via Rational Male
Carrying this one forward because it’s relevant to today’s article.
“Do you guys want to have children too?”
“What has happened with society?””
lol and these are guys SIGNING UP to learn how to get laid, they’re not even MGTOW or grasseaters or AFCs who won’t bang more than a couple girls in their life…these guys are actively trying to GET girls but the white picket fence 2.5 kids with a loving doting wife is probably not a reality them or most of their friends/peers have or grew up with. The drapes are on fire and no one will care until the entire house is ablaze because “hey man, I’M doing fine, and so is my buddy, so you’re just being negative” lol Just call me Nostradamus when we’re all toasting marshmallows.
IAS linked this:
“The tl:dr is this guy inadvertently implement that “split when kid is young” hypothetical YaReally wondered about. It seemed to work even though the guy didn’t plan for it. He banged 4 women, his wife apparently got together with a super BP guy, and now wants to resume the marriage.”
Thanks for the link. It’s funny because if people could forget about the whole marriage debate thing and just look at a story like this from a red pill pickup/attraction lens, they would go “ya, that makes complete sense, of course she wants him back” because it follows all sorts of field-tested attraction principles we all accept.
But when I say “okay, why don’t we do this as an actual purposeful strategy and teach guys how to do it WELL instead of just winging it and risking fucking delicate elements up”, suddenly it’s all “SHE’LL MARRY SOME OTHER GUY AND YOU’LL END UP WITH 12 BABY MAMAS IN THE GHETTO AND IN FAMILY COURT THE SECOND YOU WALK OUT THE DOOR EVEN IF SHE’S STILL IN THE NEW RELATIONSHIP ENERGY STAGE LIKE YAREALLY SAID WAS PART OF THE PLAN (AKA HER HIGHEST ATTRACTION POINT VS AFTER SHE’S GONE WAR BRIDES 180 ON YOU AND HATES YOU) DON’T EVER PUSH HER AWAY BECAUSE PUSH/PULL DON’T REAL EXCEPT FOR SINGLE GUYS AT THE BAR”
In time when people calm down and objectively look at what I’ve been saying, they’ll realize that all I’m doing is putting forth logic based in what’s field tested and accepted.
It’s just scary to people raised under traditional FI-conditioning because my suggestion is so outside the box for them and requires fully embracing the red pill.
It’s like covering up the cockpit windows on a plane and trusting all those instruments on the dashboard to help you fly and land the plane…you can see how much people REALLY believe those instruments work, and how many think they only work when you’re below a certain altitude or on the ground or are just LARP’ing that they believe the instruments because they like hanging out in the airport lounge talking about planes with pilots…
But put them in the cockpit and cover up the windows like I’m doing with my discussion and see how many guys actually trust the instruments we’re field testing and how many instantly flip their shit, jump up and rip the covers off the windows and shout “ARE YOU CRAZY?!??”
The instruments we’ve field tested indicate that what I’m suggesting isn’t that crazy, and might even be optimal…if we could get into the details of it and really iron out the potential problems instead of trying to explain why it would theoretically be possible to fly that plane just relying on the instruments.
Today’s Rollo article is a perfect example of this lol
The title is LITERALLY “Please, break up with me!” and the advice to a guy is that as soon as his girl is starting to lose attraction for him, to the point where she’s out making out at the bar, even SHE wants him to break up with her because she’s testing HIM for if he’s a beta chode who’s going to stay with her or if he’s a guy who can walk out on her and leave her experiencing life without him, after he proves himself alpha by walking out on her.
He literally writes: “When women ‘cheat’, even when it’s non-sexually, their subconscious is testing the man it suspects is Beta which she’s paired with for confirmation of him being Beta. This is potentially risky, of course, but such is the prime directive of Hypergamy that if it is subconsciously suspected that a paired-with man is less that Hypergamously optimal the long term benefits of confirmation outweigh any risks. Thus, a confession of infidelity from a woman should universally be interpreted as a Hypergamous shit test from men.”
And we’ll all nod our heads in agreement and point out that he would probably attract her if he had the balls to break up with her because that would be an alpha DHV, showing he has a backbone. We all know that if he dumped her and Go Fucks Ten Other Women getting his subcomms up and lack of neediness for her etc etc, she would probably end up coming back to him down the road.
We’ll post stuff like “Women want to be satisfied, yet be unsatisfied with a man. Drama. Come together, only to be drawn apart, come together again, drawn apart.” and “It’s the drama imperative. She needs up and down, back and forth. It’s the 50 shades of Gray drama. Women want and need a man they are in danger of losing. That is the Christian Grey female narrative, not just simple domination, but fucking her good with the hint of not being available. Christian Grey was just out of reach of Anastasia’s grasp.”
Hell, even a newbie gets it, @Recovering from onitis NAILS it here:
“I call my theory the “looking for the best deal” theory. The way I see it, women are looking for the best deal at all times. (So are men, btw, but that’s another post). So this guy is in a LTR and he thinks everything is fine. But he doesn’t realize that the little hamster in her mind is relentlessly asking “is this the best deal I can get?” She goes out with the girls to test the waters to see if a better guy is interested in her. The answer is “maybe” – the guy she hooked up with seems a better deal. Maybe he’s more physically fit, wealthier, etc… Now she comes back to Mr. Blue Pill and there is a problem – she’s in a relationship with him but wants to see if Mr. Bar is better. She doesn’t so much “shit test” Mr. Blue Pill as tries to blow up the relationship just enough to give her maneuvering room to see Mr. Bar (while keeping Mr. Blue Pill around just in case). So she tells Mr. Blue Pill (part of) what happened – enough to try to get a break but withholds enough so that there’s plausible deniability if she wants to get back together. He doesn’t get angry and wants to keep her. He just signaled to her that “you’re the best deal I can get and I desperately don’t want to lose you.” That confirms her suspicion that she could do better. Now he’s sunk. She will eventually find a way to rationalize her way out of the relationship. It might take 6 months but she’s gone and in her mind it will be his fault. He was too controlling . . . or too clingy . . . or didn’t help with housework . . . or something. But if she thought he was the best she could do, none of that would matter. It’s only when she thinks she can do better that any of this is a problem.”
Well done. This is Hypergamy. She WISHES he would pass the shit-test and “just get it” and just dump her so that her hindbrain can know he’s alpha and chase him but he fails the shit-test. We all know Hypergamy is switched on 24/7 at all times, and she’s always looking for the best deal and that if he had dumped this chick for cheating instead of staying with her, he’d probably have triggered gina tingles. And as SJF says women WANT some drama, and we’re all using push/pull infield etc etc
And guys like walawala can say “of course my response was: “I’m done”” and we’ll all cheer, because we know that girl he’s describing is LSNFTE’ing him just like Blackdragon laid out and fully explained and we all know this girl will date a few chodes, probably fuck a couple, realize they’re lame compared to walawala, and come begging to be with him again.
But when I say “ok then taking all of this agreed upon shit and taking what we all know about attraction and female psychology, what if toward the end of the NRE stage (when you still have attraction from her but she’s spending just a liiiiittle too much time on the internet getting validation to reaffirm that she’s still attractive after having your guys’ first kid since he’s off to preschool now and she has all day to be bored and she’s maybe starting to wonder if you’re the best she can get because she has these orbiters coming at her), you purposely accuse her of cheating on you and walk out on her (easy to do since you didn’t get legally married, right?), leaving her to experience life without an alpha guy who would walk out on her for even THINKING of straying after you have a kid together and everything, demonstrating EXACTLY what Rollo’s talking about here (her looking for validation elsewhere is her testing you to see if you’re alpha or will “forgive” her and prove to her that you’re beta, reinforcing the spiral of her losing attraction for you until she hits War Bride 180 territory where you can’t recover)…
…and then after she’s spend a few miserable months without you when she’s gone on a couple dates with guys who don’t compare to the guy who walked out on her for poking the bear and she’s been “single” again with her friends which is her friends getting wasted and bringing her drama and ditching her at the bar to go fuck some guy etc, you tell her you care about your kid too much and are willing to talk things through but she’s on thin ice etc etc and she, getting another chance at this alpha guy who didn’t put up with her girls’ nights out or her getting too chatty with her co-worker orbiters on Facebook, while also simultaneously implanting the idea that “if I have more babies with him, I won’t lose him” so you can have rawdog makeup sex and start trying for kid number 2, stalling for time as she gets closer to the wall and giving her a second kid to take up her free time with so she’s not sitting around with as much time to engage more orbiters.
So that now you have a situation where she’s experienced life without you, learned that other guys pale in comparison to you, you’re alpha badass enough to walk in 5 min if she tries to make girls nights out a thing suddenly (THE EXACT THING ROLLO IS EXPLAINING IN THIS ARTICLE THAT HE AND WE AND EVERYONE ON THE TRP FORUMS ETC ALL AGREE ON), and you’ve got 2 kids and she’s a housewife approaching the wall with diapers to change till she passes the wall and her SMV starts dropping while you stay awesome and attractive and high-value and grow MORESO over time, she’s happy you walked out on her when she started losing attraction, and is even happier that you gave her another chance after she experienced what being single was like again and how shitty it was.”
…no, if I suggest THAT, then I’m just a fucking asshole who doesn’t understand anything about anything. lol
Everyone here acts like they trust those instruments on the plane and likes to LARP red pill theory…but cover up the cockpit windows and see who loses their shit and throws out 5 years of Rollo’s writing including this article he’s just written.
“didn’t score, but put two new bartender girls at two of my spots in the emotional bubble from asking what they will wear for Halloween. Shit is like crack. It spiked their attraction AND established an odd comfort between us. Did the same thing to a few new waitresses, and did the same thing to a few new cashiers this weekend. Next time I see these girls, I’m certain it will be as if we’ve established social circle acceptance with each other. Should be a more interesting 2nd meeting with these girls. Opening with this is super easy, no approach anxiety.”
lol ask me how I know it’s a solid routine. 😉 props on giving it a try.
“chicks GET BORED. monogamy is BORING. Even Chad Thundercock becomes Chad Loafalot under these conditions. ”
This lol This is why I say “past the NRE” stage when I talk about the marriage subject. In NRE, sure, Chad Thundercock is the king…He’s new and exciting, there’s so much she doesn’t know about him yet, so many new experiences to have with him.
But when the NRE wears off, Chad Thundercock starts losing all the exciting mystery and adventure he used to have to her, she knows everything about him and his life, and he may start to let himself get complacent because hey, he’s won the game, he’s got himself a little wifey with a ring on her finger and the FI told him he’d be fine so why should he have to be exciting 24/7? He can just plop down on the couch with a beer and watch the game.
But those alpha guys at the office flirting with her sure do seem exciting in comparison…this one who keeps teasing her is SUCH a jerk though. But she’s so frustrated with herself for smiling when he noticed that she’s, weirdly enough for NO REASON AT ALL (wink wink) started dressing a little hotter when she leaves Chad the complete Known on the couch and goes off to work around a bunch of Unknowns…and oh look, that rich 6-pack guy with the profile pic of him on the yatch is messaging her on her instagram again…he was probably off sailing and having an adventurous Tuesday morning, not like Chad who she saw sitting on the couch scratching his balls.
“How long has your longest LTR been?”
Oops, careful Scray, Sentient is onto you. Hoping he tells us how long his longest mono LTR with a <25yo 8+/10 in the past few years who he made give up her social media for him has been. Don't you get it brah, he's still exciting to his post-wall wife who hasn't grown up with an Instagram account, it's exactly the same for guys now. lol
But despite "As Rollo often says: “familiarity, comfort and rapport are anti-seductive elements in a man’s Game.”", we still have to explain how monogamy can possibly get boring to guys who are just too badass for life with them to EVER be boring.
"However it’s insane for women to do such heavy betafication at such critical moments in a relationship like after having a baby."
It's the most logical thing in the world to do if you understand that the point of a shit-test isn't to hope the guy fails, it's to hope the guy PASSES and demonstrates that she's attracted to an alpha. When would she need reassurance that she's with an alpha MORE than right after she's had a baby and needs to KNOW that she's got the best guy she can get that will be able to take on the world, which his passing her attempts to beta him would show her?
A girl is RELIEVED when you pass her shit-tests. Because that means she's got an alpha. That's why she'll keep shit-testing through the relationship at various points, because it gives her hindbrain security that she landed a high-value alpha when you pass those tests. If she has a baby and can turn you into a beta chode, then it's in her and the baby's best interest (to her hindbrain at least) for her to GTFO and find a better guy 'cause that guy isn't going to take care of them (in caveman times and all that).
"was mate guarding his lady hardcore and swoop amogging the fuck out of me this weekend — super strong PDA that had her actually pushing him back and sort of embarassed (lol hilarious shit btw)"
oooo, a perfect segue to today's Madison video demonstrating exactly what happens when you get too outcome dependent infield. A guy takes his girl but then becomes too "needing it to work" and loses her while Madison befriends her friends:
I could write 50 pages about all the little dynamics that happen in this infield. For the guys sarging, watch these infield clips a few times as they pop up, specifically focus on Madison and what he's doing/saying and to who, then focus on the friends and what they're all saying/doing, and then focus on the AMOG guy and the girl and what they're doing/saying and their body language etc
Notice how Madison doesn't even engage the guy, the other guy blows himself out because he takes himself too serious to befriend her friends and starts to mate-guard her too hard (getting outcome dependent) while Madison lays back and engages the friends and has fun and DHV's in front of her (by befriending her friends and occasionally teasing her etc) and then takes initiative to try to get into the cab at the end while the other guy walked off with a number at best.
This isn't even a great example of amazing attraction or anything, but put me in a cab with 2 girls at the end of the night where I have the approval of both of them and their peer group and I'll probably be able to game my way into fucking the girl from there because I've already DHV'ed a bunch and now I have isolation and I'm a guy her friends approved of lol
"Now, if that is because MGTOW is perceived as being anti PUA, then I can understand THAT. But not all MGTOW are like that"
Personally as I've mentioned a bunch of times, I don't even hate MGTOW even though I know they hate PUAs lol They just don't fully understand PUA, just like any other camp that hates us, and they're just reacting logically to the changing environment. They don't have the tools/interest for really understanding attraction so they're just taking the most logical path by bailing entirely on the whole thing. I can't fault them for being rational.
But as I've said before: the ones who are still dating, but just "on MY terms" should really look past the PUA hate in the MGTOW community ("pussy-beggars" etc) and learn some PUA shit, 'cause they're still choosing to handling a firearm despite not wanting to own one but they haven't taken the safety class. Learning some PUA stuff to fully understand attraction and holding frame and shit-tests and most importantly avoiding Buyer's Remorse (aka False Rape Accusations) etc would make them much better equipped to 1) be banging hotter girls when they DO decide to fuck around, and 2) avoid a lot of dangers/risks of girls getting Buyer's Remorse and laying hell on their personal lives/careers/names/etc
Actually that's maybe a thing I should write up sometime when I have free time…a MGTOW guide for just the bare minimum stuff they should be aware of with regards to how to spin plates and avoid Buyer's Remorse/dangers, none of the pussy-beggy stuff they hate but just the cold hard like "I know you want to just stop returning her calls, but wean her off slowly with a routine like this instead or she'll come at you with a vengeance because she feels used and that's dangerous in 2016" etc etc
I don't care if they go full monk mode, but if they're gonna still play with the gun it would be nice to be able to teach them some basic safety so they can at least be as safe as possible as they go their own way. I WORRY ABOUT YA, MGTOW BROS!! lol
Reposting my Halloween rant cause I’ll be too busy sarging to post this weekend and it’s still early enough to make sure you have tickets etc to a venue (and even if you don’t, go sarge the streets, lineups, and any venues NEAR the ticket venue because there WILL be spill-over into all the shitty dead venues around the prime ones as girls who don’t want to wait in line or who forgot to buy tickets or get bored of the first venue (’cause they didn’t meet you in it and decided they’d have better luck at another venue) etc they’ll all be in all the other venues around) and there is very likely a venue already throwing a Halloween party Thursday night so you can all get started.
“@all @Culum @Hank @Forge @Sun @etc
Halloween is coming up, literally THE sluttiest time of the year with not just NO consequence for girls to be slutty but MASSIVE SOCIAL PRESSURE to BE slutty, and you can open EVERY chick with the EASIEST opener in the WORLD built into the holiday: “Hey, I like your costume” (or in my case “lol wtf are YOU supposed to be?” lol)
This year Halloween falls on a Monday so the hotties will be costumed up Fri, Sat, Sun, and Mon. That’s 4 nights in a row of slutty costumes and girls letting their sexual sides out consequence-free.
Literally EVERY guy here, I don’t care who you are or what your situation is (even the married OMGs, ’cause if you expect your advice to carry weight to the Young Single Guys then you should be infield at LEAST during the easiest weekend of the entire year directly applying red pill shit on <25yo 8+/10s), should be in a nightclub and saying at LEAST that opener (ideally have a routine stack where you guess her costume and have her turn around for you to check her out and think about how you're going to get up in her space and laser…have routines planned for when she asks you about your costume or lack of costume, not just one-liners but actual stacks that turn her asking that into you escalating sexually etc) to the top 20 hottest girls they see each night, regardless of whether those girls are with guys dressed in their "show off my abs" 300 Gladiator costumes or not, for at LEAST one of those 4 nights, but ideally all 4 nights in a row.
Not even to actually GET those girls (OMGs don't have to cheat on their wives lol), but just to see some of this "crazy shit" I talk about in action. Hell, just go approach the hottest girls in the bar and ask them about their orbiters/social media to prove me wrong about how none of them ever get offers from rich dudes and none of them have more than 100 orbiters etc, show me how wrong I am by getting out infield and bringing back data to support your argument, you don't even have to fuck them or anything, just get out there and FIELD TEST this shit instead on the easiest day of the year to engage 9s and 10s and charm them enough to let you scroll through their Tinder messages "to see what young guys are like these days", get into a big discussion about social dynamics even, whatever, just get out there to prove me wrong and show me what a big dummy I am with legitimate field data lol
More importantly than the OMGs though: this all goes quadruple for the Young Single Guys sarging (not the checking their instagram account shit, YOU are actually trying to engage and trigger attraction in them lol) because this is their annual chance to push their comfort zone and gain reference experiences under EXTREMELY IDEAL circumstances with odds stacked MASSIVELY in favor of those 9s and 10s that might normally have bitch-shields up, being receptive as fuck to engaging with strangers since they're in full attention-whoring mode. Even if you're ugly or old just say "my costume is a creepy old man who hangs out in bars hitting on 21 year olds, under this I'm actually a 21yo 6"4" jock with a 6-pack" lol
Just like you should normally be flirting with hot bartenders and waitresses because they're PAID to be receptive to you and that builds reference experiences in your head of "I AM attractive to hot girls, that bartender loved me she stayed and kept asking questions way longer than she had to and we lasered!!", and you should always engage birthday/engagement parties because they're going to be receptive to you and that builds "I can handle groups of girls, girls love me! Also I'm learning group theory and seeing all these things Mystery and YaReally talk about!", this is like EVERY SMOKESHOW HOTTEST GIRL IN THE ENTIRE CITY being an easy reference experience for you to collect.
You can still take home the slutty nurse 6 that's been giving you the eye all night or whatever at the end of the night, I won't judge ya, but EVERY DUDE ON THIS SITE should be out at least one of those 4 nights (ideally all of them) engaging with THE hottest girls they see all night long.
If it's November 1st and all you've opened over the last 4 days are at BEST 6s and 7s and you SAW hotter than that (and we KNOW you did…except maybe Hank lol), then Real Talk: you need to do some serious thinking about how bad you actually want this part of your life handled and how bad you ACTUALLY want LEGITIMATELY HOT 8+/10 girls in your life instead of just average girls.
And for extra challenge, social pressure, and shit-tests: try doing this all without wearing a costume yourself…and mack the costumed chicks instead of the ones that aren't costumed up which is what your brain will try to do to avoid the social pressure of not being dressed up ("this girl isn't dressed up so WHEW we have a commonality and I don't have to fear the social pressure of risking her thinking I'm lame for not dressing up").
I expect to see a fuckload of "I approached actual 9s and 10s holy shit!!" FRs around here from Halloween weekend lol I don't care if you even fuck them or not, just get into interactions with them. APPLY all this shit you've been reading about. Go UP against the 300 Gladiator AMOGs for the 10s and actually USE what you've been learning all year (DHV, tease, step to the side so she's not facing him, push, pull, merge the set, use another girl to make her jealous, etc etc). If other guys mack her, engage her group and DHV in front of her and win group approval and push for an afterparty etc
You HAVE the knowledge, you've been reading it all year, or for multiple years, and Halloween is THE easiest environment to apply it (every city becomes an overall Vegas mindset for the weekend). Every guy here HAS the knowledge to PULL AND FUCK <25yo 8+/10s who have thousands of orbiters and celebs and rich dudes and shit chasing them. Drag your ass out for at LEAST one of those nights, but ideally man up and do all 4 nights and try to push every set to an actual pull ("What are you doing later?", see Julien's free clips on YouTube about asking determining her logistics)
Choose nightclubs over house parties because house parties have limited options and a bunch of orbiter/AMOG dynamics to deal with, and choose nightclubs over bars because they'll have more room and people are standing/walking around and you want quantity so that you can rack up as much experience engaging smokeshow hotties as possible (VS a pub down the street that might have one solid 9 if you're lucky and she'll be there in a big group sitting down at a booth table in a corner).
And on Halloween it's totally fine to be out solo, no one gives a shit, they just assume your friends are drunk somewhere else (say your buddy went home with a slutty nurse) so don't let not having friends or some group costume shit be an excuse to not go out.
This is that "push your comfort zone" shit I talk about. You can go out every night for a year straight and not make any real progress if you aren't actually pushing your comfort zone out there…but spend ONE weekend getting up in the space of 9s and 10s and actually interacting with them on the night they're most receptive, and you'll do a fuckload of wonder for your internals and sense of entitlement. Don't become another Manosphere chode that spends 10 years banging average girls and becomes bitter about the game when he's really just secretly resenting himself for not stepping up to the smokeshows."
Click my name to check my archive for "halloween" for some routines and advice and shit, I give the same advice every year lol
I wanna see some FRs this year that involve the phrase "the hottest girl in the entire fucking bar holy shit" lol even if it's followed by "slapped me because I fucked up, but at least I opened her!"
lol waiting for the OMGs to start being those unreactive badass alphas we’re supposed to look up to and model and want to be like, who live and breathe the red pill of oak tree stoicisim and unreactiveness that looks like this:
instead of like a bunch of catty teenage girls lol Scray and I are young and have “five or ten times” less life experience…so ok sure, we’re immature. Now what’s YOUR guys’ excuse?
Any of you OMGs heading out tonight to gather field data on social media with some <25yo 8+/10s? Or are you guys busy coming up with new short jokes and digging through scray's history to try to shame him for sharing his feelings on his personal journey of self-development, like a group of SJWs relying on shaming and character assassination instead of logical debate, facts and up-to-date field data?
Blaximus threatens to dox me, Sentient tries to get Mersonia (and anyone who dares to disagree with the OMG clique, I think he went after Anonymous Reader for info in the last thread) to give some personal info so he can dig through it for things to shame and discredit him with. Everyone piling the roid rage, short jokes, height complexes, "lol u faggot u didn't get laid when u were 4yo like us so u can't even IMAGINE wut REAL red pill is like bro", "why u so angry" insults…exact same shit you'll see in a Jezebel comment section when someone red pill posts there. No logical discussion, no counter-points, just right to the attacks…followed inevitably by crying victim when anyone flings shit back at them.
You guys think you're demonstrating inspiring mindsets and behavior in this thread that ANYONE would want to model? lol
Scray isn't angry or roid-raging over there, just like I'm not being negative. You guys just don't like watching the surgery channel and are trying to paint the surgeons as "evil" because character assassination is a lot easier than accepting things that challenge your FI-conditioned beliefs lol
Scray's been dropping some ice cold truths and none of you has brought any kind of discussion/debate to the table. Just insulted him and condescendingly spouted pseudo-philosophical fluff that boils down to FI-conditioning when put under a microscope.
A post-menopausal woman is irrelevant to the SMP, sorry. That's just objective reality.. We're sure your wives are nice people and it's great that you still find them attractive and that some thirsty dudes will still hit on them, but unless we're trying to get men to settle with post-menopausal women, they're irrelevant to the SMP.
Keeping your 70yo wife attracted to you simply doesn't come with the same obstacles modern men trying to keep a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 attracted face. This is just objective reality. Again we're happy for you and your wives that you find them attractive still, that's awesome, but no one over at the RVF is posting your wives' pics in the "post your idea of a 10" threads…they OBJECTIVELY have low SMV, and lower SMV than you super badasses as they age, and it's simple logic that a a man keeping a low SMV woman is a different situation than a man keeping a high SMV woman.
Promising monogamy, whether you want to label it beta or not, hampers a lot of things that are fully field-tested and even Rollo has written about that help build/keep attraction…that doesn't mean you can't overcome it, but it's OBJECTIVELY making things more difficult (for no benefit anyone has named except FI-conditioned benefits like "love" and "completeness") and men should be made aware of that. That's not "negative", that's informing men of reality.
You guys haven't brought anything logical to the table to rebut what he's saying (and what he's saying is shit that most of the Manosphere would agree with). You guys are just throwing feels and trying to shame and attack people for examining your beliefs and showing that a lot of them are FI-conditioned or just not up-to-date/relevant in 2016.
Fuck I love Halloween lol For the guys sarging this weekend/monday/in general: do whatever you have to (wink wink) to get the infield vids from Julien’s TenGame product. The product itself is all internal game/mindsets (PIMP is all external and still the best resource for actual external tactics) but you can skip all that, just check out the infield. There’s like 10 vids with in-depth breakdowns that are fucking FANTASTIC (plus he’s always sober, not even a drink in his hand, dressed casual/bad, and often solo when he approaches (good inspiration for the guys who don’t have wings to rely on)).
The SHIFT infields are good too and show full interactions from meet to pull/close which is great for guys to see the overall flow of a full pickup, but the TenGame ones are more in your face practical snippet demonstrations of a lot of key/advanced things in pickup. They really nail and demonstrate lot of stuff about subcomms that I’ve been harping on (how saying/doing things goes over more based on your internals than what you’re actually saying/doing). Like there’s a lot of good demonstrations/breakdowns of the difference between giving/taking value, self-amusing, outcome dependence/seeking reactions (there’s a compilation of Tyler VS Julien battles where they demonstrate the 0.00001% thing I keep bringing up), along with lots of rejections/internal-failures etc as well as practical execution stuff like watching Julien build hubs of girls out of nothing quickly (something you could be doing every night out if you want, and something I did last night and will be focusing on again tonight lol)
You can see chunks of the infield here (the giving VS taking value clips are worth a watch but the full context of the full vids is way more useful):
Do what you need to to grab the full infield from the product, the full videos are like 30+ min long each and you should be able to throw them on during the day and pick up a bunch of good shit for tonight/sun/mon.
At the very least give these two quick previews a watch right now and try what he’s explaining in the first video here tonight (the important part is seeing how “unclever” your open needs to be when you use merging, the social dynamics of what’s happening during a merge do most of the work for you…the full product vids have more examples of him doing this hub thing and explaining what he’s doing etc):
Try what he’s explaining above ESPECIALLY if you feel “low value” (ugly/fat/balding/whatever, old in a young chaotic venue, not in a costume (also purposely go out NOT in a costume and do this stuff with costumed chicks so you can see how little it matters and understand how that translates to other value system competition like looks/money), alone with no wings/friends, etc). Use this holiday where you can easily convince yourself that all the girls will be super receptive (hint: keep that belief after Halloween) to shatter your limiting beliefs.
Try the hub thing he’s demonstrating ESPECIALLY if you’re “an introvert” or feel old like “oh only a young guy could do that” and in young venues, like where you think “that would never work for ME”. TRY it, no one will remember you if you fuck it up, it’s Halloween and everyone is in a Vegas party mindset (VS the locals on a Thursday night at a regular venue who worry about their reputation or recognize you from last week etc).
When you get a hub going, pay attention to what the girls AROUND the hub do, you’ll find they start standing near/around you and/or will flat out open you and demand your attention/number/etc (numbers will be wood cause it’s 2016, escalate for the Same Night Lay lol), even if you’re just a normal dude, purely because of the preselection you build (the more normal/not traditionally attractive you look the MORE your value is raised by this because you SHOULDN’T be able to do it, going by society’s stereotypes, again this is why I say try it without a costume on and don’t just stick to talking to people without costumes (comfort zone, “I feel normal around these people, whew no social pressure here”) purposely engage costumed chicks).
If you haven’t done this creating hubs thing before you should be trying it this weekend when it’s so easy to open and introduce people in costumes to eachother because you can introduce them as their characters (introduce Harley Quinn to Catwoman and set up a roleplay/future projection about crimes, which leads to bringing in the cop girl and innuendo with all of them about using her handcuffs etc etc there’s so many easy ways to open this weekend lol)
Try the merging/hub stuff out especially if you’re solo and in nightclubs with strangers. Really understand just how fast you can build/demonstrate your value using preselection/social proof and just the bare minimum of actual skills/energy. The girls feed off eachother (since girls ping of their environment to determine who’s high value) and build your value FOR you and they’re subconsciously hardwired to notice the center of attention guy that’s doing this shit lol
And on insecurities about other guys/costumes: the guy in the coolest costume WILL get a ton of attention but watch for how he actually DOES. Does he actually leave with the girl, or do they open him and take pics with him, maybe give a number (that’ll flake because 2016 and he has no actual rapport/comfort/etc with her) and flirt for a bit then leave? Don’t let the illusions/social conditioning blind you to what’s actually happening around you infield because a lot of guys insecurities are based on just not really looking at what’s happening and trusting FI/media conditioned stereotypes of what “happens”.
And remember: if you befriend the guys in the coolest costumes and you will have the same value as them, just like any other night. Befriend the manager and to the girls in the room you now have the same value as the manager. Hang with lawyers/doctors/etc and girls will just assume you’re one too. How do you befriend the guys? Throw girls at them as you build your hub just like Julien is doing with his wings in that clip, ask girls about their costume, if they have no costume on have girls guess what their costume is etc. How guys react to you (“leader of men” etc) helps girls determine your value so again it all just feeds into itself.
I know getting laid is the big goal on Halloween, but try prioritizing this other stuff (you’ve got 2-4+ hours in the venue, you’ll have plenty of time to get laid lol try starting the night out with this) because blowing your beliefs apart and learning how to do this stuff on an easy weekend like this will give you tools that will help you more on normal weekends than just getting into a nice little traditional one on one interaction this weekend will do for you. Every guy should understand that he has the ability to take over the venue whenever he wants to so that he really sees the full range of what he could be doing out there on normal weekends.
Really push yourself this weekend. Next weekend everything will go back to normal and girls will throw their bitch-shields back up and guys will view you as competition again lol, but this is the easiest time of year to make massive strides and blow a shitload of limiting beliefs out of the water that 90% of the guys who are doing sit-ups while I type this so they can wear their shirtless gladiator costume (falling into the frame of competing to have the best costume which is giving “having a good costume” value (hint: you will never have the best costume just like you’ll never be the most jacked or the richest) instead of disregarding that value system entirely and creating your OWN value system infield (remember girls ping off you for what value is, so what you feel she feels) where whatever YOU have is the “best”).
Push your comfort zones this weekend.
“In all honesty I think correcting women has to begin at home. It needs to come from Red Pill fathers raising daughters from a Red Pill aware perspective.”
This is one of the reasons I keep bringing up alternative plans for achieving the 2-parent household keeping attraction long-term that might help this happen. Right now Red Pill fathers are entering a system stacked against them and making their ability to do this much harder than it probably needs to be. All of this is for nothing if we can’t keep men in their childrens’ lives consistently, and large groups of men won’t even reproduce when they can’t see any clear path to success (MGTOW, Grass Eaters, etc)…the only people that will be reproducing and staying in their children’s lives are the occasional Blaximus who manages to walk the tightrope and a shitload of Blue Pill chodes who stay with their wife despite the deadbedroom. That’s the future generation if we don’t come up with better solutions. This won’t right itself on its own and we have no other options to offer Red Pill men right now except a system with a massive and increasing failure rate.
Like how many guys in this comment section are actually allowed to be fully involved with our kids’ lives and are raising them Red Pill? Less than 10 of us? And how many of us are avoiding settling or having kids or WILL avoid settling or having kids as they get older, because the odds and stats and risks are just too shitty to get involved with that mess? The odds and stats are going to get worse not better (like you say, the girls in that video aren’t going to change their attitudes, and that attitude is becoming more and more prevalent across the board thanks to technology giving them inflated entitlement).
Even if every one of you beat society’s influence and their emotional urges and taught your daughters properly, this will still end up a losing game on a long enough timeline because we can’t all line up to pop out babies with your daughters.
If Red Pill men had better options with less risk, and were able to better trust that they’ll get to actually raise their kids in a stable 2-parent household (with an easier time pinging her Hypergamy), more Red Pill men would have kids they can teach to do this bottoms-up thing.
Until then we will continue exactly as we are, with the trends following their current paths, with more and more men turning to less risky distractions with higher odds of happiness. And we’ll all keep talking about how there’s this huge problem, but won’t actually find solutions for it.
Like SkankHunt123 (lol) says: “Good fathers were one element. But good luck getting people to sign up for that in a vacuum. You’re not going to draw men back to fatherhood with the deal as bad as it is. It’s gone too far for men to put up with it (divorce rape, getting fucked in custody, etc). And you’re fighting against the entire rest of society when you’re doing it.”
There’s no reason this trend will fix itself, just like the Mice Utopia didn’t fix itself.
@all @guys going out tonight @looks/muscles/gym related
Tyler on why his looks (beer guy, insane beard etc) don’t matter and how frame works:
There’s a lot of VERY FUCKING DEEP ADVANCED NUANCED SHIT in this video even though he disclaimers it as being nonsense.
Summary of some of the key points because they’re important enough that guys need to hear them:
– making a girl laugh (or feel an emotional impact in general) switches her from her logical brain to her emotional brain. That’s why lots of good looking guys going on dates where they’re boring as fuck get disqualified for not having the right watch or job or whatever, because those guys have no game and don’t know how to spike her emotions and the girl stays in a logical headspace where she’s evaluating you logically (just like on Tinder etc where yes, looks are important, because you can’t really disconnect her from logic in a profile she doesn’t read…note that the girls interviewed in videos like the above are in a logical headspace just like when a girl says she wants a Nice Guy, the guys that fail their qualifications are the guys who didn’t make enough emotional impact to not BE run through her qualification-gauntlet by her)
– to understand how this works, think of when you have a girl coming over and you 100% plan to use a condom no matter what, you KNOW it’s the smart logical thing to do and you know all the pros and cons. And then she climbs on top of you naked and is making you feel good emotions and teasing you and grinding against you as she makes out etc etc as she tries to slide it in. Pretty much every guy has fucked up and gone “…but it feels SO GOOD, okay I’ll just pull out at the end and it’ll be okay!!” and fucked them raw in that situation, and then towards the end there’s a nightmare battle to fight your hindbrain’s goals of reproduction to get yourself to actually pull out and not just finish in her (especially when she’s begging for you to)
At the START when you were in your logical mindset, you were NEVER going to do that shit…but once she switched you to your emotional brain you started making decisions you might not have made when you were logical (especially if you introduce booze to the situation too, which helps shut down your logical brain)
Just like the girl 100% legitimately BELIEVES she’s not going to go home with anyone tonight, just like she 100% legitimately BELIEVES she wouldn’t fuck a guy who’s short, or balding, or fat, or has a nasally voice, or has some shitty job, or sleeps on a mattress on the floor, or lives in a shitty apartment with 4 other guys, or wants to fuck in a bar bathroom, etc etc…but then meets a guy like Tyler Scray myself etc and ends up DOING that because the guy gives her emotional impact and switches her to her emotional brain and speaks directly to THAT instead of the logical debate back and forth guys get into where the girl’s emotional brain isn’t engaged and they start running the guy through the disqualification-gauntlet.
This is why I say the “No” girls thing is a limiting belief. If the guy gaming them were able to tap into their emotional brains, they would become “Yes” girls for him in that moment. So when I see a guy run a style of game that has no real emotional impact to it and then writes girls off as “No” girls and I see the girl still engaging him but he just isn’t giving her any real emotional impact it’s like, she’s not a No girl, a No girl would have walked away from you, you just aren’t gaming her properly and need to tighten your shit up.
Now as we know, with girls after they do something they hamster rationalize why they did it, so after she fucks you, ya she’ll go back into a logical headspace, just like you’ll think “oh god what have I done I should’ve used a condom I swear my dick feels itchy now when is her period omg omg”, but women’s hamster rationalization will look for any reason to justify why she did the thing she did…so she’ll rationalize to herself that you’re attractive because if she can’t do that then she’s just a slut who fucked some unattractive guy and her brain doesn’t want her to be THAT, so she’ll make up reasons to justify sleeping with you like “I just love his beard” “I LIKE that he’s not like those gym guys that care about their looks too much” etc and as long as you’re still charming/gaming her you’ll be helping her hamster see your attractive qualities (or make them up lol)
– The reason Tyler can have his retarded beard and purposely get fat for a year and be balding etc and still be cleaning up with young chicks and girls out of his league looks-wise, is because he doesn’t CARE, it’s all a joke to him, and joking around about it as he’s gaming them makes the girls switch to their emotional brain and they’ll stroke his beard or rub his belly “as a joke” but just like talking about sex lays the groundwork for the girl to feel mentally be more open to having sex, her acting as if that stuff is attractive/fun/funny/not-an-issue lays the groundwork for her actually VIEW those things that way
– Part of why this works infield is that when other better-looking richer younger whatever guys see you having fun and macking girls, they start to feel STUPID. Because they’re busting their ass to get a 6-pack or to make money or groom and dress perfectly spending money on expensive custom fitted suits etc and you’re there in a t-shirt with a beer gut having MORE FUN THAN THEY ARE lol
It’s like Tyler’s friend he talks about in this video, who’s a minimalist who just travels around living in his R/V doing pretty much nothing for work day to day because he lives so cheap…Tyler busts his ass to work 24/7 on his company and to earn the “right” to “feel good” and then he hangs with Tynan and just feels retarded wasting all that time because Tynan has none of that and is happy as fuck lol So Tynan’s ability to enjoy his life and have fun and be happy and LIKE HIMSELF makes guys who try harder than him FEEL like they’re “trying harder” especially when the goal is “who’s happier” (VS “who has more money”, like Tynan’s goal isn’t “get laid”, his goal is just “enjoy life and be happy”), and the goal for most men infield is “who’s getting laid?” so when they see a guy who’s doing better at that goal with less help, that makes them start second-guessing all the effort they’re putting into those things.
So those jacked rich dudes standing around hoping their passive value will attract girls start attributing Tyler’s success to stupid shit that they don’t have like “it’s the beard bro, it’s gotta be the beard”, they won’t pick something THEY have like “it’s the blue shirt bro” because then they should be as successful as Tyler, so they have to pick something they don’t have or can’t have, no matter how retarded it sounds (“oh women like older men bro” wasn’t a phrase I heard anyone in their 20s saying until I WAS an older man and doing better than them infield lol then suddenly I have all these “advantages”)
And women ping off their environment, so when those guys are looking at Tyler like “man I wish I was able to have as much fun as that ugly little guy is having”, the women are picking up on that, and it’s all just boosting his value…but it STARTS with Tyler not judging himself and focusing on self-amusing and not taking himself seriously and not caring what his looks rating is and having delusional confidence about how his beard gives him superpowers or how his chubby belly is sexy etc Which is why I stress the looks don’t matter stuff, because that internal shift in your head is what makes this feedback loop all happen.
– When you set up goals like “when I get a 6-pack I’ll be happy” “when I get X size arms I’ll be happy” “when I get X money I’ll be happy”, you just increase your goals…now the 6-pack isn’t enough, now you need to get jacked too. Once you earn X money you’ll probably move to a higher income area where comparing yourself to others you’ll still have less than them and you’ll probably have more expenses etc so you’re never going to reach “completion”. You have to accept that you can just BE HAPPY and have fun and like yourself and view yourself as attractive NOW as you ARE, literally as you’re reading this you can just FEEL like you deserve to go out and approach a smokin hot girl tonight, otherwise you’ll just get trapped in a loop of never feeling “good enough” (and then when you DO finally feel good enough and fuck up a few times you’ll ego-protect and avoid approaching them because now if you DON’T get them then you REALLY must suck lol)
That’s only like half the vid but I gotta go get ready for tonight lol
To anyone heading out: try highlighting a physical flaw of yours tonight (or just don’t hide one that you normally hide, or sabotage your looks a bit by dressing crappy or not doing your hair or whatever) and STILL BE PRO-ACTIVE infield (ask girls what their Halloween costume will be and bust on them for their answers and suggest sexual costumes etc). The hotter the girl you try it on the better.
I don’t know/care about the fight going on so I’m just going to rant about the rating scale in general lol this isn’t aimed at anyone specific, I just skimmed the jist of the posts and have time to type some shit up right now about rating systems in general:
“uhhh if dudes are giving the attention associated with a 7 to her, then she’s a 7. you don’t get to be like NAH BRO SHE’S REAAAAAALY A 6.
Nah, if the market is moving her way, then the market has spoken. Sorry.
Now maybe the 2016 market is FUCKED UP or YOU WISH it were different to better comport with your PERSONAL SHIT…but the market is the market.”
“And tbh, 2016 SMV dictates all. The field rules all. The chicks getting treated like 7s are 7s. Sorry. The market has spoken. These appeals to mount Olympus are gay.”
“There are a ton of guys in the manosphere who bitch and moan and say shit like “bro this 3 SLORE wasn’t responding to me! WTF! SOCIAL MEDIA INFLATES THESE CHICKS PAST THEIR ACTUAL WORTH RAAAWR!” Nope. This is the wrong attitude to have. That “3” is a “7” in 2016.
I don’t give a shit why or how it got to be that way, it is what it is.
And when you equate your own personal platonic made up ideals to reality, well….
You’re gonna have a bad time. You’re not going to use the right game. You’re not going to be able to follow the number one rule of the PUA: be cool.”
All of this. The PUA community has gone through a bunch of rating systems because a lot of stuff is subjective (from the 0-1 system to the “anything above an 8 is subjective” system to the “rate her on looks and personality separately” etc etc). And the whole point of the rating for us is just so it’s clear why we’re doing what in our Field Reports (ie – if I say I negged an “HB6 who thinks she’s an HB9”, then my neg was probably calibrated and the FR can be analyzed from the right perspective VS if I say I “negged an HB6” which will sound like I wasn’t calibrated or I “negged an HB9” which would make you think I was gaming an HB9 and put a bunch of traits/labels on her that weren’t there because she was actually just an average chick)
But infield it all basically boils down to these 3 things (but only the 3rd one matters for pickup):
1) what YOU rate her personally based on your tastes
2) what SOCIETY rates her based on overall trends in society (including the thirstiness of guys on social media)
and 3) what SHE rates herself which is BASED ON the feedback/treatment she gets from society and her default internals (which is what Scray is describing when he says “It is the sexual market. Girls ping off their environment, meaning that they are getting POSITIVE FEEDBACK from social media, etc. and whatever else. It’s not just them dreaming it up.”)
Those 3 ratings can be WILDLY different. Some BBW lover can view a fatty as a 10 while society views her as a 2 and she views herself as a 6. You can have a smokeshow hottie you view as a 10, society views as a 10, but she views herself as a 6. You can have a fatty that you view as a 2, society views as a 2, but because of all the feedback she’s getting on social media plus her own delusional internals because she’s an SJW fully steeped in that insane fat = beautiful culture, she can view herself as a 10.
Your personal rating of her is great for telling stories to your buddies and giving eachother props and shit, but it’s COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in terms of how you game her.
Society’s rating of her is great for telling stories and shit, but it’s COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in terms of how you game her EXCEPT that you should be aware of what kind of feedback she’s getting (or likely getting) from society because that will help tell you the only rating that ACTUALLY matters:
How SHE rates HERSELF.
THAT’S the only rating that matters infield and what you calibrate your game to. Everything else is either mental masturbation (either positively, like for bonding with eachother like hank’s original post was probably for, or negatively, like holding guys back (I can’t approach her, she’s out of my league)) or just helps you determine what THIS rating is likely to be (ie – a smokin hot girl you know probably gets lots of positive feedback and probably doesn’t view herself as a 4 BUT YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that she views herself as a 4 if that’s the behavior she exhibits once you interact with her…and an uggo probably gets negative feedback in society, except in 2016 a WHOLE BUNCH OF UGGOS are getting the same positive feedback a 10 gets, which is fucking everything up and making it so you have to treat an UGGO like an arrogant cocky 10 that needs to be negged etc because HER rating of herself is all that matters).
So in an environment where there are no actual hot girls, just a bunch of fatties, one of those fatties is going to be getting the social feedback and have better internals and view herself as the “hottest” fatty. You game her as if she’s a 10 (or, you know, go to a better environment why are you sarging a fat camp lol), and you game the other fatties as if they’re 4s or whatever, because those are how they view themselves.
“Like, dudes who believe that the “average” woman (OR WORSE) are the best they can do aren’t that uncommon — 80% of dudes.”
This. And this doesn’t even have to do with what they WANT or are sexually attracted to. Their dick WANTS hotter, but they don’t think they can GET hotter because they’ve been socially conditioned to believe looks matter and they can only get girls in their “looks range” etc Just bullshit FI-conditioned nonsense to help weed out the guys who don’t have confidence to approach that hottie (that she wouldn’t be attracted to anyway) from the guys who do. SO a lot of the time they adjust their whole 1-10 scale based on their limiting beliefs. This is why I push guys to talk to HOT girls that they think are OUT of their looks range, so they can get positive feedback and start realizing that their limit isn’t anywhere near as low as society conditioned them to believe.
That’s why at no point in the above rating stuff did I talk about your own rating of yourself or society’s rating of yourself, because it doesn’t matter if you’re pro-actively running game and get your game skills tight like you should be working on. I don’t even know what my rating for myself would be, I’m basically average across the board, probably a 7 or something, I literally don’t even know, maybe a 6 or like a high 7 if you overlook the chub lol? It doesn’t matter at ALL to the point where it’s not even a thing I would invest actual thought into determining lol It’s just not relevant to anything infield.
Anyway Tyler’s infield at 1:30 (I still don’t like Luke’s game btw, he comes off too asexual to me and I rarely see girls actually give him what looks like legitimate sexual attraction, buuut he also runs a different style of game that’s 100% social circle focused where you don’t heavily game the girls in public you just be fun and then isolate a girl at the end of the party and do your “real” gaming in isolation where she has no reason NOT to fuck you and has discretion etc (at 36:40 he talks about leading social circle hangouts to isolation and gaming with Dan Bilzerian and a bit of Dan’s style and he makes good points about how hot girls WANT to talk about dirty sexual topics), but either way Tyler in the infield here is the one I want to make a point about):
At 1:30 Tyler (who’s been purposely getting fat all year (lots of carbs and no gym) so he can make a YouTube channel on fitness where he goes from being fat to in shape lol, so he’s late 30s, almost fully George Costanza balding at this point, 5’8″, nasally voice, retarded insane ginger beard like a homeless man, doesn’t dress in fitted suits with matching pocket-squares etc) pulls a girl that, regardless of where you’d place her on the 1-10 (“I don’t like fake bitches”, “she’s too skinny”, “she sounds dumb” etc) or where you’d place him (he’s not the Chad Thundercock ideal by any means), she is OBJECTIVELY a “hot” girl that’s “out of Tyler’s league”.
He SHOULDN’T be able to get her legitimately attracted to him if we go by what he’s objectively rated on a 1-10 Chad Thundercock scale VS what most of the guys in the bar that night would have rated the girl on 1-10 in the club that night (VS us watching from our computer chairs where we can critique her pointy elbows).
But she’s part of Luke’s social circle so Tyler has built in social proof and he has good subcomms/game/etc but he stresses that he barely has to actually DO anything because of his socially proofed VALUE (just having fun with her at the start (when he’s first dancing behind her you can tell she’s just attention whoring and isn’t really into him), then he focuses on spiking her emotions (A1) until she’s giving A2, tests for compliance with making her lick the other girl’s nipples etc and qualifies her (you can see him talking with her behind Luke and the other girl, clearly getting into more rapport, also lol at the brown guy hanging off Tyler trying to fuck with him lol I think that’s RSD Ryan a former instructor) so he’s building A3, and in the diner he focuses more on lasers and rapport/comfort/qualifying, standard Mystery Method structure in action).
Also lol at his sweaty gross back, bald spot, and being shorter than her as they leave the club at 3:05. Does Tyler look like the type of guy that ANYONE seeing this girl would EXPECT her to go home with? That that’s the natural “looks range” everyone would expect to see? Were there NO more physically attractive guys in the club than Tyler? He was the 10/10 at that venue? A Vegas nightclub where girls dress like that didn’t have any Chad Thundercocks in it?
But would he have gotten her if he passively sat around and played the “let the girl decide based on our looks” game like other good-looking guys in the club did when they saw her? No, she wouldn’t have even noticed him. She’d have done that “grind on Luke’s friend for the cameras” thing and then ignored him the rest of the night.
And he knows how SHE probably views herself on the 1-10 scale, and can narrow that down more accurately from interacting with her, so he games her based on THAT, not based on what he thinks she is or even what society thinks she is (because if she indicates that she’s actually low self-esteem then he would calibrate to her viewing herself as more of a 6, whereas if she acts cocky then he calibrates to her viewing herself more like a 10).
“go out to clubs, try to break in VIP, deal with that shit, open the 21 y/o hotties, do so WITH A STARTING DISADVANTAGE (like yannow, being short lol)…”
lol see SCRAY would find a way to be macking the girls in Luke’s social circle infield there. Because Scray gets that if you’re just a normal dude and you want HOT girls you have to hustle and find ways to get TO them, while most guys wouldn’t even get INTO that club, let alone know how to befriend Luke and get access to those girls…they would just go to the shitty pub down the street with the average crowd and then cry about how women are all fat lol
This goes back to what I said in my Halloween rant which I’m gonna post again before Halloween, but you should ALL be approaching the hottest girls you can find on Halloween because they will be friendly by DEFAULT on Halloween because they’re out purposely trying to draw attention. Fuck whatever you want at the end of the night, but step up and approach the hottest girls and try to push those sets for a Same Night Lay and gather the reference experiences (and potential social connections) to where THOSE girls become a part of what you feel entitled to instead of just what you masturbate to on PornHub lol
Why do I harp on “pro-active” so much? 1:18 is an example from Madison (average height black dude with some crooked teeth):
Whatever you rate this girl and her friends, the ATTENTION they’re getting from decent/good-looking dudes is inflating their value (in that environment in that moment at least). Even the fatty has a tall decent looking dude making out with her. You can rate that girl a 1 if you want, she’s going to think that she can get guys like that and need to be treated based on how she rates herself based on this social feedback and her internals.
While that’s going on a taller better looking guy starts in on Madison’s girl at 2:25, so she’s got guys fighting over her. Again it doesn’t matter if she’s just an average chick to you, in THAT moment she may feel like she’s an 8. You read everything from how she acts, her body-language, how she responds to things, etc for how to calibrate your game.
Now for the pro-active part…that AMOG who comes in walks off looking at his phone so he probably just got her phone number instead of pushing for the Same Night Lay. Then the guy who was making out with the fatty hailed a cab for Madison’s girl and probably the fatty since fatty vanished, she’s probably in the cab too (meanwhile another average girl has two guys, one tall decent-shape lookin dude in the white shirt, still on her).
99% of guys would go “well that’s it, that’s done, they’re getting in a cab, and that guy will probably go with them”. Even that guy isn’t jumping right in. Madison gets her attention and then spikes her Buying Temp and the taller guy realizes he’s gaming her and tries to get her attention back but knowing how to spike a girl’s Buying Temp is how you keep her RAS focused on you and off other guys (which is why I stress learning to do it) and Madison gets the invite to jump in the cab and join them and instead of thinking it over or over-gaming or engaging the AMOG he just instantly jumps through the window of opportunity and they take off with the tall AMOG literally saying “What’s going ON here?!?” as you hear the girls saying “I love this guy (Madison)!!” through his mic lol
Madison is probably objectively not as good looking as some of those guys were. But as long as you’re pro-active that looks shit doesn’t really matter. It makes such an insignificant difference that it’s not worth worrying about.
“Game savvy I would expect his standards to be higher than they were while he was Beta.”
Unfortunately “game savvy” doesn’t equate to “actually having higher standards infield”😦 lol All comes down to the entitlement you develop (which comes from field experience pushing yourself to approach and game hot girls that are above your entitlement level).
“Are docs still marrying nurses these days”
Don’t know if they’re marrying them but they’re fucking the shit out of them lol And why wouldn’t they, they all work retarded hours cooped up in the hospital together and the doctor is basically acting like a boss and treated as high-value by everyone and has preselection as nurses ping off eachother for which guys are attractive etc In the environment those nurses are spending most of their time in, the outgoing cool doctors are basically the top of the hypergamy chain for them. On top of it they’re all going through ups and downs emotionally together with stressful work, long hours, losing patients etc so there’s a lot of fast comfort-building.
But it comes down to the same as always: the nerdy beta doctors are getting classified as potential providers at best or ignored completely and the alpha cool outgoing doctors have nurses jumping on their dick when they all party together (which they do a fuckton, like multiple times a week lol ’cause they have money to burn and can just buy rounds of drinks for all the nurses no fucks given and get them wasted and all go back to whoever’s fancy condo for the afterparty where they can hook up)
Also I’m only talking about young doctors working in dynamic/chaotic hospital environments with young nurses VS like, a 55yo doctor working in a small quiet clinic prescribing ear medication for kids lol That guy would probably have to deal with more legal risks like an office employee would.
“Some people think it’s a waste of mental energy to even consider the first one”
I think Scray is just pointing out that like, a lot of this stuff is just a waste of mental energy and newbies can be affected by that stuff in a negative way, in that it doesn’t do a newbie any good infield to know that like, Scray thinks Jennifer Lawrence is a 10 (or whatever, I forget who said what lol), ’cause if he thought JLaw was a 7 now he’s gonna meet a JLaw and be like “oh man, she’s a 10” and pedestalize her when he shouldn’t. And if he thinks JLaw is a 10 but Scray says “naw she’s a 6 man”, he’s gonna be less proud of himself (and reap less internal entitlement rewards) when he gets her because he only got a 6 by other guys on a forum’s standards, etc etc
Like, I think he’s just pointing out that there’s no real practical benefit to it aside from guys shooting the shit on a forum. But I don’t care if guys are posting pics to rate for fun (which I think is what hank was doing), I have no dog in the fight on either side, I’m just dropping general rating systems related information, none of this is aimed at anyone specific.
“so you can’t choose the HIGH VALUE behavior in every situation unless you can ACCURATELY evaluate each situ, which includes having a good idea of the CURRENT value people place on you.”
Right, what we’re saying when I say “your rating doesn’t matter” isn’t really in conflict. I’m describing the guy who gets his skills to where he CAN accurately evaluate each situation. ie – Tyler walks into Luke’s party not caring whether he’s a 4 or 10, he just knows that he’ll have a certain level of high value by default to the girls by being friends with Luke, so he doesn’t have to do much compared to if he was out solo and crashing someone else’s VIP party where he would have to bust out a ton of game to DHV his way up to where they see him as the same level of high value as he’s seen at Luke’s party.
But to me none of that has to do with his looks rating, it has to do with his value rating to the people he’s interacting with moment to moment. Like whether he’s a 1 or a 10 doesn’t really matter, the 10 guy on Death Row has low value in that moment to the people around him and the 1 guy who’s friends with Luke and DHVs and has preslection etc has high value in that moment to the people around him.
I just always assume that while I’m obviously a 10 (lol), by DEFAULT I have zero value. I’ll HAVE 10 value to ALL of them, when I can DHV enough in front of them to HAVE that value, so my goal in gaming is just to DHV enough to have that value and get the girl. Nice and simple. My actual looks don’t matter. I can stand beside the super good-looking guy choding out on Death Row and we’re both invisible to the girl, and I can enter a set with an uglier guy than me but if he’s more fun and charismatic and sexual etc than me and can get the girls emotionally reacting to him and can get me reacting to him (him being 0.00001% cooler than me) then he’s going to take over the girls’ RAS and get the attraction.
Like, my actual looks rating doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is how these people in this moment perceive my value. My INHERENT value doesn’t even matter, a nerdy quiet doctor who saved a million lives and is rich as shit will still get ignored if he can’t DEMONSTRATE value to the girls and the girls don’t know all that stuff about him. But if I come along and brag for him about that stuff, that helps demonstrate his value to them.
And on the flip side I can be a complete wreck with nothing going for me but if I can demonstrate the things that I know, to this person, in this moment, calibrated to their value system, the environment, etc are “high value”, I’ll be high value. My objective looks rating doesn’t matter (picture the nerd girl rejecting the Chad Thundercock jock for the weird skinny artsy dude because in her value system he demonstrates more high value)
And what do girls value most across the board? More than a 6-pack or money? FEELS lol
“It hit me today that a lot of “counselling” both religious and not religious basically assumes attraction exists. Choreplay is one of their go-to things, at best that is Comfort. In fact, a lot of the stuff counsellors suggest is Comfort. So counselling is like a man running MM who tries to blow past all Attraction stages and cut right to Comfort, how does that work out?”
Yup. Just like “be nice and bring her flowers” is great when you’re so high-value that you intimidate her (aka the guy she pictures when you ask her how a guy can get her, she’s not picturing how can balding ugly Tyler get her), and she would want him to raise her up to his value with compliments pedestalization etc
“But MAP and Rollo’s books are more approachable for most married men.”
Agreed. Those things will make them do the things they’d naturally have been doing the whole time in a pLTR…wait why did they get married in the first place? 😉😉😉 LOLOLOL DONT SHOOT ME EVERY1.
“I can’t find any that I can afford”
Can you do a roommate situation, at least until you can save up for a better place?
Type “RSD LAIR (your city name)” into Google if you have no other options, you might be able to find a PUA who needs a roommate or can hook up a fellow newbie PUA with a place. A lot of us understand the crazy sacrifices we make to get to better cities to game in lol
Plan out how you can ask for an extension incase it comes to that, same as you’d plan out any other routine (put yourself inside their head, try to relate to them and relate your situation to them in a way where they’d understand, etc) VS just winging it.
Also try the RooshV Forum. Someone there might have a place or be connected and able to help you get a place. Use a different account name for all of this so no one can link “hank” to the guy asking for help in X City lol plus they all probably hate me so don’t mention me lol
Sedfast forum guys are good dudes but I don’t know where you could post on there to ask for help, they don’t have a forum for travel/cities/meetups/etc
“And speaking of going to a bar, and thinking back at @YaReally comment about Halloween, it’s not to early this weekend to ask the young ladies, “So have you put any thought into what you’ll be for Halloween yet?””
Yup, and for a month afterward you can ask what they were for Halloween too. But don’t just ask, QUALIFY THEM on it.
Instead of “So what is/was your halloween costume? Oh, that’s a cool idea!” bla bla, apply Julien’s “boring conversation” stuff (Julien free PIMP vids on YouTube) to add authoritative/qualifying tonalities to it.
“What’s your costume going to be.” (breaking rapport tonality, like it’s a challenge, like you’ll walk away if she says something dumb)
“I’m going to be a (whatever)!”
“No. That’s terrible.”
“What omg!! What’s wrong with (whatever)??”
“Not slutty enough.”
“Well it has a short skirt and (bla bla qualifying)”
Take the conversation sexual, act as if it’s retarded to you that a girl wouldn’t dress up sexy for Halloween like you can’t even comprehend the existence of a girl who’s shy on Halloween etc (because hot girls dress sexy to show it off on Halloween, if you’re the kind of guy who’s around hot girls a lot that’s the mentality you would have…imagine a girl telling Dan Bilzerian she’s going to dress as a truck driver for Halloween, how would he react given the lifestyle he lives in?)
You can add in stuff like telling her what her costume SHOULD be (if she’s smokin hot, tell her she should dress as a truck driver or something unattractive implying that she’s ugly, if she’s shy bring out her sexual side describing sexy costumes and qualify her body etc), and disqualifying her entirely (freezeout, backturn, walk away, just noticeably show less interest, etc) until she wins you back etc
And remember: Halloween is 4 nights this year, you should be interacting with the hottest girls you see for those 4 nights because they are going to be more receptive than any other time of the year…even if they’re with guys, opening them on their costume is a welcome open because they put effort into it and/or are nervous about it and/or proud of how they look etc.
You wanna be engaged with the smokeshow ones that are dressed in the most slutty revealing outfits where guys would hover hands them in photos because they’re scared to even touch the girl, those are the ones you should be approaching and gathering reference experience with all Halloween. Especially if you’re not a super stud looks-wise, you need to gather reference experiences that these smokeshow hotties are friendly and can even be attracted to you.
Hit strip clubs (don’t buy dances, just sip a drink and enjoy the show then head out to a normal bar) between now and Halloween to get used to being around half-naked girls if you need to.
After Halloween bars will return to their usual state with a couple smokeshows out per night and they’ll be dressed normal and out with their friends etc, but if you stepped up then you’ll have 4 nights more worth of reference experience lasering, kino’ing, making out with, maybe even pulling hotties wearing almost nothing, and you’ll feel a boost of entitlement that makes the harder/hotter sets in less optimal conditions less daunting, which will overall speed up your pickup skill progress.
Every single dude trying to learn pickup should come out of Halloween with a boost to his internals every single year. That adds up.
“I sent her a text this morning that basically said I am going to fuck you in Italy. I love you, and this is what’s going down. We’ve had a number of conversations about sex before, about what didn’t happen in Odessa, etc. But I never pushed too hard. She says can we talk. So I skype her. And we go round and round about this.”
lol she’s not BPD, you just don’t understand how she sees you:
The fact that you haven’t dumped her ass for not fucking you is why you aren’t allowed to act like a Lover. You’ve already shown her you’re not a Lover, because a Lover would be fucking someone else by now. But you’ve pedestalized her because you bought into the EE unicorn myth and you don’t have the ability to get hot girls here so you can’t just dump her.
Literally everything you do to try to make this work just becomes evidence to her that you aren’t a Lover. In the same way that everything you do to try to save a rotting sandwich from the garbage can would imply that you don’t have access to better food, if you did you wouldn’t be dusting the dirt off that sandwich.
“Also, I am not in any way “settling” for a 44 yo woman. Younger women were/are available to me, but that is not what i choose.”
WHAT SHE’S 44??!?!?!? lololololololol
@Blaximus @SJF @Sentient @Rollo
“Lol. Maaannnn…. I’m starting to get extremely tired of the whole married=blue pill nonsense and I feel a YaReally 36 inch long text-a-palooza, with bad words, in the near future.”
lol I don’t know why you OMGs are on Mitch’s case. He’s doing everything you guys told him to:
– He’s vetted for a special unicorn that isn’t like all those bar sluts staring at their phone screens (EE chick isntead of UMC/religious)
– He’s picked a woman from the same generation as your wives (since you guys don’t have experience legally monoLTR’ing <25yo 8+/10s past the NRE stage in 2016)
– He's picked a woman who probably doesn't use social media much and didn't grow up with it and probably gives him her full attention because her phone isn't going off 24/7 because she doesn't have a horde of 1000s of orbiters being a 44yo post-wall woman istead of a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016
– and his plan is to just not listen to anyone who tells him that he might fail and just believe REALLY REALLY HARD that he's going to beat the odds, that's EXACTLY what you want is for him to disregard all those NEGATIVE warnings and just plow forward, as long as he SUPER TOTES BELIEVES IT he'll be FINE BRAH
– I mean shit, look at his description of her: "None of you self-styled alpha’s would stand a chance with her. Guys like you have been sniffing around her all her life. She has far too much pride, internal fortitude and self-respect to give you the time of day." Might as well just quote any of you describing your own magic HB10 69yo wives! He's FOUND THE UNICORN you guys!! Just like you did!!
– He's even been in TRUE RELATIONSHIPS(TM) like you OMGs: "Most of what I have learned in these areas I have learned from being in true relationship with women", not shallow meaningless pointless relationships like all the rest of us idiots here!
– And he's OLD as fuck like you guys, so because he's old he knows EVERYTHING about life, not like us young foolish idiots that no one should listen to!
WTF guys?? You guys should be CELEBRATING Mitch, he's exactly what you OMGs have all been arguing is the a flawless man who will beat all the odds and have a happy successful sex 5 times a day, wife never tests or talks back to him, wife brings him shrimp cocktails, marriage and raise a bunch of amazing kids.
Dude is batting a thousand by your recommendations, why are you guys giving him shit?? This is as close to flawless as it GETS by your recommendations.
I mean, shit, why isn't Blaximus telling us how not all marriages fail and how not all divorces are bad?? C'mon SJF man, bring up all your stories about all the happily married people you guys know!
Mitch is gonna be that guy who makes it work everyone, and if he gets divorced hey, that shit about divorce rape is just SCARE TACTICS by stupid dumb dumb YaReally (and every guy everywhere who lives in the real world and has seen how divorce tends to play out in their friends and families and coworkers and internet forums etc). Don't listen to THAT shit, that's just NEGATIVE.
I thought a REAL MAN(TM) takes risks and that's what makes him a man and makes life worth living!! That's what you OMGs told us! Mitch is just taking risks like a REAL MAN BRO!
lol you guys are hilarious. Mitch is exactly the guy you want to create.
…now do you get why I'm pushing back so hard on your shitty keyboard theory advice? (you don't have to answer that, I know you don't and I know I'll have to keep bringing it up)
"A few months back I think it was either Scray or YaReally who were commenting about how they couldn’t believe that guys actually think like this, but they do, and they cling to that Blue Pill hope because it’s the only thing they know."
Can't see that being me. I know guys cling to hope like this because I watch your guys' "not all marriages fail" advice create guys like this. They're the exact same guys who refuse to learn pickup because they hold onto the idea that they can still be a Nice Guy and not have to learn that evil PUA stuff because some guy told them "hey bro I treat girls nicely and get them so whatever just be yourself" and end up another sad story that E-Mails you on the brink of suicide 10 years later when he's trapped in a dead bedroom.
This is why I was trying to bring up a realistic discussion about what we're telling men about marriage/monogamy.
'cause whether Mitch is Wild Man or not, this is what happens when you give a guy false hope that he can beat the odds if he just finds the right girl and ignores everyone's warnings.
You guys created this and want an echo chamber where discussing the dangers of marriage or the benefits of alternative paths or warning men with stats and trends is shouted down and all advice has to be just slamming people with "tough love" (stupid young people your opinion doesn't count, just listen to what we old men tell you), so let's see you fix him without contradicting your previous "wisdom". I'll get the olympic mats out for this mental gymnastics show lol
“Since you have agreed YOU aren’t and haven’t done this either?”
lol I don’t know why you keep bringing this up. The difference between us is that other guys who ARE trying to monoLTR these girls and get them to ditch social media and orbiters etc, who are reporting what’s happening infield when they try to do it, can’t pull it off either.
So if none of THEM can pull it off, and none of YOU have pulled it off, it’s pretty silly to act like your keyboard theory holds up.
You’re the ones proposing something silly. Until you’ve made a legal monoLTR with a 2016 <25yo 8+/10 not just work long-term past the NRE stage but made her get rid of all her social media and orbiters etc too, then you'll have a case. Until then it's keybaord theory.
Whereas "it doesn't work" isn't keyboard theory, because we have thousands of guys out there trying it and not being able to make it work, including you guys. Unless any of you have gotten a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 to delete her social media accounts and orbiters from her life for you, long-term past the NRE stage (in a monoLTR of course).
"I can only conclude it some kind of autism"
Careful with that projection.
Your problem is you THINK you're saying one thing, but I'm telling you how what your saying is received by guys like Mitch, Big Al, etc I GET what you're saying, but you can't understand why you don't get through to these guys because you're incapable of understanding their position and how what you're saying is processed by them. You keep cramming that square peg not understanding that the hole is round.
"What did I tell you?"
BRO! I'm just quoting YOU! You're the one who said women don't all have 1000+ orbiters! I'm AGREEING with you man! He's found the unicorn, a post-wall old-ass woman (who he MET on social media but she doesn't have ANY other social media orbiters besides him, that's for sure). I mean, what do you want man? I'm AGREEING with you!! This girl he's chosen doesn't have 1000+ orbiters and billionaires! So she's PERFECT marriage material! Tell us some more stories about how marriage works out and the stats are a lie and his wife will make him shrimp cocktails and if he gets divorced it'll be fine as long as he never ever listens to anyone that says it might not work out.
Jeeze I thought you guys would be happier to have Mitch around!!
"The Ukrainian is not a unicorn."
Bro, she's a unicorn if he decides she is. He's an OLD MAN, so that means he knows when he has a unicorn! I mean, what, are we all supposed to run our girls through your approval first? Don't you trust this guy to just KNOW when he has a unicorn? I mean c'mon, this is his fork in the road and he FEELS it in his emotions like Deida!! You don't want him to pass up the fork in the road, I mean, taking risks is what makes him a MAN, you said so yourself!
I mean, what do you expect him to do? NOT jump into wanting to marry his unicorn one-itis? What, you want him to look at stats and facts and be realistic and NOT take risks now? NOW you want him to be risk-averse? After spending 5 articles making fun of me for that and calling PUAs pussies who avoid risk?
C'mon bro, stand up for what you believe in. He hasn't fucked her but that's what those perfect pristine UMC/religious girls you roll with are like right? THEY don't put out for a guy right away like some slutty dumb bar slut bimbo whore like the rest of us 90%'ers date (who we ONLY meet in nightclubs of course, we never game anywhere but nightclubs and always get the drunkest slutties bimbos possible that game works on).
This girl is PERFECTION, she's not putting out right away, that means she has MORALS and VIRTUE BRAH!! Just like your religious UMC girls!!
What's going on? Why aren't you guys championing this guy?
"You really want to keep whining"
I'm not whining, I'm pointing out realistic observations about changes in technology and the influence of our changing culture so we can properly adapt to them. But that's negative and whining to you guys, who will keep producing Mitches and never figure out why they don't listen to your "sage wisdom".
"You have stated that you have no desire whatsoever to have a long term relationship. So why do you even comment on that subject."
Because I'm tired of watching guys like Mitch head off to the slaughter and guys like you giving him advice that he won't listen to because you can't relate to his headspace or his world or ever really get through to him because you OMGs are so solipsistically wrapped up in your own narcissism that you can't even get through to guys while simultaneously squashing any discussion us single guys try to have of how TO get through to them better.
You are doing the FI's work.
"You don’t have it. And yet you dismiss other guys here that actually want it. And these guys have nothing to do with the Mitch Method."
Bro, Mitch WANTS an LTR! And he has a unicorn! Why aren't you guys supportive of him?? His girl passes a bunch of your advice and everyone knows all the married people around you guys are happy 24/7 and the marriage stats are just fear mongering negativity. Why aren't you more supportive of Mitch??
"If you can't bridge the divide of OMG's and Puerarchists, then you are just toying with us here."
lol I tried, multiple times, and every time I got shit on for it. So now I'm making fun of your points because Mitch here is showing what your advice leads to. Just more and more Mitches, off to the slaughter.
"You are not really serious about advancing men's strategy beyond getting laid (and that is fine)."
Oh I'm serious about it. I just realize it's not going to happen on the OMGs watch.
"None of what Mitch is doing or saying makes any sense."
He's the exact end result of all your guys' advice. He's found what he totally knows is a unicorn, who isn't on a bunch of social media with thousands of orbiters or anything, she doesn't put out right away so she must be a proper girl with good morals and virtues, and there's no risk to legally marrying her so he might as well! And as long as he doesn't listen to any of this negativity about how it's probably a bad idea and probably won't work and he just trusts his gut about his girl, he'll be just fine!
"How long you wanna keep this up YaReally?"
I figure you guys have <20-30 years left. I'd rather have realistic discussions that help the modern and future generations of men sooner but…
"You don't value our position. We don't value yours."
Your position is great. And was flawless in a previous era/culture. It's just limited, not field tested in 2016, has limited application now, and is interpreted by guys in ways that lead them to do exactly what Mitch is doing. But it's nice to hear you flat out say you don't value mine instead of pretending you do lol
"What is your end game on a Red Pill blog?"
Same as it's always been, to help current and future generations of men. Unfortunately that requires pointing out examples of why the OMGs advice is flawed.
"(and not PUA ideology about having children or LTR's–you are not well suited for that"
Remember kids, listen to the OMGs, they know everything. Unless they disagree like Mitch and then they don't know anything. Except when they know everything about LTR'ing 2016 girls, except when they haven't done it, but they don't need to do it to have an opinion, except YaReally needs to be married to have one, except, I mean, I don't know, shit.
lol this is hilarious to me because I legitimately don't think you guys can see how contradictory what you say is when you're presented with an actual Mitch in front of you. You don't even see how he's literally just doing exactly what you guys have said (when it's filtered through what a normal dude learning this shit hears).
I mean look at this shit, he just wrote about his life experience JUST LIKE YOU OMGs:
"A quick run-down of some others: backpacked solo through Europe, India, SE Asia for 9 months at the age of 24. Paid for my university degree and the trip myself. I drove a taxicab in Honolulu for 18 months to pay for grad school."
"Professionally, I’ve worked as a journalist, as a plant engineer for the telephone company, and now I’m just a utility regulator. Uh, let’s see. I’ve worked as a bartender, busboy and waiter – mostly these jobs putting myself through college. I’m such a sad beta.
I also happened to meet Mother Theresa."
The dude met MOTHER FUCKING THERESA. And you're gonna tell us all that he doesn't have the life experience to know when he's found a unicorn? When you LITERALLY disqualify all my advice as silly young guy nonsense because I'm not old and experienced in life like you old fuckers?
lololol this is fucking hilarious.
"In other words: Stop being a dick in regards to comments by the OMG's."
I didn't tell Blaximus to throw "36-pages" jabs at me and bring my views on the marriage discussion into this. I was perfectly happy to not touch the Mitch discussion. But you won't call HIM out on poking me, will you lol
@Krauser @all @Culum @Forge @Hank @etc
In other news, Krauser has a bunch of high-quality (visual/audio, no time to watch the actual sets themselves right now) daygame vids on his site right now. He's gone full retard in his writing but scroll down for a handful of good clear infield daygame footage. Should be stuff to learn from and discuss in there and it's nice to see Krauser showing off his current game instead of letting his shitty 1993 potato-cam infield represent his brand lol Will drop some thoughts when I get some more free time and can watch the footage.
“your just jealous…”
lol believe me there is nothing about your position and the path you’re headed down that I am jealous of lol
“If you live life in such a way that you view everything as a learning experience, then I’m going to assert that after 50 years, I have enough experience to decide for my own fucking self what I should do next.”
Hey man, I AGREE with you! These guys should lay off and encourage you to get married to this chick. They spent entire threads telling me that I’m an idiot who doesn’t know anything because I’m only in my 30s and have no life experience like them. You have life experience like them so why are you they getting on your case implying that you don’t know how to screen for a high-quality girl?
C’mon guys, how come you’re hassling this fellow OMG? You think he’s too dumb to know how to screen for a quality girl? Surely he read your stellar advice on the subject. SJF post some walls of Deida text quick!!
I don’t see what’s so difficult about this except that you’re emotionally invested in it and can’t admit when you’re theorizing.
Have you gotten a <25yo 8+/10 in a monoLTR in 2016 to delete all her social media and orbiters? No? Then by LITERAL DEFINITION your opinion on how to accomplish that is THEORY.
Why does that make you so butthurt? Are you so ego invested that you can't even admit that you're theorizing when you haven't actually done something? lol I haven't repaired a modern rocket ship myself…any opinion I have on how to repair a modern rocket ship would be theory, even if I had repaired a rocket ship back in the 50s. What propels a rocket hasn't changed, but a lot of other factors have changed that make my opinion limited.
It would be silly and ego-invested for me to keep spazzing about "B-B-BUT YOU'RE SAYING MY OPINION DOESN'T MATTER?!?! IT'S NOT THEORY!!!" No, it IS theory. By definition, you have not tested the thing you are saying in the culture other guys are living in with the girls other guys are testing it on (and finding it doesn't work on).
"You haven’t had a relationship to speak of, first of all. that thing you posted here when asked about a relationship? Lmao, that wasn’t a relationship man."
So what you're saying is if you haven't had a monoLTR with a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 we can disregard your opinion?
"You talk an awful, awful lot of shit"
That's your problem. You take "your opinion is theory because you logically have not tested it" as a personal attack. Because you're ego-invested in it. So you think I'm attacking you when I'm not, I'm simply pointing out that what you're putting forth is theory and the evidence we collect infield shows that your theory doesn't hold up anymore.
"The ” monoLTR’ing <25yo 8+/10s past the NRE stage in 2016" bullshit you are desperately clinging to as The Ultimate"
The majority of men want an LTR at some point and we agree that a stable 2-parent household is optimal for raising children which means any theory of how to accomplish it has to hold up past the NRE stage. And presumably we want men to reproduce with <25yo (prime fertility window and before they've spent long on the cock carousel and all) 8+/10s (because we're not here to reproduce with 4s).
What's YOUR goal for men? Women older than 25 who are less than 8s? Because that's what Mitch has, so you should be supporting him.
"well, have you done this? If not, why not?"
Like I say I have the combined field reporting of the entire PUA/red pill communities that are all reporting the same thing I'm telling you. You have your guesswork theories. Would you like me to link you a dozen threads from a dozen different pickup/red pill boards about hot girls and social media culture? Since you seem to not have done any research yourself and think I'm just projecting my individual experience.
"And not to engage in an " internet fight " but you are showing your dumb assed immaturity"
Just living up to the label you've given me.
"which gets boring as fuck because you don't know when to just let it go, by talking shit about guy's wives. You really need to stop that shit."
I didn't bring up your shrimp cocktail or Sentient scaring his wife when she provokes him. I didn't say SJF's wife has a wrinkle-free vagina (defying all the old grandma porn on the internet lol). You guys are bringing your wives into the discussion, so your wives are fair game for discussion. You're the one discarding my opinion based on my relationship experience so we're free to discuss your relationship experience. If you are discussing how you make long-term married game work but you are married to a 4, that's relevant. If you are discussing how you make long-term married game work but you are married to a 60yo instead of a 23yo in 2016, that's relevant.
"You've DRAGGED this stupid argument on and on for 4 fucking threads now"
You're the one who wrote:
"Lol. Maaannnn…. I’m starting to get extremely tired of the whole married=blue pill nonsense and I feel a YaReally 36 inch long text-a-palooza, with bad words, in the near future."
I didn't ask you to write that. I didn't provoke you. I answered some pickup related stuff earlier in the thread and dropped a comment to Mitch about his situation. You ever see the comic where the girl shovels shit into the dumpster labelled Internet and then cries when it dumps shit back on her? That's you. "Wahhh why can't I take pot shots and have him just not respond??"
"Push yourself back away from the keyboard and go find the hb8whatever the hell, with thousands and thousands of orbiters..lol"
You mean "most of them"?
"and PUA her into marrying you and having your kid"
This is a very rational and non-emotional argument you're bringing up, very solidly presenting your case.
"oh shit, wait, you don’t believe in marriage so you laugh and tease married guys like a girl."
Where am I teasing you? I'm pointing out flaws in your advice.
"You just want to pLtr a chick and knock her up."
Ideally, along with the long-term 2-parent household thing. But apparently any relationship that falls outside of legal monogamous marriage is taboo in the red pill community because the OMGs say so.
"Thing is, you don’t know, what you don’t know. And you seem to really be too fucking dense to even understand that point. There are things in life that you don’t understand."
Cool, so then Mitch knows everything like you? He's old like you guys and he sounds like he's done a lot with his life, way more than me and my dumb young ignorant inexperienced self. And yet you guys are saying that age doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing or are right…hmmm…
"You have a bunch of followers here in the comments, I will grant you that much."
There's a reason for that: what I say actually resonates with the REAL WORLD that they live in and that they're trying to make relationships (of whatever sort) work in. You OMGs seem incapable of relating to men who aren't from your generation and a world that isn't the one you grew up in…which is fine, but I'll continue to explain things in terms that modern guys dealing with modern culture can learn from because you refuse to make an effort to understand their world, choosing to disregard them as not worth your time or ignorant or mock them.
"I think you should continue to help them develop PUA skills and encourage them as you have been doing."
I'm glad I have your approval.
"But your inexperienced voice on other matters? You need to drop that right there. Seriously."
So then you agree you OMGs' opinion on long-term handling social media with 8+/10s in 2016 past the NRE stage of a monoLTR is irrelevant? If we're going to disregard people's opinions based on their direct experience and all.
Or can we agree that you are theorizing when you give advice to men about handling these girls and social media in modern culture, just like I'm theorizing if I give parenting advice?
"You know zero about real ltr’s."
Mitch says he's been in REAL relationships. So like I say, he's your perfect candidate for what you demand a guy be to make marriage work. And yet you don't support him?
"Yet you keep spouting off keyboard Jockey bullshit like you are an authority of some kind."
Feel free to actually counter the things I say with actual logic instead of your usual emotional character-assassination.
"But what I’m really tired of is your snarky fucking attacks against myself, Rollo, SJF and Sentient. And even worse, attacking our wives. That childish, hiding-behind-your-keyboard shit needs to cease."
So you can throw snarky "36 page reply from YaReally" "you haven't had a REAL relationship you don't know shit about life" attacks at me, but when I shovel the shit right back at you I'm the asshole? Do you understand cause and effect?
"You’re not trying to help anybody with that shit."
I'm pointing out the absurdity and inconsistency in your advice. Mitch is exactly what your advice produces. He's doing everything you told him to do in the marriage debates. He's selected a girl he KNOWS (from his vast old man life experience) is a unicorn (like UMC/religious girls and girls with good morals etc who don't put out right away and has too much self respect to fuck any of us) and he's refusing to look at any "negative" stats or listen to any "negative" advice that implies he might not make it. He believes he's the exception to the rule and is doing exactly what you yourself have advised: refusing to let the idea of failure enter his mind. He's taking all the risks that a Real Man(TM) should take (as SJF says) and not passing up his fork in the road (SJF) that he feels in his gut is right.
You guys are just mad because you didn't realize what your advice produces. Mitch pisses you off because he's getting your message all wrong. Because you can't relate to Mitch, because you refuse to budge on your belief that you know everything. You refuse to put yourself inside the head of a single guy in 2016 and what they're dealing with and even understand WHY Mitch is warping your advice the way he is.
And because you refuse to do that, Mitch will walk off to the slaughter.
"You’re grinding some kind of personal axe with us older guys"
I didn't bring me into this discussion. You're the one who requested a 36 page rant from YaReally. Maybe drop the snarky pot-shots next time.
"but I think you just like to feel safer when attacking people who disagree or are doing something you lack the skills to do successfully."
Of course you think that. Because you're emotionally invested in being right. So anything I say that disagrees with you, you take as a personal attack and get butthurt about. When a teacher marked your math quiz wrong did you cry about how they just "have it out for you" when they're simply telling you that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5?
"But why are you hell bent on convincing guys who listen to you of being so nearsighted and afraid?"
I know right? Mitch shouldn't be so nearsighted and afraid. He SHOULD get married to this chick, you approve of it right? I mean, if he DOESN'T then he's just nearsighted and afraid falling into the YaReally negative brainwashing cult of stats and reality.
"Why can’t they just read your words, and gain understanding and make up their own minds?"
Because whenever I post the word "marriage" it's followed by a group of you OMGs clutching your pearls crying about how I'm attacking you, before you take your next shots at me and then are surprised when I respond in kind.
"Are you trying to build a fucking cult of some kind?"
Yes. A cult of guys who have a realistic expecation of what trying to long-term LTR a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 is like and the challenges they'll encounter so we have less Mitches.
"Could you do it on your archive please?"
I've never told any of you to stop writing or to take your opinions elsewhere. I've only ever pointed out flaws in your logic. What's that quote about cutting out a man's tongue again?
"I agree with Sentient. You have some kind of mental peculiarity or something. Wildman of PUA."
Of course, anyone who dares to disagree with the OMG hugbox must be defective. The OMGs know everything, they have experience with everything that transcends the ages. Changes in society have no relevance, when an OMG builds a rocket in 1940 he knows everything about rockets in 2016.
The funniest part is that none of you ever actually bring anything logical to the table, it's always just insults and character-assassination like this. None of you has ever said "well actually the way I handled this in my marriage follows this red pill principle which is backed up by this other principle that's heavily field tested and while I haven't done this with a <25yo 8+/10 so this is just my theory on it, I think it should work pretty similar".
"Face it man, you don’t really know anything about marriage."
And you don't know anything about LTR'ing <25yo 8+/10s and making them give up their social media and orbiters in 2016. I'm glad you agree your opinion on the subject is just theory then.
"If those reading TRM decide to never, ever get married or be in a ltr, that’s their individual choice. Get it?"
Well then why are you guys hassling Mitch? It's his individual choice to get married. You guys are just being negative if you tell him he's dumb to chase this girl.
"Quit disrespecting men here by talking shit about our wives."
YOU guys bring your wives up. I'm sure they're lovely people, but they are not <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 born and raised in social media culture. That's relevant to the discussion of how to LTR <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.
"But as far as I’m concerned, you overstepped your fucking bounds this time."
What are you even mad about lol Like specifically quote what part "overstepped my bounds". I didn't say anything bad about your wives. YOU brought up shrimp cocktails. Why do you think Mitch wants to wife up some old EE chick? 'cause he thinks he's gonna have her making him shrimp cocktails.
It's like you just swing a chainsaw in a crowd with your eyes closed and no regard for what effect that will have on the guys like Mitch looking for advice.
"Like I said before, I don’t know where you are…lol…( but I work in ITsecurity…hmmmm…)"
Is that a threat? I'd just like to know if I'm officially being threatened by Blaximus (a red pill man) for disagreeing with his opinion and if The Rational Male is now a space where I have to worry about being doxxed and having my career/safety potentially ruined. Because if you'd like me to leave bad enough to threaten me like that, I'll be more than happy to not post in the Manosphere again.
"but I don’t see what you see, I don’t know people that see what you see"
Because you aren't a single guy sarging and trying to fuck/LTR/etc <25yo 8+/10s and you probably don't hang out with a lot of them beyond asking some young relative of yours how his weekend was.
"One function of being ” really old ” is that I didn’t grow up around people that called themselves ” Men ” that conduct themselves as you do, at your fucking age."
I don't know many "really old" men who threaten to dox people they disagree with on the internet, at your fucking age.
"You ain’t no kid….numerically anyway."
Well which is it, am I young and ignorant or am I old enough to have an opinion?
"But stop shit talking so much,"
You're the one who brought me into this discussion with your 36 pages jabs. If you don't want to hear my opinion don't bring me up.
"and then accusing everyone else of keyboard jockeying/armchair theory."
I'm not accusing everyone else, just the OMGs, and saying "you haven't monoLTR'ed a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 and made her give up her social media and orbiters long-term past the NRE stage" is an objective fact.
"Live your life as you see fit and let others live theirs as they see fit without your dumb assed, childish snark."
Then why are you guys giving Mitch shit? Let him life his life, let him go run off to this chick and marry her, nothing wrong with that right?
"I’d caution you to grow the fuck up a little…..no…know what? Don’t do anything. Stay just like you are. TIME REVEALS ALL my boy."
"Older men don’t know shit, right? You are going to reinvent the fucking wheel."
Rockets in 2016 are far superior to rockets from the 50s. If we applied the attitude of "OMGs solved it so there's no point discussing it, you're not going to reinvent the wheel" to any other area of life we would stagnate.
And no The Diplomat isn't a sock puppet of me. He's just saying what a lot of lurkers are thinking but are scared to say because you've created an environment where anyone who dares to disagree with you guys will get dog-piled and now apparently we have to worry about you doxing us because you can't just bring up logical discussion points to support your argument.
Now please let me know if you actually plan to dox me for disagreeing with you so that this can be my last post in the Manosphere if that's the case and so that future posters can be aware that posting here may result in their doxing by you.
“Keep it going, Ya. You may be staring down a problem that can never be fixed, but I’d wager that there a ton of too-timid-to-post lurkers on here that are carefully weighing and hopefully internalizing the questions and advice you post here on TRM.”
Thanks for the support. And that’s literally the only reason I post about the subject. I know I’m not going to convince the OMGs themselves (and don’t care if I do). What I’d like to is convince them to allow us to have a discussion about the changes in society that we’re noticing and how best to adapt and overcome them, because otherwise we might as well just be posting about how you should court a girl by asking her father if you may take her on a date in your horse & buggy…
But that appears to be too much to ask because the OMGs need to chime in to remind us what badasses they are and how dumb we are for thinking anything’s changed since their day at every opportunity. To the point where I’m now being flat-out threatened with something that I would never threaten another user with (I KNOW shit about some of you from the times I’ve told you to edit and hide your information in the past to avoid doxing and would never even THINK to threaten any of you with that shit no matter what you said to me, and now I’m getting threatened with doxing? From a fucking regular “respected” poster?)
“…So why doesn’t he just let it go and talk to his ” audience ” without swinging at me and Rollo and SJF and Sentient constantly? Simple question.”
I don’t know, why don’t you just talk to your “audience” without swinging jabs at me with your snarky 36 page and “before YaReally comes to say X” shit?
“He makes it personal, then feigns that it’s not personal.”
You TAKE disagreement personal. You bring personal things into the discussion and then get pissed off if anyone discusses them.
“YaReally seems to get off on deriding older, successfully married guys in order to drive home his personal ( and it is personal ) pov.”
No, I get off on pointing out faulty logic, clarifying theory from what holds up infield, and making things relatable for current and future generations of men. You guys just happen to provide me with a ton of material to do that with.
“It is not posturing if you have done it.”
You haven’t LTR’ed a <25yo 8+/10 raised in modern culture past the NRE stage while simultaneously having them give up their social media and cut their orbiters out of their life for you. So you are posturing/theorizing, just like I said.
"But if the ” discussion ” has to consistently devolve into old man hate, then what’s the point?"
Again you take "your advice isn't very relevant" as "hate". You take disagreement as personal attacks. I get the impression that no one ever really disagrees with you in real life because you don't seem to know how to deal with it.
"I’ve never struggled with figuring shit out"
This is probably why you don't understand why Mitch isn't listening to you. And why future Mitches won't listen to you. This is that solipsism I was talking about.
"even knows everything there is to know about stuff he’s never ever done"
I crowd-source my knowledge. Do you understand how many PUAs/red pill guys have been actively reporting their experience for the past 15 years? I can link you a dozen threads from reddit's TRP forum ALONE that back up what I'm saying. Have you even read any of them? You're going by the experience of a handful of guys you know. We're gathering the knowledge of THOUSANDS.
"So like a bitch, he labels us and piles us all together as one voice. Easier that way. He can attribute one’s statement to all of us."
If you would stop ganging up on me I'd be happy to address each of you individually, but when every post I make with the word marriage in it results in you OMGs all flipping your shit with a dozen posts misrepresenting my position I have to take some shortcuts and summarize your points as a whole to make it through this constant 5 VS 1 dog-pile lol
"He’s always correct, right?"
All I do is report what field evidence tells us. And when I theorize I'm happy to admit I'm theorizing and back up all of my theory with logic and consistent field-tested red pill principles that we all agree on. No one ever debates those though, they just call me "a little bitch" like you're doing to try to dismiss what I'm saying.
"And I don’t understand ” todays female demographic”…why exactly? Projection. Because YaReally says so. You buy that? Really?"
Well, HAVE you been fucking and LTR'ing <25yo today's 8+/10s past the NRE stage while making them voluntarily give up their social media and cut their orbiters out of their life for you? Or are you theorizing?
"I’d wager the rest of my life’s earnings that I know 10X more about ” todays young demographic ” than YaReally can ever imagine. I talk to more 20 somethings a week than he does. I’d bet on it."
lol well at least I know how I can make my fortune now. You've really gone fully off the deep end into delusion land at this point man.
"And, as I’ve said before to the sound of crickets, no man that I know of any age cosigns what I show them that YaReally has written of late regarding the thousands of orbiters/billionaire/vanir ( yeah, I took them back that far ..)/24-7 phone usage/can’t get ’em hb8-10’s. 20 fucking guys. Nobody cosigning."
And yet we have guys in this thread, the last thread, the threads before that, all over the red pill community, all over the PUA community, guys I roll with, who are all pro-actively going out multiple nights a week to fuck/date/LTR those girls and hang with (and ARE) those guys etc that all DO cosign with it. I wonder who's experience is more likely to be accurate…
This comes back to the emotional investment thing. It's incomprehensible to you that there could be something you don't fully understand. Just like you were adamant that social pressure doesn't exist for you and it took months before you finally understood what I was trying to tell you.
"So it’s ” every ” and ” all “. Every girl, every wife, every marriage, every OMG, every-every-every."
Only in your exaggerations. From the start I've said that it's statistically increasing and the trend is getting worse. You're the one who blusters that up into "SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S IMPOSSIBLE?!?!!?!" no matter how many times I repeat that it's simply more difficult than it was in your day, not impossible.
"I don’t get the feeling Ya truly understands Rollo’s writings or RP."
I'm not the one who throws the red pill out the window and says that getting married "changes things" because "love".
"But sometimes he goes way out of his depth"
You mean like telling guys how to LTR an 8+/10 in 2016 past the NRE stage and make her give up her social media and cut all her orbiters out of her life when you haven't actually done that yourself?
"and worse of all, that younger guys are special and should just abandon everything and do….what exactly?"
They're not special. We just understand the red pill better than you did and have a comprehensive body of work (thanks to Rollo et al) that we could discuss applying to relationships to find that "what exactly", if you would allow us to have the discussion without thumping your chest about how you know everything and we're stupid for trying to optimize a rocket engine from the 50s that's currently broken and breaking worse every year as the trends show.
"He acts like I’m stuck in the 80’s. Nope, I am present with perspective. He has no perspective to speak of. He doesn’t really value perspective. If you can’t get it from a pua, he has no real use for it."
Again this is just you doing the "OMGs know everything across all timelines forever even if we've never done it we know everything about it better than young guys" posturing and then insulting me instead of bringing to the table logic and field-tested red pill data that backs up your argument.
@Anonymous Reader @Rollo @Blaximus
"Dude, I don’t recall YaReally taking any swings at Rollo. That could be a clue."
I don't take swings at Rollo because Rollo doesn't take swings at me. Rollo also has a more realistic understanding of the changes that have happened in society and their ramifications because his mindsets are more flexible than other OMGs (probably as a result of being knee-deep in this for so long).
"I think Yareally is facing some sort of existential crisis… Now mid 30s with not much to show for it… Clinging to his internet identity…"
Again this is just you guys not having any actual logical factual/statistical data you can bring to the table and trying to character-assassinate. Same thing feminists and SJWs have been doing for years, that's why it's just funny to me seeing it here lol
"Never understand guys that are so hostile to other guys successes… Even if it is a road they chose not to travel."
Mitch will be the next success story like you guys, right? You guys support him?
"You obviously don’t read shit you write …………because you contradict yourself over and over and over and over and over."
It's hilarious to me. They really can't see that. That's what I was pointing out with the Mitch stuff. If they were ACTUALLY consistent, then Mitch is following their guidelines for a successful long-term marriage. But even THEY know Mitch is fucked, but the cognitive dissonance between their advice and the end result OF that advice is too hard to process so they literally can't see how what they're saying CREATES Mitches.
"You guys call out ya countless times…………… But for the demographic hes speaking about hes been correct. So why would we call him out for being corrrect."
lol this. Why would they tell me I'm wrong? What I'm saying resonates with them because when they go out and try to do this shit they get the exact results that I'm saying they get that you guys refuse to believe they get because you asked your neighbor a few questions and he didn't drop a 36 page PUA rant about the dynamics he's seeing infield when he's trying to LTR and cut off the social media and orbiters of <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.
"Also you can tell when someone genuinely cares and is trying to help people instead of just stroke his own and cock and type shit that doesn’t benefit anyone to feel better about himself"
❤ There's a whole lotta ego-investment around here. Guys here to share their diary of how badass they were today and pat eachother on the back with no desire to help anyone who isn't them or one of their close buddies in real life. I know why I'M here, but I don't know why they're here aside from finding an internet social club to pass the time in.
"Admittedly, that was a bad choice of phrasing on my part. I apologize."
"But I meant everything else I said ( except doxxing )."
And I still think you're overly sensitive.
"I asked 30 guys about what you yammer on about girls and orbiters and social media and hb8’s and the whole nine"
Excellent, some field data gathering! Now how often do they go out? How many <25yo 8+s do they have in their social circles and regularly fuck and try to LTR up past the NRE stage? How many <25yo 8+/10s have they made give up their social media and cut their orbiters out of their life for them? Do any of their <25yo 8+/10 girlfriends use their phone around them or have any social media accounts?
"He started like this ” @Blaximus @SJF @Sentient @Rollo ” Now, red what he said addressed to the names above. Thanks."
I just tag Rollo so he'll see it incase there's something he wants to chime in on. He knows I'm generally just talking to you guys because he doesn't get hyper-sensitive taking everything as personal attacks like you. I generally tag in the order of who I'm talking to (ie – if your name is first you're the main person I'm responding to at that point, the last tag or two may just be "hey, you might be interested in this part of the discussion"), that's why sometimes @Rollo is at the start and sometimes at the end or I tag the same person twice in a row with a name added for a certain part of my comment.
"Then…addressed directly to Rollo…"
That was so Rollo is aware of the hugbox being created here. There's a reason he gets 50 billion hits on his site but the comment section only has a couple new posters chime in and stick around per month.
"I’d really like your answer on this, because YaReally blasts people, and everyone feigns blindness in his support."
When everyone around you tells you you're too drunk to drive…
“I figure if this was the only place where a guy could go and vent about redpill shit, he would be careful about incurring The Wrath of the Old Boys Club”
It’s all just bluster to me. I’ve heard the exact same stuff from old guys in real life, they all think they’re the first ones to lecture us. And they almost always have the exact same inconsistencies and flaws in their logic and resort to “listen to me because I’m just wiser than you, I just AM”
“Just look at Andy. Guy was basically Blax’s son until he was seduced by YaReally with his slut-seducing skills (over the internet no less!) and started spouting all kinds of insolent, disobedient, mean…. WORDS. Only to be disowned by Blax as a consequence. A sad story really :(((((((((”
lol the funniest part is these guys fucking HATED Andy when he first started posting here. I remember that shit because I thought it was ridiculous how doggy-piled Andy was getting for just asking some simple questions about his marriage and talking about how he felt and these guys wanted him to shut up SO FUCKING BAD they gave him endless shit for pages and pages in multiple articles. I was amazed he stuck around. I think one of my first posts to Andy literally started with “I don’t know why these guys are all jumping on this guy” because I thought it was so absurd how much shit he was getting for saying “hey guys I’m not super happy in my marriage and I’m thinking about bailing…”
No room for any kind of discussion or relating to him or his situation or his feelings, just barraging him with lectures and trying to get him to shut up and quit wasting everyone’s time.
And despite how Blaximus has rewritten history in his mind to paint me as Literally Hitler who wants everyone to be single and nuke their relationships, I was one of the guys who was telling Andy NOT to nuke his marriage.
“Mitch wasn’t listening to me because I stayed out of the convo after my initial reply to him. I didn’t say another word to him.”
He won’t listen to any of you guys. Why do you suppose that is?
“Fathers who are not married to the woman are treated worse than husbands.”
My point is that you guys aren’t realizing how this has changed and where the trend is going.
You’re still picturing husbands being treated “worse than the wife but not totally zero rights in family court”. That was probably true in the past.
But open your eyes and look around at the world we’re in today, where women are ENCOURAGED to throw false accusations “for the sake of the kids” against their husbands in family court. There’s no way to be “treated worse than husbands” in family court anymore because husbands are ALREADY being treated as bad as if they weren’t married at all now.
Again these are rapid changes that come from the mainstreaming of false accusation culture as girls and their social circles and their family and their lawyers (“he’s going to do this to you if you don’t do it to him, trust me, easily-influenced woman”) figure out there’s no consequence to throwing in a false abuse/rape/etc accusation, false restraining orders (“I FEEL like he’s dangerous” etc) against the legally married father, etc
It’s a race to the bottom. Legally married fathers are now being treated EXACTLY LIKE unmarried fathers as soon as the wife is encouraged to pull the false accusation trigger. You are going to either lose custody or be given minimal custody or have to have a VERY good expensive lawyer to fight for any kind of custody EITHER WAY once she pulls that trigger that social pressure is now COMMONLY pushing her to pull.
“If married fathers have zero rights in anti-Family court, unmarried ones have …. negative rights.”
No you had it right in the first half of that sentence. That’s the disconnect. There’s no “negative rights”. Zero rights is the bottom. Married fathers now have zero rights in anti-Family court because of our pussypass false accusation culture. Just like unmarried fathers. That’s it. That’s the end of the sentence. It’s all hit rock-bottom. That’s my point.
Both men entering the family court are in exactly the same position as soon as she drops the false accusation in there, both men will lose custody of their kids and pay child support, except that one man will also be risking asset loss and alimony etc while the other will not, and the man not risking those things has less chance of ending up there because his girl feels dread/attraction longer since he hasn’t agreed not to leave her.
So you’re not really in any worse position as a father in a pLTR where you live with her, call her your wife, only bone girls on your business trips in discretion, etc (ie – a relationship that looks EXACTLY like Rollo, Sentient, Blaximus, SJF, etc except that you don’t have a scribble on a paper)
So you might as well go with the option that doesn’t include alimony and makes it easier to keep dread attraction stoked to have an easier time triggering her hypergamy which makes it easier to avoid her bailing on you and having to deal with the family court system.
Is this all men and all divorces right now? No. But again I’m dealing with the situation now compared to the past, and the way it’s trending for the future. It’s getting worse and it’s going to get even worse, not better.
So in my mind we might as well discuss alternatives now, because we’re GOING to have this conversation I’ve been trying to have. It’s inevitable. We can either have it now, while the drapes are on fire, or we can have it once the house has burned to rubble.
“But if you have a kid with her, you CAN’T next her”
I don’t get what’s so difficult to grasp about what I’m saying. No you can’t just bail on her and the kid entirely, obviously you’re still legally tied to the kid. But you CAN walk away from HER, removing affection, attention, commitment, everything that she gets from you as a woman, without losing your shit and paying alimony. That’s it.
And when you’re triggering her hypergamy by staying attractive to her, those things have more value to her that they don’t have when she’s lost attraction for you because you stopped doing all the things that made you attractive when you met.
This is basically playing a very calculated logical based-in-field-tested-evidence mind game between male/female brains, like playing a hand of poker. It’s saying “my cards are shit, but I know this person’s cards and if I can convince this person I have pocket Aces by following all this field-tested shit that convinces women I have pocket Aces, she’ll fold”.
That’s why I say all I’m doing is taking the red pill to it’s logical conclusion. But everyone loses their shit and panics about that…red pill until it’s risky and goes against their social conditioning. THEN suddenly we throw out all the things that we’ve field tested and Rollo’s written 5 years worth of articles about…those things only apply until it’s time to have a kid and then throw it all out and just follow the Blue Pill arrangement and just work 500x as hard to make that Blue Pill arrangement work.
All I’m suggesting is what if we just said “okay we know these principles work and are iron-clad…so what if we just keep riding those principles all the way to the end? What would that look like? If these things all cause attraction, and they’re the things we recommend guys do to save dead bedrooms and failing marriages in MMSL, then why not just do them the whole way through instead of ditching the script for half the movie and increasing the odds that the ending is shit? Why not just keep doing the thing that we KNOW works, all the way through the whole movie?”
“the second chain of marriage doesn’t lock you down MORE even though it is an additional chain”
I think it’s fascinating that the guys with way more money and assets than me are the ones who are like “whatever, who cares if I lose half my assets, have to pay alimony on TOP of child support, and end up living in the back seat of my car working 3 jobs”
I can’t relate to the mindset of “if I’m going to risk $100 on this bet I might as well bet my entire life savings on it” but playing poker with you guys must be one hell of a high-stakes game lol Do you guys bet your car and house on your poker hand because hey, you might lose some money anyway so might as well lose it all? That’s insanity to me.
If I get raped by the courts but in one case I end up with $500/month to my name while in the other case I end up with $2000/month to my name, I will take the $2000/month situation because I’ll be able to recover and rebuild my life easier. I can’t relate to the mindset of “well if I’ll only have $2000/month I might as well take this situation that increases my odds of failure (since it removes a bunch of the attractive things I was doing when I was single and makes it harder to keep hypergamy going long-term) and leaves me with $500/month for no actual benefit (since we’ll both be treated with zero rights in family court once she’s pushed to make up a false accusation “for the sake of the kids, don’t you think they should be with their mother”)”
Maybe you guys are just so badass UMC rich that you have so much money and so many assets that you don’t care, they can take half your monthly income and you’ll still afford to buy that luxury yatch you’ve always wanted, but I’ve met and read stories from a whole lot of Joe the Plumbers (aka the 90% I’m talking about helping) who end up working 2+ jobs and living out of a car or shitty bachelor pad while their ex and her boyfriend live in his former house with the kids, where asset loss and alimony makes a big fucking difference to their life and ability to recover from the divorce.
“Also, getting married doesn’t actually prevent you from running a non-monogamous pLTR”
If you sign a contract with me where I get half your shit and you have to pay for the lifestyle I’m accustomed to living if you touch a doorknob with your left hand instead of your right hand, I’m going to be significantly less worried that you’re going to touch doorknobs with your right hand than if we don’t have a contract.
And what happens when a woman KNOWS you won’t leave her? Well, ask the guys who proclaim their undying love to their one-itis how things go when a girl knows there’s no/minimal risk of you leaving her. Does that INCREASE attraction?
Again simple logic. These are STANDARD red pill accepted field-tested things, but we throw them out the window when it comes to marriage. Suddenly it’s BETTER to have outcome dependence and not stoke dread lol Suddenly we’re jumping through all these mental loops to try to rationalize that taking more risks is better than taking less risks and rationalizing that cheating in a marriage carries the same consequences as having a fuckbuddy in a pLTR.
Fucking mental gymnastics going on, all to avoid taking the red pill to it’s logical conclusion and riding it to the hilt.
The red pill is just a mental exercise for a lot of guys, a fun thought experiment. They aren’t comfortable with me even asking questions or proposing ideas based around taking the red pill past their comfort zone. Gotta shout me down for daring to ask “what would REALLY be the outcome of an ideal red pill scenario (teach men game in their early 20s, then they focus on their career till their 30s, then settle into a pLTR etc etc)”
“so you CAN actually get married and do that”
Sure, it just comes with MASSIVELY SEVERE PUNISHMENTS when it doesn’t have to, for no benefit.
“But you don’t have to actually PinV other girls (unless you want to) to maintain dread”
Sure, you don’t have to, just like you don’t have to in a pLTR either despite all these guys pushing the idea that a pLTR is you inviting a bunch of random fuckbuddies to live with you and getting them all pregnant which is retarded and has never been what I’ve proposed at all.
“YaReally’s response would be that IN ADDITION to the above being unmarried makes it easier to walk away, so you may as well have that additional advantage too – but if we accept the earlier premise that it DOESN’T make it easier to walk away when you have kids, then that point fails..”
Maybe this is the disconnect, guys are thinking too logical about this.
Which is more important: whether it’s actually easier for you to walk away, or whether SHE BELIEVES that it’s easier for you to walk away?
Why do girls lose attraction for a guy with one-itis even if he doesn’t marry her? Because even though he CAN walk away easily, she BELIEVES that he can’t, so he’s outcome dependent, which is unattractive.
Just like Blaximus can be in a legal marriage but his wife can still be worried he would walk out on her if she gave him too much shit (aka dread game).
It’s her PERCEPTION/FEELS/BELIEF that matter, not the actual legal contract.
But WITHOUT the legal contract it’s SIGNIFICANTLY easier for a guy to give off the subcomms of a guy who can leave than WITH the legal contract which makes him more outcome dependent…he can fight against that but he’s making that significantly harder to do for no actual benefit.
“YaReally – I’d really like to hear your response to this, because I finally feel like I’m getting a grip on the points and it makes a lot of sense to me.”
Hope it makes sense. People are getting caught up in the wrong channels of this. They’re forgetting that to a woman whatever she FEELS is reality. All I’m doing is saying “how about we create a system where we do the things that make it significantly easier to make her FEEL attracted and FEEL like you can easily leave and FEEL hypergamy being pinged with minimal risk to the man, instead of throwing all that shit away and make it much harder for guys to make her FEEL those things?”
And how she FEELS is what will determine whether you end up in family court or not.
So is it better to be in an arrangement where based on the rules of attraction that we’re studying here from Rollo and PUAs and MMSL etc that it’s EASIER to make her FEEL attraction for you and not FEEL like taking you to family court because she FEELS you triggering her hypergamy?
Or is it better to be in an arrangement with a massive (and increasing) failure rate, that we know based on the rules of attraction that we’re studying here will be more DIFFICULT to make her FEEL that attraction and FEEL her hypergamy being pinged and make the guy FEEL more outcome dependent which makes her FEEL less attracted to him which if it crosses far enough will make her FEEL like taking him to family court?
Why do we just stop following the red pill suddenly and needlessly make men’s job more difficult, instead of them just doing what’s been working and what we’ll recommend they start doing again when they come to us with a failing marriage? Without the legal contract it’ll be a lot easier for them to keep that attraction high (presuming they’re game-learned men who studied game in their 20s and vetted a decent baby mama etc etc (aka my premise from day one on this discussion) VS being some retarded ghetto dudes knocking up 20 baby mamas they haven’t vetted)
“being married gives you some benefits/status as the husband/father that unmarried men don’t get”
My argument is that in 2016 it DOESN’T. You get NO benefits the unmarried man gets. You get zero rights in family court because she will be pressured by EVERYONE to falsely accuse you to get the kids. Not all divorces right now, but the trend is worse now and will get worse as time goes on and more and more women do it with no consequences and all benefits.
Family court will shit on the man either way, so he might as well not also be risking his assets/money.
“– but is it empirically true that marriage doesn’t ADD to the burden?”
This is my point. You CAN keep attraction, it’s just significantly more difficult than it would be in a pLTR. Why do we teach guys pickup/game so that they can get laid and have girls in their live and keep relationships alive on Easy mode, and then when they want to have a kid we go:
“OK NOW SET THE GAME TO EXPERT HARDCORE MODE”
“What?? Shouldn’t I still keep the game in Easy mode? It’s been working just fine”
“NAW BRAH, HARDCORE THAT SHIT A REAL MAN TAKES RISKS”
“But, I’ll be increasing my chance of losing and the stats are showing that more and more guys are losing and–”
“BRO JUST BE HARDCORE LIKE ME I HAVE A SHRIMP COCKTAIL IN MY HAND FROM MY WIFE CUZ I’M A BADASS”
“well, okay what’s the benefit exactly? Easy mode seemed pretty nice, does Expert Hardcore mode come with some amazing benefit?”
“BRO DON’T ASK QUESTIONS FUCK YOU LISTEN TO OMGS WHY ARE YOU INSULTING US BY NOT JUST DOING WHAT WE SAY WITHOUT ASKING QUESTIONS”
“soooo there’s no benefit? Why don’t I just keep playing on Easy mode? The relationships YOU guys describe sound exactly like pLTRs (or a version of pLTR that I can CHOOSE to have, where I just don’t actually stick my dick in anything even though I have the option to)”
“HERE’S A VIDEO OF GUYS IN THE GHETTO THIS IS WHAT YOU’RE GOING TO BE YOU MAGGOT NOW DO WHAT WE TELL YOU AND THROW OUT EVERYTHING WE’VE BEEN TEACHING YOU ABOUT THE RED PILL”
(5 years later)
Guys guys, my wife won’t touch my dick and is threatening divorce and family court, how do I save this??”
“Just do all these MMSL red pill things”
“Wait but those are the things I was doing naturally when I was playing in Easy mode…”
“BRO WHY ARE YOU DISRESPECTIN US OMGS?!?!!”
Seems silly to me. Why not just actually follow the red pill and continue to do the things that we know work?
Any benefits switching the game to Expert Hardcore mode had have been destroyed by society demonizing fathers and pressuring women to make false accusations because there are no consequences for it only rewards and the word “wife” doesn’t mean anything to women anymore. Not all women and not all divorces, but the trend is getting worse not better and there’s no reason to believe it will get better. The drapes are on fire, we can have this conversation now or we can have it later.
@having a bad day
“do you understand that the court can give your ‘baby momma’ ALL of your assets? (instead of just ‘half’ in a divorce…) for child support ‘arrears’ … which you literally CAN’T pay?…”
“which the courts are more likely to do if you are a ‘baby daddy’ than a ‘husband’”
ARE they really any more likely to do it to you as a baby daddy VS as a husband who has false accusations of abuse/molestation/rape against him these days? Because that’s my argument, that women are encouraged to make those accusations more now and that trend will get worse, look how many women are throwing out accusations against Trump or anyone SJWs don’t like, we live in a culture now where if you don’t like a man or he makes you unhappy you can just throw false accusations against him and expect no punishment.
So really, objectively speaking, is a guy who’s a “husband” with false accusations of molesting the kids or being violent/dangerous to them etc against him really any better off than a baby daddy?
A husband who’s held up to the family court as a “great father” and “wonderful amazing man”, sure, THAT guy is better off. But if she was going to say those things about you, you probably wouldn’t be in family court to begin with.
Again not all divorces…YET. But again, where is the trend heading. Do we see more or less false accusations against men in 2016 than we did 20 years ago, 40 years ago, etc? Do we see it being easier or harder for women (and their peers/social circles/family/etc) to make those accusations stick regardless of evidence now compared to 20, 40 years ago? Where is that trend heading?
False accusations have become a very common weapon in divorce and in 2016 we live in a society that requires no real evidence to obliterate a man, his career, his reputation, etc with a simple accusation. Women run based on feels and are easy to influence “for the sake of the children” “he’s going to do the same thing to you if you don’t do it first you’ll lose your kids forever” etc etc
The drapes are on fire and everyone’s acting like the heat in the room is just because it’s sunny out.
“i agree with this… but is it more likely that she will trigger the ‘system’ if she is already a ‘single mom’…in a pLTR with you?… OR if she will have to ‘give up’ her social status as a ‘wife’ if she ‘makes the call’?… ”
Why wouldn’t you just call her your wife to everyone you know? Why is no one understanding this? Do you guys all walk around holding your marriage contracts and when you introduce the girl on your arm you have everyone you meet read the marriage contract?
You just call eachother wife and husband. Change your names and wear rings and have a wedding and hang up wedding photos and everything. She won’t lose any more social status than if you wrote your name on that piece of paper.
“bc presumably she had enough attraction for you to actually AGREE to the legal contract marriage”
She doesn’t have to be attracted to you to sign a legal contract marriage. Mitch wants to go marry this old chick that’s stringing him along, she’s not attracted to him but might marry him because it’s a sweet deal for her. She can bail any time she wants and cash in if he gets too repulsive to her. You don’t have to convince me to AGREE to accept a million dollar check lol
“Hate to bring the bad news, but zero rights is not the bottom. Negative rights – like, “You get to fight your child support case from jail through your lawyer because I put you there for contempt of court” do exist. ”
Same to you as I’m saying to habd in this reply: are those negative rights any worse than what a “husband” will experience when the court hears that he has a violent temper (sure there’s no evidence of it but look at her cry in court, don’t you believe women???) and she once caught him touching the kids inappropriately that one night even though he denies it you can just TELL he’s a sleazy pedophile you knew it all along didn’t you?
Seems to me like both of those guys are fucked.
And again like I say to habd, in a situation where there ARE no false accusations, sure the “husband” is probably in a better situation than the “baby daddy”.
But what’s divorce in 2016 look like? Are false accusations becoming more or less common than 20, 40+ years ago? Are accusations treated less or more serious as the FI takes over our culture? Does evidence matter less or more in 2016 in these accusations than in the past? Where are these trends heading?
“Anti-Family court judges tend to presume husband/father “guilty until proven innocent”, they tend to presume unmarried fathers “guilty until proven guilty”.”
What do they presume of the father who’s accused by a tearful shaking woman of abuse, violent temper, rape and child molestation? Because that’s what’s going to become more and more common since there’s no punishment for it and it increases women’s chances of keeping the kids. Unless someone can provide reason to think that women will start acting more and more benevolent and self-sacrifice for the happiness of a man they’ve lost attraction and gone War Brides 180 on…?
“until she started helping out at the Battered Woman’s Shelter and then she became much more contentious, much more prone to start fights, much less useful around the house. The mental atmosphere was toxic, and she was just dropping in to do volunteer work a couple of days a week, the average woman who gets checked in will ge the full brainwashing treatment. This is one reason for the false charges of DV that have pretty much become standard in divorce cases.”
Agreed. That’s my point. How much better off is a “husband” who’s viewed as an abuser who may be molesting the kids, than the “baby daddy” really? They’re both so far past fucked that being a “husband” didn’t really come with any benefit.
When the drapes are on fire is the fire likely to put itself out and knit new drapes? Or is the fire likely to just keep spreading? This search for alternative paths will happen now or when the house has burned down completely and I don’t have to convince anyone of anything because everyone will already be going “holy shit this is a nightmare what do we do about this??”
Is what I’m saying making sense to you and habd? The “benefits” that come from being a “husband” in family court are no longer “a husband VS a baby daddy”, it’s “a husband who has false accusations of rape/child-molestation against him VS a baby daddy”. THAT’S becoming and going to further become the norm. Weighing those two against eachother, I’d say there’s no real benefit to the “husband” label anymore.
In a previous era where men/fathers were respected and false accusations weren’t instantly believed etc, ya, sure, being a “husband” carried benefits in family court.
But now? I dunno, ask Trump how his campaign is going as the news floods everyone 24/7 with how talking about pussy is basically the same as having committed rape. How hard is anyone really looking for evidence before convicting Trump of being guilty of all these accusations? That’s 2016.
“By all means, figure out how to run a soft harem, or a pLTR, or whatever, but just bear in mind the game is rigged, the system is designed to capture each and every man who has his name on one or more birth certs as “parent”. It’s no accident that Social Security Numbers are routinely assigned at birth now.”
I’m aware. The plan I’m proposing is not based around trying to get out of supporting your kids or trying to get women pregnant and bail. It’s based around learning game in your early 20s, getting your career together, using your game skills to vet for a decent chick, then having a kid in a pLTR with the understanding that if you slip up or if she gets too much outside attention (2016) she may stray and you may have to enter a court battle (instead of keeping men blind to that possiblity) so they’re mentally prepared for it, but giving them a pLTR arrangement which stokes dread and is more likely to keep their woman attracted enough to not end up IN that court battle compared to the current system which is falling apart with severe punishments only for the men.
“To expand on my situation, when I got to RP, I was already really low in my life, depressed, fat, not getting laid, married with two kids, 10 years into a marriage, wife had not worked in 3-4 years essentially due to mental issues. I was running in the red on the regular with a few stellar periods of income, but on balance not sustainable.”
How much of that would have happened if you had a pLTR? Would you have let yourself get fat if you knew that you could bang that sexy waitress you buy your lunch from that flirts with you, guilt-free? Would you have been as depressed/frustrated and had as much strife/resentment in your relationship if you had been getting laid on the side when your wife stopped putting out? Would it have been easier to focus on your work if you got your balls drained by a cute waitress on a business trip now and then?
How depressed and stressed would you be if you were still in shape, getting your dick sucked by cute waitresses on business trips, still feeling like an attractive badass, and could just treat your wife like a great roommate you love and get along with (because you’re already having your sexual needs taken care of on the side, with her blessing and no guilt on your end), and if in the back of your head you knew that if things got bad enough, you COULD still “walk in five minutes flat” without paying alimony?
And how would those changes have affected your wife’s attraction to you? We know that down the road on your current path your solution was to basically mimic all of that and her reaction was to sit up straight all of a sudden…so what if you had simply not deviated from the red pill in the first place? What if you had done what you’re doing now, but from day one, and simply not stopped doing it?
What sparks and keeps attraction when you first meet is the same thing that sparks and keeps attraction when you implement MMSL/red pill 10 years into a deadbedroom…so why do we pretend like those same things won’t just spark and keep attraction if you just DO those things, the whole time, through the whole relationship?
A legal contract isn’t required to do any part of the MMSL MAP red pill etc plan that we give to deadbedroom failing marriage guys. And it will come with progressively less and less benefits in family court as I explained above. All it is is 100% risk on the man’s side, and it creates a situation where it’s significantly more difficult to keep attraction stoked (outcome dependence, deadbedrooms, rewards for her if she decides to pull the plug, etc), for no real benefit.
Props on turning your situation around in general btw lol
The point of my discussion is simply to avoid creating more of you in the first place (no offense). I’d like to see less and less men ending up in your situation and coming to us for help. Sure, we can bandage the wound, but why not teach men a course in how to safely handle a saw so they quit slicing into their arm when they don’t have to?
“I bet there are a lot of us lurking OMGs here. If they are anything like me, they want to hear more from yareally and less from argumentative posters.”
❤ Thanks for chiming in. I know you guys are here, just like I know there are lurker newbies here and lurker young single guys who are thinking about this stuff here. That's the only reason I keep writing this stuff. 'cause I was a lurker too back when I got into PUA and I was taking in a lot of information to think about.
I know I'll never convince these OMGs if I haven't by now, because they're either deliberately trying to not see my point or simply literally incapable of it (solipsism, OMG stubbornness, ego-investment, YaReally-hate, whatever lol)
It's 100% for you guys. I legitimately thought we could all have an interesting discussion about the topic and the OMGs would chip in their old man wisdom and we'd all brainstorm ideas and maybe start creating something that seriously changes the direction things are going in and gives men hope.
I simply didn't expect to spend 500 pages trying to justify why the topic should even be allowed to be discussed, to red pill men, who support men learning the red pill and learning game and increasing their odds and lowering their risks in every other area of life except this one.
Like I don't get why they can't even just not participate in the topic for a few posts so we can get some momentum going, or ask some questions. It's just instantly SHUT UP STUPID YOUNG GUY YOU'RE STUPID WE KNOW EVERYTHING ALREADY AHHHH!!!
It's like the very IDEA of it goes so hard against their conditioning that they have to immediately lash out the second the topic even comes up. It's fascinating, honestly lol Like posting about PUA on a feminist board or Trump on a Hillary board etc
“Have to remember in all this discussion about marriage vs pLTR that Parental Alienation Syndrome is a thing. Very vividly described by scribblerg awhile back, iirc. Search google for more details.”
Was scribblerg, a “husband” really any better off than if he had been a “baby daddy”, in terms of how that all worked out? I dunno, but I could make a pretty good case that he isn’t. He might as WELL have been just a “baby daddy” legally, and just done everything exactly the same…how much worse could it really get for him than the brutal situation he’s in with his daughter now?
“Just heard about PAS again in a case involving someone I know.”
“Which included that phrase PAS plus accusations of child abuse the ex-wife leveled not only at this guy but also the brother and their mother.”
This is what I mean, the benefits to being a “husband” have been taken away by the false accusation “men are bad” “use the kids as weapons” “believe the woman no matter what” culture where these shitty tactics that are becoming more and more commonplace…so is there really any benefit to being a “husband” anymore?
Like I say, in the old days where a man/father was a more respected position, maybe that “husband” label held more power. But in 2016? THIS is becoming the norm. Because why WOULDN’T it? There’s NO CONSEQUENCE ONLY BENEFIT for women to do this and for divorce lawyers etc to coach them to do it. It’s 100% beneficial to them, either it works and they get the kids or it doesn’t work and their pussypass gets them off the hook for consequences of doing it.
So why WOULD it get better instead of worse? Why wouldn’t the burning drapes spread to the carpet?
“they tell me about the pending divorce (she filed) and the games she is playing against him which included making it as difficult as possible for him to see their children.”
The way some guys talk it’s like they think being a “husband” will prevent this. It won’t. These false accusations and dirty tactics from the women and their lawyers (social circles, friends, family, internet advice forums, etc) have nothing to do with the label of husband. They have to do with attraction, once she goes War Bride on you, you are dead to her and her focus will be keeping the kids close.
So why don’t we stop letting guys think that signing up for the legal role of “husband” will give them any more protection than a pLTR, when a pLTR is actively triggering all the things that MMSL MPO “walk in 5 min” etc trigger when we want guys to save their marriage, except EASIER to execute with more incentive and less reward for her to leave etc?
“if a man wants children, he’s got to be able to game their mother. And be prepared to do it for years.”
Exactly my point. It all comes down to triggering her hypergamy.
We know from the field that it’s easier to trigger hypergamy when you’re inducing dread, jealousy, preselection, have reason to keep your charisma and social skills up, are getting laid if she’s not putting out, can be your own MPO with less consequence, know you have less of a saw blade dangling above your head in terms of alimony, have less outcome dependence, etc, because those are the EXACT SOLUTIONS we recommend guys execute to save their failing marriages.
So why not just run the red pill to the hilt instead of stopping halfway to change the game from Easy to Hard mode so we don’t have all these guys coming here asking how to save their failing marriages before they get divorce raped? Why not just have them keep playing on Easy mode so they keep attraction and don’t end up needing help or needing to deal with family court in the first place because their woman stays attracted?
“Now it’s women making false accusations in court.”
I only stress it now because I assumed guys here were aware that this is happening and the trend is increasing, based on either konwing divorced guys, reading their stories, or simple logic (a thing that benefits women with no consequence for them is a thing they’ll do more often).
It only sounds like I’m bringing it up out of the blue now because I didn’t realize you guys thought men were walking into family court getting high-fives while their wives talked about how amazing they are as fathers and husbands just like Angelina Jolie is praising Brad’s parenting skills and offering him as much custody as he wants lol
“We’re addressing the current facts on the ground right now.”
And as I’ve said numerous times where is the trend HEADING? Can no one extrapolate forward based on trends? No one has put forth any reason why the trends would 180.
“Kfg has said numerous ( more than I can count ) times that the plan won’t work unless you can change the LAWS.”
I don’t think either of you understand what the plan “working” would actually look like. I think the goal you think I’m putting forth is WILDLY different from the goal I’ve actually been putting forth, which is keeping women attracted long-term (to avoid family court) in the easiest way possible (VS purposely making it more difficult and increasing your odds of ending up in family court) while raising a kid in a 2-parent household (not skipping out on taking care of it).
“Go talk to 50 divorced guys with kids, then go talk to 50 unmarried guys with kids and child support. Don’t assume fantasy stuff, talk to dudes on the ground. I know I do.”
I don’t know the numbers but I’ve talked to a lot, and read personal stories from a lot more.
“I’ve asked 3 lawyers recently ( and I’m waiting to hear from one more currently ), and guys with normal or little assets don’t get killed with alimony. One lawyer said about 10% of men have to pay.”
Again I’m projecting where the trend will head. Are university campuses becoming SAFER spaces for men with regards to being accused of rape nowadays? Because 10 years ago people would say the number of men being accused of rape was low too.
“In fact, a guy came here during the debate and said exactly that.”
And plenty of guys have said they or their buddies/co-workers/etc got raped, and back up what I’m saying is happening out there, but you dismiss their stories.
“I don’t pay.”
Were you divorced in 2016?
“2 guys right here at my job don’t pay.”
Were they divorced in 2016?
“Every divorced man I know, save for 1 guy, does not pay alimony.”
“But as a man that knows actual real, living men dealing with child support”
Why do you think that I don’t? My peers are mid-30s dude. My peers are actively dealing with these things in the modern era.
“the state is HEAVILY biased against baby daddys”
I agree. But it’s also heavily biased against men who have false accusations laid against them, which is becoming more and more common.
“unless they have 6 figures to hire an army of lawyers and spend years and years in courts.”
The same thing a legal father falsely accused of abuse/molestation/etc needs.
“There is no way to minimize the risks in the fashion you want to do”
Again I don’t think you understand what the fashion I’m trying to minimize risks is. You guys keep getting caught up in “BUT TEH KIDS WILL PUT U IN TEH SYSTEM IF UR GOAL IS TO LIVE OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM” My goal is not to live outside the system, my goal is to increase the odds of avoiding family court by keeping attraction stoked by having men continue to do the things that first attracted their wives to them, without increasing their risks and outcome dependence in areas where they don’t need to (not avoid all risk entirely forever completely which is a fantasy strawman version of my position that you guys have made up).
“The risks rise as a baby daddy. PERIOD.”
My argument is:
1) the risks for fathers are rising to the point where they’re just as bad off as a baby daddy as the trends continue down the road, because none of you have given a reason why those trends would 180
2) a pLTR naturally triggers the Hypergamous attraction that MMSL/red pill/gaming in general do, while monogamy and legal marriage create outcome dependence and make it harder for a man to keep triggering her Hypergamy, which means that a pLTR is less likely to lead to being in said family court because if done right, their girl stays attracted
“guys that haven’t been divorced, or even married ( except for my man Andy ) are the one’s that are in agreement”
Want me to point you to a shitload of red pill, PUA, Manosphere, etc threads by guys who’ve been divorced/married that agree with me?
“who have experience, know actual divorced people, know men in the CS system”
Why do you keep thinking I don’t know any of these men? (just kidding, I know it’s because you’re trying to pull rank and discredit me, it’s incomprehensible to you that a guy who’s younger than you could have any kind of world experience)
“Without changes in the system/laws, most guys that attempt to do what you propose will be thoroughly fucked in the ass, while thinking they’ve beat the odds by avoiding the legal noose.”
Without changes in the system/laws, most guys that attempt legal marriage/monogamy will be thoroughly fucked in the ass as the trends continue, while thinking they’ve beat the odds because you gave them the hope that their wives will bring them shrimp cocktails if they just make them delete their Facebooks.
“But given the lack of a legal marriage between the parents, establishing those rights and enforcing those obligations become infinitely more complicated”
It’s infinitely more complicated compared to a legal father. Is it infinitely more complicated than compared to a legal father who has an abuse/rape/molestation claim against him? I didn’t see that in the text you quoted anywhere…
Again you are equating “legal father” with “good upstanding dude who doesn’t get falsely accused in court” and pretending divorces where women have lost attraction to their husbands aren’t full of false accusations.
“Once more for emphasis –”
Should I quote the dictionary definition that feminism is about equality. How does that hold up in actual execution in real life?
“Court is a bad way to fail.”
Agreed. And a woman who’s attracted is less likely to take you to said court and viciously try to destroy you compared to a War Bride who’s lost attraction for you and/or resents you.
So why do we have men enter an arrangement that makes it significantly harder to keep their woman attracted long-term instead of having them just keep doing what works and what we’ll prescribe to them when they fail anyway?
Seems like common sense to me.
“You know there are still courts and witnesses and testimony and perjury and all…”
Ask Nungesser, Ghomeshi, Cosby, Trump etc how those things are working out for them.
“And that dampens Upside.”
What upside? You can still have and raise offspring without playing on Hard Mode.
“It also incorporates masculine self improvement in addition to enlightened self interest.”
So does PUA. I’ve explained this a thousand times and I can link you a dozen PUA videos about masculine self-improvement. This is just you trying to muddy the waters again and create separations to make yourself feel special like you’re running some super top level game when you’re just doing the same thing as everyone else.
“Being married doesn’t give you Hand.”
Being married makes it actively harder to KEEP Hand. So why don’t we just have men keep doing the things that make it easy for them to keep Hand, which keeps triggering Hypergamy, which keeps their girl attracted, which keeps her from taking them to family court and nuking them?
Again, seems like common sense to me.
“Lets just try to squash the conversation and send men back to what we know isn’t working instead of attempting to help work through issue at hand”
Agreed, that seems like a solid recipe. That’s how we codified PUA after all, we said “look bro, you either have it or you don’t” and Mystery didn’t go out because people who knew better than him knew it couldn’t be done since they hadn’t done it before.
Fully would’ve expected this pushback from Jezebel, but not from a red pill forum that talks about red pill parenting and values 2-parent household stability for children etc lol
“Not being “legally” married is not a cure for this any more than being legally married…”
Of course it is. This is what I mean about you guys not running the red pill to the hilt when it conflicts with your FI-conditioned beliefs.
If preselection causes attraction before you get married, it causes attraction after you get married. If you agree to monogamy you have less reason to go out and continue getting preselection and she knows, because you agreed, that she doesn’t have to really dread losing you because you made a legal agreement not to leave or she gets a bunch of cash and prizes. So you are more likely to not have that preselection attraction.
If outcome dependence causes a loss of attraction before you get married, signing up to give her cash and prizes if she’s unhappy gives you more outcome dependence because you will be risking shit (that you didn’t have to risk) if things don’t work out. So you are naturally more likely to have outcome dependence.
We can go over EVERY tool in the attraction toolbox for how and why marriage makes these things inherently harder for men to accomplish to prove that YES, not being legally married IS more of a cure for it than being legally married.
This is more common sense.
“it is bad information and false hope that magically because you have theoretically lower costs to leave that somehow this will equate to keeping attraction”
You will have less outcome dependence. Literally the solution whoever it was responded earlier who turned his shit around said was that he decided to mentally shift to no more outcome dependence (being willing to walk away in 5 min). A non-legal non-monogamous agreement makes that an easier mentality to keep than a high-risk legal monogamous agreement.
Common sense and all based in field-tested agreed-upon principles that even Rollo has written about.
You guys just throw away all the red pill shit we’re talking about the second it hits some unknown territory for you lol
“The difference is important because in courts of equity you have far fewer constitutional rights — almost none, really. That’s why family courts operate largely in secret, have almost entirely sealed records, routinely hold hearings “ex parte”, don’t ever use juries, rarely, if ever, issue reasoned opinions and so on. It’s a separate legal system where the constitution basically doesn’t apply for the most part, in practice.”
Agreed. That’s why I say: a guy with a false abuse/rape/violence/molestation claim against him by his ex-wife who’s lost all attraction for him (and has possibly even built bitter resentment, again War Brides mechanic Rollo’s written about) is just as fucked as a baby daddy.
Against an upstanding father guy in a fair court where his wife is singing his praises about what an amazing father he is, sure, the legal father is better off. But which way is the trend heading in terms of how much we value men/fathers, how much we trust men, how much evidence we need to believe women’s accusations, and how much punishment women receive for accusations?
Am I just Nostradamus? Am I the only one who can see the future based on trends and logic? lol “IT’S 10% NOW SO IT’S THAT FOREVER AHHHH!!” lol okay let’s see how that short-sighted moment to moment mentality pans out. Not sure I’d trust a General that says “THERE ARE NO ENEMY SOLDIERS SHOOTING AT US SO WE WILL NEVER BE SHOT AT, DON’T BOTHER THINKING NEGATIVE THOUGHTS LIKE HOW TO AVOID BEING SHOT JUST WALK UP THE MIDDLE OF THIS OPEN FIELD STANDING TALL GENTLEMAN!” to lead my troops though.
“Personally I don’t think we will see many changes here until such time as many more women get bitten by the system by being the provider role that the system chews up and spits out.”
Agreed. That’s why I’m working on changing men’s overall strategy to adhere to red pill principles instead.
@having a bad day
“so how is losing ALL your assets (even those that you got before your pLTR started, and doesn’t include any of HER assets in the calculation…), better than losing half of your assets that you got since the marriage started (which also would include any assets she had earned as part of the calculation)?… that makes no sense to me logically… and if that’s some type of strawman argument point it out, bc i really don’t get the advantage to a pLTR WITH kids in play…”
1) “Child support arrears” means: “When a person who is obliged to pay child support fails to meet some or all of that obligation, a debt begins to accumulate and the amount owing is called the payor’s arrears of child support.”
You can be in child support arrears whether you’re a legal father or a baby daddy. This was a false equivalency dishonestly put forth that makes the assumption that a baby daddy would be in child support arrears while a legal father would not. I’m not describing ghetto hood baby daddys knocking up a dozen baby mamas (which seems to be some people’s view of what a pLTR is lol). I’m talking about red pill men who have their careers etc together and want to settle down with one baby mama in a stable 2-parent household that looks just like any other marriage except a legal contract isn’t signed.
and 2) as I’ve explained a bunch of times, a pLTR naturally triggers Hypergamy in easier ways that a legal monogamous marriage hampers and makes it more difficult to trigger, which means you’re less likely to be IN family court because your woman is more likely to stay attracted.
“how is having 18 years of ‘alimony’ (through child support awards), which automatically attachs, better than having a RISK of some alimony possibly awarded if the marriage fails?… again, i’m really not seeing the benefit…”
Same answers as above. That legal father is still going to have to pay child support and risks paying alimony (potentially LIFETIME alimony). Neither guy should be having a kid if he’s financially unstable.
“yes… but that’s actually a great analogy… a ‘normal’ baby daddy is seen at about the same level as a husband accused of molesting the kids… it’s actually worse if the baby daddy is also accused of molesting the kids… but that would never happen, right?…lol”
How much worse can it get than zero? A legal father who’s accused of molesting his kids is going to get the same bottom of the barrel treatment that the same piece of shit that a baby daddy who’s accused of molesting his kids is.
They’re not going to go “you know what, you touch your kids and beat your wife, and if you were a baby daddy we’d take your kids away forever, but because you’re the legal father we’re going to give you full custody” lol
“1) you are legal contract married – the court knows bc it’s in all the paperwork – so you are ‘just like the judge’… trying to ‘do the right thing’…”
Don’t forget the false accusations. My argument that I’ve said over and over has been that accusations are becoming a part of our “divorce culture”, it’s becoming a common tactic and will continue that trend because there is no punishment for it, only reward (getting the kids and then asking forgiveness from the father later if she feels like it).
I agree that an upstanding legal father who’s an amazing father will be better off than just a baby daddy. But my point is that the “upstanding legal father” is more likely to get false accusations laid against him for her to get the kids just like Hillary is busting out all the false accusations against Trump to try to make him look bad to get what she wants. She knows there will be no real consequences, so why WOULDN’T she do it? And why would this trend self-correct?
“in which case do you think the judge is even going to try to be fair?…”
Ask guys who’ve been falsely accused of molesting their kids how fair the judge tried to be with them lol
Again I agree and have agreed from the start that a legal father who has a nice fair trial is better off than the baby daddy, just like a guy getting married used to be respected as the man of the household instead of viewed as Homer Simpson. Just like having kids used to be a goal for <25yo's but is now becoming an inconvenience to them. Things change.
"there is NO case (being in court fighting for your kids) where being a baby daddy is going to be better for you than being a ‘husband’"
My argument is that they're becoming the same zero/negative results. Unless you want to get into a discussion about whether it's better to be in jail for 5 years instead of 4 years but I think at that point we should all just give up and MGTOW lol
They can only take all of your stuff and make you pay everything you have. A judge will take all that shit from a father molesting his children just like he'll take it from a baby daddy molesting his children. It's all a shit-sandwich at that point.
"but that doesn’t seem to be the case when kids are involved…"
Again it comes back to: what do we recommend to first attract women? And what do we recommend when guys need MMSL to save their marriage? The EXACT THINGS I'M RECOMMENDING GUYS JUST DON'T STOP DOING lol
There's this HUGE disconnect of FI-conditioning where guys think "ok that stuff is cool and all when you're single, or when you need to save your failing marriage, but you should get married to have kids anyway instead of finding some other solution that won't involve you coming back here in 10 years asking for MMSL that will teach you to do EXACTLY what I'm saying to do now and what you were doing to first attract her"
"we HAVE been having that discussion you wanted to have…"
lol we're nowhere close to it yet. This is all just trying to justify why we should even have the conversation that I've actually been trying to have. This is just the warmup, it's like I have to explain why I should tie my shoelaces when I expected we would be at the gym going for a run by now.
"that pLTR is the same thing… the 'structure' of the pLTR (not being legal contract married) isn't what triggers all that stuff like pre-selection, etc… it's the underlying SUBCOMMS that the man has/exhibits… regardless of the legal structure (looks) of the situ…"
Agreed. All I'm saying is that a guy who is living the freedom of a Tyler lifestyle has a hell of a lot easier time keeping those subcomms that make him stay attractive to his woman, than Steve the Banker who sits at home watching Netflix ('cause why would he go to a bar, he can't DO anything, even if his wife stops putting out or gets fat, that's just teasing himself with blue-balls) and can't remember how to talk to a girl and is scared that if his wife gets jealous she'll leave him and take the house.
"that are going to be difficult to resolve, because you essentially end up in “my anecdotal experience” vs “your anecdotal evidence”."
It all comes down to this:
Do MMSL and the concepts we learn in PUA help keep a woman attracted? Obviously.
Do marriage and monogamy naturally make it more difficult to do those same things? Obviously, or we wouldn't need MMSL and there wouldn't be deadbedroom forums.
So which is more likely to end up in that family court: a man who's woman stays attracted to him long-term, or a man who's woman loses attraction for him and goes War Brides resentment on him?
Just the natural extension of the red pill. Why does everyone think they should stop doing what's working and enter a system that makes it significantly harder to do what was working? lol
"Except that being a no-good, Peter Pan Manboy, babydaddy is viewed worse by the sort of UMC law students who tend to become anti Family Court judges."
Sure, but take how a child molester father is treated in family court and ask yourself how much worse could a baby daddy be treated, even one with a false accusation too? They can only take away all your shit and lock you up, it's not like they're going to put bamboo shoots under the baby daddy's fingernails. Both guys are going to be royally fucked and lose their kids and have their lives financially ruined etc.
So why not take the option that's more likely to keep them from ending up in family court because when done properly (and my argument is that we should be training men to do it properly, not leaving them to become ghetto Jerry Springer cases) it keeps attraction stoked, and warn men that if they lose attraction they'll have to fight a family court battle (and teach them how to run Easy mode properly so they have less chance of losing attraction)?
"Ditto false accusations of child abuse, rape, etc. There’s nothing to stop a live-in GF from doing those exact, same things."
Agreed. But they can only take away your kids, money, assets, and lock you up. Which is about what that judge will do to a father who he's convinced has been molesting his children. It's all rock bottom, so why not take the route that's more likely to keep him displaying the subcomms that keep her attracted to avoid that judge?
Again comparing a legal father in a fair court with no accusations against him to a baby daddy, ya, the legal father is better off. But that's not the system that's building steam and that's not the way the trends are headed. A false accusation has no consequence and gets you the kids, so why would that NOT become a more and more common tactic?
“Recall that even if unmarried with kids gets screwed worse in family court if it goes to that, it may still be better to be unmarried with kids if that makes it easier to avoid going to family court in the first place (because hypergamy is better satisfied etc etc.).”
This. You get it.
“Hypothetical: if you go to family court with kids, you are screwed whether you are married or not. Maybe you are even 10 or 20% more screwed if you are unmarried? But imagine that being unmarried gives you a 30% bonus in not getting to that state in the first place, that would still be a worthwhile trade-off for most men.”
Exactly. I’d argue it’s higher than 30% and I’d argue that a woman who bails on a pLTR hates you infinitely less than a woman who bails on a marriage where she’s gone War Bride on the guy…I know which woman I’d rather face in a family court lol
It’s like we go “here buddy, here’s a bunch of cool attraction stuff that will get this girl in love with you…now sign this legal agreement that makes it WAY HARDER TO DO THAT STUFF…what, she lost attraction for you? That’s okay, just do this MMSL stuff that’s the exact same stuff you were doing before you signed that legal agreement except now she gets cash ‘n prizes and you have to play extra hard because she’s been incentivized to ditch you, instead of just not entering that agreement in the first place so that you would naturally be doing the same cool attraction stuff that first attracted her and attracts her when you run MMSL and will help keep you from family court”
Doesn’t make any sense.
“to cut to the chase, just imagine SJF as a judge in anti-Family court.”
Do you think SJF as a family court judge would treat a man who he’s convinced (because these are Blue Pill “listen & believe when a woman cries victim” judges remember) is MOLESTING HIS OWN DAUGHTERS, SNEAKING INTO THEIR ROOM AT NIGHT TO TOUCH THEM AND MAKE THEM SUCK DADDY’S LOLLIPOP, any worse than he’d treat a baby daddy who’s accused of the same?
No, he’d treat them both as horrible as he’s legally allowed to, and as established earlier the legal stuff is “flexible” (wink wink) in family court. Both guys are completely fucked.
My argument is that the “false accusation against the man to win custody” trend is increasing, which neutralizes whatever benefit being the legal father used to have before this became a common tactic (and will continue to become more common, because why WOULDN’T it? It works and there are no consequences for the woman).
“Vancouver, Canada has a fairly new law that simply states if a man and woman live together for some perios of time, they are to be considered married. End of story. Boom. I think it’s 2 years, but am not sure.”
Again this can be handled by 1) informing men OF those laws (which is why I was pissed that no one gave a shit that Big Al didn’t even look up those laws when his justification for getting married was “well they’d consider us married eventually anyway”), 2) either skirting around them (break up before the deadline and get back together later), and/or 3) do the very minimal (according to I think DisgruntledEarthling? can’t remember, someone laid out the legal costs of handling this kind of stuff) legal work necessary to have a contract that excludes you from the commonlaw rule. ANY guy could do this, IF he was properly informed ahead of time.
“The status on paper may lead to zero rights, but it does not yet lead to negative rights,”
My argument is that with the false accusations that are increasing, it will lead to basically the equivalent of those negative rights.
And again I fully agree that a legal father in a fair legal trial with a fair judge and a fair ex-wife who doesn’t use any dirty tactics on him will be better off than a baby daddy. But that isn’t where the trend is heading. People do what works and what has no consequence for them. That’s WHY girls use calling the cops and claiming abuse as a threat. It works and has no consequence for them. The trend will get worse, not better, there’s no reason for it to reverse.
“But if you can keep hypergamy satisfied in an unmarried state then you have enough Game to keep hypergamy under control in the married state as well.”
No, I’ve explained this a bunch lol Is it easier to have the subcomms of a guy who’s attractive to women when you’re ACTUALLY FUCKING OTHER WOMEN or when you’re committed to monogamy? Is it easier to be unattached from the outcome of how an interaction goes when that person can press a button and nuke your life or when your losses are less? Like, I can go down the whole list again lol this is all basic red pill attraction stuff.
This is like guys saying “if you can enjoy working at a pillow testing factory where you take a nap all day, then you can enjoy working in a coal mine” lol One is objectively more difficult to do than the other.
@Sentient @Anonymous Reader
Okay Sentient, I’ll do the necessary 1 minute of research for you:
“Is there any way for common-law couples to avoid sharing family property?Drafting a legally binding co-habitation agreement allows common-law couples to split family property differently from the 50/50 split provided for in the Act.”
once more for emphasis:
I didn’t realize “doing proper research” is considered “fantasy games” now.
“And they also ignored – not a single comment – the laws on the books in many states such as NC that allow YOU as a husband to sue a guy who has an affair with your wife.” “Not available to baby daddys btw.”
lol wtf are you talking about? Is your argument for marriage seriously: “if your wife gives so little fuck about you and what a pathetic loser you are to her that she sucks a bunch of dick in a bar bathroom, you can sue that guy for whatever millions of dollars that guy surely has”? lol Really reaching for positives here dude.
“Pretty much anything about custody or child support in a pre-nup will be ignored”
Agreed, pre-nups in general get thrown out for basic crocodile tears all the time lol Again the point of this is not to avoid paying child support if things fail. The point of this is to optimally trigger hypergamy to avoid ending up in family court with a crazy bitch who hates your ass falsely accusing you of shit because she’s gone War Brides on you, by not putting yourself in a situation where it’s harder to keep attraction.
“So, if wanting children weren’t at the heart of the pLTR debate, would anyone even consider it?”
Lots of men who like the stability of having a Primary. I personally don’t care for it, but I have buddies that love having a regular girl that they build a long-term relationship with, but still want variety on the side and understand that agreeing to monogamy is playing dangerous outcome dependence and one-itis games VS still having a reason to regularly go out and keep your flirting skills sharp and keep her feeling minor dread/jealousy and staying attracted.
Plus if you screen for a girl you can bang other girls with, going out “threesome hunting” with your Primary or banging her friends with her or having playthings for the two of you etc, can be pretty appealing for a guy kids or no kids lol
I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain this lol…
“I’m officially an empty nester as of this year and I can tell you right now that were I to find myself single or widowed tomorrow I would never consider a pLTR nor marriage in my lifetime.”
You’ve had enough “LTR” for one lifetime, so that’s understandable. But other guys haven’t had 20+ years marriages like you and find “LTR” stuff appealing (even if it’s just having someone to regularly cuddle up with during the cold winter months without having to keep them at a distance to avoid them falling for them, or to have someone to reasonably reliably provide sex while they focus on business/school, etc etc).
There’s lots of reasons guys want a main regular girl. And there are a rare group of guys who only want one girl at a time…but a lot of the guys who SAY they only want one girl at a time only think they want that because they don’t know HOW to get more than one at a time and have that work because it’s all outside of their reality since they haven’t tried it yet (just like in my AFC days before PUA I just wanted one girl to cuddle up with, but now that I CAN get variety I know that I’m happier having it).
“Would you consider a pLTR if future children weren’t a factor?”
Have you NEVER wanted to get head from some of these bottle models you hire that flirt with you? Like you have a woman at home so your dick just doesn’t get hard when one of them looks you in the eyes and slides her 21yo titties across your chest? lol But then also been happy that you have someone at home that you know well and are building a future with?
Again I feel like this isn’t something I should need to explain lol…this is just basic male needs 101.
“If I were to consider any kind of relationship, I wouldn’t want a ” primary ” anything. Imo, the entire idea of being ” free ” eliminates being tied down in any manner to 1 woman, if I am understanding the pLTR concept correctly. I don’t see the point in that.”
“So I have been struggling with the pLTR’s supposed ” benefits ” throughout the discussion.”
This is your guys’ solipsism in action lol Lots of guys want a primary girl for various reasons and haven’t had 20+ years of LTR stuff like you guys. I don’t like having to go to family dinners or hang out with her friends or live with a chick or have to text or plan dates or travel with someone etc, but lots of guys do like that stuff lol You guys have had more than enough of it so you don’t need it anymore is all, but there was a point where you wanted some stability too or you wouldn’t have ended up settling.
“Also, it’s been put forth that the pLTR is somehow a ” logical ” conclusion of being RP aware.”
A pLTR naturally executes everything that we accept as red pill principles that keep Hypergamy pinged and maintain attraction in women.
Deviating from executing those red pill things, or voluntarily making them harder to execute, is illogical because it makes it more likely that the man will stop pinging her Hypergamy and lose attraction.
All I’m doing is saying: “take what we do to attract her, and what we do to save a failing marriage, and create a relationship structure that naturally executes those things the whole time, instead of sabotaging yourself once you have her attracted by making it harder to do those things and more likely to lose attraction”
Again seems like simple logic to me.
It’s like if I said “okay, do all this PUA stuff to get her attracted, and then on the Day 2 supplicate to her and bring her flowers and don’t tease her and tell her she’s pretty and if you do attractive stuff there’s a 50%+ chance she’s going to punch you in the face.” and then everyone is shocked when the girl doesn’t fuck him and the guy needs help (MMSL).
Why didn’t we just tell him to keep doing the things he did when he attracted her and not set up an arrangement where he would have a hard time continuing to do those things? aka the logical extension of the red pill, running it to the hilt instead of stopping halfway and needlessly increasing the difficulty of executing it.
“Did you check out BD’s latest post about non-monogamous mariage?
Very timely hehehe”
Blackdragon has come to the same conclusions I have because he understands how attraction works and can look at things objectively instead of emotionally where, objectively, following the princples we all know and love about pickup and attraction, what we’re saying makes blatantly obvious sense. And he’s not even really factoring in social media culture or Hypergamy helping turn an oLTR into a pLTR in that explanation.
And his first paragraph of that article is spot on. 😉
Busy right now so I don’t have time to get into a thing but catching up I lol’ed hard at @Blax getting BTFO in that other thread asking guys if hot girls have orbiters expecting everyone to go “no, YaReally is making shit up!!” lol…you know why you don’t know any Blax? Because you don’t regularly mack and fuck <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 and hang out in their social circles and see their phones and social media accounts etc Which is EXACTLY what I said: the guys who disagree with me are the OMGs who aren't going out and fucking and/or trying to monoLTR these <25yo 8+/10s in 2016. You see them for an hour and think "WELL THAT CONCLUDES WHAT LIFE IS LIKE FOR THEM 24/7" or you observe the Daddy Goggle glimpses of your daughter and her friends' lives (because your parents knew all you secrets and the secrets of all your girlfriends growing up I'm sure lol), or you pick them up and fuck them for an SNL for a few hours and don't try to LTR/date them because you have wives already (from a previous era).
You don't actually spend your weekend holed up in your apartment (or going OUT in public places or around her friends or to social events etc) with a <25yo 8+/10s in 2016, hanging out and watching their phone blow up all weekend on the nightstand beside your bed and going through their texts with them as they show you what you're competing with.
And if you married OMGs DO actually fuck them, like Sentient with his business trip stripper, you're not monoLTR'ing them, you're not getting them to delete her social media, you're not doing ANY of the keyboard jockey nonsense you lecture young single 2016 guys on.
Even the guys in that thread that blew you out on the orbiters question were blowing you out bringing up chicks over 25yo or 7/10s and under etc as their examples (aka not in the <25yo 8+/10 zone I've been talking about since the start, because they're still not approaching the smokeshows they see 'cause they don't feel entitled yet, but they'll get there if they keep sarging and stepping their shit up HINT HINT fuckers lol)
When guys are actively going for the LEGITIMATE <25yo 8+/10s in 2016, the in-demand young hotties out there, they'll find exactly what I've said about them having offers and rich dudes and celebs orbiting them offering them free vacations (often sexless) and just endless free shit or massive incentive (financial or otherwise) offers to fuck them etc And they'll see exactly why some of those guys get the girls and some of them don't, just like I've explained in-depth a million times. Guess how I know this shit.😛 One of my FBs was offered $3000 to pee on a dude the other week…hint: she's not some busted up 35yo 6/10 lol
"1) If men were to do this in mass, it might just modify the behavior. If this became a ” thing ” or a movement."
It will do nothing. Men will not do this en masse, there's too much thirst and women have too many options from a globally connected world for it to matter if you walk out (and because texting isn't rude to <25yos in 2016…you OMGs think it's rude, just like people from the 1800s would probably think me eating with my elbows on the table is rude, no one gives a shit anymore and you walking out because she puts her elbows on the table won't make her put her elbows on the table it'll make her and her friends lol at what a control freak you are because no one cares about elbows on the table in 2016).
The only way your walking out affects her is if you have insanely high-value to her, just like a backturn/freezeout in set doesn't work unless you have high-value to her. Society has created a feedback bubble where the second you walk out, everyone she texts to tell that to will convince her that you were actually low-value.
If you had high enough value to her that this tactic would teach her a lesson, she wouldn't be ON her phone in the first place, at worst she would be apologizing profusely for having to respond to the text from her dying grandmother and worrying that it'll mean she loses you. The scenario you guys recommend a guy walk out on is a scenario that only exists when that guy doesn't have enough value for her to give a shit that he's walking out.
It will modify no behavior, it will teach her no lesson, and it's not applicable on a large scale etc This is just fantasy LARP'ing Manosphere guys like to do because they don't really understand these dynamics because they aren't out actively sarging <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.
"2) At least the man will remove himself from the situation."
Like I said at the start of the screening discussion: your advice (screen out any woman who uses social media or won't get rid of all her social media and orbiters and delete her grandma's pics on her Facebook and have all her friends worry about why she's not allowed to have social media in this controlling abusive relationship) will simply result in NO MAN reproducing and men en masse (trying to apply your advice) dying without passing on their genes…or men reproducing with 3/10s.
Because EVERY <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 will check her phone on a date. You don't understand this because you don't fuck date or try to monoLTR <25yo 8+/10s in 2016. Your advice was great 10+ years ago, maybe even 5 years ago. Now it's just denying reality.
Softek put it well:
"I think what Ya’s saying is getting misinterpreted as Doom and Gloom but I feel like he’s just reiterating it over and over again because a lot of guys genuinely don’t believe that the world is like this today, because they’re not experiencing it."
Like Trump says (he's gonna win btw), we can't address a problem if we can't even name it.
@Forge the Sky
"What I noticed was basically the face of YaReally staring at me as I gamed. Big surprise :p"
lol like I say, I don't push keyboard armchair theory, I just report what happens infield when you actually push these things and thoroughly test them. When guys finally DO that, they find exactly what I'm saying.
"HOWEVER, good looks are a passive DHV, so when no-one was saying/doing anything I’d catch her staring at me. It’s a good thing to have ’cause it’s always on and takes no effort."
And I don't disagree and never have (and I'm not saying you're saying I do, I'm just re-iterating my point because I have to keep doing that until the looks/money myths are shattered and we can get guys focusing on what actually causes attraction). From the start I've said as long as no one and nothing interferes and the guy doesn't have super shitty game, he'll do just fine passively relying on his looks.
But PUA isn't about being passive because being passive means you're still limiting yourself to the selection of women who pro-actively choose and engage you, which won't be the 9/10 surrounded by 4 AMOGs who are as good-looking or have 8-packs to your 6-pack, it'll be the ballsy drunk 5-7/10 who cops a feel and tells you "wow I love your arms" and most guys will fuck her because it's almost last call and they're too scared to approach that 9 surrounded by good-looking AMOGs because they don't DO it so they don't know HOW to do it, and then they'll either drink till she's cute or wallow in self-loathing in the morning and think about that 9 they WISH they had approached, etc
PUA is about being PRO-ACTIVE, which makes any advantage looks/money give pretty much insignificant. It's not that they're BAD, they're just EXACTLY what you stated: "Basically, looks make a difference but only in the same way that other DHV’s do." Which is what I've stated before: Looks and money are just standard DHVs, like any other DHVs, and they aren't even the most powerful DHVs in terms of sparking legitimate sexual attraction (dominance, preselection, passing shit-tests, etc spark that shit harder than an expensive suit).
Which comes back to what I said way back in the looks war: Looks and money are not equal to game, game is the toolbox, looks and money are simply tools inside that box with no more actual value than any of the other tools (ways to DHV).
But guys don't understand this until they spend significant amounts of time infield *IN* mixed sets competing with other guys, better looking guys, uglier guys, richer guys, poorer guys, Naturals, PUAs, AFCs, tall guys, short guys, charismatic guys, boring guys, etc etc etc and actually DIRECTLY compete with these guys for hot girls. Because 99% of dudes just find their comfort zone (get jacked, wear a nice suit, then post up at the bar and go home with the 7 that approaches them while making excuses NOT to approach the 9 across the room who's flirting with the cool jacked high-value bartender, they won't go NEAR that shit let alone try to get her), and stick to it and never actually push themselves infield.
They do that over and over for years and convince themselves they're pimps when they KNOW when they're sticking their dick in that girl they ACTUALLY took home, that they're PICTURING the 8+ they didn't approach to help them get off before they start calculating "now how long until I can throw this girl out because waking up beside her in the bright sunlight will just remind me that I fucked another average 6" and the self-loathing builds.
Know how to spot a guy who's consistently fucking 6s? He's the Manosphere guy who complains about the game and has that bitter chip on his shoulder about it and isn't actually enjoying sarging lol Because every time he sarges he just reminds himself that he isn't stepping up to the type of girls he actually wants and the field just shoves that in his face, so sarging becomes full of pain-bodies and shit for him.
Push your comfort zones and everything I say will make sense.
@Lumpy❤ Lumpy and I don't know eachother at all and he does all the achive work out of his own generosity, all I do is mash letters on my keyboard like a retard until something semi-coherent comes out.
Also before I vanish:
@all @Culum @Hank @Forge @Sun @etc
Halloween is coming up, literally THE sluttiest time of the year with not just NO consequence for girls to be slutty but MASSIVE SOCIAL PRESSURE to BE slutty, and you can open EVERY chick with the EASIEST opener in the WORLD built into the holiday: “Hey, I like your costume” (or in my case “lol wtf are YOU supposed to be?” lol)
This year Halloween falls on a Monday so the hotties will be costumed up Fri, Sat, Sun, and Mon. That’s 4 nights in a row of slutty costumes and girls letting their sexual sides out consequence-free.
Not even to actually GET those girls (OMGs don't have to cheat on their wives lol), but just to see some of this "crazy shit" I talk about in action.
More importantly than the OMGs though: this goes quadruple for the Young Single Guys sarging because this is their annual chance to push their comfort zone and gain reference experiences under EXTREMELY IDEAL circumstances with odds stacked MASSIVELY in favor of those 9s and 10s that might normally have bitch-shields up, being receptive as fuck to engaging with strangers since they're in full attention-whoring mode. Even if you're ugly or old just say "my costume is a creepy old man who hangs out in bars hitting on 21 year olds, under this I'm actually a 21yo 6"4" jock with a 6-pack" lol
Just like you should normally be flirting with hot bartenders and waitresses because they're PAID to be receptive to you and that builds reference experiences in your head of "I AM attractive to hot girls, that bartender loved me she stayed and kept asking questions way longer than she had to and we lasered!!", and you should always engage birthday/engagement parties because they're going to be receptive to you and that builds "I can handle groups of girls, girls love me! Also I'm learning group theory and seeing all these things Mystery and YaReally talk about!", this is like EVERY SMOKESHOW HOTTEST GIRL IN THE ENTIRE CITY being an easy reference experience for you to collect.
I expect to see a fuckload of "I approached actual 9s and 10s holy shit!!" FRs around here from Halloween weekend lol I don't care if you even fuck them or not, just get into interactions with them. APPLY all this shit you've been reading about. Go UP against the 300 Gladiator AMOGs for the 10s and actually USE what you've been learning all year (DHV, tease, step to the side so she's not facing him, push, pull, merge the set, use another girl to make her jealous, etc etc).
You HAVE the knowledge, you've been reading it all year, or for multiple years, and Halloween is THE easiest environment to apply it (every city becomes an overall Vegas mindset for the weekend). Every guy here HAS the knowledge to PULL AND FUCK <25yo 8+/10s who have thousands of orbiters and celebs and rich dudes and shit chasing them. Drag your ass out for at LEAST one of those nights, but ideally man up and do all 4 nights and try to push every set to an actual pull ("What are you doing later?", see Julien's free clips on YouTube about asking determining her logistics)
This is that "push your comfort zone" shit I talk about. You can go out every night for a year straight and not make any real progress if you aren't actually pushing your comfort zone out there…but spend ONE weekend getting up in the space of 9s and 10s and actually interacting with them on the night they're most receptive, and you'll do a fuckload of wonder for your internals and sense of entitlement. Don't become another Manosphere chode that spends 10 years banging average girls and becomes bitter about the game when he's really just secretly resenting himself for not stepping up to the smokeshows.
OMGs in this thread confusing “had a conversation with a girl who didn’t look at her phone” and “went on a couple dates with a girl who didn’t look at her phone on those dates” and “my daughters put away their phone for a few hours when I’m around” with “monoLTRing a girl for multiple years past the NRE stage” lolol
When one of you OMGs monoLTRs those girls and they voluntarily stay off their social media 24/7 for you, for years past the NRE stage, you can tell us about how your **KEYBOARD ARMCHAIR THEORY** works in the actual field. 🙂
“So taking YaReally, is he just better at coddling our fragile egos, or does he better get how steep to make the learning curve at different stages of progression? Is this because he has more free time to dedicate to this, is it because he used to struggle? Note he still busts on the “student” and pushes for action (see @Scray a few years ago).”
This. Most of these guys haven’t taught newbies and most Naturals have a solipsistic view of the world where they struggle to relate to guys who didn’t have the same advantages they had, and don’t even understand they HAD advantages because they can really only relate to their own world. I can tell about where a guy is in game by his writing, his questions, and his Field Reports so I calibrate and my advice overall is for the general newbie and what he’ll be able to actually pull off infield and setting him up on a progression toward internalizing the deeper concepts that the “just be yourself” guys think I disagree with no matter how many times I say “I agree, it’s good advice, but that’s not applicable to the average guy en masse and you aren’t teaching it in a way that they’ll actually be able to learn and get to that stage”.
“I remember laughing at a Leykis 101 rule where Tom said something like if a woman you’re on a date with insists on looking at her phone or takes a call or is texting you should casually excuse yourself and leave her there to pick up the tab. I used to think that was harsh, but I understand the sentiment that makes it necessary today. Women can’t learn what men wont teach them.”
lol it’s not a “drastic experience” to them in 2016, and no message will be sent…the only message that will be sent is the message they send to their friends as you leave, which will say “lolol this guy just walked out on me because I replied to your txt lol wtf” followed by all of society reassuring her that you are a butthurt manbaby control freak insecure abuser with a small dick and she is a princess who deserves better and should post about you on her social media so everyone can make fun of you.
Texting on a date isn’t “rude” to this generation and future generations. Texting is a normal part of their life. This is the equivalent of a girl walking out on you because you ate with your elbows on the table and she considered that rude. You would LAUGH at her and give zero fucks because no one cares about that shit anymore. You wouldn’t start making sure your elbows aren’t on the table, or chase her hoping for another chance, you would write her off as retarded, ESPEICALLY if you had a dozen other girls agreeing with you.
10+ years ago when she had less options, even 5+ years ago maybe, this was fine, just like taking $10 away from a person with $50 might teach them a lesson…but taking $10 away from a billionaire will teach them nothing. All this move does now is show her that you don’t spend time around <25yo 8+/10s because you don't understand their world, the world where texting is normal behavior and people who won't let them text are insecure control freaks.
You MIGHT DHV enough in the couple hours you've spent with her in total for her to see you as worth more than $10, but she will still think you're being irrational and all of society will still be agreeing with her that you're being irrational and the fact that you're even walking out is lowering your value.
You gotta understand how tight the bubble has been wrapped. Society has created the perfect delusional bubble for them to live in where the man is always wrong and they're always right (until they hit wall-age and even then it's a battle for them to really feel the "drastic experience" and learn a lesson). The INSTANT you do something unsual, she pings her friends to see what to think about it, and they will rationalize her as right and you as wrong without even knowing any of the details because that's 2016 culture.
Pick your battles…txting or taking a call a date is not a significant battle. You will never get rid of all her incoming communication no matter how high-value you are now, learn to handle it. Don't walk out because she answers a couple texts because you won't be able to just keep walking out every time someone in the next 40+ years txts her and she's not going to delete all her social media and turn her phone to airplane mode all day when she's living with you.
Instead just learn to handle it, understand that texting is a normal part of a <25yo 8+/10s world and shrug it off and play-scold her for it and then AMOG her orbiters and how lame their txts are or AMOG other guys about how insecure and jealous they get when a girl texts because they don't understand that a hot girl has people who text her all day and she's not going to ignore her friends for some dude she's been on a couple dates with etc I can almost 100% GUARANTEE you she'll go "OMG I know right?? There was this one guy who–" and will tell you a story about some guy who got butthurt that she answered some txt from her BFF who TOTES had an "emergency" and she NEEDED to take the text, and he got all crybaby and walked out and you will both laugh at that guy together.
If she txts non-stop ignoring you or answers a casual phone call and talks for 20 min, cool, go ahead and walk out on her to save your pride. But understand that it won't actually DO any of this Braveheart rally cry "we'll change society by walking out on women who text!" fantasy shit that sounds super cool and rallying in writing but it just LARP'ing, because if she's ignoring you that much on a date anyway, she ALREADY sees you as too low value for you walking out to be a "drastic experience" to her or to "learn" any lesson from it. You will literally just be CONFIRMING to her that you are low-value…she will give less than zero fucks and probably just tell her GF to come join her so they can eat drink and laugh about you together.
Welcome to 2016! Where Soft Nexting is significantly more difficult because for a Soft Next to work you have to first have value to her and having value to a billionaire is tougher than having value to someone with $50.
Now if there was some system or relationship arrangement that would boost your value significantly, like being a guy who gives her massive emotional impact (including the FULL rollercoaster of emotions, aka including BAD feels), triggers dread, jealousy, preselection, outcome independence, ability to walk away easily, being your own MPO, having abundance and other options/competition, etc, you can increase your odds of having enough value for a Soft Next or walking out to have a chance at working…hmmm, sounds like things a pLTR does to me lol
"If I was a pussy I would have just sat around all day complaining about my circumstances and not going out."
lol this. Ignore the hating. You've done more with your shitty situation than most newbies ever would. The guys giving you shit aren't guys who've trained newbies before and seen just how many guys would do 1% of what you've done and give up completely waiting for easier circumstances.
Now WHEN you get to a better city, if you aren't getting your dick wet, sure, I'll give you hassle. But right now anything you do is building basic skills that will help you transition smoother into gaming in a better city with girls you want to fuck. I fully expect a landslide of poon when you get let loose in a better city regularly, all the signs are there that you'll kill it.
Will give your FR a breakdown when I get free time, busy as fuck this week and just skimming the article now but wanted to comment on the Leykis thing because it's a good example of how things have changed in the last 5-10+ years and how the chessboard has shifted because of these changes.
“so like….Sentient telling you to delete the numbers ISN’T bad. he’s trying to reinforce an ABUNDANCE mentality with you.
not only that, but he’s trying to get you to focus more of your efforts on that initial interaction. IF you KNEW that your ONLY SHOT was to HOOK HER at the initial meet, MAYBE you’d do better. ”
Right, and I totally GET that. And I’m sure Hank gets that too. This is the same as the marriage thing where the OMGs are like “DON’T EVER THINK IT CAN EVER FAIL OR YOU’VE ALREADY LOST”. We GET what they’re saying, and support that mindset.
But hank has given no real indication that he’s holding back and aiming for a phone number or ejecting his sets thinking he’s going to close on the Day 2 instead. You guys are painting him with a bunch of negative traits and sticking points that nothing in his FRs really indicate he has. He KNOWS it’s better to SDL instead of go for the number and Day 2, he just doesn’t have a dozen lays under his belt where he knows HOW to be sexual yet.
It’s like you guys are giving him shit for “holding back” a part of his skillset that LITERALLY DOESN’T EXIST YET and probably won’t exist until he’s fucked a handful of girls that he’s actually attracted to. You guys have BEEN laid so if YOU were doing his same FRs, you WOULD be “holding back” that part of your skillset, but he’s coming from a place where he’s had basically zero sexual interaction with women in his LIFE.
He KNOWS his only shot is to hook her at the initial meet, but before he learned that he collected some numbers, so he’s just shooting off some txts to see if he can turn them around WHILE STILL GOING OUT AND TRYING TO SDL lol
If his FRs were like “it was going great and I thought about bending her over in the nearby bathroom but decided I should get her on a good Day 2 instead so I just grabbed her number and walked away, I’m sure I’ll get the lay on the Day 2” then ya, give him shit. But he’s just talking about some numbers he happened to have collected before he realized numbers are wood. Literally every newbie goes through the stage where they collect a bunch of numbers and then find out they all flake and learn “oh okay, I should SDL them instead, this is retarded” lol
Give him tools/encouragement to SDL, but going on and on about how he has to delete his numbers or else he’s in scarcity is just overreacting. There’s no harm in shooting some txts out and seeing if he can turn things around, we’ve been doing that since the early PUA days. As long as he’s still going out and trying to get SDLs, which will take him a while because he has NO FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR BEING SEXUAL WITH WOMEN YET (aka he’s not HOLDING BACK, he literally doesn’t HAVE the thing that you expect him to just have by default, just like I’m not holding back on buying a hamburger when I don’t have money in my wallet, that’s not me “being cheap”, that’s just I literally DON’T HAVE that money to spend yet…once I get paid, if I’m refusing to spend it then ya I might be being cheap).
Hank is probably not going to develop/experience massive sexual intent until he’s sarging girls that make his peepee go badoingdoingdoing. Even if he runs into a smokin hot girl right now, it’s after 2 hours of walking around by himself in a shitty city completely out of state, not at some nightclub where he’s in a pumped up killer social state with a couple drinks in him and buddies cheering him on and a dozen smokin hot girls around him to practice on.
He can make progress, like he’s learning to consciously spike legitimate attraction and he can work on lasers and shit and start feeling sexual tension and learning that shit. But he’s working with a massively disadvantaged environmental situation. It’s like telling a virgin why don’t you show more sexual intent in this retirement home lol