conditioning/feels, there’s no actual logic behind them”, it triggers hostile defense because it’s as if I’m saying “YOU are dumb and YOU were fooled and YOUR reasons are STUPID”.

When really all I’m trying to do is show how close the belief that marriage is the right thing to do, is aligned with FI-conditioning. That’s why I keep going back to what actual tangible benefits are there? Because I know there aren’t any. The benefits, when you look at them close, come down to conditioning and feels.

That doesn’t mean feels-based reasons are BAD, I’m not making a judgement call on it, Blax and his wife truly believed that before his signature was on that piece of paper they were in a different relationship with a different set of rules and after he moved his hand in a few looping motions with a pen in it, and that belief IN that different is part of what has helped them stay together and have a great marriage all this time…

…BUT, that doesn’t change that objectively that was all just conditioning they received and, to someone not raised in that culture at that time, who wasn’t conditioned to FEEL like there’s more value on marriage VS just dating and that marriage comes with a new set of rules, that signature on the piece of paper doesn’t carry the same weight or influence.

I’m not judging his reasons as BAD or STUPID. I’m just pointing out that they’re feels-based, based on the social conditioning at the time, which is different from the social conditioning now where it’s becoming almost COMMONPLACE to be married more than once and the complete lack of value or rules women attribute to marriage now. As walawala (I think) said: women to marriage is the big wedding party, not the actual hard work and change of rules that make a relationship work long-term.

That’s why I say I don’t think Blax would even disagree with me, if he didn’t think I was saying something I’m not. Like if he read the above, he’s a pretty rational/objective guy when he’s chill and I think he could see “okay, ya, I guess that WAS conditioning…as long as you aren’t talking shit about my wife!!” lol

These things are important because before we can really embrace new alternatives and troubleshoot them so that they avoid ending up like the free for all ghetto nightmare version of “alternatives”, we have to first accept that there’s a reason to even entertain a discussion like this.

“It’s truly fascinating to me.”

You and me both lol I’m glad I’m sick this weekend so I didn’t have to miss any of this, it’s been interesting as fuck to see from the last place I would expect to find it.

“and to develop on that, imagine what getting a divorce does do a guy whose role as a husband (and all the obligations that come with it) is at the core of his identity.

No wonder so many guys kill themselves in this situ. It’s not just the sudden lack of sex and companionship, but probably also that their whole reason for living is gone”

Agreed. When I question marriage, I’m questioning a lot of guys’ purpose/identity, or implying that their identity was based on socially conditioned–not necessarily deception, but socially conditioned influences at least, VS objective logic.

I think that’s probably part of why it’s hard for them to picture a stable loving 2-parent household raising a kid without a signature on a piece of paper and they revert to the doom & gloom scenarios, because ALL of that stuff is tied to the concept of legal marriage to them. SJF seems to be starting to separate legal marriage from “being together lovingly raising kids for a long period of time voluntarily”, which is great. But as soon as Sentient and Blaximus brought out the ghetto shooting videos I was like “okay there’s some serious disconnect going on here” lol

@Anonymous Reader
“PS: Nothing you’ve written changes the facts, even your graph supports the facts of what has been happening to marriage, and will continue to happen.”

This is really what it comes down to. Even if the risks are 1% chance of divorce, that doesn’t change that none of that 100% of marriages needed to be legally contracted for the man to have the exact same life minus the noose.

Like this isn’t about “you, personally you, are stupid and wrong”, it’s about “the data is showing what we’re saying”. But most of the responses to “what benefits does a man in 2016 get from a woman in 2016, in 2016 culture, by legally signing a marriage contract and promising monogamy, that he can’t get without doing those 2 things?” is either vague or just full out personal attacks on me about what a piece of shit ignorant child I am trying to discredit me and get me to shut up lol

But I understand those personal attacks come because there’s no data/logic to use instead and what I’m suggesting is questioning massive core beliefs so it’s all good.

“I see what you did there. You defined game there. I’m Hugely into game.”

My bad, by “who aren’t in the game at all” I meant “who aren’t in the game of sticking their dicks inside <25yo 8+/10 pussy in 2016". That's not a judgement call, that's just objectively you aren't doing that, that's all. Again, not a judgement call and not devaluing your opinion, just saying that you don't have direct experience with LTRing a <25yo 8+/10. That's not a judgement call on your worth as a person, that's an objective statement that I don't think you would disagree with.

"And anyone that settles for a girl not <25 or HB8+ is a settler. I do not advise ever to settle."

I've never said that. But I do point out that we're hoping to get men to pop out babies with prime hot girls, which is my focus.

"Nothing. Nothing at all. If you can accomplish that and eat your cake too."

Agreed. That's why I'd like to discuss strategy on this and how to address the situation if the kids DO become aware of it, what are the best approaches to have that conversation (things we can take from the poly/open/etc communities (and even divorcees) who no doubt have had to deal with those "mommy and daddy love eachother even though our relationship isn't traditional" situations). And even then how much is a kid even going to question things when his friends are being raised by single moms, cheating couples, lesbians, etc and all their social conditioning on TV is about how normal non-traditional relationships are? "Normal" and the examples children are seeing in the media of "normal" has changed pretty significantly compared to the 50s.

"Especially if she has a shit ton of value after you get done banging here and she raises those children great? (I know, I know that calls for a special unicorn and you being on your game 24/7, and we all know those girls don’t exist and as a man, that’s impossible.)"

Why do you guys keep saying I'm saying it's impossible when I specifically say, every single time, that it's not impossible, it's just significantly more difficult/rare and not something 90% of men can rely on? And if you find that girl, great, settle with her, but you don't legally marry her, that's all. (and don't promise monogamy if you're young and haven't hit your prime SMV yet where you're going to have a lot of temptations, whether you choose to act on them or not, like Sentient banging strippers when he's out of town etc)

"Say there is a unicorn out there in 1990 or in 2018 and you want to be with her."

This is entirely possible, my argument is simply that there are less unicorns now than in your guys' day (unicorns being <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016 who respect the sanctity of marriage and don't use social media and all that).

"If things progress nicely over 4 years (two years vetting and two years of committing). And you had a child in the 6th year and another one in the 8th year). And then you want to raise them to 21. You enjoy it and it works out."

See that brings us to the strategy Trent Lane and I are discussing above, which I'd like your opinion on. What if instead of 6 years before you have kids, you vet her hard for two years and have the child in the NRE stage instead of waiting until you're almost at the 7-year itch?

Have you discovered things at the 4 year point that were surprise dealbreakers to you compared to the 2 year point? Or could you have made an educated guess at the 2 year point about what you would probably know about her at the 4 year point?

These are sincere questions.

"What if I said for any reason (social conventions, her, her mom, her father, whatever) that if you didn’t marry her then: You get nothing, you lose, good day sir?"

It would be her loss, ultimately. Just like it would be her loss if she wouldn't put out unless I bought her dinner, or if she wouldn't marry me unless I bought an expensive enough ring, or if she wouldn't live with me unless I stopped talking to my friends, etc

In any other scenario we would advise the guy to not compromise his values and enter an arrangement out of scarcity. I would advice him instead to work on setting the frame (from the start) that love doesn't require a legal contract.

I would have him pitch back to whoever's controlling the scenario: "what if we do everything related to a wedding, change our names, live together, raise kids together etc, but I simply don't sign that piece of paper and you just trust that if we break up, I'll be a fair and compassionate man if we break up and voluntarily make sure she's taken care of long enoough to get back on her feet"

If he's still unable to have her, then, again, it's her loss. He has all his resources and the same charm charisma etc he had before, and all the time in the world to find another one and enjoy the search. She's the one with the baby timer. It would be unfortunate, but he did what he could since he has no way to predict that she'll stay as perfect as she was, forever, especially once she has no fear of losing him.

"It’s fine to next her for safety, but my contention is that you do what you want to do with contingencies and proceed forward with what is necessary to fulfill your goals."

You are free to do as you like, but I'll bet a lot of divorce-raped men wish that they hadn't taken such a lopsided risk.

"I just defined a benefit, real or imagined, of signing a contract. In my world not yours."

What? What benefit? Getting the girl? I mean, you better have a whole stable of perfect unicorns guaranteed to be perfect forever or you're gonna have a lot of cats running around the house in 10-15 years lol

Plenty of women try to get guys to commit, invest, etc before they let the guy have them, and we handle that the same way every time: be your own mental point of origin, don't supplicate out of scarcity, etc.

Here's a counter-hypothetical for you I just came up with lol This isn't me being an asshole, I'm legitimately curious how you would handle this situation based on your MPO values etc:

Say the exact same scenario you proposed, I've been dating your daughter and you've vetted me as a quality dude for her (remember this is hypothetical lol) and I've vetted her as a prime unicorn I want to settle for my whole life with. You lay out the marriage deal to me and I go "Sir I understand your values etc and I will think deeply about what you've said to me" and you pat me on the back and trust that I'll come around.

A couple weeks later your daughter comes to you and says "Daddy, I just found out I'm a month pregnant!" because we didn't use protection in a moment of passion (accident? maaaaybe lol).

So now she's pregnant with my child. And I tell you I will absolutely take care of her forever, I love her dearly, I've already picked out the house for our family to raise our kids and grow old in, hell, I'll even promise monogamy because she's perfect enough that I won't ever be tempted by another girl, and I'll draw up legal contracts to make sure her and your soon-to-be grandson are taken care of financially if anything happens to me and we'll change our names and throw a wedding and you have walk her down the aisle and EVERYTHING.

…buuuut I won't sign that legal paper. EVERYTHING ELSE, I'm totally down for, I just don't want the legal noose around my neck. And the baby is due in 8 months.

What do you do?

Remember it's a sincere question, not an attack on you or your daughter or anything. You asked me a scenario, so I'm asking you a twist on it, nothing malicious.

"The fear of trends"

There is no fear of trends here, just discussion of them and calculating odds, just like there's no fear of getting bad cards in a poker game when you discuss poker strategy, there's just "pocket Aces has better odds pre-flop than 2/7o"

on September 10th, 2016 at 4:51 pm
Original Link

@SJF @kfg
“For people looking to help the 90% of men who haul block, “class up” is ceasing to be a valid strategy.”

This. Like it’s great if you were born into the perfect culture for this, that’s awesome, I hope it works out for you. But the rest of men out there aren’t and need solutions. You don’t HAVE to care about them because they’re beneath you, but I don’t think disregarding them as not worth caring about is a very “virtuous” way to view your fellow man in general.

“Honest questions, I have never raised a kid, so I’m asking for the input of you guys. I’m interested in trying to find ways to raise a child properly in an oLTR”

But ya, I’d like to know these things too. And to add to them:

What is the difference to you between you staying at work late, or going out with friends for the night, or going on a camping trip, or going away on a business trip for the night, and Sentient banging a stripper when he’s on business?

Like in all those scenarios, the kid only knows what you tell him, if you tell him anything at all beyond “Daddy will be home late tonight”. And even then, you could squeeze banging an FB into your noon hour at work or at a point in the day when your kid and wife aren’t around. Or maybe you keep it purely to when you’re away on business, etc

As long as you come home and love your wife and she loves you, what effect do you see Sentient fooling around on a business trip having on a kid that you going away for business and spending the night in your hotel room alone wouldn’t also have?

Again not an attack, just an honest objective question, so we can think about where/how to fit in other girls without disrupting family life or the child’s development.

(fuck we need a lot of trigger warnings just to ask simple questions around here lol)

@Anonymous Reader
“So if the US slowly slides down into a “favelas as far as you can see, with a handful of gated and guarded communties in the middle” like Brazli, you’d be down with that? That’d be ok with you? You don’t mind a vanishing middle class, as long as you can say “I Got Mine, Jack, Sucks To Be You” to your neighbors?”

This. Like, those ghetto gone wild vids are scary as fuck. But we may be headed toward that en masse without some kind of strategy/structure/system for men. We have one right now but it’s massively flawed and comes with insane levels of risk and punishment for no discernable reward that can’t be gotten through other means.

There’s a point where it’s going to affect the UMC, if not the people within it themselves, but the society they live in.

“That is very objectively debatable. My wife still has very high SMV and is very attractive by any measure, age or otherwise. That is totally irrelevant to any other guy out there. It shouldn’t matter to any one else.”

Trent how do I respond to this without sound like an asshole?? lol It’s not irrelevant to the discussion. Her being in her 50s(?) and presumably unable to have kids now (? can’t remember how old she is lol) changes dynamics compared to her being 21 and in her prime fertility window. That’s just, how can you be red pill and debate that? lol

“Red Pill awareness is not strategy for the modern man.”


“You are describing what AFC’s and blue pill men conditioned by the FI would do.”

Lots of red pill guys still fall for that stuff. Tons.

“But I think it is laughable to think that the premise is that this means bargaining (it doesn’t) from a place of scarcity a priori *. No. Not the exact same thing”

In what way is “you can’t have me unless you legally sign this massively risky contract” not the same as “you can’t have this thiing you want unless you do this thing that comes with potential downsides for you” and how is agreeing to that not bargaining from a place of scarcity to you? If you had abundance you could say “no thanks” and find something with less risk.

“You can have whatever values you want, but if a man wants to master the challenges of women, work and sexual desires, then he should look to those men who actually have experiences, have been in the trenches and have succeeded.”

Unfortunately we don’t have men in the trenches in 2016 who have succeeded with girls raised in this 2016 culture, for more than a couple years at least. But we have plenty of men dead in the trenches who failed at it. An unimaginable number of men dead in the trenches.

“I’m not religious, but it is an observation that is backed up by populations surveys. Last time I checked the marriage and non-divorced percentage is high. Very high. And it is very observable all around me.”

Any private surveys of the happiness levels of the husbands and the weight of the wives and frequency of sex etc to go with it? lol

“Does this mean do not marry unless you are UMC? Perhaps, because the odds are against you.”

I mean, that’s been my point since the start lol For the vast majority of men, the odds are against them in a legal marriage. Like I say, I don’t think you guys would even disagree with me if you could focus on these not being personal attacks about YOUR marriage but just objective observations about marriage in 2016.

@SJF @Klem
“Other question : if you can pull that off, at around what age would you consider telling him/her about your open arrangement with their mum?

Stupidest question ever. Re-read the rules of fight club.”

lol now THIS we can agree on. Don’t pro-actively bring it up, keep it discreet and on the side and focus on being a good dad and family man. Save it for business trips etc like Sentient and the kid will probably never know until he’s an adult and old enough to understand it.

BUT, if it DOES come up, like something happens (your wife mentioning it), it’s worth discussing how to approach that conversation. Again we could look to the poly/open/swinger/divorced/etc communities for how to help a child understand that mommy and daddy can still love eachother and love them even if daddy has a playfriend, just like you (the child) loves daddy but that doesn’t mean you don’t love mommy, etc etc Could probably script this stuff up into some solid routines.

on September 10th, 2016 at 5:17 pm
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@Trent Lane
Once again, thanks for answering so we can have an actual discussion on strategy.

“– Suggestion: After initially getting your partner pregnant early, ideally keeping her pregnant again during critical phases of the LTR aka the seven year itch.”

Right, if you could screen/vett in 2 years and make enough of an educated guess to knock her up while she’s still in the NRE stage (and is more likely to be open to putting her career on hold etc than when she’s out of the NRE stage or bored around the 7 year mark which is what a lot of couples try these days (like SJF said kids in year 6)). Pregnancy to preschool/kindergarten is probably 5 years-ish. So you’d be at about the 7 year itch mark when that kid is going off to school…bang her raw during the preschool years and knock her up so that she passes the 7 year mark pregnant.

If she was say 23 when you met her (because <23yo girls are often still retarded lol but 23 they're often starting to feel "too old" for the bar scene etc, and aren't massively invested in their careers yet like a 27yo), 2 years vetting and she's pregnant around 25. Seems like perfect timing. Throw 4-5 years on there to get the first kid off to school and knock her up so she's pregnant around the 29-30 year mark right when, NORMALLY, she would be bored because she doesn't have kids yet and be flirting on social media etc, instead because she's preggers she's got other shit to worry about all day. Tack on 4-5 years to get that kid off to school and now she's 34-35, hitting the wall, noticing attention start to slow up slightly (she doesn't get carded buying liquor etc lol). And the first kid is about to enter his crazy teen years where she'll have tons of drama to deal with to keep her busy and/or she can work from home or rejoin the workforce but now as a wall-aged woman VS being the plucky young 23yo secretary working around Mad Men flirting with her that she was when you met her.

SJF, Sentient, Blaximus, etc: sincerely what do you think of a plan like that, based on your experience with how women do/don't change during preganancy and during the initial child-rearing years and any dynamics that shift, etc. Where do you see flaws in that overall structure?

"Con: This whole constellation inherently relies on the male being the main if not sole breadwinner, which means you’d have to get your finances in check from the start, even more so if you want multiple kids, plural."

Agreed. We can assume by default that she's not going to be starting a business from home when she's preggers lol She might but low odds to rely on that. So a guy would absolutely have to be prepared to finance all of this, and have a realistic perspective of how much it DOES cost to raise a kid (I've run into red pill guys in the communities who ARE rich and are like "ya, I can afford a kid so it's no big deal" because they've looked at the costs and have significantly more than enough to cover it).

"This conflicts somewhat with the hyperfocus on game you’d need early in life to realistically develop the screening skills you’d need to be able to select the woman who’s the right partner for you and the mother of your children, yes/no?"

A very good point, and why I'm bringing the discussion up. But remember: we're shooting for <25yo 8+/10 WOMEN…but that doesn't mean we need the men to be the same age. The May-December relationships are a pretty natural thing anyway ('cause the older man has a stronger frame and provisioning etc than her peers).

I picture something like this:

A guy works on pickup/game from in his college years where he's surrounded with social opportunities and would be going out and partying a bunch and living in dorms and shit ANYWAY, and a lot of guys take a year before they go off to college to go travel etc. So he could hyperfocus on game for a year or two somewhere in the 20-25 years. From 25+ he can focus on career stuff. A lot of people work jobs that don't end up being or having any relevance to their career right out of college anyway so he's only really a year or two behind everyone else on that front, but his social skills (and ability to network to FIND job opportunities) and sex life is light-years ahead of the average guy.

He enjoys the single life and learns to screen as he works on his career until he's say, mid-30s. By then he's met some crazy bitches, he's met some cool chicks, he's learned what he likes, probably had some LTRs of various lengths etc and he's been able to work on his career because he hyperfocused back in his early 20s on learning game.

Around 35 he's still not old enough to where he has to put much work into getting <25yo 8+/10 girls…if he takes care of his looks/health he'll probably LOOK 27-ish to most girls anyway. So he should have no problem attracting a girl in that prime category. He's got his career handled solid, is financially stable, he's got a lot of experience with vetting women, and he has the strategy in mind to find and vet a young hottie, knock her up in the NRE stage, and execute the plan described above.

So they met when she was 23 and he was 35. By the time she's 35 and hitting the wall, he's only 47. Mid/late 40s isn't old at ALL these days. Tons of spry guys running around at that age, if they take care of themselves etc. Like I say, Duchoveny and Cullum were in their late 40s on Californication and they looked fully capable of running around with their kids and keeping their wife satified in bed etc

So how about that overall plan for a guy? What if every guy was equipped with a guideline like this (say the logistics of making that happen were actually figured out and guys would listen lol)?

Do any parts of this plan seem unrealistic/crazy? What pros/cons do you see to it? It seems fairly solid to me, but the point is to put it through questioning to see what's missing or needs addressing.

on September 10th, 2016 at 5:45 pm
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@Trent Lane
Just to stress again: thank-you for answering and participating in the dicussion, this is all I was looking for when I first proposed the questions. I didn’t want that big sidetrack lol I thought we’d be discussing stuff like this in the first few replies.

“– Suggestion: You may have to accept that she will/have to stray some time past the NRE stage to realize other dudes are dull shit compared to you and come back.”

Right…we know Hypergamy needs to choose the highest-value option and we know they’re being bombarded with options (that from afar LOOK like good options), and we know that women test a man’s value by interacting with him and seeing him in action and how he acts/reacts to the world and vice versa (basic pickup 101 there), and that in profiles and shit guys are able to hide their flaws and put on a show to fool their Hypergamy into thinking they might be a good option, especially if they flat out lie and promise her the world when they have no intention of doing so.

Also a girl who’s bored out of her mind waiting 6+ years to have kids with you, 4-5 years out of the NRE stage, working in offices with high-value guys and going on girls’ nights out etc, is more likely to be more work to deal with orbiters/social-media/etc-wise than a girl you knock up in year 2 who’s kept busy with kids for the next 10 years.

“Pro: If you know this and can live with this you can take preperations and probably manage it pretty safely, yes/no?”

Right, there’s a lot of outer AND inner game stuff you can do to deal with these things. From internal stuff like learning not to view them as actual threats and not reacting (understanding the whoever reacts 0.0001% more has lower value dynamic) and understanding that her hindbrain isn’t going to give up this world of options and her friends/family will poison the LTR if you force her to, and understanding that what you feel she feels and the more you believe you’re the best option for her (even if you acknowledge that she has other options), the more likely you are to stay triggering her Hypergamy…

And external stuff like actual AMOG tactics and tooling the guys and framing them as being chodes with crushes on her, or even more severe ones like purposely dumping her for a few months a few years after your first kid is born, so that she HAS to go find out other guys are lame and find out how hard life is without you as she tries to figure out how to take care of herself and the baby etc, and then get back with her.

The kid would be too young to remember anything happened, and she’s so grateful to have you that you extend the NRE AND, now that I think about it, BOTH of you would have incentive to rawdog it and get her preggers again…she would want to get pregnant to make SURE you stick around (because when you got back together you tell her “sorry I panicked about being a dad it was really scary and I didn’t know if I was ready for it but then I realized I love our kid and I could never leave him and I missed you and I just freaked out and I’m sorry but I want to be with you”, so she knows “ok he can’t leave his kids so lets have more kids”), and YOU would want her to get pregnant so that you’re covered till she hits the wall.

Genius lol Anyone see problems with that? Aside from being all sorts of sociopathic (like everything red pill according to feminists lol) Old man crew? Any critiques?

“Con: You’d have to be on top of your game, stay sharp and keep gaming, have options yourself on the side aka passive or active dread.”

Right, so if you don’t put legal marriage onto the table and don’t promise monogamy, you’re more likely to stay charismatic an social and awesome and maintain your social circles that have girls in them and have options for if she DOES stray, and all these things help maintain passive dread and/or keep your value up naturally by default, with no real risk to you.

“You might realize that you cannot live with anotherdude sticking his P in your partners V, which, as evidence suggest, is experienced much different by different men and not something we can realistically predict for a majority, yes/no?”

Right. This is up to every individual guy and even then it’s up to every individual transgression. Maybe she goes on a date and kisses some other guy and that doesn’t bother Joe but Bob is disgusted by her…maybe she fucks a couple Tinder guys because she’s lonely and in a vulnerable place and they said the right things but they just made her miss you and the life she had with you, and Billy is like fuck THAT shit while John is like “well, I never want to speak of this shit again and you have to take a dozen showers, but at least you learned your lesson that other guys suck and we’re back in the NRE stage again” and takes her back.

In the event that the guy won’t take her back:

1) know himself by then well enough to know if he can’t handle it and just do the rest of the strategy instead but leave this part out of it and stick to the usual ways of handling orbiters and keeping her knocked up past the wall

2) it’s ultimately his own baggage and for the sake of the kids he should try to work past it (ideally a life of doing pickup and dealing with fuckbuddies that have fuckbois and shit makes him less freaked out by the thought of a girl hooking up with another guy while they’re on a break), especially since she’s probably learned her lesson…like giving someone a small controlled dose of a disease so they’re immune to the worse version of it later

3) he could use guilt etc like “look I just need some time to figure this out…but I won’t be seeing anyone (whether that’s true or not lol) and I get that you’ll want to date but if you slept with someone I just don’t know if I could ever get past that” etc to at least plant the idea in her head so that she either feels too guilty to fully sleep with someone else or does and just pretends she didn’t which might be good enough for the guy lol

4) if he thought he could handle it and then finds out he just absolutely cannot get past it once it happens, or she somehow lands the perfect guy (which even then, give it a few months and he’ll probably end up choding himself out as soon as the NRE wears off and she’ll probably come back, just like LSNFTEs often do), he should be prepared for a custody battle. And in preparing for it he should be collecting evidence from day 1 of her being pregnant that he’s the better parent. It’s a little sneaky but when a woman has to win a custody battle she’ll be pressured by her lawyer friends family etc to make you look like the worse parent to get the kids, and often guys don’t realize that stuff like not going to PTA meetings and knowing the kid’s doctor appointment schedules etc will tank them in a custody battle. So we’d want a list of things that guy should be doing from day 1 for the worst-case scenario of a custody battle because the kid will be infinitely better with him AND it gives more incentive for her to come back and try to smooth things over etc

Any flaws here? Pros/cons in the logic anyone? Other bases/scenarios to cover? This one is the trickiest because scenario 4 is where the kid will actually suffer. But in scenarios 1 2 and 3, there should be no harm to the kid.

on September 10th, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Original Link

“I also know that a vast majority of men love harder, deeper and longer ( on average ) than most women do. Yes, I said ” love “. real men do ” love “. Whether or not that is a positive thing is debatable, but the fact of it is not.”

Absolutely. Like Rollo’s written, men are the true romantics. Women by default love conditionally (again as Rollo has writtena bout)…and in 2016 all of society is devaluing what marriage means compared to what it meant to you (and may still mean in the UMC circles).

We need new options for guys because they’re entering a situation where THEY love unconditionally, while women love conditionially, except all of the risk is on the men that they’ll never fail those conditions while all of society encourages her to not care about her end of the bargain.

It’s just not looking like a wise deal anymore. The love and change of rules (from dating to “cut the bullshit out”) that marriage used to come with doesn’t come anymore, at least on the 2016 woman’s side. It’s become so devalued now…it’s just another checkmark box to tick off as she tries to have it all and is focused more on the wedding party cake design than paying attention to the man she’s swearing vows to (vow that don’t mean anything to her anymore except they sound really cool and romantic in the video she posted on Facebook that got 50 Likes).

“So if you see me type ” YaReally, you go fuck yourself!!!”, I mean for a short time. I don’t want him to go fuck himself forever. That shit would be tragic.”


jk you don’t have to eat shit. ❀

Still sick but going to go try to nap it off so I don't have to think about all the fun people are having out at the bars tonight lol would like to see some feedback on the strategy ideas Trent Lane and I are talking about, even from the crotchety old men (lol).

I think there are solutions to this situation, it's not an impossible one at all. We have the combined intellect and experience and understanding of attraction (long-term and short-term) to come up with at least a framework for the 90% of men who aren't boring into SJF's clique.

'cause no one wants a broken society and we all want to see kids raised in loving 2-parent households and men being able to see and raise their kids etc

on September 11th, 2016 at 2:21 pm
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