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The Best Of The Rational Male โ€“ Year 5

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via Rational Male

    on September 6th, 2016 at 2:40 pm
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    “Especially with Ya Really trying to convince the older men around here that having an alpha frame is not enough to keep an under age 25 girl HB 7+ loyal with all that exposure she has had to social media- FB,twitter,Linked-in,Tinder etc.”

    “Monogamy” in 2016:

    She keeps her orbiters because she “can’t delete Facebook that’s how I keep in touch with my family!!” while the guy gives up his options. SIGN ME UP!! lol

    on September 6th, 2016 at 9:29 pm
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    “YaReally—-chime in here….I think the point is still not setting in.”

    lol you’re on your own with him. I’ve already wasted enough time going down the SJF rabbit hole for one lifetime.

    But in general you don’t have to use stuff like Facebook, Twitter, Tinder, Instagram etc, but it helps to know what they are and the basics of what they’re for and they’re great for networking and arranging events and shit if you’re running social circle game (which I believe walawala does).

    Like it’s a lot easier to pick up a hot bartender when you understand when her shift probably starts/ends, what kind of guys she hangs with, what sort of relationship she probably has with the other staff and customers because of the dynamics in her industry, what level of discreetness to use VS a girl in another line of work, what sort of time is optimal for a Day2 with her (probably not gonna get her out on a Friday night lol), being able to share/tell stories about idiot drunk customers and stuff that she’ll get because that’s her world.

    A lot of pickup is about relating to people and making them feel like they can relate to you…just like selling things, you’re more likely to make the sale if you and the customer both have a sports interest in common and shoot the shit about the big game last night bonding over it and relating to eachother.

    So when you can tease a girl about being on Tinder and comment on the hordes of orbiters you know she must have on Instagram it shows that even though you’re 10+ years older than her, you still “get” her world.

    ’cause a guy who IS regularly banging girls her age is just GOING to know about some of that stuff. He might not use it himself (I don’t), but like, if you spend a lot of time around hot young chicks, you’re going to know what Snapchat from just being around their culture lol

    So a guy who’s like “what’s a Snapchat?”, it’s not a nuke or anything (I play up the confused old man who thinks their trends are retarded all the time, but I’m charismatic and sparking Attraction so I can do it), but it DOES show that you’re proooobably not a guy who spends much time around hot young girls which subcomms low social value and negative preselection that you’ll have to overcome by making yourself relatable in some other way. Plus less chance of triggering “my DAD always asks what Snapchat is TOO ew gross it’ll be like banging my dad” vibes lol Makes them view you as younger too.

    “Your premise is that if I want to interact with the younger crowd”

    lol no his premise is that if you want to FUCK the younger crowd, and actually put your penis inside their vaginas and thrust away. Not “interact” with them. Walawala is FUCKING young hotties, you are sitting on a couch listening to them talk about school. You don’t have to know anything about social media, that’s fine, it just means that your advice on gaming girls should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    “She can’t actually utilize the bulk of these options”

    I probably can’t spend $5 billion dollars in a day, I could spend let’s say $1000 in a day. But my perspective on money and my purchasing decisions while having $5 billion dollars in my bank account even if I’m only spending $1000 of it will be very different than someone with only $1000 dollars to spend in total.

    “but what I am saying is that most of these options are not real.”

    Girls’ hindbrains don’t understand that.

    “Names on a screen type options.”

    James Franco was a name on a screen and contacted a random nobody girl. Stories like that tell girls “I may have a path to getting high-value men through these names on a screen option”. That’s all their hindbrain cares about.

    “The other thing is that there are a million dudes on social media with ZERO game skills.”

    They don’t know that until they interact with them and those guys fail shit-tests and fuck the vibe up. YOU know it, *I* know it, but their hindbrain doesn’t know it until it takes enough bad beats.

    “White Knighting Beta Nice Guys. They are options. Jobless, ambitionless, lifeless scrubs….options.”

    All of those guys look like high-value options to her hindbrain when they put up a pic of them in front of an expensive car and flexing their 6-pack and talking about how much ambition they have for life. She has to interact with them to find out that that car was their parents’, the 6-pack was photoshopped, and that they have no job and just spend their day laying on a couch watching TV instead of being ambitious.

    They don’t put up profiles saying “hi, I have no job or ambition or life, I’m a scrub, date me!” Each of those highlight reel false advertising profiles is a chance to escape a boring life living on a budget in a little dumpy house with an old beat up car stressing over bills with Joe the plumber they married who she’s been fighting with lately as her newly divorced BFF tells her about all the exciting guys she’s meeting on Tinder (because she’s LYING to her to make herself sound attractive still lol)

    “Question: Is it even possible to short circuit all of the tech chasing bullshit they engage in?”

    Can I convince you to never look at or go near your rose bushes (or hedges or whatever lol) again? Maybe, but I would need a pretty compelling argument when all you see to them is upside and you’ve been engaging with them your whole life.

    Could I convince you to never work out again? Or can I convince you to never eat another vegetable or steak ever again? All you can eat now is oatmeal for the rest of your life. I don’t have any real reason for it except that I don’t want you to do it even though all your friends eat that stuff and have you over for dinner and ask you why you don’t eat that stuff etc

    That’s the thing of it. WE know social media is ultimately bad for people and bad for them and bad for the LTRs they’ll want to try to make work. But all THEY see is the upside of this stuff, because it IS upside for them, it optimizes their hindbrain’s ability to find the best survival/replication candidate.

    How much value would I have to have to you for you to give up working out and eating meat and going near your rose bushes to have me in your life?

    “I’m still cornering women and interrogating them about their social media habits and the likelihood that they can be convinced to put down their devices. It is still very grim looking.”

    No surprise lol Like I say, the field reveals all.

    “Addiction is never attractive imo.”

    It’s not. But imagine you’re in a world where everyone has blonde hair. But you like black hair. 99.99999% of women all have blonde hair…there might be a couple women here and there in some backwoods town that you’ll never visit with black hair, but all you see around you is blonde hair.

    As a guy who’s already married with kids and settled down and out of the game, you see that situation and go “well just don’t get into a relationship with any of those blondes then, blonde hair just isn’t attractive imo”

    But the single guys around her who are looking to get to where you are, with a successful LTR and kids, can’t ALL get the 0.00001% of women that have black hair. They HAVE to deal with the blonde hair. By advising they just don’t settle with a blonde, you’re saying “don’t EVER settle with ANYONE, don’t ever reproduce”. That’s not an acceptable answer lol

    How many girls have you run into in your quizzing who don’t use ANY social media at all? ANY?

    “The she asked ” why is life so hard, so boring, so sad. so meaningless?”. Shit.”

    Welcome to 2016. lol This is what we’re working with on a grand scale.

    “She said guys were extra boring and very random”

    “Extra boring” means she’s surrounded by chodes and AFCs and guys with shitty game that supplicate to her and bore her (aka not PUAs that give her the full range of emotions). “very random” means the alpha guys she DOES like just pump n dump her and don’t call her back or bang other girls and don’t want to commit etc. Because she’s not dating/fucking the 80%, she’s dating/fucking the 20% (now the 10%) and those guys have access to the 90% so why would they settle for one girl, especially when she’s miserable inside and looking for someone to fill the hole in her soul for her?

    “The complaint was that she is not finding or feeling ” Love ” or ‘ Loved “. I asked her to describe what she would have to feel to feel love, and she could not adequately put it into succinct wording ( surprise!! ).”

    lol All she knows about love is what she’s seen in movies or been socially conditioned to think about how important it is. Like I say, laser eye-contact is extra killer now because a girl like her may LITERALLY have never had a guy hold deep sexual eye-contact with her in her LIFE. She’s seen it in Twilight and shit and it looks amazing but she’s never met a guy who can actually DO it because she’s surrounded by chodes. And when she’s in public everyone is on their phones not interacting. In the old days people had to engage the people around them or at least be looking around and guys weren’t as socially crippled as a whole and she probably experienced lasers a few times. But now she could make it to adulthood without ever experiencing it.

    “She wanted to know about physical contact outside of the bedroom,”

    This is an interesting one that I’m noticing keeps coming up. The last few girls I’ve been with have been shocked at how I’m all about the PDAs. The guys they dated before me would rarely touch them in public or lead them or anything and they wanted it bad but the guys were uncomfortable.

    ’cause we have a society of guys uncomfortable with their sexual urges and nature, scared to be “too controlling” and leading and guiding her by the small of the back and scared to be “too possessive” throwing their arm around her and scared to treat her like an ojbect/possession they “own” etc etc Just shitty social conditioning.

    “and how much conversation I engaged in with my wife and if I found peace and satisfaction.”

    lol ’cause the chodes will listen to her hoping to fuck her but they’re the “extra boring” ones she was talking about so who cares, and the alphas she actually WANTS don’t give a shit what she says, which is why she wants them, but again they don’t commit to her or take her seriously etc

    “Now fellas, I SWEAR that I was not hitting on her what so ever.”

    Hashtag humblebrag lol But seriously, you’re giving her the full range of emotions hitting her to her core, you’re making good eye-contact (I assume), you have charisma, you have preselection having a wife, you’re teaching her about the world like her daddy never did because her single mom kicked him out, you’re building deep comfort/rapport with her, you’re engaging her with 100% zero outcome dependence completely giving value instead of looking to take value or take anything from her…

    I mean, what do you EXPECT to happen lol

    “She said that the vibe was something that she had been looking for in guys.”

    I can guarantee it’ll involve eye-contact.

    “The eye contact”

    Yup lol

    “and the touch ( I do not recall ever touching her. I gotta see the store security tape )”

    You probably didn’t and she just fantasized it, or it was just such a casual thing you didn’t think anything of it. But to her it would have been something that NO OTHER GUY IN HER LIFE would have the balls to do probably.

    “Amazingly, she says that she longs for touches from a man engaging her in interesting conversation outside of the bedroom.”

    TOO BAD SHE’S PROBABLY BORING AS FUCK TO TALK TO lol That’s always the funny part to me. Girls want deep conversation but then they know like surface level shit at best and get lost when you go over their heads. Like okay you’re having fun but I’m just talking to a child here lol

    “She said that this was causing her very high levels of frustration with men in general. When guys try to talk with her, she just starts to tune them out a bit until they say something worth listening to.”

    Because guys don’t understand how to spark Attraction. They try to go right for rapport/comfort without getting A2. That’s why Julien with his crazy offensive shit and Jeffy’s Bill Cosby roofie your drink opener force her to pay attention, because they’re making an emotional impact on her.

    “So I said ” I like your shoes ” and she replied ” See!! That’s the stuff I’m talking about. Forget my shoes!!! Lmao!!!”.”

    lol this goes back to the social media thing walawala was saying…this shows that you understand her world and makes you relatable to her. Like she instantly knows you’re a guy who “gets it” and gets her world so you become more of a prospect to her.

    “” ALL of my stuff?”. Yup, I answered. ” I’d seriously consider that if I could be happy, but it’s a lot to ask “. I’ll take that as another ” no “.”

    lol This girl just went out of her way to ask you about love and if you could offer the chance to have it to her she’d still need a 100% guarantee that she’ll be happy 24/7 for the rest of her life to consider your “a lot to ask” deal fair.

    Wanna slip a ring and your finances and custody of your kids on her finger and try walking THAT tightrope for the next 40 years? lol

    “So the social media conversations are ongoing, but It still looks like YaReally is going to wind up being correct.”

    Now how could I know this stuff……….lol Like I say, all this shit is out there for anyone to go see for themselves.

    “Buuuutttt…. there’s more to this than just orbiters and dudes on a screen.”

    Oh god, ya, there’s like a million little factors involved in what’s going on. I’m just bringing up the most obvious blatant part of the shift…I mean look at the uphill battle I’ve had in just getting THIS reality to be accepted around here lol no reason to go into deeper more subtle issues going on.

    “So I will continue talking to chicks, but I’m going to concentrate on the 8’s and 9’s in the age group YaReally is addressing. I wanna see if I hear a pattern of some sort, and whether I hear the same old stories over and over.”

    I’m glad you’re out there testing this stuff instead of just keyboard jockey theorizing. But I weep for how your soul is going to weep for society by the end of this experiment lol You were such a bright-eyed bushy tailed Natural a year ago. ๐Ÿ™‚

    “Lol. But brah, I have been hearing a lot of ” I can get my own/don’t need no man controlling me ” rhetoric before. I got a deeper convo and she was aware that I wasn’t trying to peel her out of those ridiculously tight, ripped jeans she was wearing.”

    lol good luck convincing Sentient that you’re not a social retard imagining things that aren’t there according to his theories.

    “Have you ever taken a girls phone and put it in your pocket? Do you know you can do this?”

    Have you ever kept a 2016 <25yo 8+/10s phone in your pocket for 40 years?

    "a pet peeve notation that old married guys are not infield as recognized by the bar/nightclub crowd as being infield"

    Some of them are. Those guys come to the same conclusions we do. Some of them are not. Those guys argue what happens infield because they aren't infield. Just because Elon built the Tesla doesn't mean that I pretty much built it too.

    Also interacting with girls with no intent to fuck them or keep them around long-term VS intent to fuck them or keep them around long-term can alter the interaction dynamics and that needs to be accounted for.

    "Dude….asking them about social media implies a lack of knowledge…You’re already showing your age."

    lol he's not trying to fuck them don't worry. You might've missed his original posts about his experiment but he's not trying to seduce them, he's trying to do some research into what I've been saying about how social media has been a normalized part of a girl's world. Like he WANTS them to teach him about it.

    "My point is you have to KNOW this stuff…just “get it”… You have to demonstrate a mastery of the technology."

    Well, you technically don't as Blax has just shown. It's just that it helps. Blax found another way to make himself relatable to the girl and demonstrated enough value through his confidence, eye-contact, voice tonality, no outcome dependence, etc He wasn't approaching her as the dad jeans guy.

    "But… you have to be across this stuff. You have to be plugged into popular culture because they are."

    Right, the 50 Shades of Grey thing is a good example. You can sexualize in OTHER ways, obviously. But it's a really easy "in" to being relatable to her and her world if you can drop a reference to something like that, the same way it's easier to get a how bartender if you pitch your Day2 for a Tuesday late at night because you know she probably won't work that night and she's going to be on a night schedule, not going for coffee at noon with you.

    It's not mandatory, but it can help.

    "I don’t get this hate on so many older guys have for social media."

    I get the hate because I hate it too lol But I also love it for the good parts of it, like being able to stay connected with my friends and shit easier.

    My point in bringing it up at all is just that guys learning game today need to understand how and why these things change society. I'm not talking about like, the effect Tesla cars have on girls or the effect being able to order products online instead of going to a store to buy them has on girls, because those things don't really cause any significant changes. But giving a girl Instagram and Tinder from age 16, that CHANGES some shit. Guys need to be aware of those changes so they can adapt their game (like at the end of the last comment section (Losing My Religion) where I get into how I've had to adapt/change my text game the last couple years).

    "@Rollo @Sentient, I’ve seen it. Alpha is a state of mind Corey appears to have lost."

    Like most Naturals, Corey still had the Blue Pill socially conditioned ending as his goal. All the old guys here are psyched for him though and expect it to work out, right? The kid was the most Alpha kid in the universe at one point, so he should have no problem!

    "I’m not feeling the massive orbiter fear thing."

    You're not trying to fuck them and keep them around for 40 years. ๐Ÿ™‚ You listened to that girl's sob story and it tugged on your heart strings and for a second or two she may have even convinced you that if you could really truly give her the things she said she wanted, she'd give up her social media forever for a chance at happiness.

    But the reality is once the NRE wears off she'll dust off her accounts. There's a reason those social media sites don't actually DELETE your data, they just deactivate it so you can reactivate it later. They know how human psychology works.

    "I’m sure if I’d invited her for coffee she would’ve went. But her flirting on a 1 to 10 scale was a 4. Lol."

    Remember that thing about other problems/changes in society going on? The more and more commonplace situation of young girls being socially awkward and not knowing how to flirt or interact with men well anymore is one of em lol Some of the things I've seen girls do that they think are "sexy" or will attract men that make me shake my head…where do I even START the list lol

    on September 7th, 2016 at 10:17 am
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    Thanks for all the shoutouts btw Just happy to have helped other guys the way PUAs selflessly helped me (directly or indirectly) back in the day. Just payin that shit forward.

    “All of a sudden my page blows up and I’m getting all kinds of likes and comments. Pretty fucking cool.”

    Now imagine literally ANYTHING you post, no matter how stupid or meaningless, gets a barrage of positive validation like that, from hot girls too. You take a pic of your toothpaste tube saying “time to go shopping!” and get 50 Likes and a dozen girls (with profile pics that make them look like 10s) saying “OMG YOU’RE SO FUNNY LOLOL” and guys saying “BRO UR HILARIOUS! WE GOTTA GRAB BEERS SOMETIME MAN!” just making you think you’re the specialist special that ever specialed and you’re like “I wasn’t even trying to be funny!! I don’t even know what they think is funny in that, wow I must be a comic genius!!”

    Pre-social-media no one would have given a shit, your mom would say “ok I’ll pick some up on my way home from work, anything else you need?” But now you’ve had the validation above multiple times a day since you were 16. What would your internal beliefs about yourself and scarcity/abundance mindsets look like?

    “I recently watched the LOL episode of Californication. Where Hank doesn’t know shit about lingo like “LOL” and he busts this girl’s ass for saying it. Just completely rips her a new one. Of course they end up banging later after he recalibrates from being an over-the-top asshole without provocation or play from her.”

    lolol I love that episode.

    @walawala give Californication a watch if you haven’t yet, it’s a good example of being an older dude who knows the bare minimum about current trends and just makes fun of them instead of embracing them, and the general frame that helps pull that off (“you’re just an analog guy in a digital world, aren’t you”). Hank is a great “cool older man” character to model as you age.

    These are cool older men, both of these actors are almost 50 in real life so keep that in mind when you watch the show:

    Compare that to a lot of guys their age and it’s not even about the looks but about the ENERGY. These guys walk talk move and act like they’re still young mentally. Like two mid-20yo’s could have that same conversation and it would seem normal. They’re still “old” and “out of touch” in that they make fun of younger chicks and their silly shit, but their characters at least understand their world which makes them relatable.

    “The real shit always goes down in-person, naturally. But at least a couple times I’ve used some racy and funny memes to prime the pump. It can plant a seed to get them thinking of you in a sexual way. It’s fun, too.”

    Ya, I’ll send relationship/sex related ones, like a chick sent me this:

    So I sent it to other girls. It’s funny and relatable (and shows that I “get it” VS a guy who’s never had a relationship or been around women and wouldn’t understand some of this humor, so it subtly shows some preselection and understanding HER side of relationships) and subcomms that I’m just looking for a casual thing because I wouldn’t link something making fun of LTRs if I wanted one, etc etc All without having to text a word.

    I do a lot of “this is you” texts too, where I’ll throw a funny/sexual/crazy-girl meme at them that relates to an in-joke we have about something she does to spike her temp.

    It’s just another way of communicating. It’s not NECESSARY/MANDATORY, but it can help set a frame or encourage/discourage certain behaviors or tease etc

    “At some point you’re just shooting yourself in the foot, since nothing real can happen online.”

    This. And remember other guys are trying this same shit too. When you text her, her phone has 10 other texts to look at and/or respond to. Meet in person, don’t give the milk away for free, you don’t get anything out of that text chat but she does.

    “Like in my head I think, “Oh, wow. Well I guess I could get with a girl like that if I wanted to, if the circumstances were different. I’m never going to actually meet her or anything, but I bet if I did, we’d be banging like wild animals right now.””

    See that’s how GUYS think. But what I’m trying to get across to Blaximus and crew is that GIRLS don’t think logically like that. You think that because you KNOW a girl isn’t going to fly you to where she is and make you the center of her world because that’s never fucking happened in your life to any guy you know lol But a GIRL gets that same validation barrage you got, but HER hindbrain thinks “Oh, wow. I guess I could get a guy like that! He’s only in Italy and he looks rich omg he would fly me to Italy to meet him and take me to some fancy dinner and we’d look up at the stars and omg could I LIVE in Italy?? I’ve always wanted to omg I could go to all the little shops and stuff!! Omg I could take so many pics for my instagram! My boring hubby is struggling to pay the bills and this guy is offering me a free flight to Italy to meet him, and he says we don’t even have to DO anything so that’s not cheating right??” etc etc

    Because that’s the world of a hot girl in our globally-connected tech age. She KNOWS friends with Sugar Daddys and who’ve been on flights paid for by guys or had guys fly to see them or they have a long distance relationship across the world with some handsome dude in Italy even though they have an “at home boyfriend” here etc and guys are thirsty enough to offer all that shit and tell them whatever they want to hear and spend money to make meeting up happen.

    We can’t relate to that because we’re used to having to chase, but girls are used to being chased, so they don’t view those guys validating them as impossible faraway people they’ll never meet up with…they view them as potential options.

    “Then in Real Life, eye contact, alternate funny/serious, and mostInterestingMan stuff. I get so many comments about eye contact and I’m pretty ugly seriously. Supposedly my eyes sparkle when I’m funny and laugh and they dig that, but I’m pretty sure it’s all feelz and attraction generated on their side. They tell me most men (AFCs) they meet from these dating sites don’t make eye contact and can’t converse…”

    Yup. Been told the same. ’cause guys are becoming more socially retarded and aren’t being taught to look people in the eye (that’s eye-raping objectifying with women and that’s agressive/threatening with men, instead of being taught “look that’s just being CONFIDENT, it’s a GOOD THING, don’t stare down the crackhead hobo but look your boss in the eye when you talk to him about the project you’re working on”). It’s just look down at your phone screen to text.

    The funny thing with laser eye-contact is that when you do it properly (bedroom eye-contact, hold it, cut space, etc) it makes you fully understand why looks don’t matter. Because your eyes take over her RAS, everything else fades to black for her when you lock eyes in that way. She’s not looking at your lack of 6-pack or your facial features or your bald spot or how expensive your shoes are or whether you have a nice watch or whether your belt matches your shoes, she’s just locked onto your eyes and whatever you’re expressing through them.

    If you’re going to play passive game where you stand around like James Bond and wait for her to approach you, then she’ll look at all that stuff. But if you’re being PRO-ACTIVE like you SHOULD be, and getting up in her space giving her emotional impact and lasering, none of that other shit matters to her. All she sees is the “twinkle in your eye”.

    But you have to DO it and experience it to really GET what I’m describing when you take over her RAS.

    “In other words… demonstrations of Alpha behavior…. You can add “guys scared to say No” to the list…”


    “This is the core issue, not that the Nature Of Women(c.2016) is anything new…”

    No one has ever said the Nature of Women has changed. That’s your misunderstanding of what I’ve been saying.

    “You’ve come up with an arbitrary 40 year test…”

    40 years is a fine test. If you’re telling guys to do monoLTRs and/or legally marry and/or have kids, then that relationship has to last from whenever it starts to the end of their lives. I use 40 to emphasize that we’re not talking about a little 3 year relationship here. We’re talking about keeping them LOOOOONG past the NRE stage where there have been plenty of ups and downs and weak moments and boredom etc, because that’s what guys are looking to do to have kids.

    “I’ve suggested as long as the guy has hand, which is backed by all of game/attraction research….”

    Sure. But how is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

    “Have hand, never lose it… ”

    How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

    “Have hand, never lose it relationship Maxim 1…”

    How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

    “yeah the license is good forever, but in order to actually fly and use it you need to pass a bienniel flight review, and have an active log book… You need to demonstrate you maintain the skillz you’ve learned, by having those skillz.”

    How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

    “Guys always think they can “relax” and veg out… foolish thinking… the only thing more foolish than thinking you can do so in a LTR is thinking you can do so outside of a LTR. The work will always need to be done.”

    How is this not “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” to you?

    I don’t get why you can’t just admit that your advice is “be alpha 24/7 forever bro” lol When that’s very clearly what your advice is. And it’s fine advice, I agree, if you can be alpha 24/7 forever bro, you’ve got a good shot at staying at the top of her Hypergamy and making out alright.

    But for the other 99.9999% of men out there who aren’t super alpha badasses like you, it’s probably good for them to have a more realistic understanding of “you know what, there will probably be rough patches in my life where I’m NOT alpha 24/7, I might get sick, I might lose my job, my parents might die in a plane crash, I might just get tired and need a break to relax or might not achieve my dream job, hell SHE might change and get fat or bitchy and become someone I don’t like being around and that might affect how alpha I am, our kids might be born with disabilities and shit that stress me out working an extra job to pay for it, there MIGHT be points somewhere in the next 40+ years where I’m NOT “alpha 24/7 forever bro”

    …and since the way to keep her attracted is to have hand and the way to have hand is to “be alpha 24/7 forever bro”, and I don’t know for sure that I’m capable of that because I’m not Sentient the super badass, and as YaReally has informed me there will be hundreds of other guys putting on the front that they ARE alpha 24/7 bro on their social media etc gunning for her till she’s 35 maybe even longer, MAAAAAAAYBE it’s not the smartest idea to legally tie myself to a contract that says “be alpha 24/7 forever bro or she gets your money, kids and the house””

    Common sense.

    The way to not fall in the spike pit is to just stay balanced on the wooden stilts…but I don’t think I’m going to sign a legal contract that says I’ll stay balanced up there for 40+ years while a dozen termites are crawling on the stilts or else I’ll lose everything. But hey, maybe I’m just CRAZY not wanting to take risks like that and wanting to look for alternative paths, like being on a metal platform instead of wooden stilts.

    “Now there is one cheat… instead of practicing an Alpha veneer, a mask, and expending all the effort of trying to keep same from slipping…”

    Fake it till you make it doesn’t work!! It’s all a facade!! The girl will see the real you one day under all the lieeeeessss!! Anything else from Jezebel you’d like to quote? lol

    “embrace the pursuit of a dynamic, passionate and authentic life and the Platinum Rule. The irreducible Alpha Triad and an eternal MPO in one package. Supra Game level unlocked…”

    The step by step of how to do your always vague “be dynamic, passionate and authentic” is just the same steps PUA lays out for how to do that lol I don’t get why you’re trying to relabel and coin your own Sentient Catch-Phrase (TM) term for stuff that’s already got names and labels like it’s some new technique. Same shit as Simple Pickup selling “being in state” as “god mode” and Krauser selling “AF/BB” as “r/K selection”.

    It’s just silly and muddies the knowledge-base for newbies who are like “Mystery told me to be expressive and emote, which SOUNDS like being passionate and dynamic, but Sentient’s making it sound like Mystery’s way is just some Alpha veneer mask so I should just be passionate and dynamic like he says but how are those different from emoting and being expressive, he never really describes any step by step just this vague reference to his magic technique that’s somehow not the same as what I’d learn in PUA so WAT DO????” lol

    on September 7th, 2016 at 2:07 pm
    Original Link

    @Sun Wukong
    “Marriage runs directly counter to this strategy for men, which is why I’m puzzled by the belief that young guys should or even can have a marriage these days. Is it just ego investment on the part of already married guys? I mean, if we’re about helping guys set an internal MPO but then we advise them in to a strategically stupid decision given current circumstances, are we really helping?”

    Read the comment section (this isn’t a red pill subreddit this is just a general sample of people in /r/news/) for some reality checks too:

    “I had a friend who was putting her ex through the wringer. Took the house, took his dog, used his kids against him. Dude got a 2nd job bartending because he couldn’t afford to live on what he was now making. She found out one night when we were out drinking, she sued him for more child support. She did this again when he was picking up extra shifts and hiding it. Right then I realized I shouldn’t ever marry and have kids.”

    “The divorce echo chamber is a powerful thing. Everyone telling her she is entitled to his money, siding with her in every disagreement, making him into the villain. Suddenly different parenting approaches became chasms to argue over. It was pretty weird seeing how it devolved into the mess it was.”

    “I’m really sad that I’m getting to the age now where most singles are divorced single moms. A lot of them really are just dogshit people; the “you’re right, he’s wrong about everything” back patting and ego reinforcement they go through during the divorce process seems to really warp their ideas about how to treat others and what the world does/does not owe them. I’ve gone on a few dates/Tinder setups where it became immediately obvious to me why she was divorced and why I wanted no further part of it.”

    “that’s what kills me. I’m scared to put my livelihood on the line on the off chance that I get a psycho that takes everything I’ve built up for myself. the thought of going back to being basically homeless terrifies me, and there’s a good chance that happens if you go through a nasty divorce.”

    “Yeah, I completely agree. The older I get, the more I just don’t want to date ever, get married, have kids. It just seems so futile now. I’m so lucky I never got any of my ex girlfriend’s pregnant.”

    “Are you still friends?” “No, I was a dissenting opinion in how she was treating her ex which made us argue a bunch, and then she got all caught up in being “A single working mom with a deadbeat ex, and woe-is-me.” type person so I skated.”

    “My mom left my dad after 29 years of marriage. Their divorce took 2.5 years from the time of filing to the time of finalization and cost them more than 200k in legal fees (combined). Apparently, after decades of marriage, there is significantly more “shit” to go through. Not to mention that, in hindsight, we are all fairly certain their lawyers were colluding to drag it out to continue billing hours since my dad had a decent chunk of money in the bank. Not sure how much longer, if any, the 70 year old was married, but the hypothetical divorce, if comparing to my parents, sounds comparable to prison.”

    “I could go on for hours about how petty shit got over the dumbest stuff. My dad did say once it was all done, he wished he had just given her whatever she wanted on day one and saved the 200k in legal fees he had to pick up. He probably would have had more money at the end of the day.”

    Hell of a dice roll.

    And of course all of this is met with the usual incredibly nurturing sympathy that Feminism has helped enhance these days:

    “I’m a female, and I can’t even look at myself in the mirror without all the lights on. It’s way too spoopy to view a female in a dimly lit room. We’re so sneaky and conniving… we could be plotting anything! Know why we all go to the bathroom at the same time? It’s so that we can keep an eye on the others when we’re at our most vulnerable, so that they can’t pull any fast ones on us.”

    “Which is precisely why I’ve never said “be Alpha 24/7 bro” and instead have said pursue the Platinum Rule and move beyond game qua game into a dynamic, passionate and authentic life… ”

    For how long? Exactly.

    “Faking it is the biggest cause of game failure… the girl will see the real you one day… and what you feel they feel… Tell the paper alpha guys how far faking it will get them… Now Game as mimicry of alpha behavior does work, it just won’t work over an extended period.”

    lol ok thanks for letting us know your view of game so we can fully discount it. I didn’t realize someone posting here would be spouting Jezzie points about how game is just faking it forever.

    “I think this is why you are so concerned with catching a cold or dealing with some adversity in life perhaps?”

    It’s because my head isn’t up my ass and I’ve seen a shitload of captain alpha Corey Worthington Naturals get cheating on, dumped, divorce-raped, etc even though they were “DPA”. I account for the realities of life.

    “when you become DPA these episodes are part of the roller coaster of life, that emotional balance that women crave and they love coming to your side and banding together”

    Feel-good nonsense fluff. A bunch of the guys above sharing divorce rape stories were probably DPA at some point but slipped up or naturally devolved over time. You still haven’t answered how your advice ISN’T just “be alpha 24/7 forever bro”. It’s hilarious that you can keep saying the exact same thing 500 ways under the sun but refuse to simply say the actual words that I’m summing your position up as because they show how dumb your advice is.

    “why do you think so many couples TRY and inject things like make a big move or have a baby to spark their relationship?”

    Because they’re bored in their LTR as the NRE wears off.

    “And you keep keep keep bleating on about marriage when to a person not a single guy here has advocated getting married for it’s own sake. ever. Not once. Bizarre.”

    Tell it to Big Al and comb through the last bunch of discussions on the subject. Plenty of guys are sticking to the “but if you find a special unicorn, and you’re DPA, it’ll be fine”. Same deal with monogamy. The whole point of my original post was that women aren’t offering monogamy if they have social media and orbiters, and they all come with that now, so men shouldn’t be offering monogamy.

    “Are your parents divorced?”

    Nope, the opposite. Very happily married. But I understand how rare that is with what we’re working with in 2016.

    “and for the record on the Nature of Women… changed since (pick a date) 1000 BC? 100 AD? 900 AD? 1800 AD? [insert your own date] or not?”

    How many times do I have to repeat that no one has ever said the Nature of Women has changed? I literally said it in my last post in THIS thread that you’re replying to. Do you have a learning disability? Society and the influences on women have changed, just like it’s no longer cool to wear disco pants so you’re probably not wearing disco pants to your next fancy event. Disco pants not being cool doesn’t mean the Nature of Men has changed. This is a very simple concept to grasp.

    “What would you tell a guy who’s MPO is to get married?”

    That he’s had that socially conditioned into him and it’s VASTLY more likely than not going to end badly and that he can have everything he wants from a marriage without a legal contract so there’s no point putting his head in the noose.

    What would YOU tell him? Be alpha bro 24/7 forever? Sorry I mean be DPA bro 24/7 forever?

    “If one of your plates gives you herpes is it a strategically stupid decision you have made or a tactical error? And who is at fault?”

    If the rate of STDs is climbing astronomically and everyone is catching herpes and you decide to ignore people warning you to wrap your dick and take precautions and you’re looking at a girl with sores all over her vag, then yes, you have made a stupid decision overall.

    Why do you want to send guys to the gallows? To justify your own life choices?

    “I am a strong advocate for men not just demonizing anything just because THEY can’t see a way to make things work.”

    I’m not demonizing it, I’m just pointing out that statistically on all fronts and through endless shared experiences etc and based on everything we know and accept about attraction, it is 1) removing your ability to leave easily which drastically reduces your ability to keep hand and 2) society is attempting to get her to divorce you in a wide array of ways with levels of pressure and influence that weren’t around in the old days, 3) you are VERY likely to fail at it and the consequences will be astronomical and may destroy your life for the rest of it’s length

    But more importantly 4) you can get EVERYTHING you get from a legal marriage without signing a legal contract. Can any guy who says “it CAN work though” bring up a reason to even TRY to walk that tightrope when you can get EVERYTHING (except like, a tax break or some shit, which will be significantly less than divorce costs) without signing that legal paper that puts your head in a noose?

    Anyone? Bueller?

    Now if a guy understands all that and still decides to get married, I won’t stop him, I’ll cross my fingers he’s the unicorn exception, but I’m sure as shit not going to recommend to all my buddies and future generations of men that they walk that tightrope to have kids when there are possible other alternative routes that don’t involve putting their head in a noose.

    “Nobody wants to believe that monogamy is dead. That’s just sad to think about. It’s also sad to think the next generation of guys heading off to slaughter in an environment where monogamy is dead. It’s sad to think about how their kids are going to be affected by that environment. We’re realistically looking at probably two more generations of further deterioration until we hit bottom. That just sucks.”

    This. Don’t shoot the messenger. You can ignore your disease but the longer you deny it’s there the harder it will be to treat down the road. Time to accept that we have a disease and look for alternative cures ’cause we at least have GLIMPSES of an older time where this stuff was easier to make work, that we can draw bits and pieces from (but have to take today’s cultural shifts into account). The next generation or two of guys will look at us the way we look at people trading cows for their wife and lol at how unapplicable that is to today’s society. “Just give her dad more cows guys, it worked for me” isn’t advice that guys are going to be able to apply.

    “It’s just easier to come to the logically shallow conclusion that “It worked for me, so it can work for you. Women haven’t changed.” That’s the mindset you need to make it work, DPA is the mindset you need to make it work, but mindsets aren’t logical. Blax’s “Calm the fuck down and stop worrying” is the mindset you need to make it work. But you aren’t actually helping anyone raise babies with that advice. At some point you need to step back and look at things with the 1’s and 0’s part of your brain. We’re going to need to milk every advantage we can to make sure guys can be around to raise their kids in the future.”

    This. Well put.

    Like I GET it, because your guys’ view is the same view Naturals usually have “just be cool bro” and ya, that’s a good mindset. But on a MASS level we’re going to see populations drop and MGTOW pick up steam because this vague advice and positive thinking doesn’t take into account the realities of the world today (it just assumes that any guy who gets divorce raped wasn’t positive and alpha enough which is silly) and shit is going to go to hell between the sexes and none of that will change that we’ll still have men who WANT to have kids and WANT to have a long-term relationship with a woman, but who don’t have ANY method of achieving that except a broken strategy now full of holes and covered in rust that’s almost impossible to get to work with the selection of girls and culture they’ll be trying to apply it in.

    “At some point you need to step back and look at things with the 1’s and 0’s part of your brain. We’re going to need to milk every advantage we can to make sure guys can be around to raise their kids in the future.”

    Ya, we’re not discounting your opinions and we’re not saying that “being DPA is bad” and “being alpha is bad” We’re saying that realistically for the majority of the men out there, they’re not going to just become DPA overnight and have it last for life so they don’t get raped. So unless all you want is assholes like ME to reproduce then we should figure out some alternative ideas for guys that carry lower risks than the traditional route that’s clearly broken.

    “All that being said my personal opinion is that PUA’s here wouldn’t have a problem keeping a 2016 girl around long enough to raise a kid. Is that your point? I can’t really tell.”

    Personally I think keeping a girl around for the NRE years would be no problem, but past that (I’m assuming we’re talking about <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 culture) you're probably on borrowed time. She's probably going to have to stray at some point to realize that Fabio69's profile was full of shit, and that probably won't be at the 18 year mark. Most guys may have to deal with a custody battle of some kind at some point, probably around the 7-year-itch mark. If you can keep your shit up you might make it to your deathbeds together, but that's going to get more and more rare so better not to bank everything you have on being able to pull it off, especially when there's NO benefit to it.

    "I’m no fan of men being afraid."

    Not jumping out of a plane without a parachute and hoping you'll land on something soft isn't being afraid lol It's playing the odds intelligently.

    "While we are on that topic, does anyone have a link or information to describe Tyler from RSD’s child situation from the last five years?"

    Congrats to Golden State on the #nbafinals

    A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    Just landed in Los Angeles after a long trip to the east coast

    A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    #rsddylan assisting me with my hair loss issues

    A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    You can find tons of pics of his kids on his Instagram. Seems to be going alright aside from him having a job where he has to travel a lot.

    One of his kids has a slight mental disability (can't remember what disability, I think it's the kid that seems super happy all the time) and needs some special attention/schooling I think, but otherwise he's got some cute happy kids with a good positive male influence and wants to have a bunch more kids.

    All without monogamy or legal marriage.

    There are alternative paths to this shit…let the old system die and let's brainstorm and experiment for the next generations.

    I THINK his original baby mama and him aren't together-together (so basically "divorced" minus all the bad shit that could have come with it if he was legally married to her) but they're still friends and there's no custody battles or anything and Tyler is banging young hotties and she's probably got some dude and he's able to still be a big influence in their life etc

    Tyler's approach may fuck up entirely, who knows, but so far it looks like a pretty good setup, especially for a guy who's job doesn't involve as much travel. And it might not even be perfect, there are probably areas of how he did things that could be tightened up. So why push guys into monogamous LTRs and marriage chasing that 1% chance they'll stay alpha 24/7 for life when we could look for better approaches in this eat pray love society.

    Personally I'd rather have Tyler's kids (brought up eating healthy, meditating, reading and learning etc as he programs them to be super-beings lol) befriending my future theoretical kids and running/influencing society than kids coming out of some deadbedroom miserable home full of cheating and jealousy and negativity eventually ending with a single mom raising them with random shitty male influences passing through each weekend and a dad that's breaking his back working 3 jobs living out of his car. lol

    But to get there, we may have to accept that it might not be possible to BE "DPA" enough that she's NEVER going to be curious about those orbiters or NEVER going to cheat or go eat pray love for a bit. Maybe we have to accept that she's going to NEED to do that to reinforce how much better her life is with you if she starts to lose the feels and maybe we shouldn't be monoLTR'ing and legally handicapping ourselves so that if she DOES stray we can just call up another girl in our harem and bang her out till she comes back (or be fine with not taking her back but still have custody of our kids etc).

    on September 7th, 2016 at 6:01 pm
    Original Link

    “Under certain conditions, the odds are pretty high that I can catch a bullet from a cop in a routine interaction. Lot’s and lot’s of examples for years and years. But I won’t overreact and barricade myself in my home, refusing to come outside because…you know….cops.”

    The benefits you get from going outside VS barricading yourself in your home are so numerous it would be hard to even decide where to begin listing them.

    What benefits does a man get from monogamy/marriage that he can’t get in a pLTR or without a legal contract?

    No one answers this when I ask it but I’m seriously asking lol

    The only benefit is not having to risk losing her or having to hold your frame that you won’t be monogamous, which comes from scarcity.

    “and women will always come to heal under a man’s guidance and strong influence. Most women.”

    Sure. But why be monogamous for that? Why risk a legal contract?

    How would Andy’s long-term arrangement with his wife be any worse if he didn’t have a piece of paper signed that legally risks everything based on her staying happy for 40+ years? He could do literally everything else that he’s doing now, even down to choosing to be monogamous day to day with her, but without a noose around his neck, and would probably be MORE attractive to her for it because she knows he can leave (and she’d probably be more inclined to keep herself hot and pleasant for him so he doesn’t leave, VS the wife who gets the ring and stops the BJs and gets fat ’cause her hubby isn’t going anywhere)

    What benefit does he get from that noose? Anyone? It only comes with downsides (making it more difficult to stay attractive and keep hand because you’re giving her all the ability to fuck you over).

    on September 7th, 2016 at 6:17 pm
    Original Link

    To elaborate further:

    1) we know that you can’t negotiate desire, so a legal contract and/or monogamy in exchange for her love is nonsense

    2) we know statistically and anecdotally that a legal contract and/or monogamy will not prevent a woman from bailing/cheating

    3) we know that the ability to leave her helps keep the man attractive

    4) we know that the man staying attractive helps keep her attracted long-term

    5) we know that women who fear their men leaving and/or feel jealousy (aka dread game), are more likely to bring their A-game to the relationship and desire him

    6) we know that “needing it to work” creates outcome dependence

    7) we know that the more outcome dependent a man is, the less attractive he is to the woman

    8) we know that people who are incentivized and socially pressured to do something are more likely to do that thing and we know that women are incentivized and socially pressured to leave/cheat/divorce and eat pray love

    9) we know that in a situation where a woman is incentivized to leave a man and a man is punished severely if that happens and a man has no other girls/options in his life, he will “need it to work” more and be more outcome dependent, which is less attractive, which makes it harder to keep hand etc

    but most importantly 10) no one has named anything that a marriage and/or monogamy gives you that you can’t get without signing that legal piece of paper that puts the noose around your neck

    If I proposed this as a business deal I would have to be able to name some pretty fucking AMAZING benefits you’d be getting out of it for you to take up this insane agreement lol Anyone got any for marriage/monogamy in 2016 where girls have orbiters lined up around the block in their pocket?

    on September 7th, 2016 at 7:12 pm
    Original Link

    “Holding frame sounds strange. Frame is developed and integral. If you have to wrestle with it and hold it like a strong dog at the end of a leash pulling you, then something is wrong. With you. Lol.”

    A significant number of men are pressured to agree to marriage out of a fear of losing their girl if they don’t agree to it. The pressure her, her family, her friends, his family, his friends, society, etc put on him is testing whether he can hold his frame against it being tested. He’s not wrestling with his own frame, he’s trying to hold his frame against external pressure.

    “Benefits to monogamy/marriage will always, always be subjective. If a man sees zero benefit, there will be none, ever. He should avoid those things.”

    I’m asking you, specifically. What benefits have you gotten from having your name on a piece of paper VS not and not having the option to have sex with other women VS having it?

    “I think ( my opinion ) that here in the comments and on reddit and elsewhere in the sphere, the ” risks ” are being just a tad overstated.”

    Statistics show otherwise lol And we are extrapolating the future…those statistics aren’t about to turn around from the plummeting trend, they’re going to continue to plummet. Guys reading this 10 years from now will be dealing with even higher more severe risks unless you have some kind of evidence/reason for us to believe that the trend will slow down or reverse?

    “Again, if a man sees no value in monogamy, he should bypass that.”

    Again, I’m asking you: what benefit is there to legal marriage and/or monogamy? We know your position is “well if he can’t see any benefit he shouldn’t do it”, but we’re asking you what benefit do YOU see in it? What benefit should a guy be looking for for legal marriage and monogamy to even be an OPTION on the table these days?

    “The point is, Andy isn’t experiencing any real difficulty. It’s all in his head.”

    Again, how would his situation be different if he simply didn’t have a legal noose around his neck or guilt about approaching/banging other women? Everything you’ve said is just evading answering these questions lol

    “Sure, you are correct, Andy COULD have done everything you mentioned above.”

    What benefit is he getting from NOT having done it without the legal contract and/or monogamy? Anything at all. A bit of a tax break?

    “Hand wringing and worry will do nothing in his situation, especially since he is having no issues outside of his own thoughts and doubts. I love him dearly, but that’s all on him.”

    Would a man have less hand-wringing and worry on his mind if his head wasn’t in a noose VS in a noose? Would you be more stressed about being 1 minute late for your job if you signed a contract saying you would be fired for being 1 minute late VS if you had no such contract and were able to arrive 5 minutes late without any risk to your career?

    “There is zero benefit in marriage for most men.”

    Agreed, except replace “most” with “all”. You haven’t given ANY benefit that a man, ANY man, even yourself, would get from legal marriage that he wouldn’t get from not having signed that paper.

    “… you working my brain man.”

    Part of why it works your brain is because your attachment to marriage is socially conditioned. That’s why you can’t just bust out “there’s this and this and this benefit that I wouldn’t have gotten if I hadn’t signed the paper”. Because you didn’t get married for a list of actual logical reasons, you got married because you were socially conditioned to believe it was “the thing to do”. There’s no ACTUAL reason for you to have done it except reasons that come down to pain/discomfort avoidance (ie – not having to deal with her threatening to end the relationship or give you drama etc for not agreeing to sign the paper, the same way a lot of guys won’t bring up a prenup because they don’t want to deal with the drama of her being offended by it).

    This goes back to what Scray was saying way back about how when someone is socially conditioned, you can tell when you corner their thought process and force it to answer specific logical questions about it. It doesn’t HAVE answers because it was a conditioned decision.

    If you ask me what benefit there is to going outside, I can list a thousand benefits without breaking a sweat. But if I can’t get ONE benefit of signing that contract or promising monogamy (VS being able to fool around but simply choosing not to if you don’t feel like it, but you have that freedom if you choose) out of the guys who talk about how “but it can still work, it might not be for everyone but for some guys…”, well, maybe it’s time to talk guys out of putting their neck in the noose instead of giving them tips on how best to balance on the stool under the noose.

    “All men have the ability to leave. They may not want the penalty, but the ability is there none the less.”

    Right, except that, I’m sure you’d agree just based on simple logic, that the penalty for a guy who signs that legal paper is significantly higher than a guy who doesn’t. I am at MUCH less risk breaking up with a girl I’m dating than Andy would be leaving his wife.

    “Hmmm. I advocate for guys to abandon social pressures, especially ones like this. It’s all a part of the maturing stage. Be your own man…all that good shit.”

    Agreed. But if you’re going to learn to hold your frame against social pressure, why not learn to hold your frame against the social pressure of signing a legal contract and being monogamous instead, since, as you agree with everything I wrote in that numbered list, it’s clearly a better option with less risk?

    “Social pressure on women can be controlled. If a guy has to work at controlling it, he should not have gotten married. It’s up to him to grasp this.”

    What reason can you give, any at all, for any man, even yourself, to deal with that whole situation? What benefit is there to him? Like why should he grasp this? What upside is there? Anything at all beyond the tax break.

    “I get that the incentives are out there in the world, but it is not a given that a woman will always act on them.”

    It’s not, but what benefit is there to the man to even ROLL those dice? Any benefit at all. Not “if he doesn’t see a benefit then don’t roll them”, I’m asking ANYTHING you can give, so we can look at it and figure out if that benefit can be obtained through a less risky way.

    “If a guy wants to marry, he MUST up his understanding. Your wife does not run shit. If one is not prepared to LEAD, then he should get out of the way and stay single. It’s better for him.”

    This applies to having a long-term relationship living together with kids where you simply don’t sign the legal paper. What benefit is there for any man at all, to “want to marry” and have to do the same “upping his understanding” but with significantly higher stakes at risk?

    “What I name is that guys should not get married. If they decide that they want to go that route” “Then, decide with full knowledge.”

    This is what I’m trying to kill. The very notion that marriage is even an OPTION anymore. And a man promising a girl monogamy as an option is on the same path toward the same dead end thanks to technology and cultural shifts.

    The reason I brought this uncomfortable discussion up a few articles ago is that it should be widely accepted in the red pill community that there’s no decision anymore. Legal marriage is simply NOT an option now, we need alternatives and guides for how men can best execute them or we will simply be spinning our wheels till you old guys croak and still just have a broken system that gets progressively worse as the trends show.

    And promising girls monogamy should be HEAVILY looked at now that technology has created a female-favored pLTR situation while men are still agreeing to monogamy…but the red pill has provided guides for creating harems and oLTRs and mLTRs and pLTRs etc, so there are at least other options in that area.

    Whereas in the “how do I successfully have kids raised in a stable 2-parent household?” department we have ONE plan: the broken shitty plan that statistically is tanking and will continue to tank and holds insane levels of risk.

    Even the crazy ideas like whoever pitched “just keep her pregnant”…hey, maybe that’s an idea worth discussing. Time to think outside the box if we want solutions for the next generations of men (and women, since the end result would ultimately benefit both, and society).

    on September 7th, 2016 at 7:25 pm
    Original Link

    I just want to quote myself here to make sure it’s clear that I’m not attacking you or your marriage or any of you old guys and your marriages:

    “It’s not, but what benefit is there to the man to even ROLL those dice? Any benefit at all. Not “if he doesn’t see a benefit then don’t roll them”, I’m asking ANYTHING you can give, so we can look at it and figure out if that benefit can be obtained through a less risky way.”

    What I’m doing is saying: look, we have a store that’s GREATLY over-charging for this can of juice (having kids), and whenever you purchase it you have a 50% chance of being punched in the face. 99% of guys are going to want that juice because they’re biologically hardwired to want it.

    But we have another store over here where the juice is a reasonable price and there’s a 0% chance of being punched in the face.

    You guys managed to NOT get punched in the face and you have great tips on how other guys can take those odds down to maybe only a 40%, maybe even only a 30% chance of being punched in the face.

    But what benefit is there to getting that juice from the store that’s overcharging with the 30-50% chance of being punched in the face? Any benefit at all.

    Because sheer logic says that there’s no reason to ever buy from that store. Every man should be buying that juice at a reasonable price from the 0% punch in the face risk store.

    And now the part I’m trying to emphasize here:

    The reason I’m asking you to name benefits of buying from the punch-face store is so that if you say “well, you get a bag of potato chips WITH it and not every man might decide that bag of potato chips is worth the risk, and if he doesn’t think it is, he should stick to the store with low risk”

    But we need you to TELL US about that bag of potato chips so that we can then say “okay, is there a way that this guy could get the juice from the no risk store AND get a bag of potato chips through some OTHER means? Is there an alternate way for him to obtain a bag of potato chips? Yes? Okay, then we have getting the juice AND potato chips at minimal risk now. Are there any OTHER benefits? No? Then no man should even CONSIDER the face-punch store.”

    Make sense? I’m not picking on you, I’m just asking you about that bag of potato chips so that we can make a better store for men so they don’t have to risk getting punched in the face to get that juice.

    on September 7th, 2016 at 7:27 pm
    Original Link


    lol jk congrats dude! Props for putting in all the hard work to get to the point where a girl thinks you know everyone and is wanting your number. I can vividly remember my first successes, that shit sticks with you. Good luck with the Day2, looking forward to the FR! You earned it dude

    on September 7th, 2016 at 7:33 pm
    Original Link

    “Make sense? I’m not picking on you, I’m just asking you about that bag of potato chips so that we can make a better store for men so they don’t have to risk getting punched in the face to get that juice.”

    Just to add to that because I really want to make it clear that I’m not just trying to be an annoying asshole lol

    What we need from you old guys who married is what benefits you guys got from it, so that we can help guys find other ways to get those benefits in a lower-risk fashion. Does that make sense?

    We can’t see ANY benefit to legal marriage or monogamy that they can’t still get from a non-legal non-agreeing-to-monogamy arrangement, so we need you guys knee-deep in that shit to tell us what benefit you get, or Andy gets, or Big Al will get, or hank and his new girlfriend (lol) will get, etc

    Because to US, legal marriage is 100% dead. Even if it can be made to work there’s NO benefit/reason to even TRY to make it work. And it shouldn’t even be presented as an option to men anymore. With monogamy following hot on its trail.

    So we need YOU to tell us what the benefits are to learning to make it work so we can look at those benefits and devise new safer solutions to obtaining them.

    Even promised-monogamy. What benefits are there to promising monogamy that there aren’t to having the option to bang other girls but simply choosing not to on a day to day basis? Any benefits at all? Any benefits that aren’t simply pain avoidance (wanting to avoid risking drama or losing her etc)?

    Enlighten us ya old fucks, this is your chance to bestow your experience on us so we can use it to help future generations of men lol

    on September 7th, 2016 at 9:24 pm
    Original Link

    “2) The benefit to me was in having a wife, her taking my name, and the understanding that the marriage meant that 99% of the silly, dumb shit stopped. ” Married ” is different than ” dating “.”

    Ok finally lol Now let’s take this apart step by step.

    “The benefit to me was in having a wife”

    lol we can throw this out because “the benefit to me in having a wife is having a wife” is circular logic just like “the benefit of being a feminist is being a feminist”

    “her taking my name”

    I actually don’t know if this is possible without legal marriage. People ARE able to apply for name changes though, so theoretically it would be possible without legal marriage. Though that would fuck with the guys in common-law states for sure (because they’re acting like spouses, so the lesson is don’t be in a common-law state or work on changing those laws).

    That said, these days a lot of men don’t even get that benefit from it anyway, their wife keeps their last name or hyphenates for various reasons. So legal marriage isn’t a guarantee of that, and in an age of technology and pushing women to have careers early on, where “all my customers and business marketing stuff is based around my actual last name so I can’t change it”, we’ll probably see less taking of the last name.

    “and the understanding that the marriage meant that 99% of the silly, dumb shit stopped.”

    lol we know from the ample amount of men who the “silly, dumb shit” didn’t stop for when they got legally married, that legal marriage is no guarantee of this.

    Can you think of a reason why the “silly, dumb shit” wouldn’t have stopped if you had simply laid down the law the way you did once you got married? Like, why couldn’t you have just laid down the law with your “enough of this silly, dumb shit” without legally marrying her? There was nothing in your marriage contract about no silly, dumb shit (presumably). The “silly, dumb shit” stopping came from you holding your frame, which you could do outside of a legal marriage contract.

    So none of those benefits are benefits you couldn’t get outside of a legal marriage contract. This is why I wanted you to write them out, so we can look at them and see “well, how relevant IS that these days? And are there alternative routes we can go for guys to achieve those things that carry less risk?”

    So legitimately thanks for answering, because there are other guys out there contemplating marriage who will think those same things “the silly, stupid games will stop and I want her to have my name and this INSANE risky legal contract is the way to get those things to happen!” and we can give them alternatives to achieve those things (or explain how they no longer exist or were the result of something else BESIDES the legal marriage contract (like you manning up lol)), but minus the risk.

    “I think my benefit comes in part from having a wife that is on the same page with me re: marriage. It is serious business, but it is also fun and exciting at the same time.”

    You already answered this so this is rhetorical but for the sake of walking guys through what I’m trying to explain, I would ask to this: In what way would you say a legal contract marriage is a different level of serious business that’s also fun and exciting compared to living together, choosing not to sleep with other women (even though you have the option to), having and raising kids under the same roof together, and choosing voluntarily to spend the rest of your lives together, minus the legal noose around your neck? But as you said:

    “You can have that without the marriage part”

    “A woman can not pressure me because she is a woman.”

    Then couldn’t you have had the same end to the silly, dumb shit you had but without the legal contract?

    “So having a “wife ” is much different from having a ” gf “.”

    These are just arbitrary labels that have lost their meaning to society. A “wife” won’t even entertain a thought experiment about giving up her social media because that’s too controlling, in 2016. The old set of books has been thrown out and men need to catch up.

    “But if one sees no difference”

    So then we come down to just social/religious conditioning that puts meanings on arbitrary labels and essentially convinced you to enter a legal contract based on nothing in the same way I might bet on red at the roulette table based on a feeling.

    The thing is that’s not even a BAD thing, or it wasn’t back then compared to now…in a different social culture. But NOW it’s important for men contemplating marriage to understand whether their decision is coming from actual logic or from just “feels” and conditioning, because of how severely lopsided that contract has become compared to your day.

    “If guys believe that women hold every, single card”

    Legally and statistically they pretty much do…once you sign that legal contract. As long as you don’t sign it, they don’t. If I hand you a gun there’s a low chance you’ll shoot me. If you grow to hate me over time, there’s a better chance you’ll shoot me. If I don’t hand you a gun at ALL, you can’t shoot me. That’s not fear, that’s basic logic.

    You have an emotional attachment conditioned into you to put meaning on the handing over of that gun to your partner, and what I’m exposing is that that is based on nothing and the stats show that there’s an increased % chance of partners shooting them along with the backing and pressure of society for them to do it, and that they have to understand there is no actual meaning behind handing over that gun. They don’t have to do it and should not even consider it.

    Everyone wants guys to change society, we all want this beta uprising, MGTOW, marriage strike, we’ll show those women that if they want us to commit then they’ll have to change and become better human beings and be feminine and lose weight and be less bitchy!!!!!!!! Which means no kids for anyone and lots of fatherless kids that grow up to ruin society.

    But when I come along and say “okay, let’s look at options for how we can build a mass plan for men across the board to start following that DOES prevent them from being legally noosed AND allows them to have kids and raise them and be an influence with no risk to the man, everyone loses their fucking mind and wants me to shut up.

    We all wanna see this big revolutionary change in society that fixed everything, we just don’t wanna have to sit down and discuss it because it involves uncomfortable feels and guys checking their egos and asking themselves hard questions.

    @stuffinbox @kfg
    “Real property deeds can be drawn up with a survivor clause. Joint bank accounts default to the survivor, but can also be formed as Payable On Death to a designee. A legal Health Proxy gives all the medical proxy rights of a spouse.

    A Power of Attorney can give rights to act in your behalf from limited to picking up the mail, to doing everything as if they were you save for altering your will.”

    This. Perfect. This is the discussion I’m trying to coax out here. There’s a legitimate benefit to marriage, but here’s an alternative solution for men that offers no risk.

    “I suppose you guy s could just skip the legal marriage part and just write a will,leaving all of your valuable assets to your significant other or whatever you decide to call her.”

    There’s no reason you can’t still call her your significant other, you can even throw a wedding and honeymoon. Unless you’re in a common-law state, which is a thing we should be working on abolishing and making sure men know which states that shit applies and how to avoid being trapped in it (like as Big Al WOULD HAVE LEARNED IF HE HAD DONE HIS FUCKING HOMEWORK LIKE HE SAID HE DID BUT LIED BECAUSE HE DIDN’T WANT ANYONE QUESTIONING HIS FEEEEEELZ ABOUT MARRIAGE, you can write up a legal agreement that says you don’t want to be commonlaw wed ahead of time, and we could discuss how to bring up and execute that conversation, a basic routine/guideline if you will).

    “Does sort of make marriage seem redundant.”

    This is my point. ๐Ÿ™‚ When you ACTUALLY turn off the feels and look at it, there is NO benefit to legal marriage. The whole thing is social conditioning.

    “A girl who is not married is just shacking up and is more inclined to not be with Blaximus, SJF or Andy”

    If Hypergamy, which we all accept, dictates whether she stays attracted and strays or not, which we all accept, and, as Sentient says, being “DPA” will keep her attracted to you, then there are the exact same odds of her staying with you or not staying with you whether you’re legally married or not because it’s based on Hypergamy/DPA instead of the legal contract.

    In the PAST there was a lot of shaming and negative consequences (like her having no financial income etc) to her bailing. Now there’s none and encouragement of the opposite.

    “and do something stupid with her vagina or with her children.”

    Again if DPA works in legal marriage, then DPA works outside of legal marriage. There are the exact same odds except that in legal marriage you’re also forcing yourself into a situation where you have less ability to leave and increase the risk of developing scarcity and outcome dependence which hasten her losing attraction.

    “She truly has no “legal” obligation”

    She has none now. Your old wife would suffer if she left you, but a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 will only gain rewards, from financial to attention.

    "and she will meet every non-monogamous decision the man makes with her own decision/transgression."

    This comes back to "I'm scared to have my frame tested or have uncomfortable discussions with her or lose her", which is scarcity-based. Except that you can say "I get to fuck around and you don't, and if you do I'll walk away" and WALK AWAY with no major consequences, because you didn't agree to anything binding. They are scared to not agree to monogamy because they're scared their girl won't agree to it or will "punish" them for it, which is the opposite of outcome independence.

    "Come on. I’m old school and would never have enjoyed the fruits of my situation if I didn’t get married."

    This is what I'm asking you old guys: in what way would you not be exactly where you are now if you had 1) not signed the legal marriage contract but had otherwise thrown a wedding, lived together, raised kids together, called yourselves married to all the neighbors etc etc, and 2) you had the OPTION to fuck other girls but simply chose every day not to bother with other girls, but were under no actual obligation to exercise your non-monogamous options?

    Serious question. In what way would your life look different given those two factors? It would look exactly the same.

    "So what is the problem?"

    The problem is you guys are still pushing the "but if you want to, it can work" shit, and the "my life wouldn't be this amazing without legal marriage" shit and the "monogamy is still possible, if you don't agree to monogamy then she'll punish you" shit which scares guys away from better paths and gives them hope that the broken shitty path might still work if they roll double-sixes.

    "Once upon a time, circa 200 years ago, marriage conferred certain responsibilities and corollary rights to a spouse. It no longer does so. Marriage is dead, not just because of a social climate that includes feminism and smart phones, but because it no longer exists. The proper noun has been kept as subterfuge, but it has been replaced by the legal system with Civil Union."

    This. My argument in my original post in that Commitment article was that just as you described that Marriage as these guys and previous generations no longer exists, even though we still CALL it the "old name" and men enter it THINKING it'll be the same, it's NOT…

    …my argument is that MONOGAMY is the same way, in 2016. It's a fake label that men don't realize isn't what it used to be. It used to be "we both give up our other options for eachother and focus on eachother". Now it's "the man gives up his options and the woman keeps her social media and male orbiters in her social circles that all want to fuck her and keeps working in a workplace with other men and she keeps stringing them along until the day you fuck up, and she gaslights you into thinking you're being controlling/abusive/silly if you tell her you don't want her to have Facebook or work with those men or talk with her friends she's had since high-school and keeps in touch with over the internet even though they live on the other side of the world now (when in the past she would have been able to at best write a letter to them, now she can Skype video them)".

    THAT'S my real point. Women in 2016 who have social media and a job working around other men are NOT offering men "monogamy". They're offering what I just described above, a pLTR in their favor that requires the man to cut off all his options while she DOESN'T (and continues to collect MORE options).

    So again: "MONOGAMY" is dead. No man should be offering monogamous commitment because their girl, if she has social media, males in her social circle, or men at work, is NOT offering monogamy back…even though we still CALL that arrangement I described "monogamy", it's anything BUT.

    "I can get annoyed by Ya Really’s reductio ad absurdum strawmen, but in this case I will note that there is no state sanctioned 21 year marriage contract. Till divorce do you part, and divorce is divorce."

    lol I'm just reducing this all to the basic logic because everyone has emotional attachment to this shit.

    "should have referred to YaReally in regards to way too much risk avoidance going on/being recommended here. Not living on your edge is buffering higher possible rewards."

    Okay now PLEASE tell us what the "higher possible rewards" of taking this risk is. I've been asking for like 4 posts now. Blaximus offered a few, stuffinbox offered a few, we neutered all of those. What do YOU have to offer as a "higher possible reward" that men will get for it, that they can't get through other means?

    Anything, throw it out there, I'm not being sarcastic, I legitimately want to know about your old man experience so we can analyze it and help men. You wanna see a revolution, help us out and tell us about these "higher possible rewards" so we can figure out if there are ways to achieve them through lower risk means.

    "I’m talking LTR."

    No one is against LTRs, at least I'm not. I've never been against LTRs lol

    "But holy shit, maybe we should reduce the argument to starting with a true high quality woman."

    Unicorn argument. AWALT, Hypergamy still controls their attraction. Society makes it harder to stay on top of her Hypergamy list for a 40+ year marriage and any "DPA" you can do IN a legal marriage to prevent her from leaving, you can do OUTSIDE of a legal marriage.

    "You have to compromise your strategy, sometimes for low downside and high upside"

    There are obvious upsides to LTRs, we can all list off a dozen without thinking. But none of you have offered up an upside to legal marriage or monogamy (these "higher possible rewards" worth not avoiding risk) that can't be gotten without the risk.

    "Then why are you even debating? Why do you even think you can propagate children in that realm?"

    Because I think about other men and future generations instead of just myself.

    "Goes back to that Antifragility, Nassim Taleb stuff. You want to mitigate all risk, you limit your upside"

    What upside did you get from your legal marriage that you wouldn't have gotten through not signing the piece of paper? You yourself SAID that your life wouldn't be as amazing if you hadn't gotten legally married. In what way would it not have been as amazing?

    Serious question, please give us anything for us to analyze and find alternative routes to.

    Otherwise you're saying "there aren't actually any upsides you'd be limiting by not taking risks, but still take risks for no reason" which is simply silly advice.

    "And stating there are no quality woman is a false premise."

    Madonna/whore unicorn complex. This is just purple pill shit. Attraction is not a choice they choose to turn on and off, their attraction is controlled by Hypergamy. They may not be great motherly material, they may have good/bad habits/traits, but none of that will make her stay with a man she's not attracted to, unless she puts him in a deadbedroom arrangement and probably cheats etc on him which is not a situation we want men to be in.

    "I was meaning a feminine woman that can actually give a man energy, raise his children great, have a great feminine personality, and be respected in the social set as one of the most attractive around both because of physical aspects but also personality aspects. And also one that can nurse her parents in their declining years, both in illness and their deathbed and into the grave with respect and a blessing of dignity. "

    That girl sounds great. And anything you can do in a legal marriage or monogamy to keep that amazing girl attracted to you long-term, you can do without the legal marriage and without monogamy.

    "She has a few feral house cats, but she hasn’t actually gone feral on me yet. She tried once, but I wouldn’t allow it."

    And you can "not allow it" without legal marriage or monogamy…in fact it would be EASIER To "not allow it" without those because you have less risk and more hand in the relationship to punish her with if she tries it.

    on September 7th, 2016 at 9:35 pm
    Original Link

    “If Hypergamy, which we all accept, dictates whether she stays attracted and strays or not, which we all accept, and, as Sentient says, being “DPA” will keep her attracted to you, then there are the exact same odds of her staying with you or not staying with you whether you’re legally married or not because it’s based on Hypergamy/DPA instead of the legal contract.”

    Sorry, to clarify I meant “there are the exact same BASELINE odds”, like, not taking cultural pressures/influences and dread etc into consideration…just looking purely at you two being in an empty room together legally or not legally married lol

    When you then add the culture pressures/influences etc she’s more likely to stray or compare you to more options or devalue you (making it harder to stay triggering her Hypergamy VS in the past when she didn’t have a dozen social media 6-pack mansion guys messaging her offering her a better life), and when you add the easier ability to create dread when not legally married then NOT being legally married becomes an even better option on both counts.

    on September 7th, 2016 at 10:14 pm
    Original Link

    Basically do you wanna see more guys and future generations of men (as statistics are showing is increasing) ending up like this:

    ’cause those are the current paths…enter contracts with insane risks and lose access to your kids and end up in deadbedrooms etc etc (for no benefit that anyone can actually seem to name when I ask what the benefit to the legal contract is)…or just MGTOW/PUA/etc forever and refuse to settle and have kids. Those are the options right now. And those are the ones that don’t contribute to the astronomical male suicide rate.

    Personally I’d like if we could offer guys an alternative low-risk plan that increases all the odds in their favor so that we end up with more guys and future generations of men ending up like this:

    Morning habit = meditation, read with my kids

    A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    Mommy? #wherewegoing? #help #meee

    A photo posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    Just putting the final editing touches on this beast of an infield video release for If you'd like to experience my best program in 10 years, come join the tribe. Would love to have you along for the adventure.

    A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    If that takes a few uncomfortable discussions where people think I’m a dick, well hey, I’d say that’s worth the risk. LOOK AT ME SJF I’M TAKING RISKS LIKE A REAL MAN!!

    on September 8th, 2016 at 2:32 pm
    Original Link

    “Yeah. The victory cry of a 64 year old maintaining his frame over his 62 year old is not exactly some hugely incentivizing image for the never-marrieds.”


    Social media has a very different impact when you’re a dad seeing his daughter use it on the couch while she watches TV, who puts it away when he tells her to, and a wife who picked social media up late in life and doesn’t care about it much, compared to when you’re a guy who agreed to a monoLTR legal or otherwise.

    Unless you guys are trying to monoLTR your daughters, you’re always going to be an outside observer that only sees the surface level of the issue. You’re not going to feel what it’s like to try to get a girl who even in a thought experiment won’t give up her social media for Brad Pitt, to give it up. During the NRE stage? Maybe. But after the NRE wears off and she has 20-30-whatever years of “using social media” neural networks built…

    I know *I’VE* txted other girls when the girls I’m with have gone to sleep or I’m in the bathroom or just not around them. They could have told me not to use my phone and I’d have said “lol sure” and then just done it behind their back, and if I got caught “oh it’s my buddy txting me about last night I just have to answer this quick”. Same way Blaximus’ young guests won’t use their phone in front of him but will whip it out the second they’re away from him.

    But we expect women to have some amazing self-retraint? Based on what, “honor”? Negotiated desire? Because they demonstrate SO WELL that they have SO MUCH self-restraint in every other area? lol

    “It’s not just that, a guy with a 50+ wife (and not banging much younger on the side) is not playing in the same league. He’s going “I hit a 20mph fastball today, look at me, look at me!””

    This. But everyone gets offended when I point this out lol

    “So a 50+ wife sucks it up, often literally, pitches 20mph shit tests, and ego boosts her fragile husband. Cool, now in the big leagues the 28 year old hb7 has batters all day long.”

    And that’s not even the major leagues, like trying to lock down a <25yo 8+/10 in a major city, AND you're not some badass older alpha male Blaximus girls cream themselves over who has TONS of offer (no sarcasm lol), you're just some <25yo average guy trying to navigate the SMP because you want a girlfriend, you don't even have a very solid frame yet but fuck are you ever lonely when all the girls you meet have multiple fuckbois and orbiters and walk away laughing when you try to tell them not to use social media because they won't even give it up for their dream man.

    "Naw – she forgets about that noose or the dread after a few years and kids. The daily grind of living life takes over the dread and she’ll get fat and ugly and those BJs stop pretty soon after the the first kid. Don’t asl me how I know…"

    She may be too distracted to consciously think about it or even be too good a person to actively try to divorce-rape you, but her KNOWING that you aren't going to be able to easily leave her is why she'll get fat and stop the BJs and take you for granted. She'll blame "oh I'm tired from the kids" and "oh I don't feel sexy" and a million other reasons, but if she was LEGITIMATELY still attracted to you and still worried about losing you she would go hit the gym and start blowing. We can use the results of guys executing the MMSL plan alone to demonstrate this.

    "I think it all comes down to the man’s game and perhaps that 24/7 thing if he wants her to stay pretty and slim and sexy."

    If he has sick game, he might overcome the handicap of not being able to easily leave her. But I say why handicap himself in the first place? Why not stack the odds in his favor so that he doesn't HAVE to have insane game to keep her. Why not stick to an arrangement that naturally fuels his value with passive traits like dread game and the ability to leave her which lets him be more authoritative etc

    "There’s a limit on how strong a force the dread/alpha game is compared to the allure of the new."

    Yup. That's why I'm stressing not just little even 5 year relatioships where most of it is NRE, but I'm talking 18+ years so you can raise a kid together in a stable 2 parent household. 18 years is a looooong time for the average guy to lose his mojo or miscalibrate or even cheat himself or fuck up keeping attraction (I know guys who can get laid but fuck their LTRs up in under a year all the fucking time), and that whole time she's got highlight reel profiles and guys at work and men through her social circle entering her life dangling away in front of her looking like fun and excitement on a scale we've never seen before in history thanks to technology.

    "The underlying problems to overcome is the relief of boredom"

    This is one of those big issues that I haven't even started to get into yet. Blaximus brought it up earlier, and it does relate to this discussion. We're looking at a generation that hasn't learned to keep themselves entertained. Little kids are handed ipads and shit, stimulus-machines that they can rely on for entertainment 24/7. When I was a kid there were parts of the day with tv shows I wanted to watch and the rest of the day I was on my own to go run around the block finding ways to entertain myself or just learning to enjoy a lazy boring day.

    But now can you juggle your career and raising your kid and taking care of the home and everything while ALSO providing 24/7 stimulus to your wife to keep her from being bored (which she'll view as her life with you being boring, not HER being boring)? Can you basically be a dancing monkey feeding her stimulus 24/7? Because this next generation will be freaking out when they don't have their stimulation devices. Even I panic when I leave the house without my phone to go eat or something and am like "ah shit, NOW what do I do while I eat, I can't read the internet!! Maybe I should go back and get my phone…" lol

    I'm a pretty fun guy, for a length of time. But I need my downtime, I have my quiet moments, I'm not a dancing monkey swirling and twirling 24/7 like some children's TV show coming up with crafts and games and shit for us to do together, I have other shit to focus on. I've spent long periods of time at a girl's place or her at my place and there's just so much downtime and boredom, and those were in 2 year LTRs, not even 10+ years or 40+ years.

    In the past she'd get knocked up at <20yo and stay knocked up every few years and that shit would keep her busy and give her all the stimulus and drama she needs. But now couples are putting off having kids till their 30s because that's the plan given to them by society and no one else is offering a better plan except "oh just have them sooner" and not having answers when they go "ya I pitched that to them all and they all said they want to focus on her career first, there might be some 0.0001% girl on a farm somewhere who's cool with popping out babies at 20yo somewhere but we can't ALL settle with her".

    A lot of the frustration in society and the reason stuff like MGTOW and angry MRAs and jaded players like Roosh etc comes from just not having an alternative plan/route to the goal. We all know the current path is fucked up, but no one is coming up with alternatives. It's like being hungry and someone saying "oh don't eat that food, statistics show there's a good chance it will be poisoned" but not offering alternative food that's not poisoned or is less likely to be poisoned. That hunger doesn't go away for guys, it just turns into frustration.

    "It would be EASIER to take care of this relationship if I wasn’t married."

    This is my point really. Andy is probably doing alright. But he would have more ability to shape his life if he wasn't legally restrained. That's all. He could choose to do everything exactly as he's done it but without the noose and he would have more maneuverability and room for error.

    "I’ve been the ex that goes out for coffee. lol."

    lol a lot of my views on this aren't because I'm worried about myself, they're because I'm the asshole who's girlfriends, fiances, wives, etc are coming over to fuck, have my name saved in their phone as a chick name, text me when they're sitting on the couch beside their husband, call their boyfriend to tell them they're going to crash at their BFF girlfriend's house while I'm going down on her trying to distract her during the phone call, etc I'm the guy they talk about how bored they are or how """"controlling"""" their boyfriends are when their boyfriends try to lay down the law or get them to not txt around them etc

    Lots of us have been that guy. And I'm sure not all the guys with these girls were just loser AFC pieces of shit…some of them were probably pretty cool, at least at SOME point in their relationship, like the NRE stage, but they weren't able to keep alpha 24/7 forever and she went out on a girls' night out or she made a social media account etc and ran into me.

    "Mindset wise I don’t worry about anything."

    Right, I think Blaximus has this vision of us all being like "OMG BUT WUT IF SHE CHEATS AHH DOOM GLOOM" 24/7 but no, this is just a logical compartmentalized discussion. Just like during a sarging debrief you discuss where you might have slipped up in your game with a set you lost, objectively and without emotions involved, but IN that set you don't even entertain the thought that you could fuck up because you're too awesome.

    We are just discussing and analyzing some uncomfortable realities and trends and statistics.

    "And honestly, that’s all I really care about. If she does stray I’ll just dump her when they turn 18."

    Again maybe this part of a potential solution to discuss. What if around the 7 year mark you dump her for 6 months, to remind her what life without you is like, then take her back. In the old days Tyler would purposely pick a fight and break up with his girls before he went travelling for a month, so that they would be too obsessed with getting him back because he did a sudden hard takeaway, to cheat on him lol If you weren't legally married, you could do something like that. And then maybe do it again when the kids turn 18 and she's hit the wall.

    Maybe there's something in there worth looking at in terms of forming a long-term strategy that has a better success rate than the plummeting success rates of the current plans.

    "I have no reason to doubt you. I'll have a better perspective on it in 2 or 3 years."

    All of this will take time to fully test, and a lot of dudes who are up for taking some serious chances for the greater good lol But the current plan isn't working well…statistics and simple observation show that shit is getting worse not better out there in terms of fatherless kids and broken homes and shit.

    "I structured my 28 year mLTR with legal wills&testaments, shared property, and a certain amount of trust. Walking out was easy and free. The mLTR was our choice and nothing drawn on a legal contract would have change much except making the legal transfer of property on death a bit easier."

    See this is the kind of stuff we need to discuss. Also mLTR technically means "multiple-LTRs" (multiple girlfriends (LTRs) basically, VS fuckbuddies), that's why I always say monoLTR. I assume you mean monoLTR lol, but just pointing it out to keep terminology consistent and all.

    But like, why aren't red pill guys looking into how to structure that kind of relationship instead? Sure it didn't pan out, there may have been things you could have tweaked here and there to improve it (like having more game in general) but like, you got out of there nice and smooth. Why nail yourself to the cross when you don't have to?

    "It’s time we shed the last shackles of the religious era – only men are bound by them anyways."

    This. That's why I brought up the monogamy is dead thing. Guys in a "monogamous relationship" with a girl who has social media, works around other men, and/or has males in her social circles, are NOT in a monogamous relationship. They're bound and restrained and the girl is NOT. That's important to understand.

    "Men must accept subservience to women. There’s nothing you can possibly ever do. Be sure to get a nice, sturdy couch for the long haul."

    You're dropping into sarcastic exaggeration because answering the actual questions forces you to admit that there really isn't any benefit to marriage that you couldn't have gotten by just having a strong frame with no legal ties lol

    "It’s impossible for any woman to be faithful because every woman is doggedly pursued by hundreds of men."

    No one's ever said it's impossible. Just that it's significantly more difficult now than when you did it.

    "I’m going to eat breakfast. I’ll ask my 22 year old neighbor what I should eat."

    Looks like we broke Blax lol But this is what happens when you confront socially conditioned beliefs. There's no logic behind them, just emotion. This is WHY I'm asking you the questions lol because you don't realize you're giving socially conditioned responses that don't hold up under logical analysis.

    "This non legal ltr that you are proposing is nothing new in this society. It has been done and is being done all the time."

    Agreed. The irony of it is the most successfull ones are the ones that don't advertise it, because when you advertise it, the girl receives social pressure about it and that makes it more likely to blow up. Gene Simmons is a good example, he was fine until he got cocky and made a reality show that showed his arrangement and then got caught on tape banging a groupie that his wife was 100% fine with all the other times he did it in the past except NOW she's in the spotlight and has social pressure focused on her.

    "How important is that biological need for survival of your genes being passed down to the future generations?"

    Not important enough to risk ending up like divorced and miserable married guys I've met lol I don't have any desire for kids right now (because much like with women, I don't focus on "but they're so cuuuuute" I focus on "I'll have to clean poopy diapers and deal with tantrums in public places and that's annoying", "my wife's vag will get shredded", you know, the realities of having kids instead of the roses and sunshine vision society pitches lol) but I'm open to the possibility (and realistically the likelihood) that around the 45-50 year mark I'll have more desire to pass on my genes and teach my kids what I've learned and, as I've agreed with from the start, the best environment to raise a kid in is a 2-parent stable household.

    It's not relevant to me right NOW, but half the commenters here may be dead or in nursing homes when it IS relevant to me, better ask questions while I can lol

    "It was all roses and rainbows until you got to “shitty male influences passing through each weekend.” You will have that in the pLTR or really no matter what."

    You can live with her and raise the kids together and let her know that you'll leave her if she fucks other guys etc. Primary LTR is not the same as an Open LTR. You can have a one-sided pLTR where you're allowed to bang around and she's not. But most guys can't even conceive that that's an option or that they could do it, because they're socially conditioned to think it's impossible/abusive lol when really it's more the natural order of things biologically. She'll still have the social media influences and shit, but you won't have shitty male influences passing through your kids' lives each weekend any more than a legally married guy living with her and raising the kids together does.

    "The marriage ends with divorce and you get shitty male influences"

    Right, which is why I think it's important to come up with with plans that have better odds of making it to at least the 10 year mark…ideally 16-18+ but if you can even get a kid to the 10-16 age range, you should be able to program them enough that they're not as influenced by whatever random dicks she ends up bringing into their lives after the separation.

    "All these scenarios will lead to her having other males around your kids in close proximity that may or may not have shitty values, shoot heroin, physically, sexually or otherwise abuse etc…."

    A non-legalized relationship where you live together and raise the kids together etc will have no more risk of her bringing heroin addicts around the house than a legally married relationship where you live together and raise the kids together etc. Except that without the legal contract she's more likely to behave and NOT bring heroin addicts around because you can bail on her easily.

    It's fascinating how deeply entrenched the social conditioning of "what? You don't want to be legally married? WELL THEN YOU MUST NOT LIVE TOGETHER AT ALL AND YOUR KIDS WILL NEVER KNOW YOU". Like no, you can just do everything you would do in a legal marriage, including a wedding and living together and raising kids together etc, but without the legal noose.

    "Is that ideal? Your children being forced to call some shitty asshole dad?"

    Nope. But his legal marriage didn't prevent that from happening, so he could have gotten the same result but without the legal marriage noose around his neck. I'm sorry for your friend but this is just an emotional argument you're making, it doesn't really relate to the style of relationship I'm describing.

    "You ARE getting into a state bound legal “contract” by making a baby. The agreement came when you came inside her. You’re now tied legally for a minimum of 18 years (if they graduate on time or have no special needs). Financially you’re fucked. The state will take the money directly out of your paycheck to support the baby you made and it’s momma. You will have ZERO say in what she spends the money on. You may also be forced to provide health insurance which may include eye and dental care."

    Right, all valid points. The way to view things is: "every reason that I can't easily walk away from her is another chain on me". We've gotten to the point where we can avoid EVERY SINGLE CHAIN POSSIBLE if we want, with game/red pill knowledge…except two big chains that guys still put on themselves: legal marriage and having kids.

    We NEED to have kids. That's just how society survives. So we can't say "don't put the kids chain on yourself", we HAVE to look at "okay WITH this chain, how can we still make sure we keep her attracted long-term with low risk etc". Because if you DON'T want kids then you don't have to wear any chains at all, but we're talking about how to get guys to be able to safely have kids and raise them in 2-parent households.

    But LEGAL MARRIAGE?? That's a chain that is VOLUNTARY. You don't HAVE to do that shit. So my point is why ADD an unneccesary chain when you already have the kids chain? Just keep the number of chains to the bare minimum so it's easier to keep attraction long-term.

    "At Christmas and birthdays you may or may not be allowed time with your offspring. You may or may not get to attend parent teacher conferences. You might get lucky and find out the schedule for your kids little league games or dance recitals. If you’re lucky the momma might share with you the child’s report card from school."

    Again you're picturing a scenario where the couple is separated, not living together and raising the kids together. I agree with your rant, being divorced and separated sucks dick, but that's not the arrangement I'm describing as the ideal. I'm describing one that looks EXACTLY like a legal marriage, but without the legal contract signed.

    "All I’m saying that it’s pretty risky to just go make babies and expect shit to be all rainbows."

    Yup I agree. But a legal marriage contract and/or monogamy (espeically when she's only offering a pLTR in her favor thanks to technology and social trends as I've explained), is going to make things MORE risky.

    "My point about kids is similar to yours about marriage. Don’t do it. Enjoy nieces and nephews."

    lol this is my personal current view. But the reality is we're going to have generations of men coming up who will want to have kids. That's just biology. Right now they have NO plan except this broken marriage shit where they think they have to get legally married OR ELSE. I say let's work on new strategies for them, since we have all this understanding of attraction and chick-brains, instead of just sitting on the knoweldge feeling enlightened.

    "Getting the vasectomy was an excellent decision on my part."

    Considering it myself lol Store swimmers in a freezer and get the snip just to stay safe. Will probably do it when my money situation is handled. Been keeping an eye on that VasalGel shit but it's takin forever lol

    @Andy @Blaximus
    "“I lose track in all of the negativity.”

    Blax, you’re the one attaching negative connotations to reality. I know that men here can and will find a way to make it work. That is what we are DOING. Sheesh."

    This lol We're not sitting here emo weeping over the keyboard. We're just talking about what's happening. Untwist your panties…it's like quoting statistics in a discussion about black families/ghetto culture and someone going "OH YOU'RE RACIST OH GOD ALL THIS RACISM I CAN'T TAKE IT LET'S JUST KILL ALL BLACK PEOPLE THEN LIKE YOU GUYS WANT!!!" and it's like, no unclutch your pearls we're just discussing shit lol

    The emotional pushback response is because this is all challenging your emotional beliefs that aren't based on anything but your gut and conditioning you may or may not realize you have. So it feels like negativity and an attack of some kind because we're questioning things that you just "know" to be "true" in your gut.

    @Sun Wukong @stuffinbox
    "Refusing to give up the only leverage you have as a man (“I’ll leave you for younger and hotter if you don’t cut this shit out”) is pretty Red Pill LTR advice in my view. Marriage is by definition the surrender of that option. If society will not have your back in marriage, instead openly telling you it will actively work against you if you get married, then you shouldn’t get married."

    This. The reality is there's not "LTR game". There's no "MMSL game". There's no "DPA". There's not even "pLTR game" or "harem game" if you want to get deep. All of it boils down to "keep triggering her Hypergamy" at the core. That's it.

    Now an LTR will add certain dynamics/restrictions/influences that you have to account for TO keep triggering that Hypergamy. And being married will add other (severe) restrictions. And society changing will add other restrictions (or make things easier, like how it's way easier to get casual sex now). And your mood and what life throws at you will affect your ability to DPA and DHV and run dread and bla bla bla

    But at the end of the day all of those things are just different vehicles to drive in…but DRIVING itself is the same regardless. It's just that that DRIVING can be more difficult or need to be executed in slightly different ways or account for certain other dynamics if you choose to enter a vehicle with a flat tire, or a missing engine, or a cardboard box with wheels drawn on the side, etc VS a brand new ferrari

    "You know you can have and raise kids without a marriage license, right? Humans did it that way for a lot longer than they’ve done it the way you’re suggesting."

    Like I say, this shit is ENTRENCHED in people's minds. That's what I'm trying to put a spotlight on and demonstrate how conditioned those beliefs are and how they're just an illusion that we can work around or change or offer alternatives to.

    @Anonymous Reader
    "This is one of Rollo’s strengths, he doesn’t play “combox police”."

    lol I always picture him sitting there reading these discussions on the edge of his seat squealing "REEEEEEEEEEE" and fucking DYING to jump in and lay the smack down (like the Great Looks Matter War of 2015) thinking "MUST NOT GET INTO ARGUMENTS MUST NOT GET INTO ARGUMENTS" and how it probably kills him to wait so long to formulate his one-liner responses or write up an article about the discussion lol Weโค you Rollo.

    "There are a few slim advantages for the legal marriage."

    Perfect, this is what I wanna hear! Let's look at the benefits. I'm not being an asshole, it's legitimately "ok what are the benefits and can we achieve them in other ways, and if not, if we weigh them against the risks are they worth it?" (ie – sure you get a tax break but what's the cost of the average divorce compared to that)

    "It is widely recognized in different countries for stuff like tax benefits,"

    My biggest comeback for the tax benefits is how much it ACTUALLY saves you compared to divorce costs. I don't know much about the actual numbers but my first impulse thought is I wouldn't want to legally noose myself and make it more difficult to keep triggering Hypergamy (increasing the chance of a divorce) etc to save a few thousand bucks a year. Like I'm okay with paying that extra in taxes for better odds at long-term stability and less consequence if it doesn't pan out. But that's my personal view.

    A lot of things COULD end up costing more to do it the non-legal way…but then the question becomes: would you rather have a 50%+ chance of being divorce raped + alimony etc which could total up to who knows how high along with less ability to keep hand and prevent her leaving you etc, or would you rather pay like $10,000 or have a job that pays a few thousand less per year for the ability to walk away as easily as DisgruntledEarthling did and easier ability to keep hand?

    "sometimes higher salaries directly (for some specific jobs),"

    I know that office culture in general can still view it like "promote the married guy, he's stable and committed and a "good guy" because he's married, and he'll have kids etc that he has to work extra hard to support compared to the single guy who banged our secretary and might bail to travel the world in a couple years", if that's what you're talking about. I have a buddy in an office job who's pretending he has a long-term girlfriend specifically for that reason lol

    But if it's not a legal thing like "pay a guy who shows us a marriage license a higher salary if he checkmarks the "married" box instead of "single"", then could you simply do everything you would do in a marriage WITHOUT legally marrying, to achieve that same higher salary/promotion? ie – have a wedding, wear a wedding ring, have her change her name ot your last name, live together, call her your wife, etc etc but simply not be legally married?

    And COULD you checkmark the "married" box on an application if you're not legally married? Who would even question it? Though maybe it would make a difference in the accounting department for some kind of benefits thing. But then again, she'd probably have benefits from her own job and/or entrepreneurs presumably have some kind of benefits system they use that might be an option.

    "automatic recognition of offspring (which can obviously backfire if you are cucked),"

    lol. This would be one of those "how much would it cost and how much work would it actually be to just manually have your offspring recognized. Like how often does that REALLY come up and could it be dealt with with a couple days of filling out some legal forms or dropping by a place to show a birth certificate or something which is inconvenient but not that big a deal?

    "and in case of death for inheritance etc. Some of these can be obtained through specific arrangements, but I doubt all of them can"

    That's the question. How many of those things need to be done and how many can be done through other means? That's stuff we should look at. What if 90% of them could be handled for a few thousand bucks by a lawyer and the other 10% just meant taking the occasional day off work or filling out a couple forms here and there?

    "and the legal marriage automatically does it saving a bunch of work."

    Maybe DisgruntledEarthling can shed some light on how much work it was to handle a lot of the stuff he handled without a legal marriage contract? IS it a bunch or work, or does it just SEEM like a bunch of work, and/or is it work that we could put a price tag on to hire someone to handle for us (ie – "if you DON'T want to get legally married, you'll have to spend about $2000 on a lawyer who can handle these things for you if you don't want to do them yourself")?

    "Another point is that the legal marriage benefits the lowest earner, so if your wife is working and you go unemployed for a while you could benefit financially for a bit. This is quite the corner case because apparently the odds are that she will likely branch swing relatively quickly in such a situation (and try to make you miserable until she does, most likely)."

    lol ya, I'm talking more for the majority of men out there. Like what plan can we offer all these red pill guys in all the red pill communities as they expand and influence the next generations. Maybe the red pill would be a lot more appealing to blue pill people to check out if we had a solution that said "look we won't JUST get you poon, we can get you a happy life with 2.5 kids and a white pickett fence that your blue pill approach isn't going to get you"

    "Previously I asked if there were good strategies for “demoting” a legal marriage to LTR. You said you don’t see how I wouldn’t get lots of drama."

    Ya. Like I said before, going from casual to committed is her GAINING something. Demoting is her LOSING something, which, if she hasn't EARNED a demotion through bad behavior, is probably going to be drama-city. Now if she cheated on you or something where you had justifiable grounds (in her mind) to demote her, there'd still be drama but probably not as MUCH as just kicking the puppydog out of the blue.

    This is why I want to get this knowledge out to men early…'cause say someone does this whole crazy "don't legally marry her" thing I'm pitching. He can ALWAYS at some point down the road if he decides it'll help him somehow, pull out "okay let's get legally married now", like 10 years in, if he wants. But once you do that there's no going back.

    So why not TRY it withOUT the legal contract first? A free 30-day trial before you make a purchase lol Set a pLTR arrangement, have separate finances and legal paperwork for everything, have kids with her, get a house together, raise the kids for a few years still with separate financial shit, and THEN take stock and look at "do I NEED to sign a legal contract or is this actually working pretty good as it is?" and make the decision THEN.

    "If she wants to stick around, as far as I’m concerned this is our business and I wouldn’t even tell family about it (but there is a good likelihood she would to try to social pressure me, maybe not)."

    Can't remember all the details of your situation, but I would pull an Andy and pitch toward the general direction of you having side poon VS just yanking the divorce plug or hard ultimatums right off the bat. Maybe Andy can chime in here or someone remembers where he had his talks with his wife and found out she was actually pretty cool with the idea of him possibly having side poon. You might find that you're in a similar situation where she actually wouldn't mind that much and not have to go any of these hardcore routes.

    "There isn’t a way to frame this legal divorce as being something good for her (it just isn’t),"

    Again I can't remember the details or if you have kids or your ages etc but do you HAVE to divorce her to get what you want? Like if you just want side poon coudl you simply stay with her but have some girls on the side? Do you NEED to have the whole house to yourself and have her out of there etc? Just stuff to ask yourself before you drop a nuke. Don't make emotional decisions on this, there's no real rush for it, spill your guts here for a while and get some feedback from everyone like Andy did.

    "we forget the disaster scenarios, but they are common. About 3/4 of my friends have daughters who don’t sleep under the same roof as them"

    Now if that 3/4 of your friends had been told up front "look, there's a solid chance that your wife will want to stray at some point, for various reasons and you'll probably end up in a custody battle (that hopefully doesn't get ugly, but it might)…that's just how things work now. Don't legally tie yourself to her, keep your finances separate or hide some money away, and gather evidence constantly from day one that you are the best caregiver possible for the kids to convince a family court and as sneaky as it is collect (or create) evidence on her that shows that she's NOT a good caregiver so that if it DOES come to that, you'll get at LEAST 50% custody if not full custody of your kids because that'll be best for you AND the kids since single mom statistics show that the kids they raise are fucking nightmares.

    I mean, how much better a situation would they be in if someone had give them a nice simple plan like that?

    "You run a solid 50 or 80% chance of bringing a daughter into the world who will have in-house badboy (or at least ‘other dude’) right down the hall, while you’re trying to fall asleep in some distant neighborhood or state. It’s beyond imagining for me."

    Shit would be a nightmare to me.

    "If there is ANY remote chance that someone could legally take my children from me then I don’t make the investment of bringing them into the world. The fact that it is LIKELY that I will lose my children makes it an emotional investment that is fully insane."

    Right, and again the stats are getting worse not better. So what I'm bringing up is what could we do to help reduce the ability of you losing access to your kids so that you have more of a guarantee that you'll be able to be in their lives, ideally full-time, to raise them. 'cause society's answer for that right now is "ehh, get legally tied to her and then roll the dice and hope you have a unicorn". That answer isn't good enough and it's part of why we see MGTOW, MRA, PUAs-in-their-40s etc No one has a solution yet. That will have effects on society long-term after we're gone.

    "The fact that the culture/gov’t actively incentivizes, legislates and glamorizes kidnapping has me very comfortably sitting this one out. I can easily remain shallow, superficial, sensual. I only dive into that narrative and its extraordinary commitment and emotion if the culture/laws have me locked in and protected in that role. It’s the opposite. So…Hand me that passport and I’m off to see the wizard."

    See in a way you're the exact guy I'm bringing this up for. You'd probably LIKE to have kids at some point, but you can't see a clear safe low-risk path to doing it…all you can see is the opposite because the plan being given to you results in 3/4 of your friends living a nightmare. So you'll just check out of the game.

    We know so much about attraction and chick-brains now and it's easier than ever to find out information on the internet and actually calculate legal costs for shit etc, there HAVE to be solutions to some of this that would allow a normal guy like you to go "okay, I like these odds better, I'll give this a chance and reproduce".

    Fuck me, there's like a million more replies to go through and I'm already 500 pages in lol I'm takin a break. Thanks to everyone who's participated so far, this is the kind of thing I wanted to get people talking about back in the Commitment article when I posted that monogamy is dead. Like, now we're actually objectively looking at this shit (for the most part) and pulling back the curtain on marriage/monogamy and really looking at the dynamics of it.

    It may be a negative discussion but I have positive hope for potential solutions to be found…it's just that we can't FIND those solutions when we're too emotionally invested and pearl-clutching to even question tradition and feels.

    Like I said before, this is the only red pill community that really has a good cross-section of guys from PUAs to old guys who have successful long-term marriages, and that actually care about the 2-parent stable household environment to raise kids in (and isn't full of a bunch of race-baiting and politics and trolling and shit lol). Other communities are full of young guys who aren't thinking more than a few years ahead, or old guys who are in a full mental masturbation circle-jerk about how impossible the situation is, or purple pill guys who act red pill but are still going to go follow the traditional route when they find their unicorn they still think is out there that'll buffer them from disaster.

    If there are answers to be found on this subject, this is where they're going to start. Rollo's articles/books on red pill parenting will be useless if we can't find a way to keep guys in their children's lives long-term with better success rates than we're currently seeing and the trends will continue to follow.

    on September 8th, 2016 at 4:55 pm
    Original Link

    @Sun Wukong
    “But even if your Game is as tight as YaReally’s, try interesting a modern young chick in commitment. Go ahead. You’ll be in for a shock. A woman in her prime years is so high on a never ending validation train that she’s sure it will never end. Why should she commit? There’s no incentive to do so. She always branch swings to better, and better is always available before she’s even tired of what she’s got.”

    This. See Blax you hear them say “I wouldn’t give up my social media for that dream guy”, but you don’t hear WHY they won’t. The “why” is what we’re up against. They are conditioned to think they will never hit the wall, Amy Schumer at 45 gets the rich doctor in the end, they have endless offers of commitment and monkey branch higher and higher up the tree in their prime.

    I have fuckbuddies who’ve disqualified doctors and lawyers and rich jacked 6-pack dudes for like one or two errors. My favorite was one who disqualified a doctor because the area of medicine he picked to specialize in wasn’t EXCITING ENOUGH. So she interpreted that as him not having enough ambition. A fucking DOCTOR and she turned him down for such a silly reason. But why wouldn’t she? She has dates lined up anytime she wants with guys as high value or higher than him around the block whenever she wants. If she takes care of herself the attention train won’t stop till 35+. Why would she want to limit her Hypergamous options by settling in her early 20s?

    That’s why those girls look at you funny when you suggest giving up social media. They can’t comprehend any reason TO. It doesn’t compute.

    That’s not negativity. That’s just understanding what we’re dealing with and how best to deal with it.

    “I am fully aware of how society is fucked up. For me, this HAS ALWAYS been so from birth. Society has been an odd thing where people gyrate and look for the next ridiculous hoop to invent.”

    Other men weren’t raised with your insight. They were raised in the bubble of social conditioning convincing them society wasn’t what it was. We’re educating them. If it bothers you, you have a scroll wheel. But we don’t stop teaching children how to do math just because you know how to do math…”OKAY EVERYONE QUIT TALKING ABOUT MATH, BLAXIMUS KNOWS MATH SO THAT MEANS EVERY OTHER GUY MUST KNOW IT, HE’S UPSET WITH ALL THIS MATH TALK, WHO CARES THAT 99% OF EVERYONE ELSE CAN’T DO MATH YET, BLAXIMUS KNOWS, SHUT IT ALL DOWN AND LET’S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING HE APPROVES OF!!” Try putting yourself in other men’s shoes lol

    “Now, what are you going to do?”

    That’s what we’re discussing.

    “This leads to a lot out of wedlock babies. It isn’t clear that scandinavian men avoid the problems of marriage by using these arrangements. Committed relationships w/ kids have issues and changing the names used doesn’t fix them.”

    My argument isn’t that not legally marrying will guarantee you won’t still have problems. Just that:

    1) being able to walk away easier means more likelihood of keeping attraction easier (we know this based on a ton of field testing like MMSL, dread game, jealousy/preselection/etc etc)

    and that 2) if it DOES end up with the same problems a legal marriage had and you still end up splitting, at least you didn’t ALSO get divorce-raped and have to pay lifetime alimony for her to buy new lingerie for her badboy boyfriend who she won’t let marry her because then you’ll be free of alimony and she doesn’t care that you’re working 2 jobs living in your car.

    That’s all. A non-legal marriage can fail just like a legal marriage, but at least a non-legal marriage follows attraction principles better and the consequences if it does fall apart won’t be anywhere near as severe for the man. (plus he’ll have an easier time getting back into the single life because he didn’t stop banging hotties on the side lol)

    “Paul Janka got married”

    Even a lot of PUAs and heavily red pill guys still don’t have an endgame plan beyond “get married I guess?” That’s why I’d like to raise the discussion. Tyler is trying something crazy, Adam Lyons is trying something crazy, Blackdragon has tried some crazy shit, but these are all huge gambles that take years to fully field-test and most guys will fall into their social conditioning to just go along with getting married to not lose the girl.

    @Anonymous Reader
    “When I wrote that provider game is dead, I immediately reflected that the man I know with multiple children is the sole provider for his family.”

    How old is his wife? And how hot is she? And has she been using social media etc since she was in her early teens? Not an attack, these are just important factors in these discussions.

    “So in his case, provider game is not dead. However, his immediate family is wrapped in mulitple layers of fairly traditional cultural structures – extended family nearby, a church that provides a lot of social outlets, and so forth.” “That is, there will be social pressures to remain married and keep any affairs out of sight.”

    Right, a situation like THAT is similar to the “old days” where she had more social conditioning and societal influences like religious/social shaming and masculine/feminine roles etc Like, that’s AWESOME.

    But those communities are getting less and less common. The average random dude in New York isn’t meeting girls like that or living in a situation like that himself. And these influences will eventually sink their tentacles into those communities too, just like EE/Asia chicks are starting to become more like North American chicks.

    The reality is we can’t send 90% of men out into SJF’s farm to all marry his daughters lol

    “Colleges will pass 60 / 40 women / men on the way to 70 / 30, and feminists will say that equality is getting “closer””

    Reminder to you guys who sarge, old and young: find a way to move to a college/university city ASAP lol

    “Not quite sure how the FI will deal with pLTR, most likely guess is something like the law in Vancouver, BC where cohabitation for a specified period of time = marriage, full stop. So any man who doesn’t want to be “married” in the 2.0 sense will have to keep an eye on the calendar. One response to that would be cumulative: “John, you lived with Jane a total of 24 months over the last 5 years so you two are married if she wants it”, maybe.”

    I suspect the common law will ramp up in response. But two solutions so far: 1) you can, in advance, legally write up a document together that states you don’t want to be common law married that’ll prevent it…it’s the couples who don’t take pro-active prevention of it that get sucked into it, and 2) you can break up a month before the cutoff date and then maybe get back together etc not sure but there has to be some kind of loopholes to exploit. That and not moving in together etc works fine for just dating, but I think for an actual long term relationship with kids you would have to do the legal “no thanks” route.

    But like, how many guys even know that’s an OPTION right now? Big Al didn’t, his reason for getting married was “well they’ll just common law me anyway so I might as well”. And that’s a guy visiting red pill sites who said he “did his homework”. Now the average guy…?

    “Women are keeping all their options open at all times.”

    This is my point. Society has morphed to where you can’t tell her to delete her Facebook or you’re abusive/overreacting/controlling/jealous/insecure etc so she can continue to gather orbiters and keep her options open, while YOU are shamed into giving up your options (and often do so in good faith, thinking you’re entering a monogamous relationship and then feeling like something is off when you’re working on the computer and she’s sitting on the couch lol’ing at txts on her phone).

    “Older guys aren’t out of touch with technology, per se; they just don’t have the reference of EXCLUSIVELY dating/Gaming/having LTR’s with women that are fully immersed in this technology, because it came onto the scene long after their time.”

    Yup. I don’t like self-surveys, we all know that, and Sentient threw a fuss about me accepting Blax’s self-surveying. But he doesn’t get that we HAVE tons of guys who’ve been trying to get LTRs to work these days and they’re all reporting this shit. Blax’s self-surveying is about the best we’re going to get for field-testing out of the old guys around here, but those of us infield and with friends infield etc are all noticing these trends because ya you “hang out with kids a lot”, but us guys in red pill communities reporting this stuff are the ones having a girl move into our apartment or dating her “monogamously” for a few years out of the NRE stage and trying to get them to tone down the social media shit etc

    “And it is a game changer. Can any self-respecting man knowingly restrict his options in 2016 and beyond, with the knowledge that any woman he restricts his options for will never, ever reciprocate? That she will, in fact, keep her options wide open?”

    This was the point of my monogamy is dead post. I want guys to understand this. They are NOT being offered monogamy even if it’s labelled that way and even if the girl THINKS she’s offering monogamy. She’s not, she’s keeping her options open because of technology and working with men and having men in her social circles. ESPECIALLY if she’s a <25yo 8+/10 (because we aren't trying to help guys settle down with trolls lol).

    "And as Ya pointed out, women consider long-distance, online affairs as REAL OPTIONS, compared to men who generally don’t unless they’re crazy desperate and delusional."

    This. They legitimately think those guys are options because they ARE. That guy will either be rich enough (since she's going to branch upward in her flirting) to fly to her or fly her to him, or thirsty enough to find the money to do that, and she's had a lifetime of guys going out of their way to chase her or give her stuff so it's totally normal to her that a guy would fly her to his country to chase a romantic little connection. If I had what looked like an HB10 in her photos ('cause the guys only put up highlight reel profiles and put on a front that they're offering the world etc) offering me a flight to visit her, I'd sure as shit take it lol Especially if my wife has gotten fat or I'm bored or mad at her.

    "Women are not going to get off of Facebook, or Twitter, or Instagram, or Snapchat, or whatever else is out there."

    Those things have literally exponentially increased her hindbrain's ability to achieve its biological goals. They're like the helmet Professor-X puts on that takes his normal psychic powers and enhances them to read the minds of everyone in the entire world. Why would Professor-X give that shit up?? lol

    "Keeping that in mind, it’s hard for me to even imagine a man “cheating” nowadays. How can a man be capable of “cheating” if he’s not even getting 100% commitment from a woman in the first place? What is there to cheat on?"

    Exactly. The only thing he's breaking is his word that he gave in a false lopsided contract under good faith not understanding the terms of the contract. I say let's make them aware of this en masse so that they stop signing that false contract blind.

    "At the very least, men in “committed” relationships should be heavily utilizing Dread, which is, guess what? An exact parallel to what women are doing with social media."

    Yup. Even me offering a girl a one-sided pLTR where I'm allowed to bang other girls and she's not, it's still only EVEN, because I can't make her get rid of all her social media and male friends and quit her job with male coworkers, so as "abusive" as my offer IS, it's still just EVENING the playing field with us, because she will still have her options brewing in the background for an emergency.

    "If you’re not going to fuck other women, at least sexually escalate to the point where there’s a constant air of slight sexual tension with them. And with as many women as possible."

    A lot of guys (including yourself probably) won't do this or even FLIRT with other girls because they've signed a lopsided false contract that makes them feel shamed/guilty for flirting…when their girl is doing EXACTLY THAT on her phone, no fucks given. And that same girl will shame him if she catches him, while disregarding her own flirting with orbiters as "oh it's just harmless"

    This is not what "monogamy" was supposed to look like lol The label means nothing now. Monogamy is dead.

    "What Rollo is doing, for example, is the male version of social media: being around real, live women and entertaining all of them as potential options. It doesn’t mean he’s going to utilize any of those options. But he COULD."

    Right, and that's PERFECT. Rollo has a GREAT lifestyle for keeping a slight tinge of passive dread going, he's said himself that he gets good sex when he has to go do these bottle model events and shit.

    But Joe the Cop and Bob the Accountant and Pete the Plumber don't have glamourous jobs like that. And they enter a monogamous contract and feel shameful flirting with other girls. Which trickles down into them slowly losing their charisma and belief that they can get other options, etc etc

    "I think it’s pretty clear DPA needs some reducing."

    lolol thanks for taking apart the DPA stuff. That's why I said earlier ok what are the steps for doing those things. Because those steps will just be the steps PUA lays out. So why not just call that stuff what it's already labelled in PUA. Needless re-labelling and trying to metaphorically trademark some shit but just makes shit confusing for newbies.

    "My “rebuttals” were ridiculous, because I don’t disagree with how you recommend DPA as frame or hand, but defined as above, are not specific or “actionable”."

    This. DPA is great, but 1) it's not an actionable plan which is what men need to learn otherwise it's the same as "just be cool bro" or "just be attractive" which tells guys nothing, and 2) it's already taught as other labels in the PUA community. No reason to muddy the waters.

    @Anonymous Reader @sfer
    "The issue of “out of wedlock” about paternity (which doesn’t matter in the modern world, the “father” is whoever she says) and stability for raising children. The stability part is clearly an issue."

    With regards to Scandinavian shit, if they're fully entrenched in feminist stuff then it stands to reason that even without legal marriage, their ability to be like Blaximus or execute DPA or have good "LTR game" or dread game or red pill shit etc etc is probably pretty compromised…so the failure rate of their relationships may still be high just because they may be more of a pussy blue pill culture in general under those influences lol

    "House husbands are becoming more common, and that fits in nicely with open hypergamy."

    This. Hubby at home and she goes off to her HR job at an air conditioned office surrounded by Mad Men wannabes in suits who all flirt with her because their wives aren't there (then ignore her at the office christmas party when their wives are around lol). Nice little office fling with a guy who looks similar enough to her beta house hubby that he won't dare to accuse her of being a SLUTTY WHORE by DARING to request a paternity test, and she's set.

    Probably just a coincidence how many taken girls who try to rawdog it with me's boyfriends/husbands I see look similar to me (hair color, race, general look, etc). ๐Ÿ˜›

    "Maybe 20 years down the line if men are divorcing their higher-earning wives for cash and prizes, we’ll suddenly see a new found interest in reforming family court."

    It's never an issue until it directly affects women. I'm hoping the gay marriage stuff helps boost that along. One guy getting divorce-raped by another guy or a girl getting divorce-raped by another girl, they're gonna raise a lot more stink than the straight guy getting divorce-raped by his wife and just taking it because he's supposed to.

    And even then I figure they'll go with more punishment before they try more reward. Like MGTOWs predicting a "single guy tax" etc

    "*Performing the appropriate skill building drills, in a deliberate, focused manner."

    To relate the analogy back to pickup: this is why we don't tell guys just go out and party and see what happens. We give them specific skill-building drills and have them focus on aspects of game and write their Field Reports so we can diagnose them and help tweak their shit etc We're sending them out to focus on practicing being alpha long enough that they become alpha, not to learn how to fake it really well.

    But as Corey Worthington etc show, even being an alpha doesn't guarantee you'll STAY an alpha.

    "In another sense, becoming a guy like Rollo has ALWAYS been supremely difficult, and WILL ALWAYS be supremely difficult, and nothing has changed in that aspect since the dawn of humanity."

    And Rollo is great. But the bottle models at his events have access via social media to guys that make Rollo look like just some scrub. They didn't have that 20+ years ago, not to the degree they do now. That doesn't mean they won't be attracted to him, but it means that him getting them to reject all those options for 40+ years, even as pimp as he IS, is going to be a tricky tightrope to walk at BEST, for a guy as successful as Rollo.

    So what chance does Joe Accountant have trying to play that "who's got a bigger dick and better 6-pack and more money in the bank" game, to keep that smokin hot <25yo 8+/10? He MIGHT do it, but the odds are very much stacked against him for pulling it off…so don't legally marry or enter a relationship where your attraction is hampered (like not having other girls to bang).

    "But once that is through your head, and you really get that, it’s more productive to focus energy in a positive, constructive direction: i.e., toward being the absolute best man you can be."

    Definitely. And just don't sign a legal contract or promise monogamy to a girl who has social media, works in a male space, or has male friends in her social circles, while working toward being the absolute best man you can be.

    But right now, men don't KNOW this shit. That's why a red pill guy like Big Al is getting married without even looking into commonlaw shit. That's why half the red pill community still thinks it's going to find a unicorn to settle down with etc etc

    @Sun Wukong @Blaximus
    "See this is where I disagree and probably why I don’t see negativity where you do. Not in terms of “society is fucked up”. It simply is what it is."

    This. This isn't a negative situation to me. This is a DIFFICULT situation, but that's different. This isn't something bleak and unsolvable, it's just the rules of the game are not currently in favor of the old strategy, so it's time for a new strategy.

    This isn't any more negative than if they changed some rules in baseball so that a set of old plays everyone used to rely on no longer worked. It's just acknowledging the rules of the game have changed and we have to come up with new strategies.

    There's no judgement call on whether it's good or bad. It just is what it is.

    You interpret it as negative because it's the death of something you believe in with your feels. We don't have that same conditioned attachment (or don't anymore) so we aren't viewing this as negative.

    PUA from day one has never been about changing society or crying and being negative…it's been about "what are the rules laid out in front of us, and how can we excel within them or loophole around them to win this?" Whenever the field changed, we adapted to the changes, and will continue to do so, like in discussions like this. We don't cry about the field or make judgements about it, it just is what it is and we can extrapolate and project trends we're seeing to prepare for future adaptation.

    "Marriage is just a poor choice for men right now. It conveys absolutely no tangible benefits that can’t be had outside of it while placing many damaging constraints on them. As a rational decision it makes sense for men to simply avoid it. So that’s part of what I do about it: avoid marriage and advise other men against it."

    No one since I asked has provided any benefit from marriage that you can't get without the legal-contract except the stuff about legal paperwork and I'd still like to hear from DisgruntledEarthling what sort of effort/costs were involved in handling a lot of that stuff. And we need to research more into that to quantify the costs/benefits.

    But otherwise no one has made an actual argument FOR marriage or agreeing to monogamy. It's important to stress that.

    "’sex on tap’ is actually pretty cool though…lol…and efficient…plus there’s the whole ‘no STDs to worry about’ thing in play…lol. but mostly those things are all available with pLTRs in your favor… "

    Right. We know from the deadbedrooms guys that legal marriage doesn't guarantee the "sex on tap" thing. Hell, I probably have easier access to regular pussy with a handful of fuckbuddies (bringing their A-game sexually) than a lot of married guys getting their yearly duty-sex birthday blowjob get.

    And the STD risk isn't THAT significant if you wrap your shit up, and a guy who's wife cheats on a girls' night out, vacation, etc can bring home an STD too, so again legal marriage doesn't prevent that.

    There's blowing your load inside her but a legally married wife can forget her birth control or whatever and a guy who's had a vasectomy can do that with any girl and you could be with a girl who you're WITH but not legally married under a contract to and she can be on birth control for you to blow your load in her etc etc So even that doesn't hold up as a "you need legal marriage to get access to this benefit" point.

    I'm deconstructing these "benefits of marriage/monogamy" things because I want to show that they are socially conditioned myths and illusions.

    "and i understand what Sentient is advocating too…lol… he doesn’t want men to ‘miss out’ on the possibility of having a solid family life experience, just bc some dude on the interwebs says legal marriage is gonna get you divorce raped in the future"

    Again I have to point out that if you don't sign the legal paper and you simply choose NOT to exercise your "slaying other poon" option that you have available to you (except on trips out of town etc), you will have the exact same "solid family life experience" that Sentient has. With a wedding and kids and white picket fence and everything if you like.

    "the benefits of ‘monogamy’ are mostly on the non-sex side… where you live most of your life…lol…"

    Ok let's go through them:

    "having a fun companion around all the time is kind of cool"

    There's no reason you can't have that by living with a woman you don't legally marry and don't promise monogamous commitment to (a one-sided pLTR in your favor).

    "and especially wrt to raising kids (as shown by all those ‘two-parents are best’ studies)…"

    Yup, agreed. But no reason you can't have a fun companion around to raise kids with living together in a house with a white pickett fence without signing a legal document or promising monogamy.

    "and bc you actually WANT a girl that is a good mom/companion bc that gives your kids the best chance in life… and that’s the best thing for your kids… to have that feeling of safety and security…"

    I agree completely. None of that requires a legal contract or agreeing to monogamy.

    "which is where the majority benefit of ‘monogamy’ comes from"

    lol but none of those things require monogamy and monogamy doesn't guarantee any of those things.

    "bc IF you have a pLTR, there is always the ‘threat’ of ‘the family’ getting split apart (which is where the girl’s arousal/dread comes from…lol…and which is always in conflict with kids’ ‘security’ on some level)… "

    The kids don't have to know a thing. Are Sentient's kids damaged because he fucks around on his own time away from home? Nope. He can have the same arrangement as far as the kids are concerned without legal marriage or a monogamous commitment (and it would be less "cheaty"). Are Rollo's kids damaged because he does bottle service with hot models he could cheat with but chooses not to? Nope, and he could do exactly that without a legal marriage contract or monogamous agreement, he could simply just choose NOT to bang them.

    It should have zero effect on the kids except that they see their mom putting in effort to please their dad.

    "from the kids’ perspective that’s what they see (less stability), bc of THEIR social conditioning telling them that if dad has a gf (or 3…lol), then your parents are going to split up…"

    Just be discreet. I doubt Sentient brought that stripper home to introduce to his kids. I doubt if Rollo was banging those bottle models, he'd bring them home to introduce them to his kids as his girlfriends.

    There's no reason for the kids to have any idea. Daddy and Mommy love eachother and when Daddy's away on business or whatever Daddy does whatever Daddy does, kids don't need to know anything just like they don't need to know.

    "BUT kids are resilient…lol… so, there is a way to minimize that effect, we just haven’t gotten there yet, bc we are still ‘negotiating’ the playing field…lol…"

    And that's part of what we should be discussing. LOTS of "non-traditional couples" have talks with their kids about this stuff. Like the poly community has probably got these discussions down pat into routines that we could be applying as a fallback plan if the discretion doesn't work etc

    "you trust your game to get her buy-in on getting pregnant/having the kid (bc you WILL need solid game for her to see ‘baby’ as a better choice than ‘career’/’keeping my options open’ (even if she keeps working…and especially if she is <25…)"

    I think this will be the big one to deal with. I'm leaning towards speeding up the vetting process and getting her preggers while still IN the NRE stage…in the NRE stage she's going to be more open to stuff like that. Once she LEAVES the NRE stage, she's not likely to sacrifice her career, but IN the NRE stage she might be open to it. Which means teaching guys how to speed up the vetting process instead of spending 8 years with the girl before finally having kids, when you're 4 years out of the NRE stage and she's bored with you and the relationship and in her early 30s thinking she has one more chance to find that rich doctor on Tinder.

    "don't forget the paternity test"

    lol mandatory.

    "once the toddler gets to pre-school, you either get her pregnant again or take a break"

    This will be one of the key moments for sure. Once the drama of the baby wears off, she's got no job (or a simple job) and at home bored and the NRE is wearing off etc

    "either way, expect her to shit test harder… bc she has to double-up on her 'sureness' of your alpha-tude to have another kid with you/stay with you…"

    Agreed, probably a likely scenario. Plus she's going to be approaching 30 and getting a sense that the wall is coming, where it's not too late to ditch you to monkey branch up to a rich doctor to have her second kid with. After she passes the wall, she's probably a lot less likely to have and chase options, but hitting 30 will be that key "I have one more chance for a baby in me probably, and I have a lot of orbiters who love a hot 28-32yo and are promising me the world still…is this guy I'm with REALLY the best I can do or is it better to trade up while I can? Do I take the prize or see what's inside the mystery box?"

    "also, just expect her to 'leave' at some point… probably for an orbiter… then, come back (like scray pointed out…)."

    I think this is the biggest thing I wanted to get across. We may have to accept that with the amount of temptations they have now, and how they need to interact with men to determine whether they're legit alphas or not, and how good other men have gotten at FAKING that they're alpha in their profiles and learning some basic game out of Maxim and shit, she may NEED to go explore a few options.

    Once she goes on a few shitty Tinder dates, has a few fun girls' nights out that end with her disappointed or drunk and lonely, spends a few nights missing you with you not responding to her texts, compares other guys to you and, since you're freezing her out AND she knows you're probably banging other hotter younger girls, your value stays high to her…

    After all that, she's probably going to come back. Now the question is, is it better to wait for her to get so bored of you that she initiates the eat pray love break and those other guys seem more appealing? Or, as crazy as it sounds, would it be strategically better odds-wise to dump HER the second you sense her looking at other branches, forcing her out into loneliness before she was prepared with another branch lined up and fully bored of the relationship, and she's still got attraction for you (taking away the toy she still likes VS waiting for her to get bored of it and discard it)?

    "fifth, take her back… or not…"

    This'll be key. Each guy will vary on this one. But there are ways to have discussions etc where you can say "look I'm mad at you right now but I still care about you and I just need a break right now…but if you have sex with another guy I don't think I can ever take you back" and try to stack the odds in your favor that she won't just go suck a bunch of dicks raw lol You can't guarantee it, but if you're dumping her while she's still attracted enough, you might be able to influence her enough to not go on a sex rampage for a few months till you take her back and have your movie moment "I miss you babe" get back together (giving her a nice big emotional rollercoaster story to tell people about True Love).

    Buuut, she might also go off the rails especially if you let her get bored and then SHE initiates the eat pray love, and you may not be able to look at her the same way or take her back depending on your personal views/feelings. That has to be taken into consideration for each guy.

    Also THIS is something the kids will definitely notice lol So there's that to factor into it too. Say it's just a 3 month freezeout break…a kid in preschool would probably not even remember that shit happened, I can barely remember anything before age like 5. OR the flip side a kid who's 10+ might be old enough to handle it (though he'd ask WAY more questions).

    So maybe the timeline is something like:

    Learn game and play the field and work on your career and SMV etc till you're 30+ bare minimum, then vett girls fast in their early 20s, if you survive a year or two dating/vetting a hot 21yo in a pLTR situ, fuck it, while you're in the NRE stage knock her up ("by accident" even) and move in together without legally marrying or being monogamous (baby I told you from the start that I'm not wired that way but I love you and will be there for you and our kid bla bla).

    When she's around 25-26, before the kid is going to be too affected by it, pick a reason to dump her (tell her it's because of her addiction to social media/orbiters lol so she may do that shit less when you get back together) and dump her with a hard freezeout for 3 months. She'll probably be too sad to go blow a football team, she'll go on a couple sad Tinder dates and be miserable and miss you and compare you to them. Then tell her you miss her and get back with her…the kid is young enough to just remember some vacation he spend with mommy where she was sad a lot lol

    Now you've got a 27yo who's learned that life without you sucks ass, and because you've taken her back she's back into the NRE stage again…celebrate getting back together by knocking her up again lol Now she's kept busy till the next kid is in preschool while the first kid his hitting puberty and dealing with all THAT drama and she's too busy to realize she's passing the wall or bother with social media all day.

    In the end when the second kid is in school she's around 32yo and been through an emotional rollercoaster with you and got 2 kids and you've presumably stayed awesome all that time because you were banging poon on the side (or choosing not to, whatever) and the dread kept her staying attractive for you so you're motivated to be attractive for her etc etc and maybe just maaaaaybe you've got a pretty decent shot at this whole thing.

    All without legal marriage or promising her monogamy (whether you choose to act on those options or not).

    Anyone got any thoughts on a plan like that?

    on September 8th, 2016 at 7:05 pm
    Original Link

    “(side note all of them are UMC and are used to being around intelligent people, so that is where the quality if intelligence comes from–it is a proxy for ability, but I digress.)”

    Honest question because you always wave your UMC dick around like it has any relevance: what types of jobs/education/lifestyle class do you think the girls we’re casually fucking have? Are you picturing us banging a bunch of McDonald’s employees that sleep on mattresses after running away from broken falling apart homes? lol I’ve fucked lots of UMC girls with rich parents and neurowhatever science majors/degrees and med/law/pharma/etc students/professionals and shit. They’re still dumb compared to men because they’re girls but like, what exactly do you think we’re fucking when we go to the same EDM festivals as your daughters? lol

    ““Do the parents say, sure no problem it’s a new world disorder and marriage is broken anyway, you don’t need to get married to raise my grandchildren?””

    Ideally lol and then they could teach their daughter about choosing your partner daily instead of being obligated to choose them and locking them into a contract to negotiate desire and how silly that notion is and how if you have to contractually threaten someone to stay with you it’s probably not a great relationship to begin with…But they won’t tell her that lol

    “How should the four old married guys proceed to counsel their daughter?”

    Well we know daughters never go against their father’s wishes when they’re swept up in emotion, that’s not a trope for a reason at all lol

    But in all seriousness: what your story boils down to is basically advising your daughter to refuse to settle for less than what’s best for her.

    Cool. But so why the pushback when we advice young men to refuse to settle for less than what’s best for THEM?

    At the end of the day your daughter has an expiry date. She needs a man more than a man needs her. You can advise her to turn down the offer of a man who will 99% take care of her in a perfect relationship but just not sign that legal contract, and hope that super-Blax rides up to marry her. But in that Mexican Standoff the guy is risking nothing compared to her.

    Lets propose the exact same scenario back to you, but make your daughter 32 years old.

    Still single, no kids or anything yet, because you haven’t approved of a man yet. And that same guy comes along offering her the same deal, in that intelligent and well-versed way.

    What would your advice to her be? She’s got a few years before the chance of her kids having down syndrome etc will start increasing exponentially and less suitors are knocking on her door. Does that change what you and the 4 old men would advise her with that same man offering that same deal?

    “Right. And getting back to a bit of earlier stuff, that goes for an unlicensed marriage as well. A woman changing her surname is no big legal deal. In most Anglo places all she has to do is make the proper notifications that her name has been changed, just as if the marriage had been licensed. A women is expected to change her surname at least once. It’s SOP.

    So long as there is no intent to defraud there will be no illegality involved.”

    Quoting this to make sure it’s seen. So again, another “benefit” to marriage that doesn’t require legal marriage. Although I don’t know anything about the legal issues if it came down to government forms or something you had to fill out, without a legal marriage contract.

    @Sun Wukong
    “The majority of chicks I’ve met who babble about marriage don’t really want a marriage. They want a wedding. They’ve never given a thought to what a successful marriage would actually take, probably because society already has them covered.”

    lolol THIS.

    “Now in the real world what happens is she gets the advice to not take that deal because girls good, boys bad. The guy is defaulted to being an asshole (even if he’s a great guy) for insisting on avoiding marriage. Succumbing to the male sexual strategy is succumbing to toxic masculinity and therefore evil. She bails on him as she’s got a million options waiting in the wings thirsty enough to accept an advantage to her arrangement. She marries one of her options after The Wall, stays in touch with the original guy, and maybe swings back around to fuck him occasionally. She has her cake and eats it too.”

    That escalated quickly lol but not an inaccurate guess.

    “As such, she can’t afford her Beta coming to understand that his SMV is well above her own so she tosses him softball shit tests to make him feel like he’s in frame control.”

    Insights like this are why Iโค you.

    "A lot of men (Betas) never realize their SMV peak years, but more so they fail to acknowledge that, by that time, they generally far outclass their spouse’s SMV and her own decline began 10 years before he reached his."

    Yup, the goal of society is to get men who WILL have high-SMV, locked down with girls who will be losing their SMV before the guys achieve that high-SMV so that when they achieve it they're already providing for a girl who's losing hers.

    My buddies and I constantly joke about how "why didn't anyone tell us how many girls would want to suck our dicks back when we were students that couldn't get laid to save our lives?!" We were all blindsided by how much girls want us in our 30s. Especially as cool social outgoing guys with no divorce/kids/etc baggage.

    That's also part of why I almost CAN'T mack girls in their late 20s early 30s…because those girls see me as a massive prize compared to the other guys my age that they're used to who all come with a ton of baggage. The 25yo’s see “potential husband material if I can hook him” and I get more bullshit drama to deal with.

    But nobody told me I would have ANY SMV back when I was a chode in my early 20s lol

    “I only advise against Fear and Hype as part of the equation in men’s decisions.”

    Is a CEO “afraid” and “hyping” when he looks at a lopsided business contract and decides not to sign it because it comes with a statistically increasing probability of destroying the company? No, he’s just being smart. He doesn’t sit there going “I’m so saaad about this this suuuuck waaayyy NO COMPANIES CAN EVER SUCCEED” like you’re implying. He’s just dealing with the numbers and making smart strategic decisions.

    “There are ZERO guarantees either way. Commenters appear to me to want iron clad assurances. That shit’s CRAZY to me.”

    No, this is an exaggeration. It’s like saying “POKER PLAYERS WANT IRON CLAD ASSURANCES THEIR CARDS WILL WIN, THERE’S ZERO GUARANTEES EITHER WAY!!!!” No, there are patterns and probabilities and if you learn them you can statistically tilt the odds of you winning in your favor. You can’t guarantee it, but Phil Helmuth is not playing as risky a game as a newbie who’s never sat down at a poker table before.

    Phil doesn’t say “oh no I’m so sad these cards suck it’s so negative”, he goes “ok these cards I was dealt are not statistically likely to do well, and when I see the flop and how other people are betting I can tell that these cards are very unlikely to win, so I will fold them”. No emotion involved (lol probably should’ve used someone other than Phil for the no emotion involved analogy)

    Your argument boils down to “you can’t guarantee you’ll win 100% of the time at poker so just don’t read any books and close your eyes and play your cards blind because FUCK IT” lol that’s not a good solution, that’s an emotional one.

    “The fact that a man would even question ” what about the women that won’t take your name..” is very odd to me. There seems to be a serious lack of vetting skills on the most basic of levels.”

    What if I told you 99.999% of women that men meet won’t take their name (that’s not the case but this is just a thought experiment). What is your advice to those men? Vett them all out and just die alone without reproducing? Is that an acceptable solution to you, for millions of men to do that?

    OR, would it better in that scenario to go “okay, well that’s a tough spot, but you can’t all just NOT reproduce, so let’s look at options to make the best of this situation”?

    “Whenever men attempt to explain issues via a broad brushing and sweeping reaction to something perceived to be an issue, that is a negative reaction.”

    You are the only one broad-brushing when you exaggerate our arguments to argue against. No one is using absolutes (lol). But you’re so emotionall invested in this that when we say “statistically this is unlikely to happen” you get your panties in a twist and go “FINE THEN I GUESS IT’S JUST IMPOSSIBLE OK NO ONE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN THEN YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT AHHHHHHHHHH” and we all go “wtf Blax?”

    Like Andy says: “Is anyone actually saying that? That’s not what I’m thinking. That’s not the vibe I’m getting from anyone here” and Anonymous Reader says “Who is saying that? Please point to some poster and his words. Thanks.”

    “… and there’s nothing that can be done about problem X. It is unsolvable”

    No one has said it’s unsolvable, just that it’s very difficult to solve, to the point where statistically and odds-wise, it might not be a wise choice to purse that option. Shitty cards CAN win a poker hand, but it would be better to have alternative plays besides “THROW ALL MY CHIPS IN ON SHITTY CARDS BECAUSE AGHGHGHGHHHH”

    “That’s why it rankles me to hear that men just can’t do anything about anything”

    The only thing I’ve said absolutely is that hot <25yo 8+/10 girls in most cities come with social media and/or orbiters and/or males in their social circles and/or males at their work place. There's very little evidence to the contrary on those points. That doesn't mean nothing can be done, but it means the odds are not as good as they were pre-tech.

    You are the only one turning that into "OH SO THEN IT'S IMPOSSIBLE YOU'RE ALL SO NEGATIVE".

    "I don’t get how guys think that monogamy is like cutting off your dick. Lmao. It is indeed a choice. Pssuy is always right around the next corner if that’s what I want. My penis has no idea what monogamy is."

    Then you have "mongamy by choice", not obligation. Which is what we are encouraging. Don't promise monogamy in a way where it can be used against you if you break it, because she will always have guys trying to get in her pants. BE monogamous if you CHOOSE to, but don't PROMISE it and sever all your other options and attack legal consequences to that.

    "You can always walk the fuck away."

    Except if you DON'T sign a legal contract or have kids, you can walk away easily. But if you DO sign a legal contract and have kids, you can't walk away easily. This is basic logic dude. It's a lot harder to walk away from a girl if that means your daughter will be raised by a single mom with other men passing through her life in another part of the country while you're working 2 jobs to support her mom and her new boyfriend she's being made to call Daddy.

    "If yaReally states something like ” all women have a million orbiters and tons of social media and she will cheat on you because she has all of this temptation and you can’t ” Alpha ” your way out of it, so we need to find ways to get around it and accept that technology rules the planet and there’s nothing a guy can do ….”"

    Good thing I've never said that lol What I HAVE actually said is that <25yo 8+/10 women come with social media, orbiters, etc and those very heavily increase the odds of her cheating on you and it's significantly more difficult to "alpha" your way out of that so we need to find ways to increase men's odds of successfully navigating this direction society has shifted in and accept that technology will never go away it will only progress as it has exponentially since it started and you are not realistically going to get a girl raised with technology to give that technology up.

    The negativity is your own negative spin on what I'm saying. And it feels negative to you because it's challenging your beliefs of how things just "ARE" in your gut feels, just like a religious person in a debate about the existance of God feels personally attacked or like the people questioning God's existance are being negative etc because they're just emotionally invested in their beliefs with the other people are just having a discussion.

    You are the only one interpreting any of this as "there's nothing a man can do". Multiple people have pointed this out to you now.

    @Anonymous Reader
    "Agreed and that’s part of vetting. No way a man should get very far down the road without setting out clear boundaries, that’s one of them. But try telling a thirsty, Blue Pilled, Beta that. At the age of 32 he finally, finally has a girl (29.9999) who will settle, er, settle down with him. He doesn’t want to spook this unicorn. So he agrees"

    Yup. Got a red pill buddy who had his first girlfriend. Together for 5+ years without living together. Asked him if they've talked about relationships shit. He wants a traditional housewife, she's expressely stated she doesn't want to be one. I'm like dude, you guys aren't compatible. But he kept it going for a couple more years 'cause she was his first real girlfriend and he pictured having kids with her even though they were incompatible with the rest of it.

    Guys in monoLTRs fall into scarcity much easier than a guy not promising monogamy and keeping other girls on the side.

    "What I am saying is here’s a chess game in mid play. You cannot move the game back, where do you go from here? None of my suggested moves are “let the clock run out and lose by default.”"

    lol this is a good analogy too. Blax's "just vet them ALL" is letting the clock run out, millions of men not reproducing. I don't accept that. I say we look at the pieces on the board and discuss alternative strategies like the one I proposed in my last comment. Is it perfect, no, but it's discussion fodder we can work on and ideally field test (first stage is mass pLTRs lol).

    "incentives matter… trends matter… and the FI isn’t going to ‘just change’…lol…"

    lol this. That's my point. It's like, I'm an asshole for bringing this up and annoying everyone with it but what else are we doing exactly with all this knowledge? Sitting around stroking eachother's dicks about how enlightened we are? Saving a couple close family members? We have all this knowledge, and EVERYONE is in agreement that the 2-parent stable household is prime for raising healthy kids in. And every stat across the board shows things getting WORSE not BETTER.

    …so why such resistance to even talking about the subject? What does anyone expect to happen, that we all sit here bragging about how red pill we are for another 10-20 years, then kick the bucket and guys just keep walking off to the slaughter as the FI continues the trends its on?

    If Mystery had gone to the seduction forums and been like "hey I have this system I've been field testing" and everyone was like "Dude you just have BE YOURSELF man" "don't bring that negative shit here you're saying you have to demonstrate VALUE oh GOD THAT'S SO NEGATIVE MAN, men have ALWAYS had to struggle I've known that since I was a kid man just cut out this negative talk" "look man I once got with this girl by just being cool that's all anyone needs to know man", where would millions of men who've swallowed the red pill since then be?

    Look at Japan. The women there aren't turning around and becoming amazing catches because the grasseaters have bowed out of the game lol They just view those guys as broken hammers and still chase the top of their Hypergamy. Why would things here be any different down the road when we don't have any better solution for men than Japanese guys have? Bow out completely, vett them all out, or roll the dice in a game massively stacked against you. Not great options.

    What kind of world do you think your guys' kids and grandkids are going to grow up in, in a world where the majority of kids are raised in broken homes by single moms? We already have examples of that and it ain't pretty but at least it's mostly kept to specific areas/communities…what happens when that's widespread with the trends we're looking at?

    Time to come up with solutions.

    "Just crack open a beer, sit poolside, do your own thing, and have fun with ’em."

    Legit question because you represent the young PUA end of the spectrum: what are your thoughts on having kids/reproducing and raising kids in a stable 2-parent household? Is that something you want to do? How do you envision that looking or happening? Do you want or plan to reproduce and if so what kind of scenario do you envision that happening in?

    The being single game is easy, just chill poolside and have fun. But to raise kids in a stable 2-parent household, that's trickier.

    "We still have not a good idea of the advantages for a guy to get married in this day and age."

    Not a single answer from anyone in 2 pages why it's worth the risks that can't be countered (or may be countered, we gotta look into it more) with alternative means.

    "I’m talking about being afraid to fail and having it hinder and stunt you in LIFE."

    I don't think anyone is recommending that lol We're all waiting to hear what we're being hindered and stunted FROM by not marrying or promising monogamy. No answers so far.

    "In both situ the results are same (you lose a chick) but in the second one you keep your skills up, and are self-sufficient pussy-wise."

    And in the pLTR she's more likely to come back (if you want her) because you kept your value up being a boss the whole time, triggering all sorts of preselection and dread and having to keep on your game to attract other girls, and the guys she meets will seem lame and boring compared to you. VS the mono guy who fell into scarcity and became boring to her.

    I dunno, I like those odds better personally lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    "The phone / car interface has moved on quite a bit. Looks like it’s easy now to do voice-to-text via the car/phone unit, so now one more bit of total 24/7 communication is in place" "Maximal, total, constant electronic babysitting."

    ya dude my buddies with expensive cars show me that shit and it's surreal to me. I grew up turning a window crank by hand lol Combine that with stuff like bluetooth speaker setups and easy TV/cpu connectivity etc and you can be engaged with technology 24/7 even in situations where, in the past, you wouldn't be able to.

    And you wanna tell a girl "I'm taking away this thing that's babysat you and entertained you for 10 years and I'm going to bet half my finances and custody of my kids that I can keep you as entertained 24/7 for 40+ years in that babysitter's absence"? Not great odds in my opinion lol

    "Look around in any restaurant including some upscale, UMC hangouts and see how many people under 50 are on their phone, have their phone on the table, just put it down, or are hover-handing over it."

    Ya my buddy was trying to catch eye-contact with a girl and he was like "dammit she won't even look up from her phone ahhhhhh" lolol In the past she'd have to look around the room and they might catch eyes but now he's got to go over and interrupt whatever she's engaged with. Everyone's social skills will become stunted from this. Which means guys learning to be social (aka sarging and cold approach etc) will have the edge.

    "So none of them are around other men as part of their work day. None of them are around men who might be interesting in some way. As opposed, say, to some 30-something man who marries a girl lawyer, who is around the higher powered guys all the day, and who unconsciously compares her man to those men."

    This is why I always include the working in male spaces thing. My doctor buddies are slaying nurse poon left and right. But a chick working in a lingerie store probably isn't meeting high-value guys. But there's a bigger and bigger push to get women into office jobs because that's all they can usually do (they're not gonna do construction lol they'll be HR for a construction company), and that's going to mean more and more girls that guys are meeting will have jobs where they're around guys putting on the Mad Men illusion all day…and they only see those guys for a few minutes per day at the office when they have a flirty little interaction, not enough time to get bored of them compared to their boyfriend/husband sitting at home watching netflix scratching his balls when they get home.

    "It’s easier to induce dread in a woman with few options, vs. a woman with an abundance of options (perceived or otherwise)."

    Yup, that's why I bring up the "raised in 2016" culture when these guys bring up their wives who use social media but are in their 40s+ It's completely different. That's like me comparing how much I drive VS how much a Formula 1 champion drive. I can take or leave the car, the F1 guy would feel like he's losing his limbs.

    @Sun Wukong
    "That’s right. At the age most men get fucked by lawyers, I was fucking two lawyers. You’re welcome, gentlemen."


    "But you old guys DO keep dragging it back to “you just afraid of hard work, etc.” How many times must we address that before we can all move on to practical solutions?"

    lol this. It's not US that are stunting the discussion and saying there are no solutions. We're actively LOOKING for better options and trying to discuss them precisely because we believe there ARE solutions.

    "Right now, the one sided pLTR, harem, seems like the best way to keep your value up, and ensure she doesn’t sleep around."

    It all helps trigger her Hypergamy. That doesn't mean bigger and better won't come along, but you would be in a less advantageous position whether you were in a monoLTR or legal marriage LTR than in a pLTR so you'd be fucked either way, except without legal marriage you'd at least not lose half your shit.

    "But this brings up a bigger point I’ve been thinking about. The fact that every hot girl has 100 paper Chad’s sliding in her DM can only undermine your Dread or LSNFTE or pLTR…"

    It makes a difference, no denying that. That's why I say a guy may have to accept that his girl will HAVE to go find out a few of those Chads are paper to realize that and then come back. That may be an optimal strategy now…in which case it would be better to FORCE her to do that (dumping her during the NRE stage) so she has to scramble and pick some Chads she hasn't vetted, VS waiting for her to get bored with you and vett a few promising monkey branches.

    And an LSNFTE may take longer to come back now, than 5-10 years ago.

    "here’s to being a high-functioning psychopath"


    "So, if a guy doesn’t have a pLTR or a harem, can he possibly keep his value up? Is there ANY possible was to ensure she doesn’t sleep around?"

    Sure he can. It's just significantly more difficult and the current recommendations by society (monogamy and legal marriage) actively HAMPER his ability to keep his value up. You are a super badass from another time with better training growing up and your wife is from another time with better influences growing up, so even AGAINST the odds you've been able to overcome them.

    But now that's a helluva gamble to bet half your assets and being able to tuck your children in at night on.

    "Every hot girl has 100 paper chads sliding in her DM? Every. Hot. Girl?"

    Really WATCH these videos. Don't skip them or think you "get it" already. Really sit down and watch them start to finish without skipping to the end. You need to really understand what it's like for girls now:

    Stay to the end when he scrolls through the actual list…"she" has a 100% match percentage (that means 100% of the guys she theoretically decided "I'm interested in seeing what this guy is like", already matched her) and my estimate is he's got about 40 pages of matches at the end there, times like 7 matches per page that's around 280 give or take:

    In 24 hours the girl got 701 matches, 378 MESSAGES RECEIVED, and she matched with the vice president of Tinder himself lol:

    *24 HOURS*

    Or how about this:

    “The barrage of matches happened almost immediately. The profile wasn’t up more than 5 minutes and we were getting matches on every guy we swiped on. My phone buzzes every time I get a message, match or liked picture and my phone was a constant buzz. I learned to turn off notifications. In about less than 30 minutes, we had swiped right until we ran out of swipes. We had amassed 220 matches in that time frame. Nearly every single one of those matches started messaging us as well. Right now at this moment, I scrolled all the way down to the bottom and I count, I kid you not, only 12 people who did not send a message. That means, Amanda received 208 messages within the first day. The numbers may be off a bit here, but we can safely assume it is around here.

    after only 3 days of having the profile, we have amassed over 966 matches. The matches are still coming in.”

    I mean, what do you expect Blax? Why are you guys so resistant to this? Is it just because you’ve never seen something on this scale before technology-wise? Like Star Wars blowing everyone’s mind in the 70s?

    We’re talking about 25yo who stay well-preserved are swimming in this. And these are losers, pause these vids and look at the guys and TONS are good looking Chads putting on their best impression in their highlight profile and going to talk about wanting commitment and shit, they aren’t going to say “I’m gonna pump & dump you dumbass” lol And a lot of them really ARE offering commitment, they’ll just turn out to be lame when she spends time with them.

    For your next street experiments, start asking girls to see their Tinder match list and messages and ask them how many messages they get in a weekend from guys in general just trying to get them to come out or hang out etc. Remember to do this with the 8+/10s.

    “Lol. I just have to challenge the absolutes that pop up.”

    I think you should start quoting the absolutes that you’re challenging, because the rest of us don’t seem to be seeing absolutes where you see them and as far as I know I’m not making any and have repeatedly explained that.

    “Most marriages that I’m talking about are in the 20+ year range.”

    Pre-993-matches-in-3-days era.

    saving your FR to check out separate from this discussion so it doesn’t get lost lol blew WAY too much time here today but the discussion has been fun. Got your FR bookmarked to check out and won’t be gay and forget about it like last time lol

    “firstly, I think I kind of unconsciously eye fuck asian girls lol. I just think “whoa, nice asian chick.””

    This is why you’ll be a force of destruction in a city full of girls you’re into physically lol

    “” . . . what sort of effort/costs were involved in handling a lot of that stuff.”

    Simple Will, Health Proxy, Power of Attorney, two deed transfer fees, across one office visit and two home visits, in NYS: ‘Bout a grand. The “prenup” will go on top of that and the cost will vary with the complication and how much advice time you eat up. Do your homework first so you have a rough draft to begin with and figure 5 or 6 hundred.”

    I mean, shit. When you calculate it out, how many divorce-raped guys would rather have paid a couple thousand bucks than go through whatever they went through in the divorce? THAT’S the big obstacle?? lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “The Duluth Power Wheel is standard in pretty much every state in defining what “abuse” is, and I’m sure that telling a wife to delete her FB account would be just as much abuse as, oh, cutting up her credit card or shouting at her (both are listed in Federal guidelines.).”

    Yup, in the past she probably wouldn’t even know about that model. Now it’s shoved down her throats by the FI and 5 of her friends have been in “abusive” relationships (according to their side of it when they get caught cheating lol) and every little “microaggression” is “abusive”.

    I had a girl call me emotionally abusive for not returning her texts fast enough lol

    @Sun Wukong @SJF
    ““I never said at any point that I disagree with commitment. I disagree with marriage as the form that commitment takes. The legal hamstringing and removal of true Dread. There is no part of the First World where I advocate commitment in the form of marriage currently at any age to any woman.””

    This. Commitment RULES. *VOLUNTARY* commitment. By choice. Day by day. Based on whether she’s keeping up her end of the bargain. With the OPTION to stray/leave with minimal consequence, because commitment doesn’t require monogamy or a legal contract.

    But that’s not what guys are signing up for. They’re signing up for involuntary monogamy or one-sided monogamy and legally chaining themsleves into commitment “for sickness health rich poor” bla bla except when SHE says the vows she’s thinking “(omg I can’t wait to post these photos to Facebook I hope they’re getting my good side in this shot) huh what? oh ya, whatever you just said sounds cool, I do. :)” lol

    on September 8th, 2016 at 9:02 pm
    Original Link

    lol calm down. Serious question: Do you think there aren’t PUAs in your magical flyover states? Do you think there aren’t guys in your Realm (lol) who’ve typed in “how do I get a girlfriend” into google at some point?

    “You actually think parents have no influence over daughters?”

    lol quote where I said they had NO influence at all. Never said that. I said societal influences are huge and once they leave the roost out into the real world where they’re subject to them and out of your direct care, it’s harder to keep that influence (unless they leave to go to a nunnery and even then).

    “And I don’t have evidence that she doesn’t admire and respect her parents upbringing and ongoing advice.”
    “That we have not observed her behaviors over the last 25 years and approve of her and her choices?”

    Serious question: Do you think girls sucking our dicks run to their parents and go “I JUST SUCKED A BUNCH OF DICK AND HAVE NO VALUES!!!”? That their parents have ANY idea they’re doing the things they’re doing? That their parents don’t think they’re complete angels?

    You know how when someone shoots up a school and they interview the parents and the parent is like “Oh MY little Johnny would NEVER do that, he’s a perfect angel”? Well…

    “Wild-eyed fucking Strawman proposal.”

    And what would you call the original silly experiment you pitched to all of us that you’re only getting upset over now because none of us answered it the way you wanted us to and we turned it around on you.

    Not a fan of Luke personally. Haven’t seen anything infield from him that’s very impressive and he’s running a heavily social circle based style of game (in a city with an insane overabundance of hot girls compared to most cities). I’m not into that style so I skim his vids for useful content but a lot of it isn’t very applicable to me (though it might be cool for the college crowd with big social circles on campus etc). His general style is dominate the group with good energy, be a social connector, grab numbers under asexual pretenses and then arrange situations where you happen to end up isolated together.

    So his perspectives come from that style of game where, ya, if I bring my BFF female friends to the bar and you’re groping them or keeping them away from us, I’m probably gonna send a girl over to get her back or start asking who the creeper is. Kino/isolation in social circle game gives you more room to fuck up (or looking “creepy” trying to get her away from her friends, grab the wrong girl, miscalibrate how into you she is, etc).

    on September 8th, 2016 at 10:51 pm
    Original Link

    “But calling your shots is a fools game at the rate that you are going. Good luck with that. And good luck with not understanding misunderstanding the role of OMG’s in 2016 game. Or misunderstanding parent game.”

    “What exactly is your criticism of my children.”

    I don’t know anything about your children, why would I criticize them? I just know that that when a dad is convinced their daughter is incapable of sucking dick because she’s some UMC farm church good girl and everyone around him is perfectly happily married 24/7 and all the guys are badass alphas and all the girls are super intelligent magic unicorn good-girls, it’s a pretty big red flag that he might not be the most objective observer in the world of what’s going on in his “Realm”.

    “And how does that relate to your getting your dick sucked? And your getting your dick sucked has nothing to do with parental knowledge that our daughter is not out sucking dicks like yours?”

    I nominate this as the best thing ever written on this site.

    “And the subcomms that a parent can read that their daughter is monogamous with her boyfriend?”

    “What does a daughter’s sexual strategy have to do with a PUA’s sexual strategy?”

    I don’t know dude, YOU’RE the one who brought the whole daughter stuff into this thing lol

    “And then you wonder why your shadow hasn’t posted up some of your “insights” onto YaReally archives.”

    lol what? Are you dissing Lumpy? Do you think he manually goes through all of my posts one by one and cuts and pastes them into the achive? Dude is a tech wizard, that shit is auto-grabbed. It probably just needs to be updated ’cause WordPress changed something that threw it off, it’s happened a couple times before and I haven’t emailed him about it yet because I keep forgetting lol

    “It’s because your veering into the 2% of your insights that have no relevance to the manosphere. No relevance because they are baseless speculation on how Apex people actually function. Don’t wish you were in a world that ought to be. Be better.”

    lol what are you even talking about dude? Let me guess: you and your friends and family and everyone you assosciate with are the Apex people in your head, right?

    “What is your point here?”

    I’ve re-stated it multiple times. The current strategy is broken for the majority of men and I’d like to find realistic implementable field-testable solutions to fix it so we can build a new strategy for men of this generation and future generations to be able to raise kids in a stable 2-parent household with minimal risk to themselves (VS legal marriage), minimal restriction on their sexuality (VS agreeing to monogamy), and without having to move in next door to your farm and pray to Jesus they beat the odds.

    “You’re frustrated with the chessboard. We get that. The rules are changing.”

    lol what? I’m not frustrated. I’m just discussing realities of how society is evolving and what effects that evolution has on men’s long-term strategy.

    “My opinion is have more monetary financing for your plan. Have more money to raise the children and more in the bank than divorce rape can ever hurt you.”

    What WOULD a world look like where 90%+ of men had millions of dollars in the bank account? I’d love to see it, but I don’t think that’s a very realistic to expect the vast majority of men to execute. How much she takes in divorce is based on how much you have so even if you have a lot she’s going to be taking proportional chunks of that. Robin Williams had a lot of money but had to take shitty work to pay his insane alimony.

    Plus the money part is no guarantee the kids will have a stable 2-parent household. Lots of rich divorced people and kids being raised in shitty broken homes even though they have money. I’d prefer a plan that has better odds.

    “I thought you gave up on debating me.”

    Oh I did, I’m just fucking with you not debating you. You’re the one who pitched a silly scenario with a mythical unicorn to everyone and went on your rants about the Perfect People in your magical Apex Realm that no one else could understand. I literally don’t even know what you’re mad about at this point. Do you? lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    lol another decent analogy. Yes, computers still run programs to make things happen. That hasn’t changed. But a lot of the stuff around it has made the way to make that happen different, whether it’s touching the screen or using a mouse or a keyboard or motioning in the air in VR.

    Attraction is still attraction, all I’m saying is it’s harder to keep that attraction (aka stay at the top of her Hypergamy) triggered in 2016.

    “Man, it’s gonna be interesting when today’s 22 year old girls hit 30 and their affirmation / “likes” drops back to only a hot tub. Imagine catching one of those off of the carousel, what kind of ego issues will she be bringing in her baggage?”

    I can’t even imagine at this point. I’ve met girls who’ve only had social media for a handful of years who are approaching the wall and trying to process it and it’s brutal to watch. They’re torn between accepting that they’re losing attention but they’ve been programmed for years with that kind of validation and attention to STILL think they have a shot at the happy ending. They’re fighting their years of conditioning and neural networks etc the same way a newbie PUA is fighting all his Blue Pill conditioning when he first starts going out.

    It’s sad to me, really. I see them and just feel bad for them. But it is what it is and I’m focused on helping men not women…’cause helping men ultimately helps everyone else.

    @Sun Wukong
    “Dollars to donuts you’d rather have a guy like me giving her brilliant, good looking kids then raising them with an eye towards a complementary relationship with the opposite sex even if he hated the idea of marriage. Hell maybe even because he had the understanding and balls to give the middle finger to marriage while still finding a way to have what he wanted. Billy Beta that she settles for will probably be out of the picture leaving either barely a/no dad or a series of Alpha tingles of no value to the kids.”

    This is all a good point, Drunk Wukong. (I’m jealous because I’m sick and stuck indoors tonight booo)

    “TL;DR: Women in that situation should be made aware they’re fucking themselves badly if they don’t take a great guy when he comes along, even if it’s without the fairy tale princess hour she always thought she’d have.”

    The question is: will they listen? And the next question is: why WOULD they? lol

    “I’ve seen HB4s get that kind of response through the use of clever camera angles. Shit’s insane.”

    And on the flip side I know plenty of high-value dudes WAY above those 4s’ league, who end up fucking them because they’re horny and too nice to walk away from a catfish or they’re horny and in a dry spell or they’re horny and drunk etc

    So these girls often have LEGITIMATE reason to believe they can get some HG9 dude, because they really DID a few times. He never called them back but he was clearly a jerk and the NEXT guy will definitely stay, look at this guy Tindering me right now promising me the world, I bet THIS one stays…….lol

    on September 9th, 2016 at 12:14 pm
    Original Link

    “At the 10 to 16 years old the children are like soft putty”

    Dunno, in other cultures they’re out hunting at 10 and having babies at 16. Maybe the UMC is too soft a life to raise real men and women.

    “And parental influence is tremendously damped at this time, when it is needed the most.”

    Well which is it, are they moldable like soft putty by everything BUT their parents then? Might as well go through a separation then, they’re not listening to you anyway.

    “The best time to screw up a future adult is not to be all in with positive, skilled parental influence at this time.”

    The scenario we’re dealing with is that at some point women may have to stray to appreciate what they have, “DUDE THE KEY IS JUST BOTH OF YOU BE PERFECT FOREVER AND STAY TOGETHER FOREVER AND PARENT PERFECTLY FOREVER” may not be a common option on the table at this point in society.

    I’m saying “what should we do in the scenario where we have a flat tire, since it looks like the trend is that most people will have a flat tire” and you’re saying “DUDE JUST DON’T GET A FLAT TIRE”. Oh okay thanks for the wisdom!

    “The more resources you have to bring to the parenting role, the less you will feel compromised.”

    Tell it to the deadbedroom and divorce-raped and cuckolded guys who have money.

    Man, I’m not fast to recommend bail on a marriage (I’m one of the ones that told Andy to chill on the nuke button) but it doesn’t sound like either of you is really getting anything out of the relationship. She’s going to want kids at some point probably, and if you really don’t, and you two don’t spend much time together, etc I mean, I don’t really see any benefit for either of you. Also don’t tell us where but are you in a country/state where after 10 years she gets lifetime alimony?

    Thing is, you can’t picture the single life as replacing her with some other girl about her level or better and visualizing your life like that. Picture NO GIRLS, for like, 3 years. How would you do day to day life-wise without ANY sex, affection, cuddling, etc at ALL for a few years. Like the part of your schedule that goes to her now is just empty free time with no girls. Does that change anything for you?

    If you’re cool with that and the consequences look minimal to you (like no house/kids together etc) then ya, you might just be one of those unlucky cases where marrying was done under a bunch of misinformed ideas about life and IS wasting both your time. The reality is she’s got a window before she hits the wall…if you think you feel bad bailing NOW, imagine bailing on her when she’s 35 post-wall and will have a hard time finding another man. I don’t see a way out of it without creating some bad feels though, so prepare yourself mentally for that (I still vividly remember breaking up with my first GF and the moment I crushed her soul, even though it was better for us because I would have been wasting her time if we stayed together longer).

    But ya, I don’t see any reasons to recommend you staying in your situation. Very different from if you had kids (or even PLANNED to have kids) with her or lived together etc.

    My Secret Garden is an eye opener that’s for sure lol I’m an advocate for always being informed, about the good and bad, the pretty and the ugly, but it affects every guy a little differently and there are probably some guys that were happier in their ignorance lol

    “Old man freak out in this thread. lol.”


    “I feel the same way. I’ve been living in this world where people have been lying to me since I was born, and then I’m going to live another lie to counteract all the other lies? lol. My strategy is go behind her back (kind of… I mean, she knows I’m not in the house. lol. She probably has an idea.) for a while, and raise my value through the roof, and then just be open about it. Again, only doing this because I have kids.”

    I think this is an alright strategy for your situation. I’ve always said that I don’t respect guys who purposely enter a mono relationship and cheat but that I give a free pass to the guys who entered a monoLTR without knowing anything about game or the red pill and are trapped in it when they wouldn’t have chosen it if they realized they had an option, and they have kids or divorce-rape risk etc and can’t just bail.

    So as far as I’m concerned your strategy is fine. Your chick is also less possessive/insecure than a lot of other women, based on the conversations you had with her about the whole thing…she flips enough green flags that I think you’ll be fine even if you did get caught at some point.

    “I haven’t made the point again in this thread, but I have pointed out on numerous occasions that you may have to move. Stay out of community property states and states that recognize any sort of “union” by default of shacking up.”

    These are the things I’d like men to be informed of. If you live in places with common law then a part of your plan should be “don’t settle down here” lol Or be prepared to do the legal work of pro-actively informing the government you don’t want to participate in that circus.

    “Australia is already doing this for 3 year unions (not marriage)… Chumps WILL pay up, whether or not they are married OR monogamous… either directly via breaking the union or via confiscation via taxation… or BOTH.”

    Sadly this is probably accurate. Australia is hardcore entrenched in the feminist/SJW shit from what I hear. Like I say they’ll probably try punishment before they try reward.

    “Re: SJF – He’s finally giving a proper fucking to his wife and stopped being a blue pill, beta pussy with her so now his ego is dialed up to 11.”

    lol every newbie goes through this stage. It’s obnoxious but eventually they realize how off-putting people find them. Like, congrats, you’re fucking your old wife, settle down lol

    “But the real question that I think Sentient and SJF are asking is are you here to be average? Or are you here to become the master of your “Realm”?”

    It would be great if every guy could become a super boss, but the reality is they won’t. I’m looking for solutions for the average dude.

    “When men reject an attempt to impart knowledge earned”

    Looking for the “attempt to impart knowledge” in your spazzy rant or SJF’s delusional UMC bragging and flipping his shit on me for suggesting he might not be an impartial observer of his own kids and community that he thinks are heaven-sent flawless…can’t seem to find that attempt to impart knowledge hmmm…

    “(and the larger point that historically not all men have been biologically successful… LOL) My point of Not All Lion Tamers Are Like That is not for nothing… most will not try, most that do try will fail… that is the real issue. The cure is doing the work, not merely looking to hedge off your risk.”

    I don’t accept the idea that we should be cool with our fellow man not achieving their biological goals. Provide them a less risky alternative and they may prosper just fine (or fine enough to keep society going).

    That’s all marriage was originally: a way for betas to lock down a girl with the lowest risk of her leaving. And it was good for society and kids. But that system is outdated because it’s now a high risk system.

    “I’m not really picking on old guys in general, but I think the disconnect is that (some of) you guys see marriage and monogamy as worth saving for some undisclosed reason.”

    This. But they won’t tell us the reason or give any reasons relevant to a man in 2016. It’s just this mythical “We can’t admit it’s done and over with because that’s too negative and depressing” thing because it’s been socially conditioned into them.

    At the end of the day no one has provided any real reason to marry OR agree to a monoLTR (VS choosing to be monogamous).

    “I think LTRs are worth having. Kids are worth having. But, marriage and monogamy is not the best strategy to get those things.”

    This has been my point from the start. The pushback and overreaction is fascinating.

    “We value your advice. We are not trying to shit all over your lives and relationships and life choices. Calm your tits.”

    This lol

    “Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that marriage and monogamy doesn’t seem worth it to you?”

    We’ve been asking for like 4 pages now for anyone who brings that “well maybe it’s just not worth it to YOU” thing to provide ANY reason to choose legal marriage and/or obligated monogamy (VS voluntary with the option to stray).

    That’s the part that’s frustrating to us. All the old guys just go “well maybe YOU don’t see the value in it…” but we’re saying there *IS* no longer value in it. For ANY man. We should accept that. There was for some of you back in the day (even though most of that was an illusion and you could’ve had the same life you have now without legal marriage or obligated monogamy), but there isn’t now and we should be working from that premise that legal marriage and agreeing to monogamy to secure an LTR (with a girl who has social media, works in male spaces, has male orbiters or males in her social circles, etc) is simply NOT an option anymore.

    Like why can’t any of you just say “back in my day we felt we had reason to, but now there is NO reason to anymore”? Is it because you’re worried your daughters/granddaughters won’t get married if society shifts that way as a whole? Like what’s the resistance to this.

    “Like for you, it might be okay if your wife left you after a Girl’s Night Out where her friends tell her you are being a pig and a lowlife, and she “wakes up”.

    Other guys might not want that.”

    No one WANTS that. wtf? But we’re saying it’s more often the case in 2016 compared to your day.

    “Why would any of us think we can tell any particular man how to choose – once he’s fully informed of course.”

    So inform us why marriage should even be CONSIDERED an option for men these days? Or obligated monogamy? Why can’t any of you point out some benefit that can’t be gotten in a non-legal voluntarily-monogamous relationship?

    ’cause there is none. But now the old guys will go “I GUESS OUR OPINION ISN’T WANTED HERE WAH WAH” No, it’s just we’re putting your opinions under the microscope just like we put “do we really need to be a Nice Guy to get girls?” under the microscope.

    When you AREN’T asked for your opinion you get butthurt that no one wants to hear the old men, then when you ARE asked for it you get butthurt that we dare look at it analytically instead of just listening to the wise old men on the mountaintop tell us how things work and nod our heads and go “well that’s it then, whatever they said goes forever because they’re old!”

    “Even though I know that 90‰ of guys don’t have the knowledge of work ethic to build harems or pLTR’s, I don’t poo_poo the idea.”

    Maybe they would TRY, from an early age, and be able to develop that shit if we didn’t have them still chasing marriage and agreeing to lop-sided monogamy where their girls keep their options open and they lose theirs. Maybe if we would finally admit that the old systems are dead and look at plans of action to teach guys to run pLTRs and give them alternatives to legal marriage (like getting everything handled by a lawyer for a couple thousand bucks), we would SEE more of that 90% try this shit.

    Maybe if we had a system that worked better than the shitty broken one, to achieve that “2 kids raised in a stable 2-parent household” dream, more Blue Pill guys would start learning about the Red Pill because they’re watching their friends getting divorced and losing their kids and realizing the old system isn’t really in their favor anymore.

    “if you want to marry them it gives you some statistical improvement on your chances for staying married”

    Even then that’s debatable. In the old days where that virgin would only have a few influences in her life in some religious community where everyone behaved, ya, you might have a statistically better chance. But a virgin in a normal city in 2016? She’s just a girl that it’s easy to convince has “missed out on experiences”, whether by an asshole like me at the bar or her girlfriends who want to rationalize their own dick-sucking and bring their virgin friend down to their level in the bucket.

    “Which is contributing to me wondering what value does she really bring me that makes the relationship worth it (the legal marriage I’m sure is not worth it).”

    That’s why I say picture life without her and without ANY girl for a few years. Not a replacement girl. Assume you just won’t get laid or find a girl etc, so you can really picture “what is she bringing to the table that I would legitimately miss if no other girl was supplying it”? Like imagine your every couple weeks touch and affection from her is replaced with just you by yourself in your apartment.

    If you can’t come up with anything then she just might not be bringing you anything. You guys may have just made a naive mistake and you’re in a position to correct it with little negative outcome in the grand scheme of things.

    ““When you do go into something… go in aware, think about contingencies but ACT, always ACT like you do not have any and commit/execute.”

    Good advice, but isn’t that what we’re doing? Figuring out how to make ltr’s and raising kids work. I feel like I’m either dumb or speaking Greek here.”

    lol I’m with you on this Andy. It seems like we’re doing EXACTLY what these guys keep harping on about, but it’s like they don’t like hearing the discussion at all because it’s too negative or they interpret it as us being scared or something. Like, we’re just having a discussion so that guys can “go in aware” and we’re discussing contingencies.

    No one has EVER *EVER* recommended “go into a relationship crying and scared and telling your girl you’re terrified and be negative and fear the end of it and doom and gloom”

    BUT, just like you accept that probably in a relationship your girl isn’t going to give you a million dollars, it’s okay to accept that maybe in 2016 there will be a break in the relationship at some point for her to go find out her other options aren’t great.

    It’s like you guys flip out at the idea that a relationship might not just be 100% perfect 24/7 always from start to death. “WUT BUT IF U AREN’T TOGETHER 24/7 THEN U ARE A DEFEATIST!!!!!” Like no, we’re just saying have some realistic expectations.

    If I take some third world foreign dude to the mall, I just expect that we’re going to have a slow day because he’s going to want to stop and look at everything around him. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that and going “so maybe I shouldn’t make a bet that I can get him to the other side of the mall at the same pace those other people who weren’t dealing with these circumstances did”

    Why is this so complicated to understand? I’m as confused as Andy about your guys’ reactions. It’s like we can intellectually discuss/debate anything EXCEPT DARING TO QUESTION TRADITION lol

    “” Now what do they have in common?”

    Got game. I agree, game is the answer for every man.”

    Game sure they have that in common, but what else? Where do you think they are on frame? Pussy Pedestalization? MPO? Self actualization? Ego? On executing a dynamic, passionate and authentic life?”

    Why don’t you just TELL us where you think they are on frame, PP, MPO, etc? You clearly know their inner thoughts more than we do from 2 photos.

    “Can you see how the whole “woe’s marriage” and “A Dummy’s Guide to Unbreakable Pre Nups for a Happy Marriage” thing is just a huge, huge red herring to the real issues?”

    Andy, look man, I know you’re thinking this business deal where you sign half your company over to me if I decide to not work at some point in the next 40 years SEEMS like maybe it’s worth discussing other deals, but BRO. Can’t you see how that “a dummy’s guide to not risking half your company on a silly lopsided outdated deal that’s statistically likely to fail” is just a huge, huge red herring to the REAL issues?

    “Nested Comments are a terrible evil.”

    We tried that and it was a huge fail lol I hated the long-form of this when I first came here but now I like it. You always know what content is new and where to find it (it’s always at the end) and you catch glimpses of other conversations along the way that you might not have clicked on if it were a thread labelled “discussion about Subject X” And then you gotta bookmark the conversations so you can get back to them easy and shit

    Just don’t make it slow to load and badly formatted on mobile lol And keep the whole “latest comment by X on article Y” that helps us not have to go through 4 pages to get to the latest comments…make that list longer even.

    “In my fave cafe. New school year started at the local colleges (influx of like 3000 18-24yo HBs).”

    lol AGAIN to reinforce to the guys sarging, young and old, do what you have to to move to a college town. The % of female students is increasing and your male competition in their peer groups is getting lamer.


    “but I don’t think I’ve ever done A3 correctly.”

    Julien in PIMP has a bunch of shit on A3. Even his free PIMP clips on YouTube are enough to give you a huge leg up on A3. Mystery explains A3 great too…and understand that Julien is just supercharging Mystery’s A3 (Mystery devalidates/disqualifies her once, Julien does it 5x in a row before she has a chance to qualify herself at all, exact same concept but Julien’s is supercharged)

    “Essentially my approaches are mostly about creating rapport” “i still improvise and it’s just not effective”

    You’re just doing what every guy does lol Set specific goals to work on and learn the A1-A3 stage that most guys don’t know even EXISTS. So when you go into rapport/comfort it has more meaning to her. You can improvise on the guitar once you understand how to play the chords…otherwise it’s just the same noise every other guy is making. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    “But seriously do not worry… you have discovered a magic way to convert Divorce Rape into consensual sex… your invention will be trumpeted by the #NeverMarryDivorceRapeHalfAssetsWHAAAAA crowd for a generation.”

    But seriously do not worry…you have discovered a magic way to mass-produce butter in a more efficient better way…your invention will be trumpeted by the #DontChurnButterAllDayWHAAAAA crowd for a generation…those IDIOTS lolololz

    “I guess I would take that as work on yourself and everything else will work itself out”

    So here we end up back at be alpha 24/7 forever bro. Well it was a fun attempt to push the discussion forward and come up with new strategies for men, but fuck it, that was silly of me. Instead of discussing the handful of plans that we’ve thrown out there, you know, getting these old guys’ opinions on “that’s an interesting thought, how WOULD a temporary separation initiated by me have affected things in my marriage or marriages that I’ve seen not work out (except in SJF’s case, where every marriage around him is 100% rainbows and sunshine forever)”

    Nope, that’s too negative, let’s just listen to the wise old men who aren’t married to 2016 girls that everything’s going to magically work itself out and fuck any alternative plans. Just shut up and churn that butter.

    Not a SINGLE constructive comment from any of the old wise men about the possible alternative plans I’ve thrown out there. Just a lot of “UHHH UHHH NO DON’T DO THINGS DIFFERENT JUST DO WHAT WE DID!!!! AHHHH!!!” lol And then you guys wonder why we treat you like “okay they only seem to be able to see one way of doing things so their advice is pretty limited”

    “Don’t waste them confusing yourself. Figure shit out and keep it moving.”

    Ya, fuck man, don’t confuse yourself looking at things objectively. Figure shit out, but don’t ACTUALLY figure shit out unless you figure shit out in the way we approve of otherwise you’re negative and retarded and #NeverMarryDivorceRapeHalfAssetsWHAAAAA expecting failure. Just figure shit out the way us old guys who haven’t been monogamous to or married 2016 girls because we’re too busy banging our HB10 50yo wives tell you to figure it out.

    on September 9th, 2016 at 2:17 pm
    Original Link

    @hank holiday
    “Pushed past anyway with usual “hey we’re just going for coffee around the corner is all . . . ah so your husband doesn’t let you talk to other men lol””

    lol good ballsy attempts to push it in a no-risk scenario (her hubby isn’t around, VS if he was nearby where this would be dangerous), so props.

    “but she was insistent so let it drop.”

    And good calibration. Push it just to see if it’s just a shit-test, and then drop it if it is and leave on a good “can’t blame a guy for trying ;)” note.

    “Dude and chick. Don’t usually open those so just ran with it. Piercing girl, but they were very cold just “dude like call her or whatever.” very “uuuh, why are you chatting with us.” just a bad set is all — not much you can do with those”

    Keep in mind that it’s extremely out of the ordinary for someone to open a couple like that so just in general you’ll find sometimes they’re confused about why you’re even engaging them or if there’s some angle or something to it lol Not saying that’s what happened here, like, this was probably just a bad set, but just mentally expect that you’re barging into their little bubble and that’s something that rarely happens to them and the social awkwardness can be on THEIR end sometimes because they’re not sure what’s happening.

    “She didn’t stop so I just paced her as she walked around”

    Good. RSD has a bunch of daygame stuff about this, try to stop her but if you can’t then just adapt and go with her. Whatever buys you time to display your personality.

    ““You made all that stuff up didn’t you?” “Nah. It really happened” and then just continued on.”

    Could have tried something like “Ya, I just thought you were cute and wanted to flirt.” or “you’re so suspicious of me…do I give off that vibe? Actually this one girl thought I was a drug dealer…” to see if you can trigger a Buying Temp spike but it sounds like you had bare minimum A2 with her so that would be flipping a coin just trying to find something that sticks (which is fine, that’s part of routine stacking, you stack till something hits).

    “But once I got into that store with her it changed thing. Walking along with her is one thing, but now I am at her destination so she’s like “okay where is this going”.”

    Right this is the same situation as when you sit down with some girls at a bar…as Mystery says the first thing they think is “how long is he going to be here?” lol a False Time Constraint turns it from “is he going to follow me around all day?” to “he’ll be leaving when his friend texts him in 10 min like he mentioned so this isn’t as weird”

    “Cuz she was stopped there for a bit after the whole “you made that up” bit so there was room to work there. I just needed something else to kind of spike her a bit more, make it feel alright for me to be with her there shopping with her, then I can just keep gaming her in the store.”

    Right, good analysis. It sounds like you had minor A2, but like you say “room to work” (PUA is about trying to create a spark and then fanning that spark into a flame then into a campfire then into a raging forest fire, so looking for “room to work” is a good mentality, VS looking for green light blatant IOIs…you just need to nail 10 seconds to buy yourself 30, nail that 30 to buy yourself 1 min, nail that 1 min to buy yourself 5 min, nail that 5 min to buy 10 min, etc etc)

    So something you could have done instead if you wanted to go indirect might be “You made all that stuff up didn’t you?” “You’re so suspicious of me…do I give off that vibe? Actually the friend I’m waiting for thought I was a drug dealer when we first met…”

    Or if you wanted to go more direct you could have done something like “Ya, I just wanted to flirt with you while I wait for my friend to get here. When I was saying it I was like man this chick is gullable, I bet a lot of guys see you and think you’re–(cold reads etc)”

    Make sense? In both situations you’re transitioning into some BT spiking routines, while also dropping in a FTC so her brain goes “oh, okay, he has limited time”.

    Usually she’ll ask for further clarification on the next break something like “So when is your friend coming?”, not necessarily as a brush-off it can be like “because I’m enjoying this and hope it doesn’t end too soon” so don’t read into that as a negative thing by default.

    Then if you’re running out of things to say at that point you could just go “oh they’re probably here now, but you’re fun have you been to (bla) what are you up to later bla bla (Time Bridge)” and try for a solid number close. Or if you’re feeling good and have good chemistry with her and she’s having fun you could either say “soon but I’m just helping them pick out a gift for someone and then I’m free, let’s grab a (whatever) when I’m done” and give her half an hour to do her shopping (incase she has to buy tampons and shit lol) then meet up again. Or if it’s going well “about 10 min” and then pretend to get a text saying they’ve cancelled or say “ehh, they’ll forgive me, so what’s next on our shopping list?” and continue with her and then sidetrack her into an instadate from there.

    Lots of possible angles lol Use your own judgement of course.

    “Still, opening girls now that are walking past (didn’t used to) and sticking with them for a bit. Feel like I need a different stack for these situs. Need to ping the BT faster.”

    The euro guys jump in front of the girl and stop them but I think that works better on friendly bored tourists than girls over here that are busy doing shit lol I like the walking with them thing but 1) spike that BT (teasing and roleplaying will usually spike BT faster than DHVs and deep cold reads, just because they’re usually shorter and things you can just off-hand joke to her VS needing her full focus paying attention to a story or deep cold read) and 2) ON the BT spikes TRY slowing up your pace and see if she follows your lead. If she doesn’t, keep walking with her, but like, on a big BT spike, try a “hey look at that!” and stop and point at something and see if you can get her to stop walking to see how much compliance/A2 you have ’cause if you can get her to stop and pay full attention to you then that’s a good time to pull out the longer DHVs/deep cold reads so that even if you keep walking again because she actually has to get somewhere, you have her hooked harder.

    “in a “you are giving a presentation at a formal meeting when a thong wearing male stripper walks in and starts chatting with you about the 1992 superbowl game.” That kind of “wait, what?””


    “I was out in the open, she in an aisle. So as I was talking I switched up and moved into the aisle on the other side. I dunno, just made it more intimate.”

    Similar to when you open a seated set, sit as soon as possible (BEFORE the open (or AS the opener) even, if you can), or with girls with their back to you get them to turn around etc so it looks and feels less “gamey” to you, her, and everyone. So good instincts on this.

    “Shook hands . . . and held it. Long time lol. Like 10 sec.”

    One of my fav compliance tests. Not hard enough that she can’t take her hand away but if she leaves it there, that’s a big IOI to me. With a girl who’s ESL you probably have to pay more attention to the little subcomms like this because those are her way of communicating interest since she can’t verbalize it smoothly.

    “I remember at this point I had a very definite attraction to her through the physical contact and wanted to fuck her. But, especially now in hindsight, it was CRAZY the effect just that hand hold had. Granted, I have shook many other girls hands with no really effect, but once you have that vibe start to generate, physicallity just drives it through the roof.”

    lol were you doing laser eye-contact with eachother? I find everything is enhanced when we have that bedroom eye-contact locked in. One of my favorite moments in the overall seduction.

    “Had a paper she had to finish, she went out to take a break from it. So i told her we should get some icecream. She agreed.”

    Beautiful. Taking the lead and moving things forward to a new venue etc All good stuff, and compliance from her, so solid A2.

    “As we walked to exit the bookstore she said “are you going to kidnap me?” I was crestfallen “how did you figure that out? well never mind, I can’t abduct you now.” and started to walk away from her a bit. She laughed at this.”

    Perfect agree & amplify. When I bring a girl to my place I’ll usually pre-emptively make jokes like this in the elevator if I sense her having any hesitation/nervousness like “oh btw I should probably let you know now that I’m an ax murderer, try to ignore all the bodies in my apartment I just haven’t chopped them up yet, you’ll get used to the smell” and exaggerate it to where she feels silly for worrying (plus I’m showing I understand what she’s thinking and what it’s like for a girl etc), or the reverse “I hope you’re not an ax murderer, I knew it this was all a trap and I’m falling right into it” putting it on HER.

    “we went to walk to icecream place. Its maybe a 10 minute walk away. Tried to hold hands but it didn;t work. Lol. Hard to describe. Don’t think she even noticed, but I basically missed her hand and grabbed nothing. So I just pretended nothing happened and waited until later to try for more kino.”

    lolol No way to know what to read from that. But if you did actually try to go for her hand and she wriggled out of it, I would just interpret that as her being nervous to be touching a guy in public beacuse of her probably more repressed upbringing. Like holding hands with a boy is no big deal to a random white chick in our culture but for some ESL chick with strict parents that shit might be asking too much compliance too soon. A lot of my asian friends you can’t even tell they’re couples lol they don’t even sit beside eachother when they eat. I’m the reverse I’m a huge PDA guy with my arm around my girls in public letting them cuddle up to me etc

    “Girl getting ansty, so I show her where the place is. Kino, put my arm over her shoulder and then point out with my other hand where it is.”

    Solid read of her mood/thoughts and pre-emptively comforting her while escalating Kino slightly. With an ESL asian chick you probably don’t even need more Kino than that (to avoid triggering ASD)

    “(so glad I got all these worked out beforehand lol)”

    HEAR THAT SCRIBBLERG? ๐Ÿ˜‰ lol Get the training wheels down and then go off into improv territory when your improv will be tighter and have more direction because you used those training wheels.

    “I said this was VERY important because if she picked wrong I was just gonna ditch her right there.”

    Good, this is A3 stuff. You’ve clearly got A2 with her even coming with you, so now you’re causing her minor “oh no I might still lose him!” vibes even though the whole thing is silly, and the reason is silly, and she KNOWS it’s silly…BECAUSE she has A2, she’ll still roleplay that it’s a big deal in her mind. VS if you didn’t have A2 and she would be like “uh I don’t care”

    “She said “well what is the wrong answer” and I said “lol If I tell you that you know what not to choose.” so she said vanilla and I started to walk away then lol. She laughed and I came back and said “I’m just messing with you.””

    lol perfect. Lots of good stuff here. Her asking what the wrong answer is is an IOI, like she doesn’t REALLY care but she kind of DOES care a liiiittle. And the walk away as if she answered wrong gives a good little “omg!!” emotional spike etc

    When you get into the nightclub scene dealing with cocky chicks that’s where you’d actually walk away and open another girl in front of her to leave her going “wtf!!” and make her chase you lol but that’s overkill here.

    “Ordered mine, paid for it, got my icecream. Then she ordered hers (made her buy her own of course).”

    Good. It’s subtle but she hasn’t EARNED you buying her ice cream yet.

    “Black girl by us. So I chatted with black girl for about a minute. Good convo, got her to like me.”

    Good, preselection. Girls love when we’re out and I chat with random people, guy or girl, young or old, and charm them. It makes them feel like “oh wow I’m with The Prize!! And he’s choosing ME!!”

    “So I got faux upset and said “That was VERY RUDE of you to say you were giving us free chicken fingers only to lie and take it back. Can you belive this girl?” Don’t remember exact wording but it got the worker laughing a bunch — think back to the “just buy me a cookie” with those two black chicks keeled over laughing “OMG!” — same level here”

    lol you and I have the same type of humor. I do this shit all the time. “Do you want X?” “What you mean you aren’t just GIVING me X?” “lol what no” “I can’t believe you promised me X and are taking it back” “lol what!!” “HEY EVERYONE THIS GIRL IS SO MEAN SHE PROMISED ME X AND–” etc etc telling them I’m going to write a letter to their manager etc

    That confusing “wait that’s not what I said, omg he’s just making stuff up now lolol now he’s causing a scene omg ahhh!!” rollercoaster is killer.

    Here’s a great example of it that you’ll probably love (my game often looks like this):

    The part where he pretends she’s robbing him and gets her flustered is that kind of thing. The whole thing is also a good example of changing her mood not her mind, he doesn’t try to really debate her he just pumps her with BT-spiking stuff (including a Three Stooges poke lol) and leads.

    “Asian girl was very impressed. I think she said around here something like “wow you know everyone” Something along the lines of that I chatted with everyone.”

    lol you have tons of value to her at this point. Remember that as your value goes up, you may have to either purposely lower your value (self-depreciation humor or sincerely (or make shit up lol) admitting flaws/weakness), or purpsely raise HER value (qualify her on something easy where whatever she says is the right answer and you’re impressed, or compliment something about her that isn’t her looks etc) so she feels like she DESERVES you (but just barely), or she may disqualify HERSELF and you lose her (which is surreal when it happens lol).

    “So I will save it for seduction.”

    lol ya with an asian ESL like that you can probably tone the sexuality down a lot, save it for isolation in a sex location. It might be too much for her to even process let alone be comfortable with.

    “Then I remembered –>the bank robber DHV. She liked that one.”

    Just want to point out that while this may sound like you’re just doing all the talking and selling yourself to her etc, with an ESL shy chick you might HAVE to do most of the talking like this, so don’t stress it. Like pickup usually starts out with you doing 90% of the talking and then over time it gets down to 70% then 50% and ideally like 25%. But with a shy ESL who’s not used to having to hold conversations with random handsome strangers just keep letting her experience who you are and wait for her to slowly get comfortable and come out of her shell more, lob her some easy conversational pitches to hit (like comparing places you two have lived, etc)

    “I see how “world traveler” is a dhv now lol”

    lol it’s funny how they extrapolate too. If a girl who’s just met me sees me talk to a few people, she assumes everyone everywhere likes me. If she sees me talk to more people, she assumes EVERYONE there knows me. If she sees me talk to LOTS of people, she assumes I must own the venue or have been a regular for years or something. Even though I don’t actually know anyone lol

    “Teased her that she was trouble. Ongoing theme was that she seeeemed like a cute little girl (which she legit is, she’s pretty straight and narrow) but that she actually lied all the time and was starting fights and shit. I just misinterpreted everything she did as in that vein lol.”

    This is a good one for shy/quiet girls because often they WISH they were a little bit more “trouble” but are just wrapped in layers of social conditioning and shyness etc and can’t really let that side of them out, and this kind of teasing can let them roleplay “yay I’m cool for once!! even if it’s pretend!!” lol

    Also it works into the concept of labelling. If you give someone a label, they’re more likely to try to live up to that label. So when you approach girls saying “you girls seem friendly”, they’re more likely to BE friendly because that’s the label they’re being viewed as. So when you label this shy girl as “trouble”, she’s more likely to let whatever “bad girl” side of her she has out, which is where her sexual side is gonna be.

    “Good vibe here. Lots of back and forth. Talked a LONG time here, maybe 45min. Generally was good — it died down in patches, but for the most part she was very engaged and was teasing me back and forth.”

    All sounds solid to me. You have enough Attraction here to theoretically fuck her, but she would probably have a lot of ASD/LMR to deal with so you’d probably need more time with her to get to where she’s comfortable hooking up.

    “That she didn’t think they actually happened.”

    lol either way they don’t REALLY care if they actually happened. If I DID just make the story up, and I have A2, I’ll usually just confess “ya I just wanted to flirt with you I can’t believe you fell for it” etc because at THAT point she’s EARNED my interest…if I confess I was flirting right away BEFORE she’s earned it, that can work (direct game and all) but it’s giving her a lot of value right away based on just her looks since I can’t know anything else about her. But if I make that exact same confession when she has lots of A2, then she LOVES it because she’s Attracted and is happy I was interested in her.

    “Walk back to bookstore. She is walking very close to me, almost shoulder to shoulder. Go for her hand. She gets weirded out “I’m not drunk.” In vietnam apparently they only hold hands to escort a drunk person to safety lol.”

    lol that was random but either way whether she’s lying or not, she’s indicating “I’m not comfortable with that yet”, and this is good calibration on your part:

    “I just told her that is what people did in america, hold hands, it was nothing. I let go of her hand when she got weireded out, waited a bit (30 sec maybe) then went back to grab her hand and she was okay with it.”

    A LOOOOOOOOT of guys will try to stick to the plan SO HARD that they’ll try to convince her “oh it’s nothing here” and keep trying to MAKE her hold their hand, because they have shitty calibration and they think “but if I can’t hold her hand then I can’t escalate” etc

    So what you did was perfect, back off to show that you get it, but then try again later, no big deal. This is what we do with LMR too, if she resists, back up a step or two, stay there till she’s more comfortable, then try escalating again when she’s more comfortable.

    These little calibrations also demonstrate to her that if she’s uncomfortable, you’ll sense it and back off…which is reassuring when it comes time for sex because you’ve been demonstrating to her that if she’s uncomfortable with the sexual escalation, you’ll be aware of that and back off until she’s ready, so she can trust you.

    “Wanted to know logistics. So I asked her something about a roomate. Like we were talking about movies and I said “what movies does your roomate like.” and it was like I struck her with a thunderbolt “how did you know I have a roomate?!?!””

    lol Good, logistics are key. You’re getting the general strategy/roadmap for this down, like you have a good understanding of what needs to happen in your sets. When you get to a better city you’re going to be starting with a HUGE skillset/experience advantage over other guys who are starting out there or who would’ve waited to get to a better city before doing any of this.

    “Store closed so we went back out.”

    lol note that she was just taking a break from studying and now she’s off on an adventure with you. A lot of guys would have ended the set early off the intial interaction accepting “well she has to get back to studying!” but if you’re there face to face in person and there’s enough attraction, just push it, she can fail an exam or go to work tired, it’ll be an adventure. And if she won’t, then at least you’ve shown intent and you can back up and Time Bridge to hang out again.

    “I Leaned up against a pillar while we talked a bit more. Asked for her number and thats when she just handed me *her* phone and told me to punch in my number. Yeah I know thats not the same as *her* bringing up the number first, but the way she did it gave the impression that she *really* wanted my number.”

    lol not quite the same but good enough. You’ve done enough here that the number should be fine. And because she’s ESL asian shy, you MIGHT have been able to just keep hanging out and then walk her to a sex location but it’s hard to say. She might NEED a second hangout to give her emotions time to process this whole thing. There are exceptions obviously but if she was skiddish about sex stuff then proooobably more risk of LMR/blueballs/Buyers Remorse, etc

    “Did a bit of having her chat with me over the phone . . . but she wasn’t as into it since there were a few more people around and she was shy (around other people, she wasn’t so shy around me alone).”

    Ya, probably just her shy personality. But calibrate to it: don’t push too far in public, push further in private. So when you plan a Day2 you obviously pick the dark quiet empty lounge or the isolated walk in the park etc, over the crowded restaurant or busy walk through the high-traffic center of the city.

    “Set up place, day, and time for our next meetup. I had her repeat this MANY times lol. In fact, I made her jot down a note for it in her phone. Kino — I put my arm around her shoulder and then dictated to her what to write down in her phone.”

    lol good. It seems retarded/excessive, but in 2016 the average hot girl is going to have a lot of stimulus coming in. This chick as an average ESL shy asian chick probably doesn’t have as much, like she probably doesn’t have a big social circle and shit…but there’s no DOWNside to Time Bridging hard like that. She’s attracted to you in that moment so it doesn’t come off as insecure (as long as you’re making it fun and not like “because girls always ditch me :(” lol).

    “ehhh. this is a good time to kiss close, but there are people around, not really any secluded spots, girl is kinda iffy — she’s the shy asian type so hard to push these things here”

    lol good calibration in that you can tell she needs isolation to feel comfortable escalating to PDAs like that, and you’re not IN isolation, so probably better to NOT pull that trigger and give her a reference experience of turning you down…save it for isolation.

    “This is where my day two is awesome — it ends in that VERY private garden that is perfect for making out. You could maybe even fuck there — but that you’d have to plan out a bit more lol. But it is definitely solid for doing a quick kiss here and there.”

    Yup perfect. You don’t NEED to kiss in the initial interaction. Like I say I rarely do Kino in my sets until we’re basically in my apartment. Before that there’ll be an arm-in-arm romantic walking and MAYBE a kiss in isolation on our walk, but I won’t do much more than that because that’s enough to show that it’s on and that I’m comfortable escalating.

    “I pushed to go to her place. we had talked a fair amount about her major and what her paper was about. She thought I was smart. So here I told her I could come over and help out with her paper.”

    lol solid attempt. Again a lot of guys would view the number close as a goal and just not even bother trying to keep the instadate going, and as a result they lose a lot of lays they could’ve had if they pushed just a little further (then the girl flakes and they don’t get the lay at all lol)

    “She was resistant — I’m sure her roomate is probably there. That’s a big obstacle I will have to work around.”

    This is probably a big part of it. Plus you grabbed her out of nowhere so who knows what’s going on down below (period, hairy bush, hasn’t shaved her legs etc). Maybe she ate some bad burritos earlier in the day who knows lol

    But she can fix all of those things for a Day2…but the roommate thing is something she can’t just get rid of. So on the Day2 if you DO get hestiation at going back to her place, don’t necessarily chalk it up to a lack of attraction/interest, it’s probably a roommate thing. There are some roommates that will have none of having rando hookups over, and as a shy girl it could be embarrassing for her etc etc

    If she has time to plan, she can maybe ask the roommate to not be there, but that in itself is basically “being a slut” so it’s hard to say how her ASD will react to that.

    “Maybe run my day 2. kiss close. then set up a day 3 to go over to her place when her roomate isn’t there to watch a movie (which I can set up throughout my day 2 — we pass a movie shop so I can drop movies in there. also already know the movies she likes anyway) and thats when I can bang her.”

    Not bad, with a shy girl with complicated logistics I’m not against having to do a Day3 to get the lay ’cause she might need that time.

    But something to try might be pitching “When is a good time for you?” for the Day2…ie – you’re allowing her to say “tuesday afternoon” or “friday night” based on when she knows her roommate won’t be around, without either of you verbalizing “SO NO ONE SEES ME FUCK YOUR BRAINS OUT” lol Like I would go with her schedule in this case VS trying to set the schedule yourself, because of the logistics, the same way with married girls or girls living with their BFs, I’ll let them set the schedule because they have to juggle when their hubby will be home or when she can get a babysitter or when she can lie and say she’s at her BFFs in a believable way etc

    Like I think you can escalate this to sex on the Day2 (what’s your plan to go from the garden makeout to her place? Have a plan for that incase it goes better than you expect) if the Day2 happens on a day/afternoon/evening/night of the week that SHE picks where her roommate isn’t going to be home.

    And if her roommate is a shut-in who’s always there 24/7 you can try teasing her like you would with a BF/hubby: “will your roommate get mad at you for having a boooooy over lol are you gonna get in trouble, no boys allowed in your apartment lol” or “are you ALLOWED to have booooys over? Such a trouble-maker” etc where you’re keeping it light-hearted but implying that she doesn’t have freedom.

    And if her roommate will bitch her out for it and is a shut-in there 24/7 so there’s never a time where she’s not there, you might be able to pitch a role-play about sneaking you in ninja style so she never finds out, or find a different Sex Location (or build enough sexual tension etc (tons of laser eye-contact and cut the space even if you don’t kiss, just leaving that butterflies in the stomach feeling with her) to where she says “fuck my roommate, let’s go” lol)

    My after-care text for girls in those situations by the way is something like “that was fun, hope we didn’t get you in trouble ;)”

    “Are writing your paper or did you follow me home?”

    lol perfect. Setting yourself as the prize, her as the stalker, callback humor to the interaction etc etc

    “What? Im in your closet”

    Beautiful. And note how now that she’s comfortable she’s playing along with your roleplays and stuff when initially she just stared at you like “uhh what is happening??” lol You shouldn’t have a problem closing this. Also note that she picked your closet instead of like, outside your house. I think you should push for the lay at the end of your Day2 instead of waiting for a Day3. Let her pick the time for the Day2 so she can work around her roommate.

    ““See. I knew you were a stalker ;)”

    on the instadate, she teased me about ME stalking her, and I would flip it on her that SHE was crazy and SHE was stalking me. we just had this thing lol. so I was referencing that. ”


    “but no response to this. got a little worried that she might have misinterpreted that as me telling her to kinda fuck off (I hate texting so much lol) so I added maybe 15 min later”

    NO YOU HOMO DAMMIT lol You had a WINKY FACE. No one misinterprets a WINKY FACE lol If you didn’t have that, then maaaaaaaybe. But like, you didn’t need this text. ’cause what happens? Now you feel EXTRA worried because now it’s TWO texts she hasn’t responded to when it could’ve just been one lol

    Don’t second guess yourself. Trust that she’s fully in A2, you ran solid game through that whole interaction. Trust your value.

    And let HER have the last word in the conversation and worry that you might have misundertood her and lost interest in her so she sends another one, so that she’s relieved when you DO txt her the next day after she spent all night obsessing/worrying, ya know? Golden rule: You don’t have to respond to every text.

    “I’ll ping her again a bit closer to the day 2 to check on things. Worried she’ll flake like they always do . . . but those other ones I only talked to for about 3 min, whereas with this chick it was more like 90, and I took her to a few venues. So just have to wait and see.”

    It would surprise me if she flaked, based on the FR. But that doesn’t mean you can’t still fuck it up with clingy insecure text game lol Keep cool, this should be no problem.

    “uuuuuuggh. wanna fuck this girl bad.”

    lol it’s nice to hear that from you about a girl in your city finally. But remember the movie analogy: you both KNOW what the ending is going to be, so don’t fast-forward to it…just enjoy the movie, enjoy your Day2, enjoy the escalation, etc

    Props on your progress man. You are running technically solid game in general. There are some holes and stuff to fill in (like having ways to reliably spike BT when you need to and thinking on the fly etc) but overall you’re grasping this whole thing a lot faster than most newbies do.

    on September 9th, 2016 at 4:22 pm
    Original Link

    “You want to focus on concentrations of guys having problems ( deadbedroom reddits and the like…) and then hold them up for all to see as some kind of Standard.”

    Statistically they are becoming the standard. Maybe your relatioship is fine, maybe your buddies are fine, but statistically we are seeing an increase in guys having those problems. It’s not me trying to dwell on negativity any more than the inventor of the seat belt saying “you know what, people keep dying and that trend isn’t going down, maybe we should come up with a way to help reduce that stat”.

    “It is insulting to try and tell someone that they just don’t know what their kids are doing, if they happened to actually put in the work of trying to be a good and aware parent. Everyone doesn’t raise dumb, sneaky, random dick suckers. Lol.”

    No, but logically you are not inside your kids’ head 24/7 every day and a TON of parents think they know what’s happening in their kids lives and turn out to have daddy goggles on.

    That’s not an attack, that’s BASIC LOGIC.

    It’s like me saying “I’m really good at playing the guitar” and someone going “I know the song sounds good to you in your head but sometimes it doesn’t sound as good as you imagine it’s sounding” and then me going “FUCK YOU MAN THAT’S A FUCKING INSULT WHY ARE YOU INSULTING MY GUITAR FUCK YOU I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT GUITARS YOU FUCKING KEYBOARD JOCKEY WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE IMPLYING THAT MY GUITAR SKILLS ARE ANYTHING BUT ABSOLUTE PERFECTION 24/7!!!”

    None of that emotional outrage changes that, logically and/or statistically speaking, it’s possible that you’re not playing the guitar as well as you think. How many people go up on stage or onto American Idol and shit thinking they’re awesome and everyone else is like “dude wtf”. You aren’t infallable and my pointing that out isn’t some kind of direct insult to lose your shit over.

    Like, fucking relax. You guys take this shit as direct personal attacks on your marriages and families and life choices but we’re not attacking you any more than we’re saying “everyone who ever used Windows 95 was stupid and retarded and we spit on them, because Windows 95 is outdated now”

    “Two photos? LOL how many gazzilion videos on Tyler did you post alone? Let alone their youtube channels etc. I’m willing to believe video evidence, unless like you know from the inside it is all a scam or something?”

    lol wut? I don’t know what you’re asking dude lol Tyler and Nick are both probably pretty happy, but we don’t know much about Nick because he hasn’t spent much time in the public eye compared to Tyler, and Tyler seems about as happy as a man can be. No idea why you’re even bringing their lives up lol

    “Is it threatening that Kho is married?”

    What? Why would it be threatening? I’ve said before that the PUA community doesn’t really follow MRA/Manosphere stuff about what’s happening in marriage, family courts, etc so a lot of them still have the Blue Pill happy ending marriage goal in mind.

    Nick making an uninformed or statistically bad decision doesn’t threaten me lol I hope it works out for him. Having a jillion dollars and access to direct coaching from some of the best PUAs on the planet will probably help him beat the odds but that’s not the situation for 90% of men.

    “LOL… men have had less risky alternative (according to Marriage 1.0 Old Books Fair deal) for dozens of centuries and the majority still did not reproduce. Take a spin around the Arabian Peninsula, India, Death Row tonight etc. Not every guy gets A girl let alone pick and choose any girl. Nature.”

    Cool, so then let’s just stack more odds against them, seems logical to me. “Hey man, this is risky, so let’s just raise the risks up to 11 and bet everything on it, instead of finding less-risky solutions, because that makes sense” The machismo/bravado stuff is so dumb lol

    “Just because you don’t think something is a good idea for you, doesn’t mean that it is dumb, unrealistic and dead.”

    Give me any reason, any at all, why it would be a good idea for a man in 2016.

    “Just because you choose to consistently reject the other side of the argument, does not render that argument invalid. Ever.”

    There IS no other side of the argument, just a bunch of guys who won’t answer this simple question: in what way would it be a good idea for a man with a girl in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy?

    Any answer at all. Anything. I WANT to listen to this “other side of the argument” but all you guys do is dodge this simple question:

    “What benefit is there for a man dating a girl in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy?”

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Kinda funny how nobody had any comment about the tampon brigade at Brown university. There’s your UMC, your leaders of tomorrow, making sure that trannies have a tampon in the men’s room when they need it.”

    lol anyone who thinks the UMC is the pinnacle of civilization needs to spend some time in the MRA/SJW world and see what’s happening at these prestigious campuses the last few years.

    “You can go outside and stare at the tires on your car and confuse the shit out of yourself regarding their function, or you can objectively figure out what you’re looking at, sans 1,000 possibilities.” “I only suggest that guys don’t over complicate things. I NEVER say JUST DO WHAT I DID. Do whatever you want, but do something instead of constant, never ending fantasizing and questioning. Move forward.”

    We are trying to but when we try to you tell us it’s over-complicating things.

    “Bro, you gotta learn this new Windows 10.”

    “Okay, what are the new features”


    “Well, I’d like to EXCEL at this system I’ve been given, I know the basics are the same but there’s a lot of new interface stuff and things have been renamed and repositioned and they’ve added a button that will delete your entire hard drive if you accidentally click it that Win 95 didn’t have and–”


    Ok there lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “This whole social media thing reminds me of when Scrib flat out refused to believe that camgirls exist and that they bank coin, despite YaReally rubbing his nose in the truth.”

    lol it’s the exact same thing. Same with Blax’s adventures in understanding social conditioning. I’m so used to it ’cause I get this pushback every fucking time but it’s still SUCH a waste of time/energy going through this whole:

    “it’s changed”

    “NO IT HASN’T”

    “trust me it’s changed”


    “but seriously, everyone who’s out there doing this stuff sees that it’s changed”


    “I know but this is a different time and you’re not doing the things these guys are trying to do”


    “I’m not, I’m just saying like, this is observable shit”



    Followed EVENTUALLY by:

    “so I went out and looked at that thing YaReally said and it turns out he was right”

    …when someone actually goes out and tests it. The only reason I GO through this process EVERY fucking time for a million pages, is because it muddies the knowledge base when incorrect ideas that don’t hold up infield or are outdated or aren’t tested and contradict the rest of the knowledge base, are allowed to pass on as accurate. It gives guys reading and future guys inaccurate information to navigate the world with.

    Meanwhile if any of these guys tried to LTR a 2016 girl they’d find out the same shit ScribblerG did about cam girls and Blaximus did about social conditioning and his social media street interviews: YaReally is always right about everything forever. (…lol THAT WAS A JOKE YOU GUISE)

    That’s why I’m happy when Blaximus goes out and tests shit. Because aside from that everything else is “don’t you DARE question how much I know about the world!!!” just like scrib ADAMANTLY refusing to believe that his 5-years-ago knowledge of the camgirl scene could be outdated.


    “If I’ve learned one thing by unlearning old things in order to learn new ones, it’s this: “I don’t understand (thing) so it can’t be true” is not a logical argument. It’s an emotional reaction. We men are taught for good reason to keep our emotions in check, right? ”

    Fucking THIS. This is why we go by the field, because the field has no emotion. It just is what it is.

    ““It would be great if every guy could become a super boss, but the reality is they won’t.”

    But, honest opinion? The average guy is hosed. No way out. No, I’m not being defeatist and I’m still working the Big Board at strategy, but for any guy now alive – it’s done. Things can be changed (and you say you’re about adaptation, not change), but it’s going to get worse before it gets better.”

    I don’t disagree, but I’m an optimist. If you looked at me in my early 20s, you would have said I was hosed too. If I saw that me right now, I would be like “dude is hosed” lol Hell if you look at scribblerg’s early writing when he was in his “trying to get this coffee table built” phase, or Softek in his initial posts or Scray in his initial posts or Sun Wukong in his depressed phase a while back or Hank early on or early pre-game Tyler or any number of other guys, we’d think “man, these guys just don’t have what it takes to make the cut”.

    But PUA is about beating the odds and taking guys that seemingly have NO chance, and helping them build the tools or unchain the tools that would give them a chance, and maybe even better than a chance.

    So I can’t accept that there’s no solution and all we can offer men is either this broken flawed system that is statistically and anecdotally getting worse and worse in all areas across the board, or the Krauser/Roosh PUA-for-life-no-kids-no-reproduction-no-stable-household-parenting system.

    Those aren’t good enough answers to me. I can agree and know that they might fail, but I can’t idly accept that as the default and allow it if there are opportunities to help fix it.

    @Sun Wukong @Blaximus
    “No. Some things are objectively bad ideas. Having sex with HIV patients. Screaming racial epithets as a white guy rolling through Compton on a moped. Punching cops in the dick. Sticking your dick in a light socket. Getting married as a man in the 21st century. These are all quantifiably poor ideas.”

    lol this.

    If someone said “maybe sticking your dick in a light socket isn’t for YOU but that doesn’t mean it’s dumb”, my first question would be “okay, name a benefit from it.”

    When their answer is “BRO IT’S FINE IF IT’S NOT FOR YOU BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S NOT FOR SOME MEN IF THEY WANT IT TO BE” then like, how can I not just assume they haven’t really thought this through?

    Now if they could list some benefits, I could go “oh that’s interesting, let’s look at those and see if we can achieve those benefits without the dick frying in a light socket part”

    But they can’t list any more objective benefits for men in 2016 with women in 2016 to do these things than someone could list for sticking their dick in a light socket.

    That ALONE says a lot.

    “And again, I’m not making an argument against commitment or child-rearing or any of that if that’s your thing. Those are great things if they’re what you want. I’m making an argument against voluntarily putting yourself in an incredibly vulnerable legal position for no gain whatsoever.”

    This. I am all in favor of a stable 2-parent household raising kids in a long-term relationship. And I am ACTIVELY TRYING TO GET SOME NEW PLANS GOING that will give guys the highest possible odds of doing that in 2016 with 2016 girls.

    But that doesn’t require a legal noose or promising monogamy and the old men come stomping in about negativity and just don’t discuss it because it’s overcomplicating and just be alpha like we did.

    I’m really surprised at the pushback, I was fully expecting this, of all places, to be the place that a discussion like this would be appropriate and enthusiastic. But it looks like a lot of guys just want reassurance that they’re awesome and because their lives are fine hey, fuck other guys, who cares, pussies should’ve just been badasses like them.

    “So there are no circumstances where you’d say a man can manage marriage successfully?”

    No, I think he CAN. But I think it’s SIGNIFICANTLY and statistically more difficult TO manage it successfully in 2016, and NO ONE has provided ANY reason to even *TRY* to win that roll of the dice because no one can name any benefit to it.

    You can probably survive slapping a bear and then putting your dick in it’s mouth to bite off. But there is no benefit TO rolling that dice.

    In 5 pages now, no one has named a single benefit to it that makes it worth even TRYING to “manage successfully”. We can list dozens of negatives/downsides and NO ONE has named a single benefit that you can’t get WITHOUT legal marriage or promising monogamy.

    Why is this so hard to grasp?

    (leaving out the rest of your questions because they’re based on an innacurate summary of my position lol)

    “Yareally used to talk a lot about his Reversion Theory… he should dust it off because this is actually happening.”

    I would love if it happened. And it might happen in certain communities/areas. But I’m focused on the 90% of men, not just your friends, that’s all.

    And hearing that that’s happening out there is GREAT, I hope that spreads like wildfire. And who knows maybe it WILL happen. But it will be a long time away for 90% of men, probably a couple generations of cat ladies before it’s widespread and it’ll have to happen minus the religious influences and against social pressures for them to do the opposite and there’s no guarantee other factors won’t fuck that up at some point. So I don’t think we can rely on it happening across the board for 90% of men in our lifetimes yet.

    Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

    “The concept of AFC’s and Beta’s is well excepted around here…except when it comes to any kind of monogamous relationship.”

    Please re-read this multiple times:

    NO ONE is saying that Alpha/Beta doesn’t exist.

    NO ONE is saying that the way to keep a woman attracted, single, in an LTR, in a monoLTR, in a marriage, etc, is to be Alpha/high-value/trigger her Hypergamy.


    What we are saying is that social changes have occurred which make it:

    1) more difficult to DO Alpha things without having meddling outsiders paint it as negative/abuse

    2) no longer beneficial to legally or monogamously commit because there are no benefits to now, only risks

    and 3) there are more influences pushing for relationships to NOT work out

    That’s it.

    This is VERY SIMPLE.

    I get it, being alpha rules. It makes women attracted and want to stay with you. WE AGREE WITH THAT. So why bother with the legal contract and promising monogamy? Why not just BE alpha, just like you say, without adding a noose to your neck that will make it harder to BE alpha? Why not just NOT put on the noose (that there are NO benefits to), and have a much easier time being alpha with much less risk involved.

    It’s like I’m in Bizarro World here. How does what I just wrote here not make sense to you guys???

    “I only propose that if a man wants to succeed”

    At WHAT? At having a 2-parent household that you can raise healthy kids in with a long-term partner? To succeed at THAT? You don’t need legal marriage or promised monogamy to succeed at that.

    “Not everyone is cut out for success”

    At WHAT? Is “making a lopsided-contract that you didn’t have to enter” success to you? Why not just NOT enter that contract and still have ALL OF THE BENEFITS?? lol

    Like Sun Wukong said to Scribblerg: “The consequence for Game failure in the club is you don’t get laid tonight. The consequence for Game failure in a non-married LTR is you don’t fuck that chick anymore. The consequence for Game failure in marriage… well you’re already familiar with that shit. It’s more than any man should have to pay. The risk/reward doesn’t make any sense.”

    This. Like, how do you guys not grasp this simple basic risk/reward logic?

    If you guys could spout off a bunch of benefits to marriage or promising monogamy, that you can’t get without legal marriage or monogamy, I would be the FIRST ONE to be like “wow, okay so there IS a benefit to it then, that’s interesting maybe I’m wrong!”

    But you guys have NOTHING. You want guys to take risks for no reason, like “oh then they’ll be REAL MEN”, that’s full out FI conditioned shit right there.

    “Seriously, it’s experiences like yours that make it really clear why marriage is a bad idea. You did it all right and still got fucked over by circumstances beyond your control. I’d say that argument pretty much makes itself.”

    Yup. I’m not saying my plan proposals are going to guarantee success. They just follow attraction principles better (as soon as someone with a deadbedroom comes along we tell him to do the exact same things I’m recommending here, like stoking dread game etc), and minimize the risks as low as possible.

    @Anonymous Reader
    “I can see around me in my social circle women in their 30’s and 40’s women who married in their late 20’s, had some children, and who now have a bit of that “what did I miss out on?” look about them. Now 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, those women would just talk to each other & probably take out their frustrations on their husbands. Smart ones would get a book or three and read it, and maybe try to spice up marriage at some romantic getaway.

    But now in the world of Ashley Madison and other sites, it may be different. I can’t tell if any of them are acting out their fantasies, but it’s not impossible.”

    This. Like I say, in the PAST a lot of these things weren’t significant problems. But now with technology, shit can hit the fan a lot easier. I bring up the virgin thing because that’s HOW I bang girls who settled early (like have a boyfriend from highschool still or a virgins or 1 other partner etc). You just pitch it like you feel bad for them missing out on experiencing life like all their friends, and their friends and society are helping me push her to experience everything she missed out on because it justifies their own life choices and sells movies etc

    I get the whole “teach her stuff in bed” and everything is a kick for some guys who like virgins, and that’s cool whatever floats your boat. But I think there’s also a lot of guys who think a girl being a virgin will be a buffer against her straying and in a past society maybe that was true, but now in 2016 it’s not something I’d bank on.

    @Anonymous Reader @IAS
    “She’s a woman, and like Andy said, what she wants in her hindbrain is to be dominated and knocked up by a man who is attractive to her.”

    Maybe I misread but my impression was that IAS doesn’t want kids at all…? If that’s the case then he should probably cut her loose to find a guy who does ’cause she’s going to want them as the clock ticks.

    “It is the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.”

    This is the first time I’ve seen anyone talking about monogamy being dead, or coming up with alternative plans to it, or discussing the actual commonlaw nuances or financial costs of handling stuff that marriage would normally handle.

    We can’t all know everything like you. A lot of this discussion is new, except for the stuff you guys keep making us rehash over and over because you can’t get past the idea that people would actually question the way things were done in your time.

    “On your present course, with your present tactics, you will NEVER solve the problem that you speak of.”

    Well you’re sure not going to share the answers with us, you’re too busy keeping them secret so they don’t face any scrutiny or analysis and telling us we’re all retards for not just knowing all the secrets of the universe like you.

    So what do you WANT us to do? We have to figure shit out because you won’t share and what you DO share ends up being stuff we already agree with that you think we don’t, or doesn’t hold up under analysis for men in 2016.

    “But hey, you could always just kidnap girls and chain them up in your basement.”

    See, NOW you’re brainstorming.

    “If it doesn’t to you you don’t do it.”

    It doesn’t to any man anymore, is our point. It shouldn’t be considered an option. None of you can list the reward that makes the risk worth it.

    That’s a good list of Risks and Rewards there. Now keep going but do it for this one:

    Risk/Reward of getting legally married and/or promising monogamy for a man in 2016?

    Let’s hear it! What do ya got?? We have TONS of stuff to put in the Risk side, so you just have to fill in the Reward side with some rewards that a man can’t get without legal marriage and/or promising monogamy. I’m dying to hear! Anything at all! From anyone!

    @Sun Wukong
    “You know what we call somebody who knowingly takes a legal arrangement that fucks them over to the exclusive benefit of the other party? A sucker. A fool. A dipshit.”

    lol it’s surreal how in ANY other important category this would be a no-brainer, but when it comes to this specific category it’s “JUST TAKE INSANE RISKS WITH NO REWARD AHHHH!!!!” The social conditioning is strong.

    “But hey, you guys wanna advise dudes to be suckers I guess that’s cool. I mean it’s dickheaded, but if it makes you feel good:”

    I just don’t get why guys don’t want to find a better solution for their fellow man. One of those “I had to do it the hard way so other guys should have to” things?

    “It’s possible to point out that somebody is objectively wrong. Replies after that are simply gainsay without merit, whether due to deeply held beliefs or just sheer stubbornness. That’s not argument. That’s just childish foot stamping and saying “NUH-UH!””

    This. You can disagree, SURE, fucking GO FOR IT. But disagree with some kind of logical benefits to legal marriage and/or promised monogamy. If you don’t have any then you are just going “NUH-UH!!!!” We’re sitting here listing all sorts of logical downsides and stats and attraction principles and common sense, and the rebuttal is “…NUH-UH!!!”

    @Anonymous Reader
    “YaReally is asking what alternatives to the standard one-sided contract exist. He’s not gotten much of a logical answer, but lots and lots of emotions.”

    Blows my mind. I legitimately thought this would be a nice easy conversation piece when I started the dialogue. I thought the married/monogamous guys would pitch some benefits, we’d look at them and find out what can be gotten outside of legal marriage and/or promised monogamy and if we found there weren’t really any benefits to going that route, we’d all be excited to come up with new plans and ideas to help men out.

    “I live about 5 miles from a group of ” Projects ” ( it may as well be in another world ) where a working model of the ” have kids, don’t marry ” is in absolute full effect. 1200 people crammed into a shitty 6 story building. The guys are indeed carefree, footloose and fancy free. They all mostly have pLTR’s, lol.”

    Ya, it’s not a very good system hey?

    A better system would be one where a man has good odds of keeping his girl attracted to him long term and staying in his kids life to raise them properly.

    It’s too bad marriage doesn’t actually provide that anymore and, in fact, doesn’t provide anything that you can’t get without it.

    Unless you’re suggesting if the people in those projects were legally married they wouldn’t be doing the things they’re doing.

    I wonder how much better those projects would be if 50% of the men in them were even MORE poor from having to pay alimony and even MORE angry frustrated and depressed from being divorce-raped and even MORE desperately in need of money to avoid going to jail…

    I’m sure there would be NO negative reprocussions from THAT lol

    Maybe we need a new system…oh wait, I wouldn’t want to overcomplicate things.

    Fuck Tyler was ugly lol That’s why I don’t accept the whole “some guys just won’t make the cut” thing. If THAT guy could turn out like this:

    Just putting the final editing touches on this beast of an infield video release for If you'd like to experience my best program in 10 years, come join the tribe. Would love to have you along for the adventure.

    A video posted by Owen Cook (@rsdtyler) on

    Then there’s hope for ANY guy lol

    “Just the fact of telling a married man that marriage is suicide and doesn’t work is illogical to me.”

    Maybe we’re not talking about YOUR marriage. Maybe we’re not talking to YOU. Maybe we’re not saying “YOUR marriage is suicide and YOUR MARRIAGE that was from a DIFFERENT TIME doesn’t work”.

    MAYBE…Juuuuuuust maybe, we’re talking about other men besides you. MAYBE we’re saying that in 2016 (you know, that phrase I’ve stressed 100000 times in this discussion), a thing that WASN’T suicide for YOU, in YOUR time, might NOW be suicide for men NOW, in OUR time.

    Wait, what? But how can the world NOT revolve around Blaximus??

    If you guys could quit taking “marriage in 2016 doesn’t work” as “YOUR MARRIAGES ARE ALL STOOPID AND YOU’RE GOING TO GET RAPED AND AHHGHGHGHGHGHG” and taking it all so fucking personal we could get a lot further in the discussion.

    “Why try to figure out how to have ” the benefits ” of something that one doesn’t believe in at all?”

    What we’re showing is that there no longer ARE benefits. And none of you are providing evidence to the contrary because none of you can ask the simple question: what benefits are there for a man in 2016 to get legally married or promise monogamy?

    Anything at all.

    @Sentient @Blaximus
    “I hear you loud and clear… this is an inconvenient fact for many to confront… I posted this clip of the fine young Alpha men of Baton Rouge a few weeks back just on this point… overwhelmingly from single moms… with multiple half siblings from multiple dads…”

    Shit, I’ve been AVOIDING bringing up black communities because it so easily proves our point about fatherlessness and women chasing Hypergamy lol

    But if you guys wanna throw the debate in our favor then ya let’s get into that lol

    Question 1) will legal marriage or a man promising her monogamy prevent those women from fucking other men? Statistically is that the case? Is that the trend we’re seeing these days? That slipping a ring on her finger or promising her monogamy guarantees her undying commitment to you? Pretty sure we have a few Rollo articles about buffers on that subject…

    Question 2) will legal marriage or a man promising her monogamy prevent those men from being poor? Or, since legal marriage gives her the ability to financially rape him and monogamy makes it harder to keep a girl attracted, is it more likely that these men will stay poor or be MORE poor when they’re paying alimony on TOP of child support?

    Question 3) would it be better to devise a strategy for men that would allow them to maintain a long-term relationship with a girl, without risking ending up poor if it doesn’t work out (which statistically it’s a coin flip and getting worse odds every year), that these men could have executed to have good odds of raising their kids in a stable 2-parent home?

    Question 4) are you implying that men need to marry and be chained down because if they aren’t controlled, they’ll get out of control? ’cause if you are, we can sign you up for an official FI-Officer badge to wear and give you the pamphlets on “men should get married because they’re more productive and make more money when they have the threat of jail dangling over their heads”

    I mean, let’s start there since you guys bring it up (thanks for that, I didn’t want to risk things getting into racebait territory lol, let’s stick to just “poor people” VS “black people”, like those vids could be of another race or a bunch of white hicks but the discussion points they bring up are the same)

    Looking forward to your answers guys! After that we can bring up how things like condom usage etc affect the ghettos and how legal marriage and promising monogamy will INCREASE condom usage and increase faithfullness for women (I really gotta dig out those articles by Rollo about how you can negotiate desire and commitment with women and how their love is unconditional…)

    “Fathers need to be present in a child’s life.”


    But you don’t want us to solve it for some reason.

    “And I mean a full investment, not some kind of selfish game.”

    So are you saying that if a man has a pLTR, he’s not fully invested in his kids’ lives? I mean, I just wanna make sure I’m clear on your position here because I start bringing up all the different communities and subcultures where two parents raise their kids lovingly but in their spare/private time endulge in other sexual practices.

    I’m sure that’s not what you MEANT to say though, right? That would be quite the condemnation coming from a former player, that Sentient isn’t fully invested in his kids’ lives because he fucked a stripper when he was out of town. I figure we can get into the “lack of full investment in their kids’ lives” of the guys who hire strippers or have an office fling etc on the side too.

    But if that’s the road you want to take this…lol

    Or, is it possible that a person could be fully invested in his kids’ life, and his wife’s life, without a legal contract requiring him to, and simply do his own thing in his own private time that doesn’t affect that?

    Do you think men are unable to control themselves without legal restraints and threats put on them by a court system?

    “Any dad worth his salt understands that kids pick up on much more than adults realize.”

    Yes, that’s why I’d like to have discussions about how to address that situation. BUT FUCK THAT THAT’S COMPLICATING THINGS.

    “This is but a small part of what comes with age and being observant and thoughtful….lol.”

    Guess what old man, us young assholes already KNOW that kids pick up on shit, because we’ve heard you all yapping about it for our whole lives. That’s why we’re trying to address “is there a way to present this that doesn’t damage the kid” and unless you’re going to say every kid raised in any kind of non-traditional male/female monogamous legal marriage is a fucked up damage case, then clearly there ARE ways to handle it and we could be looking at those if you weren’t shitting on us for overcomplicating things.

    “Imagine if everytime you needed to know something, no one around you had any answers at all, and what meager answers you did manage to get were from people taking a guess”

    I know right? How annoying would that be? On that note: what benefits are there for a guy in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy (VS voluntarily choosing to be monogamous)?

    “Absentee dads can mess up kids, male and female.”

    No one is promoting absentee dads. Where did you even come up with that? You do not have to be legally married or promise monogamy to spend literally 24/7 with your kid.

    You are making silly emotional equivalents that “well if you’re not legally married or promising monogamy you’ll just be an ABSENTEE DAD”. No, that doesn’t even make fucking sense lol

    “Why do you thinjk kids without dads PRESENT account for so much fuckery and bad shit? Just coincidence? It takes a special kid to not go bonkers under those circumstances.”


    NO ONE IS ADVOCATING ABSENTEE FATHERISM. What the fuck are you smoking?? lol

    “So flippant arguments for dads trying to figure ways out of responsibility does not strike me on any emotional level. It is just possibly adding to an already crazy problem.”


    Jesus christ. I don’t even know how to get through to you, you’re so completely off base, it’s like you haven’t read ANYTHING in this discussion. You think we’re promoting ABSENTEE FATHERISM!??!?!?

    “So when I’m approached by some fatherless thug with a 9mm, I understand that I might get shot because he has no point of reference for what it means to be a man”

    Now imagine if he knew you had your wallet on you and he had to make alimony payments or go to jail.

    on September 9th, 2016 at 4:34 pm
    Original Link

    @Andy @Blaximus
    “Fathers need to be present in a child’s life. And I mean a full investment, not some kind of selfish game.”

    Yeah. But how does this relate to pLTRs? The whole point of this discussion is that we are looking for a way to keep the Dad around.

    Fucking THIS. How the fuck did Blaximus get that we’re promoting abandoning your children from this????

    Blax is your belief that if a guy has THE OPTION of side poon (not even TAKING side poon, just not promising that he won’t ever have it), he’ll just, what, walk out on his kids? Or avoid them? What the fuck are you talking about dude.

    THIS is why we’re calling your arguments emotional lol They don’t even make sense, they’re not even what we’re talking about.

    @othergrain @sentient
    “Risk REWARD of getting married or monogamy?”

    This. Let’s hear it Sentient. Just the REWARD part, we already have a list of the risks. We’re all ears!

    …what Sun Wukong said lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Sure, I get the point about projects and hood rats. Because I’m totally sure that those chodes are just like kfg; they research the law and hire attorneys and make a careful contract with their babymommas involving inheritance and all that stuff, because they are totally down with long term thinking and raising a few chlldren to competent adulthood.

    I’m sure that’s your point. Because otherwise you’d be just pissing on everyone’s shoes while insisting it’s raining, right?”

    Fucking lol this. Like, why would they even bring up the ghettos as an example??

    Unless they really do think that not promising monogamy or legally signing a marriage contract means men will just uncontrollably run around fucking everything, getting everyone pregnant, fuck condoms, and just start shooting everything up.

    Like, what?? THAT’S the lifestyle they think we’re advocating for?? No WONDER they’re fighting so hard lol

    on September 9th, 2016 at 6:56 pm
    Original Link

    “IT’S FRIDAY WHY ARENT YOU OUT! (angry emoji)”

    lol I’m sick as fuck this weekend. Yesterday too. That’s why I have 100000 posts on this thread. Stuck inside watching my phone light up with txts from people having fun and already had to turn down an FB trying to arrange a last call bootycall for later FML๐Ÿ˜ฅ lol

    “have you ever commented at Blackdragon’s? I think there could be some good conversation there on this topic”

    Nah I sink enough time into this place as it is, but I have mad respect for Blackdragon. He field-tested a lot of this shit (and all my (and other guys’) field-testing of what he says falls in line with what he reported and figured out).

    But I want to build off it because society has shifted since he was doing it, with this Tinder culture shit and now that the red pill is becoming more widespread VS being an underground thing. I want more iron-clad step by step strategies for that 90% of men out there, to at least use as a basic framework to explore so we can break out of the very clearly broken marriage/monogamy system. A better system means drawing more men toward the red pill which means saving more guys.

    “do you have a kid yourself, maybe you don’t have custody of?”

    Nope. But I have friends who are in that situation and just from going out a lot (not just to bars, but socializing everywhere) I meet guys in that situation and let them pour their souls out to me. A lot more guys than I’d like to have met, unfortunately. Plus online forums and guys on YouTube and shit sharing their stories. It sounds like one of the worst tortures in the world, to not be able to see your own kid, especially if on top of it you have a vindictive ex who’s poisoning them against you and have to work extra jobs to pay etc I don’t know how guys even survive that shit.

    “Also, have you ever been in a monogamous relationship”

    Yup, 2 year monoLTR after about three years of sarging and no prior relationship experience. She was a virgin and head over heels in love with me to the end. I broke it off when I decided I wasn’t happy with how far I had let myself go (without other girls and a social life (since she was a nice quiet stable girl that wanted to cuddle and stay in, not go party it up, she was only at the bar I met her at because her friends dragged her out against her will that night) there was less incentive to take care of my looks/health and keep my charisma/game sharp since going out and flirting with girls and hanging with friends was replaced with movies & chilling). And I also realized that we were looking for different things (she wanted the settle-down life with kids and I didn’t see myself wanting that anytime soon, though I had a LOT of “I’m almost 30 maybe I SHOULD settle” conditioning I had to fight against (that’s part of why I can relate to why Softek won’t leave his LTR lol) and in retrospect I made the absolute right decision for both of us and any future kids we would’ve had, cause that shit wouldn’t have ended well for anyone lol)

    Wasn’t a fan of the monoLTR arrangement overall, as a framework I saw a ton of problems with the monoLTR system from a red pill perspective (all the stuff I’ve pointed out about marriage/monogamy, from making it harder to run dread, to less incentive to stay charismatic, to less incentive on her part, etc, to all the oblgations that come with the arrangement like having to hang out with her boring couple friends playing board games instead of doing fun shit lol and not being able to pursue other girls and losing my game skills and eventually not feeling attractive anymore). Also we both gained weight (because with promised monogamy why not, they’re stuck with ya) and I realized SHE had no real incentive to stay in shape since I was locked down to her with monogamy, so I was letting myself gain weight because hey if she was going to get fat then I don’t have to go get a 6-pack sure let’s order pizza and watch a movie and have fat sex lol

    It was both of our first real relationship, so I had a weak frame and looking back I could have laid down the law on a lot of things, but we still wouldn’t have been a good fit long-term. A pLTR would have fixed a ton of those problems just by its structure.

    If I had gotten legally married to her, shit would have been messy…legally tying myself FURTHER to her wouldn’t have made her suddenly go hit the gym, if anything that would be the OPPOSITE of dread and would just give her LESS incentive to do that because I would be even LESS likely to leave her.

    After that I didn’t want to enter that monoLTR system again because I felt it was extremely flawed (and now that I understand attraction and the red pill better I can see I was right about those flaws and more that I didn’t even realize in the moment), so I decided I would try just not promising monogamy and being open/honest that I might have other girls in my own free time and basically embracing it all. Worked fucking GREAT, had a fun time with a lot of cool chicks, way more girls were cool with it than I expected, and some I’m even still in touch with now and then long-distance these days lol

    And when I found a cool chick (who also was dragged to the bar by friends and didn’t drink party etc lol this stuff is why I roll my eyes when guys think all girls at the bar are wasted bar slut party animals), I entered a 2 year pLTR with her. My Fri/Sat were free to go out with my friends and sarge, and when I wasn’t at her place I was free to do my own thing with other girls. I felt INFINITELY more free/natural in that arrangement and it was pretty effortless to stay high-value through it. We were great together but she was struck with a lot of health problems that I stuck by her through (yes, despite being in a pLTR where apparently you’re selfish and don’t care about anyone else, I was going with her to the hospital when she had to go now and then and staying with her when she had rough nights and skipping the sarging when she needed me and all that shit you’d do for your wives…she wasn’t laid up all the time or anything like I wasn’t dating a corpse living in a hospital lol she just had to get some tests done every few months and a few rough surgeries and the mental wear of dwelling on potential complications etc was rough on her, but otherwise life was normal)

    When she was finally clear of her health problems, the vibe in our relationship had shifted (the whole thing was just too much weight too soon for too long for us, we were only a few months into our NRE when her problems started up, she gave me an out to bail at the start but I liked her and decided to support her through it), and she had that “I could have died, I need to dramatically change my life because I have all this clarity now and realize that I hate my job and hate the city I live in and want to be closer to my family etc etc” feeling that people who go through situations like that probably have happen. And after dealing with all that heavy stuff I was ready to be single and carefree again. So we wished eachother well and she went off to find herself. Again it was the right choice for both of us.

    If I had been legally married to her she would’ve taken half my stuff with her, or stayed with me and resented me for keeping her there, or I’d have had to uproot my life to go with her. Because we weren’t legally married, it was no problem to end it.

    Both girls were sweethearts (in both relationships we fought MAYBE twice each and they were minor fights at most, like heated disagreements is probably a better decription lol) and somehow ironically neither were party girls, both barely drank at all and preferred to stay in and chill. How the fuck did I end up getting girls like that instead of crazy party bar stars lol I wish them nothing but the best.

    I was the happiest past the NRE stage when I was in the pLTR, where I saw my girl every week (sometimes for a few days at a time) and had my Fri/Sat free to do my own thing, no guilt involved, no shame, no drama. I vividly remember sending a fuckbuddy home from my place after a romp (she was engaged to be married soon lol) then txting my GF to tuck her in and confirm plans for tomorrow, then getting txts from a new girl I met that weekend and thinking to myself “man, this is AWESOME.” lol Felt totally free and like I owned the world. Way better than the guilt/frustration I felt in a monoLTR where I had promised monogamy because that was just “what you’re supposed to do” according to my social conditioning.

    “or a marriage in the past?”

    Nope. But I have buddies and have met guys infield who are everything from happily in various LTRs, to miserable nightmare stories (some still in them, some escaped from them, some stuck with them for life). The happy ones are extremely rare and in pretty much every case the guy by sheer fluke is happening to follow the rules of attraction. The unhappy ones, well, I don’t wanna get all negative here but there are a few of them who I txt now and then just to make sure they’re not going to off themselves. All sorts of age ranges because I’m just so lovable.

    “Like maybe before you discovered Game?”

    Nope. Never even touched a girl or had more than a conversation with one before I was early 20s and found pickup. Got rejected by a girl I had a crush on when I asked her out in high school, does that count? lol If I hadn’t found PUA I 100% would have been the exact sad case that would be looking for your blog now, except I’d have a fat wife (who wasn’t hot to begin with), a couple kids that don’t respect me, a house I can’t afford but got because the wife wanted it, and probably be getting cheated on and on my way to a divorce-rape or being openly cuckolded. Almost 100% guaranteed that was my life course.

    “Have you knocked up anyone lately, maybe she doesn’t want to abort it?”

    Nope lol wtf But again I have friends and met guys infield who’ve been or are in that situation.

    Is it really that hard for people to believe that a guy could just take the problems of his fellow man seriously enough that he thinks it’s worth helping them or helping other men he’ll never meet to try to help them achieve long-term happiness?

    The PUA industry is a commercial industry now, but in the old days this information was basically free. Bootcamps cost a couch to sleep on. That Tyler Digest wasn’t behind some paywall, that was Tyler going out and sharing his field data with other guys who would go out and share their field data back so we could narrow things down into codifiable form for other men, who we didn’t even know, to learn this stuff. Because we were just excited to find a solution to something that the majority of society thought there was no solution/alternative for…it was just you either have it or you don’t. Turns out if you don’t have it you can LEARN it lol

    We didn’t go “well I have MY shit handled so fuck you guys figure it out on your own” or “I already KNOW this stuff jeeze could you all stop talking about it” or “ehh we can’t save everyone so fuck it”

    I come from a place of seeing other guys struggle and learning to understand where they’re struggling and why, and trying to help find solutions to consistently lessen that struggle for them. Just like I do when I break down a guy’s Field Reports…there’s no real tangible benefit to that for me. Ya it reinforces some concepts, but I could do that on my own, I don’t HAVE to write 10 pages breaking down Hank’s interactions giving him tips. Him getting laid doesn’t get MY dick wet. And in fact it takes time out of my day to DO it.

    But I do it because that’s the PUA community I came from and I know how much other guys offering help changed my life, and I know what it will do for Hank’s life, just like I knew what it would do for Scribblerg’s life, and Scray’s life, etc so I’m paying it forward.

    So ya, even if I’m not personally divorce-raped or have some kid I’m alienated from or have some FB knocked up, I still care about the men who ARE in those situations and I still want to help keep other men from ending up IN those situations even if those situations don’t directly affect me. Whether that’s my close friends, guys on here, guys reading this in a few years, or future generations reading this in some archive to try to figure out how to adapt to their current societal trends.

    It’s hard for me to relate to the mentality I’m getting from the old guys here of “It works fine for me and that’s all that matters, you must be asking because it must affect you otherwise why would you care so much about it?”. Like, does nobody give a shit until it directly affects them personally? Why is anyone here if it’s not to ultimately help the majority of men? Just to socialize and pat eachother on the back about how enlightened we are?

    Why do we care about Rollo’s books being printed and handed down for generations if we don’t care about those future generations of men we’ll never meet? How do we chastize the FI for not caring about an issue until it affects women on the one hand, and then on the other hand say “who cares about this issue that affects men, it doesn’t affect ME or MY “””Realm””””?

    on September 9th, 2016 at 7:27 pm
    Original Link

    This was a good weekend to be stuck inside lol COME AT ME BRO

    …yes, I’d imagine when you have 100000000 people doing something, the amount of them failing at it will be higher than when you have 100 people doing something.

    You wanna stop waving your dick around and put up some stats on the number of marriages? You know, like your OWN ARTICLE points out:

    “Some of the decline in divorce clearly stems from the fact that fewer people are getting married — and some of the biggest declines in marriage have come among groups at risk of divorce.”

    Fucking lol. And from the link THEY reference:

    “Men are more likely than women to remain unmarried, 23 percent to 17 percent. Part of that is linked to the fact that the share of men aged 25 to 54 who are not working has been increasing for 50 years. At the same time, 78 percent of never-married women say that a mate with a steady job would be very important to them, more than any other quality in choosing a spouse. ”

    combined with:

    ““The men who don’t have college degrees are doing so badly in the job market that they don’t seem like good prospects to the women in their lives,””

    combined with:

    “Yet she said it‘s not entirely an economic phenomenon; it’s also one about shifting social roles. “I do think it has something to do with the fact that in the professional class, because men are doing very well, they aren’t threatened in any way by a wife that works or is doing very well herself,” she said.”

    …equals nothing could go wrong at all with that, especially since jobs are so abundant these days lol We all know the best way to keep a woman attracted is to lay on the couch with no job earning less than her so she has to be the primary breadwinner of the family. That’s what everyone recommends right?

    But right from the opening paragraph of the study itself:

    “Marriage rates have also been falling, but more strikingly, the importance of marriage at different points in the life cycle has changed, reflecting rising age at first marriage, rising divorce followed by high remarriage rates”

    Soooo people who DO get married are getting married to very low SMV women probably close to or past the wall. HARD TO BELIEVE THOSE ONES AREN’T FILING FOR DIVORCE lol And the ones that do work out have a rising divorce age, so great, these guys can be single at 40 after marrying a 35yo.

    “that you have a 65% chance of not getting divorced if you marry today. And if you are a college grad, the chances are even better.”

    Sure, if you’re a college grad, marrying a woman in her 30s, because as the actual study paper itself says, women are getting married at later ages.

    “Most of the guys here are college educated, so for our purposes, you have an “average” chance of 30% of getting divorced if you marry today”

    To a wall-aged woman as put forth in the study, which is what we’re all after here (I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen it recommended to date and marry 30+yo’s, hopefully with kids and baggage and alpha widow damage), yes, go on…

    “sadly though, if you look carefully at the data, you’ll see that it’s really about male earning power, lower income equals higher rate of divorce since 2/3s of divorces are still initiated by women, that is pretty damning for them”

    hmmmm…now why would male earning power matter. Why, to a woman approaching the wall (as shown in your study), who’s signing a contract that says IF she’s unhappy she can take half his money possibly for life, would male earning power matter?

    HMMMM….it’s just so hard to figure out.

    And why, to a man who has high male earning power, and has signed a contract that his wife can take half of that money, would a man NOT divorce even if he’s unhappy?


    You really gotta read these things in-depth before you get so cocky dude lol

    “There are some other factors. Less people are getting married and in general we marry later”

    THOSE ARE PRETTY IMPORTANT FACTORS DUDE. lol The study doesn’t even take into account how many of the men in those marriages are happy and satisfied. Andy would probably have hit the divorce button if he didn’t have kids, but he’ll be in that “not divorced” stat. So will IAS who’s in a long-distance marriage he doesn’t even want to be in.

    How about you pull up a study about happiness rates in men? Here’s a stat about men for you:

    “Divorced men were over eight times more likely to commit suicide than divorced women (RRโ€Š=โ€Š8.36, 95% CIโ€Š=โ€Š4.24 to16.38). After taking into account other factors that have been reported to contribute to suicide, divorced men still experienced much increased risks of suicide than divorced women. They were nearly 9.7 times more likely to kill themselves than comparable divorced women (RRโ€Š=โ€Š9.68, 95% CIโ€Š=โ€Š4.87 to 19.22). Put another way, for every divorced woman that committed suicide, over nine divorced men killed themselves.”

    Even IF they were talking about marrying hot young babes in their prime in 2016, do you think a 35% chance of going through what you went through is something we should be cool with? When for every point of that 35% failure rate *9* dudes kill themselves?

    When we could come up with a system that has almost no chance of more guys ending up like you did? Encouraging them not to legally marry, collect evidence of being a better primary caregiver from day one so they get the kids, etc?

    It’s like your argument is “well it’s only 99% chance of being raped so GO FOR IT BROS!” lol

    But props for trying.

    on September 9th, 2016 at 8:14 pm
    Original Link

    “Then you are going to have to find an interest in changing the system, because the second a guy has a kid, he’s in the system.”

    That’s the one sticking point. Literally the ONLY point where a man can’t walk away (if he doesn’t legally volunteer to get married in 2016 like an idiot), is when they have a kid. That’s the ONE point where the girl has him by the balls (unless he volunteers to give her more hand like an idiot in 2016).

    Don’t know how to solve that one yet, but I know “adding less ability to leave and promising monogamy” isn’t going to solve it.

    “Game your baby mama perfectly, and some random asshole can still plunge your life into hell.”

    Yup. But at least if you don’t legally sign yourself up for marriage, you can avoid extra consequences.

    “And the arrangement of pieces on the chess board is not just bad, but is worse than most people would be able to believe, and the rules of the game are not those printed on the box. Most men only start to believe it when they’re already waist deep into the meat grinder.”

    Yup. This is my point. Guys have no idea how stacked against them this shit is until it’s too late. I’d rather warn them and give them an alternate plan with less risk, even if that’s “too negative”.

    “Call my stance ” traditional ” or anything else, but I have witnessed, first-hand, the mindless destruction and loss of morals and character that ensues when men are minimized and women are put in charge with the State as the Final Word.”

    Then what you ACTUALLY want is a return to organized religion, that controls men, puts the fear of god in everyone, and everyone start believing in that religion regardless of what your beliefs are.

    You can have morals and character WITHOUT religion. Do you think if Andy had a girlfriend on the side he would just turn into some ghetto thug getting dozens of girls pregnant and walking out on his kids and shit?

    And that doesn’t even factor into how many people IN those communities DO believe in religion/god/etc but still don’t have those morals and character that religion is supposed to give them.

    How in the world would legal marriage help any of that?

    “that a stable family MUST have a strong, male head of household to thrive and flourish and move forward”

    Agreed. No one disagrees with this. But legal marriage and promised monogamy (VS choosing to not bang other poon or bang it discreetly in your spare time) are not required for a family to have a strong male head of household. If anything, with the cash & prizes they’ll get in 2016, legal marriage makes it HARDER to be the strong male head of household because you’re the only one in that household with everything to lose.

    “A man must take responsibility for the guidance of his family, without any outside interference.”

    Agreed. No one disagrees with this. Legal marriage and promised monogamy are not required for a man to guide his family.

    “This is why when I sense that you are trying to find a non-traditional means to bring CHILDREN into the world, I tend to bristle.”

    So what do you want? Everyone to take up religion again, hit the church every week and learn them Godly morals? Do you think that’s realisitic? The reality is that isn’t working anymore because society has evolved. The traditional means is still producing fatherless children, guys in this very thread are or know guys who aren’t allowed to be an influence in their children’s lives.

    People aren’t going to just take up religion, and it isn’t necessary to take it up or to legally marry or promise monogamy to take care of your family.

    “It is not possible or reasonable for me to list the benefits of ” marriage ” or ” monogamy ” for a man who sees zero benefit and only loss in the endeavor.”

    Again all I’m asking for is what a man in 2016 who DOES want to have kids and a stable 2-parent household, what benefit does legal marriage and/or promising monogamy do for him that he can’t get without those things? That’s all I’m asking. It’s not a trick question lol

    “1) I do not believe that all women are in such bad shape that a man could never find a wife if he was so inclined. I agree that there are MASSIVE problems facing any man trying to establish a marriage or ltr. MASSIVE problems. But I do not find it rational to believe that ALL women are so fucked up that relationships with them beyond busting nuts is impossible or even ill advised.”

    How many women have you met in your street interviews that you would encourage your son to marry?

    “2) I do not believe that men are somehow absolved from their responsibilities as men, because women are difficult in 2016, or any other date. If the terrain shifts under your feet, put on boots and keep stepping. I believe it is not in the nature of most men to remain static. Figure this shit out and get what you want.”

    No one wants men to abandon their kids. We’re looking for how to get them better odds to be allowed to stay IN their kids’ lives, not OUT of it. I have NO idea why you started bringing this up. NO ONE wants absent fathers, that’s WHY we’re having the discussion of how to lower that trend since women are the ones primarily initiating divorces and restricting mens access TO their kids.

    “3) No matter what popular culture or notion says, I believe in the position of the man as the TOP position. It might be due to some religious influences, I will cop to that, but It is mostly due to what I’ve observed in my life. Men are fucking awesome!!!! ( nohomo ) Fuck all that FI noise.”

    Can’t imagine anyone here disagreeing with this. A lot of society (like a 2016 girl’s friends and family) would, but none of us here.

    “Now again, what is the benefit of marriage?”

    Anything, I’m fucking dying on the edge of my seat here lol

    “Firstly, regardless f what you may think, it is the best environment to raise kids in. Period.”

    In what way is this scenario:

    – 2 people, together for as long as you and your wife, who love eachother, live together, share parenting ideals, had a wedding, wear wedding rings, share the same last name, have eachother in their wills, and raise their kids together, both taking an active role in their kids lives and teaching them morals values etc through their lives

    a better environment than:

    – 2 people, together for as long as you and your wife, who love eachother, live together, share parenting ideals, had a wedding, wear wedding rings, share the same last name, have eachother in their wills, and raise their kids together, both taking an active role in their kids lives and teaching them morals values etc through their lives…except they didn’t sign a legal document

    Like, how does that legal document make that environment better for the kid? Serious question.


    “I am responsible for setting an example for my kids, and I do this with flair and great satisfaction. Part of the example is the interaction between my wife and myself – in front of them.”

    And could you NOT interact just the same with your wife if you hadn’t put your signature on a piece of paper? Were you two miserable and distance and cold and jaded around eachother until you signed that paper? No, you were probably just as lovey dovey as you are now. You don’t need the signature on a piece of paper for that and, as we learn from the MMSL strategy, a little dread helps INCREASE attraction.

    “One of the small reasons why my youngest daughter posts my old ass all over snapchat, is because she realizes that dad is pretty great, and she also has scores of school mates from single family homes.”

    We are not recommending single parent homes. We are recommending EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE minus the legal signature on a piece of paper. Why is this so hard to understand?

    We aren’t recommending being a drop in dad who pops in every few weeks to say hi. We are talking about 2 people living together doing exactly what your wife and you do in front of their kids.

    “Secondly, you can call it old school, but marriage is different from dating.”

    To YOU. To your WIFE (from another generation). To people in the PAST.

    But not to women in 2016. There is no hand of authority and automatic “man of the household” respect given to a man who marries anymore.

    “Idgaf if you are ” dating ” for 50 years, marriage is different”

    This is just feels based on your social conditioning. There is literally no difference between a piece of paper signed and unsigned except that signed it means you’re taking significantly more risk.

    If you TOLD your wife you were signing marriage documents and then just wrote in “SCRIBBLERG”, you would have the EXACT SAME RELATIONSHIP you have now except that you wouldn’t have a signed marriage document.

    “And yeah, society is doing everything humanly possible to destroy marriage ( I do not know why )”
    “that’s forces within society trying to fuck marriage up”

    This is my point. Those things make it harder to make marriage work. Unless you marry some old post-wall chick like Scribblerg’s study showed lol But I’m assuming we want men to have kids with <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.

    "It is an agreement between 2 people on a deeper level than ” you’re cool, I love you “"

    To YOU. To your WIFE (from another generation). To people in the PAST. But not to women in 2016.

    It seems like the hardest part for you to grasp is that a thing you very heavily valued and your wife values and your friends value, is becoming devalued.

    "It is an agreement that I think you are worth more to me than just a girlfriend. It is recognition that your woman has proved herself over time. It is the basis for forming a true family."

    This is all just feels. AND those feels require HER to feel the exact same way, which in 2016 where her Kim Kardashian influences divorce after 80-whatever days…

    "But I will not ever accept the premise that the odds of getting fucked in marriage is inevitable"

    No one's said it's inevitable. It's just VERY VERY DIFFICULT compared to your day.

    And again there's NO benefit to risking that. You can do everything you did minus the legal paper or promising monogamy. Literally your exact same life.

    "Just because a woman CAN do some foul shit, doesn’t guarantee that she will."

    Sure, but why not be with her, settle with her, live with her, have kids with her, raise them with her, and just be a bit less at risk if she DOES decide to do some foul shit.

    There's no logical reason to add a bunch of risk to this lol I can't even understand how I have to keep explaining this lol

    "On it’s face, marriage is an agreement between 2 people."

    It USED to be.

    "Maybe it would be better if everyone got married, alone in their livingrooms. Fuck all of the wedding and family and friends and wedding cake and pictures. That is not the main event. Don’t get sidetracked."

    Even BETTER would be having a ceremony, alone in their livingrooms. Without all the wedding and family and friends and wedding cake and pictures. Or even HAVING all of that.

    …but just NOT signing legal documents that risk half your shit.

    "If you can vet well, and locate the woman that sees marriage the same way that you do, TEST her over a period of time. You MUST see the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. this is imperative. You need to grasp the mechanics of desire also. As YaReally refers to the NRE ( I agree ), you may just turn her on standing around in your stretched out boxers. This is not a long term strategy though, lol. It does not mean that she has turned into an evil, sexless bitch. Get understanding about what sparks her desire ( she’s your wife after all ) and do that shit."

    I agree with all of this. Now do all of that but just don't sign that legal piece of paper. Do EVERYTHING ELSE YOU SAID except that.

    What benefits will you lose by not signing that piece of paper?

    "So I can’t say what one could get from marriage that they couldn’t get from pLtr’s or some such"

    Because there isn't anything lol Except feelings you've had socially conditioned into you, and so has your wife, but lots of girls in 2016 aren't and that's increasing.

    "if a guy does not first grasp what is different about marriage in the first place."

    You still haven't presented anything that 1) isn't just feels, or 2) doesn't require HER to have the exact same level of belief in it which, in 2016, is getting rarer and rarer unless you're in some super religious community which 90% of men aren't.

    "I f ” love ” baffles your mind, if the deepest level of commitment via mutual agreement makes you go ” meh “, I will never have a problem with any of that."

    Does it NOT bother you that your argument basically comes down to "but…but LOVE!!!!"? We look at the FI message a LOT around here, and a LOT of shit that isn't good for men is conditioned into them to do because "LOVE"…and you don't see the parallel between that and what you're saying about a lopsided contract with nothing but risks for the man for the sake of "LOVE"??

    I'm just fascinated at this point. Like, that the conditioning can run that deep even in a red pill forum.

    "But if you see relationships as having levels that differentiate between a SNL, girl I’m banging, and girlfriend – up to wife ( which is different from the previous designations ), then it is possible ( I said POSSIBLE ) that if you are willing to consider it, and do your homework, whether it’s 1916 or 2016, you might be successful at this thing."

    – Reward for going from SNL to "girl I'm banging": more frequent/reliable sex, good feels, etc Risk? Nothing.

    – Reward for going from "girl I'm banging" to GF: more frequent/reliable sex (maybe lol), good feels, deep connection, etc Risk? Nothing.

    – Reward for going from GF to to pLTR: more frequent sex and variety, good feels, etc Risk? A bit of drama now and then probably

    – Reward for going from GF/pLTR to Wife: _____(please fill in this blank)_____? Risk: EVERYTHING.

    Why would a guy want to even TRY to be "successful" at this thing? Love and religious beliefs is about it so far.

    "I know the popular notion says to eliminate all traces of emotion from your being, lol, but fuck that shit. It FEEEEELLLLSSSS nice when it works out."

    A lot of things feel nice when they work out, that don't risk you paying alimony for life to a girl fucking some Chad who's raising your kids while you live in a car lol

    "And I reiterate, you Must do your due diligence. Don’t bitch about it later if you married her because she was hot and you wanted to lock down that” 10 ” so all of your buds would envy you forever."

    Agreed. Why not do all of this due dilligence and then just don't sign a legal contract or promise monogamy?

    "1) Best option for a stable family. No debate."

    Agreed but the legal marriage contract and promising monogomy (VS simply choosing to not sleep around, like you choose) are not required to have that exact same stable family household.

    "2) When done right, you have someone in your corner who actually loves you by choice and the power of your will. lol."

    You can do this without a legal contract (since we know you can't negotiate desire/love) and without promising monogamy (which keeps her more attracted to you, as evidenced by the MMSL fixes that involve instilling dread and Rollo's bottle model job etc)

    "3) You have someone that you can see yourself in, like a mirror. She is a reflection of you."

    You can have this without scribbles in the shape of your name on a legal document and without promising monogamy but simply choosing to be with her the same way you chose not to fuck that street interview girl in the parking lot even though you could have…if you hadn't signed that legal document would you have railed her, that little scribble you made 20-whatever years ago is the only thing that kept your dick in your pants?

    "But if none of this means anything at all to you, I fully understand. No hate. Lol."

    It's not that it doesn't mean anything, it's all great. But it's all stuff you can have without a legal marriage contract or promising monogamy.

    "Once again, there are zero iron clad guarentees."

    Agreed, so why not lower the risk.

    "I did not lose half my shit, I had full access to my daughter 24/7, I did not get financially ruined."

    You were very lucky that you were raised to be an alpha dude. Do you think you in 392 BC (lol) were more or less alpha red pill than the hipster kids you see at work or in a cafe etc who will be rolling the dice on marriage to the girls you're interviewing on the street?

    on September 9th, 2016 at 8:19 pm
    Original Link

    Stefan rules. Here’s another good one:

    I recommend watching the Divorce Corp documentary itself:

    Just incase you don’t beat the odds trying to win a game that doesn’t have any benefits that you can’t get without entering this rigged legal system.

    …man I wish I was out sarging right now lol Someone pull out their tits!

    on September 9th, 2016 at 10:03 pm
    Original Link

    “OK. That went about how I thought it would. Waste of fucking time.”

    You recommended “LOVE” as a reason to sign a lopsided contract to red pill men. LOVE. lol

    “But I wonder how many reading along get that nothing anyone could ever say would spark the ” conversTion ” Ya says he’s trying to have.”

    Plenty of other people who actually get my point have contributed.

    “Even asking for examples or descriptors while fully intending to never change his stance regardless of anything that’s said.”

    You haven’t provided good logical evidence. You’ve provided “love” and “religion”. Don’t blame me for your shitty arguments lol

    “My lesson learned about you man. You aren’t what you espouse really. Lol, and your field tested bullshit.”

    What issue do you have with what I replied? This is what I’m talking about when you old guys go “no one wants our opinion” then we say “ok what’s your opinion” and you give it and we go “well that doesn’t really hold up actually if you look at it from the data we have–” “WHY WON’T YOU JUST LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE I’M OLD???!?!?!?”

    Sorry man, you gotta make logical rational arguments just like anyone else. You know what else guys are encouraged to do by the FI because of “LOVE”? Do I gotta make a list?

    “It was good that you Answered Rollo’s questions. You don’t understand relationships on any level, and you aren’t genuine about it.”

    In what way am I not genuine? Because you gave shitty evidence and I called it out as emotional feels, not good logical evidence?

    “Even encouraging Andy to nuke his marriage because you don’t believe in it at all.”

    I don’t WANT to tell you to eat shit, but now you’re just making up lies about me man. I was one of the people encouraging Andy to NOT nuke his marriage and instead talk to his girl and see what she’s open to, AND I was encouraging IAS to NOT nuke his marriage (in this very fucking thread). You don’t have to make shit up about me to fit your boogeyman stereotype of me.

    Anyone can scroll up and see where I told IAS not to nuke his marriage without thinking things through, and anyone can go back to Andy’s situation that I recommended the same shit especially since he has kids.

    You CLEARLY want to paint me as some kind of boogeyman because I don’t agree with your feels, but I figured you with all your manly morals and virtues would be above flat out lying.

    “But dudes here looking to you for answers deserve more from you if you really want to help them instead of pushing your agenda and point of view that everything is exactly as you state always.”

    I am totally open to other views, but you’re going to have to bring more to the table than “well, LOVE man!!”

    “Not one of my great grandparents ever had a marriage license. Not one of my grandparents was a bastard.”

    According to Blaximus they were absent fathers who didn’t care about their kids then, and one step away from being ghetto dudes shooting eachother and having 50 baby mamas.

    “In the US it was 1929 before all US states required a marriage license, so it could be viewed as a mid-20th century phenomena. A license is not part of forming a marriage. Never has been.”

    Hear that Blax? It’s possible to have a stable loving 2-parent long-term household that raises decent kids, without a legal marriage contract.

    “Yeah. Frame is dumb. This is interesting. Dread is too hard. So is frame. You need a fucking fainting chair bro? Red Pill. Swallow another.”

    Solid advice. Here’s more advice: Dread, frame, etc are hard. So swallow a Red Pill (like reading Rollo’s articles on “love” and negotiating desire) and DON’T sign a contract or enter an arrangement that makes Dread and Frame even HARDER, for no actual benefit that anyone can name.

    on September 9th, 2016 at 11:07 pm
    Original Link

    “Again, it’s written down that I never said anything about men going back to religion, but you hit me with it again. I don’t ever recommend religion to other men.”

    You brought up that a benefit of marriage is love and talked about how we need religious values and stuff to fix the ghettos and Make Marriage Great Again. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable interpretation of what you wrote.

    Much better interpretation than me telling Andy/IAS not to nuke their marriages without thinking shit through thoroughly and trying other options and you lying that I told them to nuke their marriages.

    @Anonymous Reader @Scribblerg

    From the comments on that article you swung your dick around with:

    “I hate to state what seems obvious, but the story seems entirely off base and the data show this. The lines of marriage by decade do converge on about 50%. Simple extrapolation from the 1990’s and 2000’s curves is all that is needed to predict the final number of lifetime marriage chances that end in divorce. Newer marriages have just not ‘caught up’ with older marriages. The headline and story are misleading. ”

    “It seems silly to separate them based off of when they were married rather than by giving overall divorce rates. Couples that have been together longer are bound to have a higher number of divorces. They should have shown projected divorce rates for the couples married since the 2000’s. The graph would have looked less dramatic but it would have showed the decline.”

    “I can count on one hand how many married friends I have. So if less young adults are getting married nowadays than in previous decades, less divorces will subsequently follow. Also, it’s extremely expensive to get divorced.”

    “Every one realizes of course that as a function of years of marriage the divorce rate for those married in the 90’s and 2000’s is lower then the 80’s and 90’s but higher then the 60’s. Also at its current rate, and of course assuming a similar trajectory as every other decade which has been a consistent mathematical finding, at the 20 year mark the divorce rate for those married in the last decade will be still higher then the 60’s and nearly 35% of all marriages will have ended. On top of that the actual difference is percentage points not the large gaps created by plotting the data on a limited scale on the Y-axis. And finally the rest of the article is wild conjecture at best.”

    “The chart indicates that all marriages reached the 15% divorce rate before the eighth year of marriage, with those married in the 2000s reaching it in eight years. Simple subtraction would mean that those marriages of shorter duration (2006-2014) have not yet reached the eight year threshold.”

    lol Now who would want to convince men that marriage is a good idea by putting out bullshit propaganda and hoping no one looks at it too closely (which apparently some guys don’t lol)……who would benefit from having men enter a lopsided contract that gives aging women their resources……hmmm……

    Why are you guys trying to help the FI chain men up?

    “Now. One of the most revealing things about this topic has been discovering just how much contempt you and SJW have for other men, based purely on money. You two just don’t give a crap about working class and middle class men. I’ll bear that character flaw in mind in the future.”

    lol I’m surprised at the amount of contempt for men who weren’t blessed enough to have their advantages in general. “Don’t wanna take risks, don’t have kids you pussy!” “Don’t know what I already know, then fuck you!” “Not born UMC well too bad for you!” uhhh what? What’s the point of red pill communities again?

    P.S. Meanwhile in flyover: “The [University of Iowa] already offers a first-year seminar on social justice as well as a “Justice for All” living learning community where students can live and “learn about systemic problems in our society.” University officials told The Iowa City Press-Citizen that both programs have been so well-received, with full-enrollment in the “Justice for All” learning community, that demand for an actual degree-program on the topic made sense.”:

    Get ready SJF, they’re coming your way…lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “I do know that women can and will change a whole bunch in a few years, and if their social circle is all about “Divorce that bum! You can do better!” it’s going to have an effect. “Social circle” isn’t just the playdate / kinder / family / church group anymore, either, it’s all her besties from the past on social media.”

    This. This has been my point since the start.

    “Dude, the margin for error is smaller now than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It is what it is. So men have to be even more vigilant in vetting any woman to marry, OR they have to find alternative ways to make the whole “LTR with kids” thing work.”

    Yup, all I’m saying is do the exact same thing you would have done if you got married and were monogamous, but just don’t legally sign a paper and don’t promise monogamy.

    This is such a simple concept.

    “Tell me. Am I defeatist for having fire extinguishers? Should I just be manly and say “Yo, I ain’t having any fires in my Realm, SO THERE!” instead?”

    lol another good analogy.

    “Get out there and wait for a grizzly shit on your face.”

    “But I don’t want that to happen. It would suck so bad.”

    “You need a fucking fainting chair bro?”

    “But why SHOULD I do it??”


    (plus you can get love without a legal marriage certificate or promising monogamy๐Ÿ˜‰ lol)

    on September 10th, 2016 at 10:21 am
    Original Link

    “Not much of a prize getting the cat when the kitten played the field. I guess being ‘Mr Good Enough’ to a woman with dwindling options, lower SMV, baby rabies and shrivelling fertility is a prize for some men. For some being Mr Settled For is not enough”

    Scribblerg’s study specifically states that the women in it are getting married older (lower SMV, less options, baby rabies, shrivelling fertility) and are seeking guys with high incomes (aka Providers making good money who will legally sign half of it over to lower SMV woman).

    That’s the data, right there, in that article. Is THAT what we want men to have here? Chase 30yo women (possibly with kids, alpha widow baggage etc) after they’ve finished with the cock carousel and legally sign a contract with them and then ask “now how can guys best navigate this contract that they’ve signed for no reason with a woman hitting the wall”?

    …what?? lol

    @Trent Lane
    lol thank god it’s clear what’s going on to people reading. The emotional pushback on this is unreal. I don’t get how I have to keep repeating this shit.

    “you would have understood what I meant by stating that those factors don’t “confound the analysis””

    They make the analysis useless, is that a better term, as a stats pro?

    “meaning that the estimates are valid and reliable despite those facts”

    Sure, the estimates are ABSOLUTELY valid…for guys looking to succeed at being Beta Bucks marrying women hitting the wall. The article itself literally lays that out. If that’s your goal for men, then we have very different views on what success is lol

    “And of course I read the article, stop being such a fucking arrogant punk nonstop – it makes you come off like such a dick.”

    You get to come at me being an arrogant dick, but when I do it back I’m the asshole? lol

    “Also, I could have written your response, I expected it.”

    lol well then you really shouldn’t have posted data that backs up what we’re saying.

    “Now here’s a lecture for you, son”

    bla bla bla your rant is just feels instead of facts and logic and data.

    “from a group of guys who mostly have genius IQs”

    That’s why I’m so surprised you guys are having trouble with simple logic. Trent Lane summed up exactly what this thread is looping around, everyone else can see how simple this is lol but you guys are emotionally invested in taking “marriage NOW is broken” as “YOUR MARRIAGES ARE ALL STUPID AND YOU’RE GONNA GET RAAAAAAPED”.

    “Yet you approach this with the presumption of your own superiority”

    It’s not MY superiority, it’s the superiority of my argument. The facts, logic, stats and data all back me up. It’s not my fault the counter-argument boils down to feels.

    “but you miss that this includes you”

    You brought a chart to the table that says divorce rates among Beta Bucks guys marrying women hitting the wall means marriage isn’t as bad a deal as we’re saying. Bring better arguments and I’ll be HAPPY to admit I’m wrong.

    Comes back to the same question I’ve had from the start that you old guy shave been dodging for 5 pages now:

    What benefits are there for a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy (VS voluntarily choosing to be monogamous)?

    Why can’t you answer this simple question instead of doing cartwheels around it?

    “I have a challenge for you. Try making arguments that fit in 3 paragraphs and are less than 1000 words.”

    I’d love to but you keep missing the point so I have to explain it more in-depth, thinking that you’ll get the point, and then you old guys completely miss the point, again, and again and again. See Trent Lane’s summary of this discussion.

    “Part of the growth a man typically has in his thirties is coming to “knowi what he doesn’t know”. You aren’t there yet apparently, but maybe someday you’ll get there.”

    Well if YOU guys haven’t gotten there yet, that doesn’t leave much hope for me, does it? Can’t wait till I’m 50 and I can tell young guys to just listen to me no matter what I say and no matter how few facts and logics I have to support it.

    “as the trend lines are based on the divorce experience throughout the entire lifetime of marriages and is a valid cohort analysis technique”

    Sure. Of Beta Bucks (as they said, high-income earning men) marrying women close to the wall (as they said, women getting married later in life). That’s nice data but it’s not really relevant to getting guys in 2016 to be able to raise kids with a <25yo 8+/10 in a stable 2-parent household.

    "Not very flattering, Ya."

    Still waiting for you to offer logic. The stats you brought to the table were debunked as irrelevant to the discussion at best, bullshit manipulated stats at worst. It's not my fault you didn't pay closer attention to it.

    "What I am saying is that the assumption that you are very likely to get divorced if you marry is not born out by the actual data."

    …if you're a "high-income male earner" marrying a "later stage in her life" woman. That's what your data shows. Facts are stubborn things.

    And again we come back to: whether you're likely to get divorced or not, what benefit is there for a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy? Why should it even MATTER if the divorce rate is 0.000001%? What are that other % getting from legal marriage and/or promised monogamy that they can't get without it?

    "There are men on this very forum who are married, and have been for the long haul and don’t see it this way."

    Yes, those men are really worked up about us discussing marriage in 2016. You know, not THEIR marriages. But the marriages men in 2016, looking to have kids with <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016, will be having.

    This is what I mean about you old guys being unable to not take things personally. "There's no reason for men ***IN 2016*** to get married." "What, you say there's no reason to get married ever AND THERE NEVER WAS??! WELL I HAD REASONS!! What my reasons were feels-based?! YOU IGNORANT WHIPPERSNAPPER!!" uh ya, sorry gramps.

    You entered a much BETTER contract than men in 2016 have in front of them, and you were raised in a culture that made it easier to succeed at that contract. Good on you, I'm happy for you, but those circumstances have changed for the 2016 man and 2016 woman.

    "To claim there is one way to see this, and that there is some ironclad truth about these relationships is simply out of step with reality."

    So just answer the question then: what benefit is there for a man in 2016 to enter a legally binding marriage contract with a woman in 2016, and/or promise her monogamy in 2016?

    I'd LOVE to see this "other way to see this", but the arguments from the old man side so far have been bad stats data about marrying old low-SMV chicks, and "love".

    "Of course, marriage is a risky proposition, but the question we are trying to deal with here is, “how risky?”?"

    Why? If it's risky at ALL, then there should be some benefit/reward to doing it. So what is the benefit/reward for a man in 2016 to enter a legally binding marriage contract with a woman in 2016, and/or promise her monogamy in 2016?

    Because if there's no benefit/reward, then it's a risky proposition without any reward. That's objectively a bad idea when you can have the exact same lifestyle (living with her, loving relationship for 40+ years, raise kids together, NOT sleep with other women, etc) minus the legal contract and/or promised monogamy.

    "And can we mitigate the risks?"

    For what benefit/reward, to men in 2016? Name anything at all.

    @scribblerg @SJF
    "“A job which was thanklessly analogous to defending monogamous marriage here among the colonists.” Nice one."

    lol see that's my point. WE are talking about monogamous marriage *IN 2016*. YOU are defending YOUR monogamous marriages.

    We are not talking about YOU. YOU got married when it was a better deal and there presumably WERE benefits (even though it was mostly feels-based). It's a worse deal for men in 2016…which is what we're talking about. Not YOU, or YOUR marriage or marriage to women in the PAST.

    How is this so hard for you "genius level IQ" guys to get? The solipsism is off the charts.

    "I suggest we proceed without regard to YaReally’s commentary on this subject"

    lol yes, that would make it a lot easier to ignore the facts and data and logic that show there's no reason to even entertain "how to beat the odds in marriage in 2016" when none of you can bring any actual benefit/reason to TRY to beat the odds.

    Men can have everything they get from marriage/monogamy in 2016 without a legal marriage and without promising monogamy in 2016, to <25yo 8+/10 2016 girls.

    "By now, we know everything he has to say on it as he’s done say 100k words repeating the same thing over and over again."

    I really wish you'd read it carefully at some point then. How about reading Trent Lane's summary, does it help if it has his name instead of mine on it so you aren't blinded by "fuck YaReally!!!" rage and can just look at the simple logical arguments?

    "He’s becoming scroll wheel material for me on this subject"

    I would probably want to scroll past someone decimating my arguments too lol

    "So, what say you to this question: How much does being Red Pill help one mitigate the long term risks of marriage?"

    Followed by: what benefits/rewards are there for a man in 2016 to bother TRYING to mitigate the long term risks of marriage in 2016 to women in 2016, VS just not getting married and living the exact same lifestyle as a married man, minus having those risks to mitigate?

    "I’ve mentioned here from time to time by pointing out that no one can always be on their game. And externalities can intrude like loss of job/money despite best efforts, health issues and even things like depression etc. I certainly witnessed a lack of compassion for any weakness or failure from my erstwhile wife. We also can make mistakes, as all humans do."

    hmmm…what can men do to mitigate the risks of severe conseqeunces for this…hmmmmmmmm…if only there was a solution. Wait, I know, what if he just doesn't sign a legal contract that voluntarily agrees to massive consequences if any of these things happen to him?

    "Is a man signing up for nonstop high-wire act by getting marriage?"

    All the facts and data and logic and stats point to "Yes".

    "Even more deeply, does the “burden of performance” outweigh the benefits of marriage?"

    What benefits are there for a man in 2016 marrying a woman in 2016? Still waiting for an answer.

    "My main takeaway is this if you want something go for it. Don’t listen to someone that says it can’t be done."

    We're just asking WHY it SHOULD be done? When you can get all of the benefits of it WITHOUT the risks?

    "Consider the fact that as a woman ages, her SMV is declining… while as you age – if you are not a fuckwit – yours is going up. I think everyone who reads here should be able to agree on those two points."

    Sure, I totally agree. This is backed up in Scribblerg's graph/stats he posted that explain how if you marry a low-SMV old woman, she's less likely to divorce you (if you have a lot of beta bucks ("high-income earning men" as his study puts it)). I 100% agree that an old woman with less options and smaller fertility windows etc is less likely to leave you, which is why guys keeping their 70yo wives around isn't really relevant to guys in 2016 trying to keep <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 around.

    "So as you proceed in relationship – married or otherwise – over a longer term she is declining in options while you – if your head is not firmly up your ass – are expanding your options (whether or not you act on them)."

    In the PAST, sure. In 2016, she is gaining options. Rollo himself has talked about some 40+yo chick he knows who has a ton of options online. This is what's changed. If you marry her in her prime <25yo and she's an 8+/10 in 2016 raised on social media, with male friends, working in a male workspace, she is gaining orbiters potentially till she's in her 40s.

    At what rate? Well, according to Tinder experiments she can rack up 900+ new orbiters in 3 days. If she's 23, that's quite a lot of orbiters by the time she's 40.

    Can a MAN rack up 900+ new orbiters in 3 days? If he's a rockstar maybe lol But I don't think that's realistic for Joe the Plumber (who, according to stats as Anonymous Reader pointed out, is less likely to avoid divorce compared to the UMC rich guys).

    "This is a great natural counterbalance to the overhyped rapacious hypergamy DivorceRaper’s would have you believe…"

    I'm not asking anyone to "believe" anything. That's what the "but, it's for love!" stuff is. I'm asking them to look at the facts data stats and logic, that all back up what our side is saying against, really, like 4 or 5 of you at most…none of you who are settling with <25yo 8+/10s in 2016.

    The guys who ARE trying to do that are running into the trends we're bringing up, they're literally telling them to you in this thread and without breaking a sweat I can link a dozen other threads from a dozen other communities all running into the same problems.

    "No add to that that you accrue “relationship equity” with your LTR – again if you are not fucking yourself left and right – so you have a wide margin for error…"

    See "The Desire Dynamic" and "Relational Equity" by Rollo Tomassi, he's an excellent writer. Here, let me quote some of the RE article for you:

    “For men, this is a logically sound idea. All of that investment adds up to their concept of relationship equity. So it’s particularly jarring for men to consider that all of that equity becomes effectively worthless to a woman presented with a sufficiently better prospect as per the dictates of her hypergamy.

    That isn’t to say that women don’t take that equity into account when determining whether to trade up or in their choice of men if they’re single, but their operative point of origin is ALWAYS hypergamy. Women obviously can control their hypergamic impulses in favor of fidelity, just as men can and do keep their sexual appetites in check, but always know that it isn’t relationship equity she’s rationally considering in that moment of decision.”

    Am I the only one who actually reads Rollo’s articles? lol

    “I can comfortably leave the table at a restaurant and find my wife still waiting for me when I return, she is not running off with anyone.”

    Again you guys make it personal. To your marriages, from a different time, under different social conditioning, to women with different conditioning, who have now lost their SMV.

    In 2016 a <25yo 8+/10 girl will whip out her phone and check her Facebook while you're in the bathroom, because as Blaximus has noted "they're so bored and don't know how to entertain themselves".

    Why can't you guys just connect the big red dots you're all dancing around? lol

    "I’ve been through ups and downs over 25 years, and made mistakes and fucked things up from time to time and she probably at times was pretty pissed and anxious about her choice… "

    Was she raised collecting 100+ new orbiters a day?

    "Now if you continuously fail the tests… no doubt you are increasing your risk of replacement."

    Then there better be a good benefit to men in 2016 to signing a legal contract that risks half their shit, right? What is that benefit for them?

    "But managing hypergamy, long term is not much different than managing your checking account"

    Except that if you miss a couple payments they don't take half your checking account and alimony for life with risk of jailtime if you can't pay.

    "It is not in any way a high wire act…"

    I think you have a very different definition of a high-wire act than most men lol

    "See this here paragraph is a perfect example of a guy who screwed up going in, lacked the knowledge to correct, fucked it up and suffered the consequence."

    Right? Now imagine if he hadn't signed a legal contract. Your sentence would end with "fucked it up" instead of "suffered the consequence".

    "i know dozens and dozens of 50 YO divorced guys."

    …this really isn't helping your guys' case lol If you know dozens and dozens of old divorced guys, and that was in a different culture where their wives didn't have 900+ new orbiters in 3 days and weren't checking their social media when you went to the bathroom, and they were men raised in a culture that didn't teach them masculinity was toxic, and THEY couldn't make it work with all those advantages, what hope do guys in 2016 have?

    "In nearly every case there were warning signs and red flags before marriage, continued signs during it, long periods of potential for correction met with inaction or ignorance and then the inevitable outcome."

    It probably would've helped for them to not sign a legal marriage contract then, I'm sure you'd agree.

    "A good test of your potential bride, what do your sisters and female relatives think of her?"

    Why not see what your sisters and female relatives think of your potential "bride, but not through legal marriage contracts, but still the chick that you call your wife, put a ring on, have a wedding ceremony and honeymoon with, live together and have and raise kids with and choose not to fuck other girls with"?

    The same thing, minus the unjustifiable risks.

    "As to some kind of new plan for the pLTR with children, all I can say is my name is bennett and I’m not init."

    That's totally fine. I'm not in it either (yet, probably someday when I'm in my mid/late 40s though), but I have friends who are, have been, or will be, and am bringing this up for men in general, the rest of this generation and future generations. It doesn't affect me personally yet but I'd like to have some better answers for guys than the traditional route that is blatantly broken and resulting in men not being allowed to see their kids while going through divorce-rapes or being trapped depressed in deadbedroom marriages etc (dem male suicide stats and all)

    I'm just planting the seeds of thought on the subject because someone has to. All we DO in red pill communities is talk about how marriage is a bad idea, but when it comes to finding alternatives suddenly it's a sacred cow lol

    Really it's just like 4 or 5 guys here, who aren't in the game at all, pushing back with feels instead of facts, and taking everything to mean THEIR marriages to THEIR wives from THEIR era instead of putting themselves in the shoes of men in 2016 dealing with 2016 women in 2016 culture.

    "What is gained by marriage is different for everyone"

    There is no gain for men in 2016. That's our point. Anything they gain from marriage, they could gain without legally marrying.

    "whether marriage is a winnable lifestyle choice in today’s culture"

    I would suggest that that's not our overall debate though. What I'm saying is that even if it IS winnable (which the stats/data/etc point to it being significantly harder to win at compared to when these old guys got married), what benefit is there to even TRY to win it, that they can't get without a legal contract?

    It's just assumed by default that marriage is what you're supposed to do so these guys are working from "how do we beat the odds?"…but the idea that marriage is even required to raise kids in a stable loving 2-parent household is just social conditioning.

    There's no actual benefits to marriage that you can't get without the legal contract, so why sign it and add a noose around your neck and hamper your ability to easily run dread game etc (the things that, when guys come to us for deadbedroom help, we tell them to do to increase their wife's attraction)?

    "Sentient concedes that but argues that with tight game and a successful life course, a man can navigate the world of marriage and have a good life."

    I don't even disagree. I've never said it was IMPOSSIBLE, just like winning the slot machine in Vegas (marriage in 2016) isn't IMPOSSIBLE. It's just significantly worse odds than winning a coin flip (marriage in the past).

    So if the odds are worse and no one can name any benefit to marriage that you can't get without the legal contract, why sign it and risk half your income (possibly for life), your house, your dog, your kids, etc on winning that 2016 slot machine pull?

    Why not just do everything you would have done but minus the legal contract so that if you don't win the 2016 slot machine, you just lost 25 cents?

    Seems like simple risk/reward logic to me and it amazes me that I have to keep repeating it to these guys.

    "I would generally agree with that but the truth is that as YaReally has said, Sentient really isn’t in a monogamous marriage. He’s in a stealth O-LTR."

    If he promised monogamy, then he's cheating on her. If he didn't promise monogamy, then he's breaking no obligation. He isn't a bad absent father like Blaximus implies non-monogamy turns every man into, he's just fooling around on the side in his own free time.

    So what's his problem with other men doing the same? Side-poon for me, but not for thee?

    "If he were really playing by the rules, and I mean morally, would he be able to generate the dread game and the upper hand that he undoubtedly does given that all his ONS must make his daily frame and subcomms rock solid?"

    Theoretically yes, like Blaximus and SJF are doing. But they're doing it with post-wall wives, who had different social conditioning from a different time where marriage came with better rewards for men (that's debatable of course though lol)

    But in 2016, with a <25yo 8+/10? Well, the guys inside and outside of our communities trying it don't seem to be faring too well. Some have pulled it off for a couple years so far with 2014 girls, but that doesn't tell us much because those guys are rare to begin with and the rest of guys are reporting/demonstrating the things that I'm bringing up.

    "And from what I am seeing, I would say that the situation is not as bad as the Manosphere argues. At least not in the Upper Middle Class white world that I live in."

    Sure, I don't even disagree with that. But is the situation better or worse than in the past? I think it would be hard to argue that it's BETTER or the SAME lol The stats alone show that, plus we can demonstrate women's options on Tinder and look at endless examples showing things have gotten worse since the old men's era.

    Does anyone have any reason to believe the trends will dramatically turn around and go in the opposite direction bringing us back to low/minimal divorce rates? Do trends NORMALLY just randomly 180 for no reason? Is feminism going to turn around and tell women being owned by a man and submitting to him in a marriage and hitting the gym to lose weight is wonderful?

    That's why I bring this up. Because even if it's not a totaly nightmare scenario now, down the road when we're all dead, it's reasonable to extrapolate from the data and trends that going to be even worse for men.

    A lot of us managed to escape complete total FI-conditioning, but the men who will be trying to figure this stuff out in the future will be FULLY FI-immersed from the day they're born…so I'd say we have better odds at getting the ball rolling on strategies, for them to have a framework to add to in the future.

    "Now do they provide NRE sex for their duration? No. But most men are not getting divorce rapped, although it does happen."

    What benefit are the ones not getting divorce raped getting that they wouldn't get without signing a legal document, but doing everything else exactly the same?

    "But this is where the man is the bread winner and the wife is either a stay-at-home mom or works part time at the most."

    An arrangement that is still 100% possible without a signed legal contract.

    "What I have seen though, is that most marriages with a career woman are usually shit. Yes, that the manosphere is right about."

    They're usually surrounded by other men that they only get brief glimpses at, who are putting on their best Mad Men impression, while their husband becomes "familiar" and boring to them. Now a hot 21yo girl can have 900 of those guys in 3 days with hundreds of messages from them promising her the world.

    "Although, even there, there are exceptions. One pattern that often works is when the woman has her children in her 20s, re-enters the work world (often after continuing her education) in her mid to late 30s and then has her career. I have seen a number of healthy marriages of that type; where there is respect between the partners."

    See, why don't we discuss that as part of the strategy? A man could "accidentally" knock his <25yo 8+/10 hottie (that he's not legally contracted to or promised monogamy to) when she's like 23, then pitch to her (because you're still in the NRE stage where she's more compliant) "look I love you and let's do this, after he's in kindergarten we'll get you back out to chase your you-go-grrl career". Then when the kid hits kindergarten and she's 26-ish, knock her up again and pitch the same deal. When that second kid is in kindergarten, now she's 32 or so, you've got 2 healthy kids you're raising together, and she's close to the wall with lower SMV, has fulfilled her biological drive, and her leaving you is less appealing so send her back into the work world.

    How about some feedback on THAT plan from the Blaximus, Sentient, Scribblerg, SJF, etc? What flaws do you old guys with your life experience see with that plan, besides "YaReally wrote it"?

    "But if you are a man like myself, who lived as a gamma up until 40 (!!) when he discovered game, then you will never be fit for marriage."

    What benefit do you think you're missing out on by not being fit for marriage as a man who isn't getting legally contractually married to a woman in 2016?

    "You missed your window and the best you can do is be an aging player with ever greater understanding of women."

    Couldn't you simply date a girl, love eachother, settle together, live together, have kids together, raise them together, and not sleep around on her? But minus the risky legal contract so that if you DID miss your window and are doomed to fail at it, you don't have significant consequences?

    "But if you are a man who gets his shit (and his game) together much sooner, and if you want to have children, and if you want to do it in the traditional way rather than the baby mamma setup (which for more traditional minded men is degenerate), then I would say it can be done."

    Sure, no one's said that it CAN'T be done. Just that it's harder to do in 2016 than it was in the old guys' era. And that there's no benefit to doing it that you can't have without the legal contract signed or promising monogamy (VS choosing not to sleep around).

    You can still be married as far as anyone around you is concerned, no one will see that you didn't write your signature on a piece of paper in your lawyer's office. But minus the risk.

    The only attachment is a socially conditioned feels-based one of "but it's the traditional way to do it!!" which doesn't balance out the risks in 2016 especially when you can do everything else that LOOKS like a marriage to anyone who knows you.

    "So you are both right in a sense, although I will side spiritually with Sentient in that the world is NOT as dark as the Manosphere and the MGTOWs paint it."

    Ya it's great. But there are clearly new realities and changes happening and I think it's best to address those if we want to see society get better instead of worse. This is the world these old men's grandchildren will be navigating.

    on September 10th, 2016 at 2:41 pm
    Original Link

    “Because usually if you want to do something that represent NO benefits for you (but benefits several other people), then it’s not really YOU that wants it, it just has been put into your head by social conditioning”

    Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

    That’s why I’m asking guys for logical reasons and why they’re fighting so hard to attack me personally instead of my argument or bring logical reasons to the table etc.

    Because their belief in legal marriage and promising monogamy is 100% socially conditioned. By a combination of religion and social conditioning and FI in general.

    The way to expose social conditioning is to corner it and shine a spotlight on it to reveal that there’s nothing there.

    That’s why the arguments come down to “scribbling your name on that piece of paper and not scribbling it are different, they just ARE, you either get this or you don’t”. And that’s why that’s a feels-based argument, not logical.

    The FI uses the exact same thing to get men to follow traditional disposable male self-sacrifice roles that are logically against male self-preservation, but are dressed up in feels and shaming and promises and myths to convince men to self-sacrifice for things like “love” or “manning up” or “doing the right thing”.

    Don’t ask her for a prenup, don’t you love and trust her? Marry her even though she’s a single mom, don’t you love her? It’s the right thing to do. Raise another man’s kids, don’t you love her and them? Take on her debt, don’t you love her? Share bank accounts, don’t you trust her? Don’t keep evidence that it was consensual, don’t you trust her? Stand up to her when she mouths off to someone bigger than you and then cries victim, don’t you love her? Rescue the princess from all her troubles, don’t you love her like a REAL man? Work yourself into the grave to buy her the newest biggest things, don’t you LOVE her?

    It’s just writing your name on a piece of paper VS not. You can do literally everything else exactly the same.

    If SHE believes marriage is “special” (which is debatable in 2016), cool, there’s some gravity to the word. But the amount of girls that view marriage as “special” and different from being a girlfriend in terms of their own mentalities/behaviors is decreasing to less and less of them, and there’s no indication that this trend will reverse (because why would it?)

    Like I say, the pushback is fascinating. This is what happens when you try to cut the head off the social conditioning hydra. It just keeps growing back meaner and more determined to bite you for exposing it.

    “It’s interesting to me that you gave me a pat on the back for job well done in getting my wife to actually want to fuck me with desire these days. While YaReally wants to be off yonder in another tribe and tool me with AMOG tactics for it.”

    So MY relationship history is perfectly fine to AMOG and discredit me with, but yours isn’t. Rules for thee, not for me.

    “Red pill and game is a tool and it depends on who is wielding that tool. Put it in the hands of an inscrutable mastermind like me and it makes all the difference in the world.”

    Sure. No reason to legally marry though. You could have the exact same perfect dream life you have now without the legal contract. If not, throw us some reasons why not. We’ve been waiting to hear them.

    “If you can tell it’s actually fun and doesn’t seem like a high wire act or risky to me at all.”

    The guy who climbed the Eifle Tower was probably enjoying himself and confident in his abilities. That doesn’t mean that objectively it’s not risky, especially for other men. But he can list benefits he got from doing it (like a barf-inducing youtube video) that he coudln’t have gotten without doing it.

    So again: what benefits are there to a man in 2016 to get legally married and/or promise monogamy to a girl in 2016, in 2016 culture?

    “The net result for me is that I am doing something right now that I wanted to do all along, and am doing right now, which is exactly what I aimed for.”

    You could have done everything you’re doing now without signing the legal document and without promising monogamy (but simply choosing not to fuck other women).

    “Being who I am and doing what I want to do and being able to control the direction of my life. With a fine woman and good young adult children who are welcome to come along for the ride of my life.”

    Legal contract and promising monogamy were not required to obtain these things.

    (unless the argument is “but she wouldn’t stay with me if I didn’t” which would mean bargaining from a place of scarcity and be no different than accepting a girl who texts orbiters at the dinner table because if you don’t accept that she won’t stay with you. Exact same thing)

    “Also interesting that Gb_Hill is cosigning something I would say about the numbers he is seeing in the UMC community. Sorry I’m more elite myself and AM seeing it work at higher numbers than 2/3 rds he quotes.”


    “But then again this is me driveling on because I believe that with effort, intelligence and consideration, nothing is impossible, while at the same time I believe that people are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve those fantastic results.”

    Don’t worry, we all know the contempt you feel for people who you think are beneath you.

    “and I thought Rollo’s blog was all about uncovering all these social conditioning influences that are detrimental to guys.

    What guys here advocate is in direct line with the FI, that’s a bit scay tbh. That EVEN HERE guys follow the FI logic”

    Isn’t that fascinating? That’s the part I’m hooked on with this lol These are like the big alpha old guys who go on about being detached from society’s foolish system and immune to social conditioning etc

    Even ROLLO it seemed like, was considering jumping in on their side of the fence for a second there (but I can’t say for sure, so I don’t want to put words in his mouth or anything, I just thought he was gearing up to jump in lol) which would be REALLY scary.

    Because this is VERY obviously in alignment with the FI self-sacrifice etc that I can literally just point to Rollo’s writing to debunk and categorize this stuff as FI-conditioning to get men to enter lopsided deals that don’t benefit them.

    Like how deep do the tentacles go if guys like this are compromised at the core?

    “When I said “I want a divorce” boom!!!! suddenly she’s dressing hot, buying me gifts, cooking, planning a birthday party… when I suggested counselling finally after 9 months of separation…myeh…she thought a divorce was a good idea afterall and got remarried.”

    So dread worked, as we all know from MMSL/CH etc. Logically, a constant state of soft dread (like Rollo’s job with bottle models) is better than making her your only option. This is my point. This logic is so consistent with attraction principles.

    “Now….girl is giving me grief: 1) soft next…off the grid. 2) bang other plate 3) set up meetings with other girls …rinse and repeat.”

    And you can do that, because you aren’t legally tied to them or (I assume) promising them monogamy. Now you COULD just hang out with one of them a lot, deflect her shit-tests and hold your frame and tell her to cut out the “silly bullshit games/drama” etc the way Blaximus did once he got married (which he could’ve done before getting married but was socially conditioned not to or simply didn’t think to or wasn’t strong enough in his beliefs at the time to), live together, have babies, raise them together in a loving 2-parent household like a lot of Poly/Open/Swingers/etc (who do those things in their private time, not parading strangers around their kids), etc all without legally signing a piece of paper or promising her you’ll never have side-poon.

    “Wife posting hot photos on InstaGoogleTweetFace? you put your foot down…doesn’t work…….you better have a decent option.”

    Yup. You could just threaten to walk away but whoops, then she cashes in and before you can finish your rant about how she has to change her behavior, her new Tinder account has 300+ matches and her social media friends are telling her “omg he’s yelling at you?? Ditch that loser he’s abusive!! He wants to cut you off from your friends!!”

    But when you can easily walk away and she DOESN’T cash in, she just LOSES, there’s a chance she MAY voluntarily decide that’s not worth it…because that’s how dread game works.

    “Ever told your wife to fuck off? Doesn’t work out so well…”

    In Blaximus’ house when his wife misbehaves, SHE probably has to sleep on the couch, because he’s an alpha dude…but the stereotype in society is the man in the doghouse sleeping on the couch for a reason.

    “noted lethal weapon bit. will do more stuff like that. I think that is the answer to my “spike BT super fast” bit. just randomly do something like that “oh, I am gonna tell everyone you stole that HEY OVER HERE THIS CHICK IS STEALING!” do more stuff like that to spike BT fast.”

    Ya, it seems like that’s along the lines of your natural sense of humor and self-amusement, so just run with it. It also shows that you aren’t bothered by social pressure.

    But calibrate it down for a shy quiet asian girl who probably won’t be as able to handle social pressure compared to a feisty outgoing loud chick where you can dump tons of social pressure on yourselves and she has fun.

    “since I already sort of had a day 2 on my day 1, I am trunkating the day 2 to go to the isolated garden area sooner than I usually would.”

    I think you have enough A2 to do that. Remember that when you meet up again you won’t be starting from where you left off, you’ll almost be starting from back in A1. It won’t take nearly as long to get back to where you were, but like, don’t be thrown off if her vibe when you meet up is a bit cold shouldery, she just needs some A1 and possibly to run through the A1-A3 process again to refresh to her hindbrain “oh ya this guy is awesome”. Most guys get stung by this a few times before they figure it out lol (“we made out at the bar!! and she came out to meet up with me again!! now she won’t even take her jacket off??”)

    “thing is I already set up the time for the day 2 — that was what I made her reapeat over and over. so I can’t really pitch the whole “when’s a good time for you?” I *can* do that for a day 3 to get a day when her roomate isn’t there.”

    lol should be alright. Just keep it in mind for the Day3 and don’t get thrown if she does put up resistance to going back to her place on the Day2…she might be fine with it, we don’t KNOW that she’s worried about the roommate at all, she may have shaved her vag and everything for you for the Day2 and be fine with taking you home, so try it and just calibrate if not. Try to pre-empt her resistance, like if you pitch coming over and sense resistance you can throw out an “actually fuck, I can’t tonight, I have a thing in the morning…well whatever, next time, let’s just enjoy this walk” Use your judgement to decide whether to push forward for the Day2 lay or pre-emptively back off for the Day3 lay. Just throwing the usual possibilities at you so you know what to expect.

    “okay I guess I see where this is a solid instadate and all — but like I was saying to forge — since nothing physical actually *happened* its kind of hard to see where you’re like you can fuck off of what you have done so far”

    lol right. The reality is pickup CAN look flashy, but it doesn’t have to. As long as you flip the key switches of seduction, how you hit them or how flashy they look don’t really matter.

    Like watch that Mystery vid I linked where the blonde girl is hounding him for her number. She’s massively attracted even though he hasn’t DONE anything physical, he hasn’t even kissed her and barely touched her, but it doesn’t matter because he’s flipping the key switches.

    For new guys especially it can be more reassuring to have big blatant green flashing light iois, because they aren’t used to girls wanting them at ALL and are worried about fucking it up so they want more reassurance…but when you’ve been with a bunch of girls you realize “ok this is going well” with a lot more subtle indicators.

    “strangely, I don’t feel good about it now actually. like usually when I read write ups it makes me feel better and gives me a boost. so I can see “yeah, I did good at this part”. here I did a lot more, went on an instadate and all. . .but I’m not getting that good vibe here.”

    lol don’t worry, everything you did was solid from a technical standpoint and pickup is very technical under the artistic surface.

    “a lot of it is just from girl being more esl and doesn’t give as much feedback. so I’m not getting the same huge reactions like I would get from a blakc chick.”

    Right, that goes back to what I said about needing more reassurance with bigger blatant indicators. As Alex from RSD said “attraction looks like her just quietly paying attention to what you’re saying”. At least with the shy girls lol

    “still paranoid about girl, think she might flake.”

    She might, but you can’t control that. All you can control is sticking to your plan which is a solid plan, and then adapt to whatever happens and if she flakes, she flakes, you can try again with her. Pay attention to whether she just flakes or whether she flakes while offering an alternative plan etc etc

    “while UMC marriages aren’t ending at nearly the average rate, UMC marriages have the same problem with dead bedrooms as non-UMC marriages.”

    This is a pretty logical conclusion that any sane rational male (lol) would make. But according to SJF, who can see into all those bedrooms, everything is perfect in UMC land (where he’s the only one here who’s in it or comes from it or is around it lol).

    “I see lots of older UMC women who have become whales. Dead bedrooms for the loss.”

    Scribblerg’s stats for “women marrying later in life” to “high-income earning men” (aka wall-approachers settling with beta bucks) doesn’t take into account happiness levels of the men or numbers of dead bedrooms or how the woman looks etc. I bet THAT chart would be fun to look at lol

    “I vote with YaReally on marriage. Call me a cunt if you like, IDGAF. LOL”
    โค It's really only like 4-5 old dudes here throwing a fuss and at least one of them (Blaximus) doesn't even really understand my position (he seems to think not promising monogamy and not legally marrying means SJF would just go out and knock up 50 girls and run out on his kids lol which makes no sense, Sentient is fucking on the side and he's not some absentee father) and would probably agree with me if he could stop taking this shit as a personal attack on HIS marriage instead of adding "in 2016" to the end of everything.

    "If my son or Sentient’s son (at any age) decided to “lock down” a HB8+ at her age of 23 in the next ten years. Because he wanted to. I’d tell him to go for it after him vetting her the best he could for two years. If he wanted to be with her indefinitely because she was better than other girls out there along the way. If he wanted to have children and raise them to adulthood. Married or not, monogamous or not carry on the LTR."

    Sounds great to me. I'd high-five him. There's just no reason he can't do all of that without the legal marriage contract (just like our great great grandparents did) or promising monogamy (and simply choosing to not stray on her, which, really is a pretty big compliment on her end, that he's ALLOWED to have other girls but chooses her OVER them VS being contractually obligated to choose her).

    This is the arrangement I'd like to see and why I'm bringing the topic up. How can we equip your son, in his red pill training he's getting from you, to navigate arranging this setup without a legal marriage contract or promising monogamy. (hell, he can even promise monogamy if he wants to not piss off God or whatever, it's more the legal marriage contract part that has the worst consequences lol)

    "See, it is not true there are no benefits of this to him."

    In what way does it benefit him that he can't have the same benefits without legal marriage? He can still lock her down, vet her, be with her indefinitely because she's better than other girls, have children with her, and raise them to adulthood with her, and even just live together forever happily ever after.

    None of that requires a legal contract and insane levels of risk.

    "And what the fuck is wrong with “benefiting” your woman partner or, FFS, benefiting your children?"

    You can benefit them the same way without a legal marriage contract. Write up whatever legal documents, wills, etc you like to ensure that they're taken care of, as we discussed with kfg/DisgruntledEarthling earlier in the thread. As far as your children know, you two are married, they will never know that 5 years before they were born you didn't move your hand in a scribbling motion on a piece of paper in a lawyer's office. You don't have to put up a banner saying "WE AREN'T LEGALLY MARRIED EVERYONE" on your front lawn, you just handle it in private and everything else you do exactly the same as if you had signed it.

    "And no one can tell me logically there is no benefit to this."

    Well, yes, we CAN lol If you can tell us what benefit there is for your son to marry that girl, that he can't get without legally signing that contract, great, we'd like to hear it so we can analyze it and see if there are alternatives for him to get that same benefit minus the legal risks.

    If you can't name any benefits that he can't get without signing the legal document, well, then there aren't any.

    "And no man should operate out of fear that someone will take half his shit, so why try to do what he wants to do."

    Ok, will you post the password to your bank account? Probalby not. Because that's a risky situation with no real reward for you and no one here can give you a reason it would benefit you, only put you at risk.

    "If he doesn’t want to raise children well and have a solid plan for that, then don’t. I don’t need other peoples shitty kids around."

    No one is advocating for absentee fatherism.

    "You implied marriage. I didn’t just now."

    I just agreed with you up above specifically because you didn't mention legal marriage. I think the arrangement you described in the first paragraph about your son and a girl is a fantastic arrangement. Inarguably the best environment possible to raise a kid in. It just doesn't require a legal marriage contract (or promising monogamy).

    You SEEM to be understanding this now, so I'm more talking to the crowd reading this.

    "But then again, I’m not out to save all 90% of inept lost boys in the manosphere."

    Yes, we're very aware of the contempt you have for men who you view as beneath you.

    "If it didn’t work out and he fucked up. Even if he cuts his losses. At any time he can adapt and dump her."

    Yup, it would just be easier for him to do so if he wasn't contractually obligated to give her cash & prizes and pay alimony for life etc on TOP of the child support.

    "LTR game on the other hand often means not walking away when one meets resistance. It means bellying up to resistance and smirking “No Big Deal” and not walking away because your superpowers (Mastery) was not adequate to overcome that resistance."

    Agreed. So why not avoid hampering your ability to fully use those superpowers with a legal contract when there's no benefit TO signing it?

    "Notice I didn’t say marriage."

    I'm glad that you aren't. We probably agree just like Blaximus would probably agree, once you guys stop taking this as a personal attack on you and your marriages from your time. We are talking about men in 2016, getting legally married to women in 2016, in 2016 culture/influences.

    "It is quite necessary to do this without emotional weakness on the part of the man. How the fuck otherwise would she ever respect you?"

    Agreed. It would probably be easier to not show emotional weakness if you didn't have half your assets, alimony, etc dangling over your head. Imagine just how little emotional weakness you would show if you had no consequence at all for her deciding to leave you (relatively speaking compared to a 10+ year married guy who's in lifetime alimony "accustomed to a certain standard of living" territory).

    "If the Next! hammer is relied on as your most used tool in the toolbox just because it works well most times, perhaps you should acquire more Game tools."

    I don't disagree with this, walawala is close to seeing BPD around every corner and should be careful of that, buuuut I also think you need to go out and date a bunch of 2016 girls to understand why he's banging the hammer so frequently lol We are working with different materials than you guys were, in terms of what women bring to the table and what behaviors and beliefs have become socially acceptable for them etc

    "most of the time when a guy isn’t successful in a relationship with fine, non-defective femaleit’s because he wasn’t good enough to accomplish the goal."

    Then he DEFINITELY shouldn't be signing a legal marriage contract.

    "Pretty much every man that turned around his game in married red pill has come to the realization that it was him the had his head up his ass and improved his game."

    Now if only they could tell us what benefit they received from legally signing that piece of paper that they couldn't have gotten by just executing all that red pill badassery in the first place…? Want to try to answer that question? lol

    "There is an awful lot of conflating Marriage with marriage(tm) going on in this thread."

    Agreed. I wonder if it's an issue of like, these old guys haven't really been around alternative types of relationships and haven't SEEN couples who are perfectly happy together raising decent kids but simply aren't married or promising monogamy etc. Like, have they just not seen anything but bad examples of that (like the ghetto which has problems related more to poverty and other shit that are causing what we see there)?

    It's like they have two options:

    1) be legally married and live together in a loving 2-parent happy household raising good kids


    lol like, just don't sign that piece of paper but do EVERYTHING else the same. Why is this hard to grasp?

    on September 10th, 2016 at 2:57 pm
    Original Link

    @Trent Lane
    “You can’t really expect other men to share intimate details of their marriages, why they married, what they see as benefits of their life situation – stuff that COULD be very useful to the content of the discussion – if you constantly refer to their OLD POST WALL MENOPAUSAL WIFES, GREAT THAT YOU GAVE YOUR 60 YEAR OLD WIFE A RIDE AGAIN LAST YEAR BRO, THAT DOESN’T HELP ANY YOUNG GUY JACK SHIT IN 2016!! when they fail to share your point lol.”

    lol these are relevant details though. Their wives are old and past their prime SMV, this is just logic, widely accepted across all red pill communities. I’m sure they’re GREAT PEOPLE and I’m sure they love eachother a ton, but when we’re discussing making an LTR work, a post-wall woman is a very different situation than a 21yo.

    We can avoid pointing that out, but then the discussion is tainted by avoiding stepping on toes which starts turning things into a hugbox where we avoid uncomfortable truths.

    It would be more useful if they could check their emotions for a second and go “okay, that is OBJECTIVELY not debatable, my wife is still a great person and I love her but yet, she IS objectively by any red pill age measurement, past the wall and the experiences I’m sharing are in dealing with a woman who is post-wall, which is not what men in 2016 are looking to settle with so yes, my experiences will have less direct relevant than if we could go back in time and we were talking about guys in my era picking up girls in our culture”.

    “That’s why I tried to summarize the discussion”

    Your summary was fantastic and reading it I was like “yes this is exactly what I’m seeing, thank god someone else can see it”. But will any of them read it or stop and go “oh, okay, I guess my points aren’t really making sense in this context”? It would be nice if they did lol but Blaximus probably thinks you’re just an asshole like me for writing it out.

    “I too believe the content is vitally important for the majority of men in the year 2016 and coming generations and don’t want to lose track of it.”

    Agreed. Like I say, none of Rollo’s Red Pill parenting books are going to matter if we can’t find a way to keep men in homes around their children, and the current system is progressively NOT doing that, and we have no alternative system right now which WILL probably result in everyone “winging it” and widespread ghetto culture…unless we can give men a solid alternative plan to consider and train them on it.

    I presented a plan to kfg (I think) a couple comments ago about when to knock a girl up and have her focus on her career later in life etc, and asked for the opinions of the old married guys…will any of them read it and offer any opinons on it? I don’t know, but it would be nice if they did so we could work out kinks and flaws in it.

    “And the key question remains: If you want to have kids and raise them in a stable man-woman household in the year 2016 as a positive father figure, is there a way besides marriage and monogamy we can work out, at least theoretically?”

    That’s all I’ve been asking from the start lol But to even GET there we have to get past legal marriage and promising monogamy (when she has social media, orbiters, works in male spaces, males in her social circles, etc) as even being an OPTION.

    “– Suggestion: Ideally getting your partner pregnant early, fast and young instead of delaying it past the NRE stage.

    Pro: There’s the bonding, she’s occupied, emotionally invested, has drama + feelz + less time and intention for orbiters and nuking the relationship out of boredom, yes/no?

    Con: This takes sharp screening skills because getting the wrong woman pregnant, as we all agree, can fuck your life. This sort of screening skills only come with an amount of game/experience
    that at the present moment 0,000000789% of the male population possess. The others would have to bet on sheer luck, which is not an option we can legitimately recommend, yes/no?

    – Suggestion: After initially getting your partner pregnant early, ideally keeping her pregnant again during critical phases of the LTR aka the seven year itch.”

    Holy SHIT, see NOW we’re getting somewhere. I sincerely thank you for writing this next part up and actually doing what I was hoping would be done back when I originally brought the discussion up. I thought we would all do something like this and contribute, I didn’t expect to run into this massive wall of rage.

    I’m bolding this so it stands out, so maybe people can re-read your post and go “oh okay, I get it, I’ll contribute my old man wisdom to this discussion now, where do I see pros and cons in these ideas from my wise old man perspective?”

    So THANK YOU, for helping finally START the discussion.

    Posting this before I respond to it, to hopefully cut off more argument flame war shit. Can everyone please read Trent Lane’s post:

    Thanks again Trent, this is literally all I’ve been asking for from the start.

    on September 10th, 2016 at 3:32 pm
    Original Link

    @Trent Lane
    AGAIN thanks for participating. This is literally exactly the type of thing I THOUGHT everyone would be excited to do off the initial discussion topic. I didn’t expect to run into having to convince people legal marriage and promised monogamy and taking needless risks with no tangible rewards that can’t be obtained in other ways, were not optimal beneficial things for men lol This is all I’ve been wanting…let’s look at potential strategies and figure out the pros and cons of them, combining all our knowledge of attraction, experience in relationships, marriages, etc and find a better system with a lower risk rate.

    “– Suggestion: Ideally getting your partner pregnant early, fast and young instead of delaying it past the NRE stage.”

    “Con: This takes sharp screening skills because getting the wrong woman pregnant, as we all agree, can fuck your life. This sort of screening skills only come with an amount of game/experience that at the present moment 0,000000789% of the male population possess. The others would have to bet on sheer luck, which is not an option we can legitimately recommend, yes/no?”

    Agreed. Men would have to learn to screen faster. Although one could ask: do you really know your partner THAT much better after 7 years than you did after 2 years? Like how many shocks and unexpected things about them REALLY pop up in year 5 that you had NO idea about in year 1? Like I’m probably not going to discover any real shocking revelations about a buddy I’ve known for 10 years at this point, and most of what I know about him now I knew in the first year of hanging with him.

    The early stages are when the main surprises come out…the first few months a lot of stuff is hidden obviously, and for the duration of the NRE stage a lot of stuff is toned down.

    So we could look at what are the prime moments where a girl has incentive to “let her hair down” and either let things out that she was hiding, or simply slack off on things because she feels less risk in doing so:

    1) After the first 3-5 months, when she’s still in the NRE but you two have fallen into enough of a routine that she isn’t necessarily bringing out her full A game like she did in the first month or two…what signs can a guy be looking for at this stage? Does she have healthy gym habits, has she slacked off on going to the gym now compared to when you met her? Have you tested to see if she cooks/cleans/etc? Does her apartment look messier more often now than when you first met? Has she ever cooked for you and how enthusiastic is she about the idea? Is she still pushing for sex as frequently as month 1 or are you initiating it more? How is her social media usage around you?

    2) After that probably the NRE stage ending between 8 months to 2 years is where the next big wave of “holy shit I didn’t know she was like this” comes out. So again, re-evaluate those same things and add some more now that you’ve probably met her family etc. What are her parents like and what can you extrapolate from their behavior/belifs? These are standard screening things but here’s an example of a change:

    A lot of guys right now try to AVOID meeting the family for as long as possible, because it’s awkward and shit. And they approach it from a frame of the family screening THEM to deserve their daughter. But if a guy is looking to settle, we could encourage him to actively try to meet the family sooner, like in the first 6 months, to help screen her faster, and to have the mindset of screening THEM and HER to help vet quicker.

    3) Once you promise monogamy, more shit wil come out, as she doesn’t dread losing you like at the start.

    4) Engagement ring, where she gets nice and comfy and spends her time planning a wedding where you can see how much she cares about the wedding and validation VS caring about you and the relationship etc

    5) After the wedding/honeymoon and her big validation party are over, how does she behave?

    6) Legally signing the marriage contract, where you’re locked in.

    7) Her being pregnant, where she can use hormones as an excuse for a lot of shit.

    8) After the kid’s a couple years old where you can see how much effort she’s going to put into getting back in shape and being pleasant etc, or if she’s just going to let everything go.

    Stages 3 and 6 we can avoid completely by just not doing those things…Stages 4 and 5 you can voluntarily do if you like, to give the illusion that you’re legally married without signing the contract, but they’re technically optional.

    Stage 7 and 8 are mandatory, because the whole point of this is having kids. So ultimately stages 1, 2, 7 and 8 are the mandatory ones that every guy WILL have to deal with. So that’s 4 times where her incentive to keep up good behavior or not reveal bad behavior are compromised.

    The guys who like the IDEA of a traditional wedding and monogamy etc have to do 1, 2, 7, 8 as well, but would also voluntarily be adding 3, 4, and 5 to it (avoiding stage 6). So that’s 7 points where her incentive to keep up good behavior or not reveal bad behavior are compromised.

    A guy following the FI conditioned traditional route would be running into all 8 stages and stage 6 is a MASSIVE one because of the relative value of what that stage is worth VS the other stages.

    So say we equip a guy with specific things to look for, and have him doing things like meeting the family sooner rather than later (with the intention of getting her preggers within the NRE stage so in <2 years). What other things could they do that they would normally do in year 5 or 7, but could be ramped up to that first couple years?

    Also, we could look at what things aren't WORTH screening for now…which takes us into what SJF was saying about walawala's NEXT-hammer. The reality is, you're probably going to have to accept a few flaws, nobody is perfect, I'm sure every married dude here could name a few objective not-a-big-deal flaws with their wife.

    Like you're probably not going to find a <25yo 8+/10 in 2016 that doesn't have at least FACEBOOK, or SOME form of social media. And trying to get her to delete all of that is unrealistic, it'll trigger family and friends to whisper in her ear about how you're abusive and fuck with the relationship. So screening for girls who have social media at all, is probably going to weed out a lot of girls that, if you got them preggers young, would have too much else going on to bother maintaining that…VS if you have a monoLTR for 7 years with her and she's bored because she doesn't have kids to keep her busy. So getting them preggers earlier rather than later might help counter the social media stuff which means a guy might not HAVE to screen out a girl who has social media, which gives him more options in 2016.

    You're probably not going to find a <25yo 8+/10 who doesn't have male orbiters in her life, so screening them out means just never settling or having kids, which is no good. And trying to make her abandon them will trigger a lot of interference from her friends and family whispering in her ear about how abusive you are. But if a guy can learn group theory and AMOG theory and learn to accept that there will always be guys chasing his hot wife and learn to reframe them as not a big deal so his subcomms are in check etc, combined with knocking her up in the NRE stage, that could all help neutralize that and mean that a guy doesn't HAVE to screen out girls who have orbiters, which gives him more options in 2016.

    Posting this before getting to the rest to again hopefully put off the flame war stuff lol

    This is the kind of thing I was hoping to get input on from everyone, including the old experienced guys. Nice and simple, just a discussion of the issues in 2016 and how to counter them, alternative plans and their pros/cons and how to counter those, etc

    on September 10th, 2016 at 4:26 pm
    Original Link

    @Trent Lane
    I’m still sick so I’m stuck inside tonight again๐Ÿ˜ฆ and will get to your other points on the strategy but got distracted by this bit lol

    “Yeah, this whole conversation has bugged me a lot too lol I also you think there is another (but connected) you get such an intense pushback.”

    Oh ya there’s a ton of little dynamics going on here that are interesting as fuck because I didn’t expect to see them here lol

    “You can feel that Blax, SJF etc are really RILED UP by your arguments, and that this emotion is stronger than the one you feel when you are just proven wrong in a logical argument.

    I think their reaction is so strong because in their times, being a husband was a HUGE part of someone’s identity, I think we can even say it’s at the CORE of someone’s life, more than probably anything else.

    Therefore you questioning mariage, is for them you putting into question a huge part of their life, that’s why you get such hostile reactions I think.”

    Right. That’s why I keep adding “in 2016” and trying to stress over and over not to take this stuff as us saying THEIR marriage is going to fail or that THEIR wives are going to divorce-rape them etc And as long as we keep the discussion surface-level, there’s no real hardcore pushback. But once we get into “why did YOU get married, and can you see how the reasons you had were 1) an illusion, you could have had those things without the legal contract, and/or 2) based on conditioning/feels, there’s no actual logic behind them”, it triggers hostile defense because it’s as if I’m saying “YOU are dumb and YOU were fooled and YOUR reasons are STUPID”.

    When really all I’m trying to do is show how close the belief that marriage is the right thing to do, is aligned with FI-conditioning. That’s why I keep going back to what actual tangible benefits are there? Because I know there aren’t any. The benefits, when you look at them close, come down to conditioning and feels.

    That doesn’t mean feels-based reasons are BAD, I’m not making a judgement call on it, Blax and his wife truly believed that before his signature was on that piece of paper they were in a different relationship with a different set of rules and after he moved his hand in a few looping motions with a pen in it, and that belief IN that different is part of what has helped them stay together and have a great marriage all this time…

    …BUT, that doesn’t change that objectively that was all just conditioning they received and, to someone not raised in that culture at that time, who wasn’t conditioned to FEEL like there’s more value on marriage VS just dating and that marriage comes with a new set of rules, that signature on the piece of paper doesn’t carry the same weight or influence.

    I’m not judging his reasons as BAD or STUPID. I’m just pointing out that they’re feels-based, based on the social conditioning at the time, which is different from the social conditioning now where it’s becoming almost COMMONPLACE to be married more than once and the complete lack of value or rules women attribute to marriage now. As walawala (I think) said: women to marriage is the big wedding party, not the actual hard work and change of rules that make a relationship work long-term.

    That’s why I say I don’t think Blax would even disagree with me, if he didn’t think I was saying something I’m not. Like if he read the above, he’s a pretty rational/objective guy when he’s chill and I think he could see “okay, ya, I guess that WAS conditioning…as long as you aren’t talking shit about my wife!!” lol

    These things are important because before we can really embrace new alternatives and troubleshoot them so that they avoid ending up like the free for all ghetto nightmare version of “alternatives”, we have to first accept that there’s a reason to even entertain a discussion like this.

    “It’s truly fascinating to me.”

    You and me both lol I’m glad I’m sick this weekend so I didn’t have to miss any of this, it’s been interesting as fuck to see from the last place I would expect to find it.

    “and to develop on that, imagine what getting a divorce does do a guy whose role as a husband (and all the obligations that come with it) is at the core of his identity.

    No wonder so many guys kill themselves in this situ. It’s not just the sudden lack of sex and companionship, but probably also that their whole reason for living is gone”

    Agreed. When I question marriage, I’m questioning a lot of guys’ purpose/identity, or implying that their identity was based on socially conditioned–not necessarily deception, but socially conditioned influences at least, VS objective logic.

    I think that’s probably part of why it’s hard for them to picture a stable loving 2-parent household raising a kid without a signature on a piece of paper and they revert to the doom & gloom scenarios, because ALL of that stuff is tied to the concept of legal marriage to them. SJF seems to be starting to separate legal marriage from “being together lovingly raising kids for a long period of time voluntarily”, which is great. But as soon as Sentient and Blaximus brought out the ghetto shooting videos I was like “okay there’s some serious disconnect going on here” lol

    @Anonymous Reader
    “PS: Nothing you’ve written changes the facts, even your graph supports the facts of what has been happening to marriage, and will continue to happen.”

    This is really what it comes down to. Even if the risks are 1% chance of divorce, that doesn’t change that none of that 100% of marriages needed to be legally contracted for the man to have the exact same life minus the noose.

    Like this isn’t about “you, personally you, are stupid and wrong”, it’s about “the data is showing what we’re saying”. But most of the responses to “what benefits does a man in 2016 get from a woman in 2016, in 2016 culture, by legally signing a marriage contract and promising monogamy, that he can’t get without doing those 2 things?” is either vague or just full out personal attacks on me about what a piece of shit ignorant child I am trying to discredit me and get me to shut up lol

    But I understand those personal attacks come because there’s no data/logic to use instead and what I’m suggesting is questioning massive core beliefs so it’s all good.

    “I see what you did there. You defined game there. I’m Hugely into game.”

    My bad, by “who aren’t in the game at all” I meant “who aren’t in the game of sticking their dicks inside <25yo 8+/10 pussy in 2016". That's not a judgement call, that's just objectively you aren't doing that, that's all. Again, not a judgement call and not devaluing your opinion, just saying that you don't have direct experience with LTRing a <25yo 8+/10. That's not a judgement call on your worth as a person, that's an objective statement that I don't think you would disagree with.

    "And anyone that settles for a girl not <25 or HB8+ is a settler. I do not advise ever to settle."

    I've never said that. But I do point out that we're hoping to get men to pop out babies with prime hot girls, which is my focus.

    "Nothing. Nothing at all. If you can accomplish that and eat your cake too."

    Agreed. That's why I'd like to discuss strategy on this and how to address the situation if the kids DO become aware of it, what are the best approaches to have that conversation (things we can take from the poly/open/etc communities (and even divorcees) who no doubt have had to deal with those "mommy and daddy love eachother even though our relationship isn't traditional" situations). And even then how much is a kid even going to question things when his friends are being raised by single moms, cheating couples, lesbians, etc and all their social conditioning on TV is about how normal non-traditional relationships are? "Normal" and the examples children are seeing in the media of "normal" has changed pretty significantly compared to the 50s.

    "Especially if she has a shit ton of value after you get done banging here and she raises those children great? (I know, I know that calls for a special unicorn and you being on your game 24/7, and we all know those girls don’t exist and as a man, that’s impossible.)"

    Why do you guys keep saying I'm saying it's impossible when I specifically say, every single time, that it's not impossible, it's just significantly more difficult/rare and not something 90% of men can rely on? And if you find that girl, great, settle with her, but you don't legally marry her, that's all. (and don't promise monogamy if you're young and haven't hit your prime SMV yet where you're going to have a lot of temptations, whether you choose to act on them or not, like Sentient banging strippers when he's out of town etc)

    "Say there is a unicorn out there in 1990 or in 2018 and you want to be with her."

    This is entirely possible, my argument is simply that there are less unicorns now than in your guys' day (unicorns being <25yo 8+/10 women in 2016 who respect the sanctity of marriage and don't use social media and all that).

    "If things progress nicely over 4 years (two years vetting and two years of committing). And you had a child in the 6th year and another one in the 8th year). And then you want to raise them to 21. You enjoy it and it works out."

    See that brings us to the strategy Trent Lane and I are discussing above, which I'd like your opinion on. What if instead of 6 years before you have kids, you vet her hard for two years and have the child in the NRE stage instead of waiting until you're almost at the 7-year itch?

    Have you discovered things at the 4 year point that were surprise dealbreakers to you compared to the 2 year point? Or could you have made an educated guess at the 2 year point about what you would probably know about her at the 4 year point?

    These are sincere questions.

    "What if I said for any reason (social conventions, her, her mom, her father, whatever) that if you didn’t marry her then: You get nothing, you lose, good day sir?"

    It would be her loss, ultimately. Just like it would be her loss if she wouldn't put out unless I bought her dinner, or if she wouldn't marry me unless I bought an expensive enough ring, or if she wouldn't live with me unless I stopped talking to my friends, etc

    In any other scenario we would advise the guy to not compromise his values and enter an arrangement out of scarcity. I would advice him instead to work on setting the frame (from the start) that love doesn't require a legal contract.

    I would have him pitch back to whoever's controlling the scenario: "what if we do everything related to a wedding, change our names, live together, raise kids together etc, but I simply don't sign that piece of paper and you just trust that if we break up, I'll be a fair and compassionate man if we break up and voluntarily make sure she's taken care of long enoough to get back on her feet"

    If he's still unable to have her, then, again, it's her loss. He has all his resources and the same charm charisma etc he had before, and all the time in the world to find another one and enjoy the search. She's the one with the baby timer. It would be unfortunate, but he did what he could since he has no way to predict that she'll stay as perfect as she was, forever, especially once she has no fear of losing him.

    "It’s fine to next her for safety, but my contention is that you do what you want to do with contingencies and proceed forward with what is necessary to fulfill your goals."

    You are free to do as you like, but I'll bet a lot of divorce-raped men wish that they hadn't taken such a lopsided risk.

    "I just defined a benefit, real or imagined, of signing a contract. In my world not yours."

    What? What benefit? Getting the girl? I mean, you better have a whole stable of perfect unicorns guaranteed to be perfect forever or you're gonna have a lot of cats running around the house in 10-15 years lol

    Plenty of women try to get guys to commit, invest, etc before they let the guy have them, and we handle that the same way every time: be your own mental point of origin, don't supplicate out of scarcity, etc.

    Here's a counter-hypothetical for you I just came up with lol This isn't me being an asshole, I'm legitimately curious how you would handle this situation based on your MPO values etc:

    Say the exact same scenario you proposed, I've been dating your daughter and you've vetted me as a quality dude for her (remember this is hypothetical lol) and I've vetted her as a prime unicorn I want to settle for my whole life with. You lay out the marriage deal to me and I go "Sir I understand your values etc and I will think deeply about what you've said to me" and you pat me on the back and trust that I'll come around.

    A couple weeks later your daughter comes to you and says "Daddy, I just found out I'm a month pregnant!" because we didn't use protection in a moment of passion (accident? maaaaybe lol).

    So now she's pregnant with my child. And I tell you I will absolutely take care of her forever, I love her dearly, I've already picked out the house for our family to raise our kids and grow old in, hell, I'll even promise monogamy because she's perfect enough that I won't ever be tempted by another girl, and I'll draw up legal contracts to make sure her and your soon-to-be grandson are taken care of financially if anything happens to me and we'll change our names and throw a wedding and you have walk her down the aisle and EVERYTHING.

    …buuuut I won't sign that legal paper. EVERYTHING ELSE, I'm totally down for, I just don't want the legal noose around my neck. And the baby is due in 8 months.

    What do you do?

    Remember it's a sincere question, not an attack on you or your daughter or anything. You asked me a scenario, so I'm asking you a twist on it, nothing malicious.

    "The fear of trends"

    There is no fear of trends here, just discussion of them and calculating odds, just like there's no fear of getting bad cards in a poker game when you discuss poker strategy, there's just "pocket Aces has better odds pre-flop than 2/7o"

    on September 10th, 2016 at 4:51 pm
    Original Link

    @SJF @kfg
    “For people looking to help the 90% of men who haul block, “class up” is ceasing to be a valid strategy.”

    This. Like it’s great if you were born into the perfect culture for this, that’s awesome, I hope it works out for you. But the rest of men out there aren’t and need solutions. You don’t HAVE to care about them because they’re beneath you, but I don’t think disregarding them as not worth caring about is a very “virtuous” way to view your fellow man in general.

    “Honest questions, I have never raised a kid, so I’m asking for the input of you guys. I’m interested in trying to find ways to raise a child properly in an oLTR”

    But ya, I’d like to know these things too. And to add to them:

    What is the difference to you between you staying at work late, or going out with friends for the night, or going on a camping trip, or going away on a business trip for the night, and Sentient banging a stripper when he’s on business?

    Like in all those scenarios, the kid only knows what you tell him, if you tell him anything at all beyond “Daddy will be home late tonight”. And even then, you could squeeze banging an FB into your noon hour at work or at a point in the day when your kid and wife aren’t around. Or maybe you keep it purely to when you’re away on business, etc

    As long as you come home and love your wife and she loves you, what effect do you see Sentient fooling around on a business trip having on a kid that you going away for business and spending the night in your hotel room alone wouldn’t also have?

    Again not an attack, just an honest objective question, so we can think about where/how to fit in other girls without disrupting family life or the child’s development.

    (fuck we need a lot of trigger warnings just to ask simple questions around here lol)

    @Anonymous Reader
    “So if the US slowly slides down into a “favelas as far as you can see, with a handful of gated and guarded communties in the middle” like Brazli, you’d be down with that? That’d be ok with you? You don’t mind a vanishing middle class, as long as you can say “I Got Mine, Jack, Sucks To Be You” to your neighbors?”

    This. Like, those ghetto gone wild vids are scary as fuck. But we may be headed toward that en masse without some kind of strategy/structure/system for men. We have one right now but it’s massively flawed and comes with insane levels of risk and punishment for no discernable reward that can’t be gotten through other means.

    There’s a point where it’s going to affect the UMC, if not the people within it themselves, but the society they live in.

    “That is very objectively debatable. My wife still has very high SMV and is very attractive by any measure, age or otherwise. That is totally irrelevant to any other guy out there. It shouldn’t matter to any one else.”

    Trent how do I respond to this without sound like an asshole?? lol It’s not irrelevant to the discussion. Her being in her 50s(?) and presumably unable to have kids now (? can’t remember how old she is lol) changes dynamics compared to her being 21 and in her prime fertility window. That’s just, how can you be red pill and debate that? lol

    “Red Pill awareness is not strategy for the modern man.”


    “You are describing what AFC’s and blue pill men conditioned by the FI would do.”

    Lots of red pill guys still fall for that stuff. Tons.

    “But I think it is laughable to think that the premise is that this means bargaining (it doesn’t) from a place of scarcity a priori *. No. Not the exact same thing”

    In what way is “you can’t have me unless you legally sign this massively risky contract” not the same as “you can’t have this thiing you want unless you do this thing that comes with potential downsides for you” and how is agreeing to that not bargaining from a place of scarcity to you? If you had abundance you could say “no thanks” and find something with less risk.

    “You can have whatever values you want, but if a man wants to master the challenges of women, work and sexual desires, then he should look to those men who actually have experiences, have been in the trenches and have succeeded.”

    Unfortunately we don’t have men in the trenches in 2016 who have succeeded with girls raised in this 2016 culture, for more than a couple years at least. But we have plenty of men dead in the trenches who failed at it. An unimaginable number of men dead in the trenches.

    “I’m not religious, but it is an observation that is backed up by populations surveys. Last time I checked the marriage and non-divorced percentage is high. Very high. And it is very observable all around me.”

    Any private surveys of the happiness levels of the husbands and the weight of the wives and frequency of sex etc to go with it? lol

    “Does this mean do not marry unless you are UMC? Perhaps, because the odds are against you.”

    I mean, that’s been my point since the start lol For the vast majority of men, the odds are against them in a legal marriage. Like I say, I don’t think you guys would even disagree with me if you could focus on these not being personal attacks about YOUR marriage but just objective observations about marriage in 2016.

    @SJF @Klem
    “Other question : if you can pull that off, at around what age would you consider telling him/her about your open arrangement with their mum?

    Stupidest question ever. Re-read the rules of fight club.”

    lol now THIS we can agree on. Don’t pro-actively bring it up, keep it discreet and on the side and focus on being a good dad and family man. Save it for business trips etc like Sentient and the kid will probably never know until he’s an adult and old enough to understand it.

    BUT, if it DOES come up, like something happens (your wife mentioning it), it’s worth discussing how to approach that conversation. Again we could look to the poly/open/swinger/divorced/etc communities for how to help a child understand that mommy and daddy can still love eachother and love them even if daddy has a playfriend, just like you (the child) loves daddy but that doesn’t mean you don’t love mommy, etc etc Could probably script this stuff up into some solid routines.

    on September 10th, 2016 at 5:17 pm
    Original Link

    @Trent Lane
    Once again, thanks for answering so we can have an actual discussion on strategy.

    “– Suggestion: After initially getting your partner pregnant early, ideally keeping her pregnant again during critical phases of the LTR aka the seven year itch.”

    Right, if you could screen/vett in 2 years and make enough of an educated guess to knock her up while she’s still in the NRE stage (and is more likely to be open to putting her career on hold etc than when she’s out of the NRE stage or bored around the 7 year mark which is what a lot of couples try these days (like SJF said kids in year 6)). Pregnancy to preschool/kindergarten is probably 5 years-ish. So you’d be at about the 7 year itch mark when that kid is going off to school…bang her raw during the preschool years and knock her up so that she passes the 7 year mark pregnant.

    If she was say 23 when you met her (because <23yo girls are often still retarded lol but 23 they're often starting to feel "too old" for the bar scene etc, and aren't massively invested in their careers yet like a 27yo), 2 years vetting and she's pregnant around 25. Seems like perfect timing. Throw 4-5 years on there to get the first kid off to school and knock her up so she's pregnant around the 29-30 year mark right when, NORMALLY, she would be bored because she doesn't have kids yet and be flirting on social media etc, instead because she's preggers she's got other shit to worry about all day. Tack on 4-5 years to get that kid off to school and now she's 34-35, hitting the wall, noticing attention start to slow up slightly (she doesn't get carded buying liquor etc lol). And the first kid is about to enter his crazy teen years where she'll have tons of drama to deal with to keep her busy and/or she can work from home or rejoin the workforce but now as a wall-aged woman VS being the plucky young 23yo secretary working around Mad Men flirting with her that she was when you met her.

    SJF, Sentient, Blaximus, etc: sincerely what do you think of a plan like that, based on your experience with how women do/don't change during preganancy and during the initial child-rearing years and any dynamics that shift, etc. Where do you see flaws in that overall structure?

    "Con: This whole constellation inherently relies on the male being the main if not sole breadwinner, which means you’d have to get your finances in check from the start, even more so if you want multiple kids, plural."

    Agreed. We can assume by default that she's not going to be starting a business from home when she's preggers lol She might but low odds to rely on that. So a guy would absolutely have to be prepared to finance all of this, and have a realistic perspective of how much it DOES cost to raise a kid (I've run into red pill guys in the communities who ARE rich and are like "ya, I can afford a kid so it's no big deal" because they've looked at the costs and have significantly more than enough to cover it).

    "This conflicts somewhat with the hyperfocus on game you’d need early in life to realistically develop the screening skills you’d need to be able to select the woman who’s the right partner for you and the mother of your children, yes/no?"

    A very good point, and why I'm bringing the discussion up. But remember: we're shooting for <25yo 8+/10 WOMEN…but that doesn't mean we need the men to be the same age. The May-December relationships are a pretty natural thing anyway ('cause the older man has a stronger frame and provisioning etc than her peers).

    I picture something like this:

    A guy works on pickup/game from in his college years where he's surrounded with social opportunities and would be going out and partying a bunch and living in dorms and shit ANYWAY, and a lot of guys take a year before they go off to college to go travel etc. So he could hyperfocus on game for a year or two somewhere in the 20-25 years. From 25+ he can focus on career stuff. A lot of people work jobs that don't end up being or having any relevance to their career right out of college anyway so he's only really a year or two behind everyone else on that front, but his social skills (and ability to network to FIND job opportunities) and sex life is light-years ahead of the average guy.

    He enjoys the single life and learns to screen as he works on his career until he's say, mid-30s. By then he's met some crazy bitches, he's met some cool chicks, he's learned what he likes, probably had some LTRs of various lengths etc and he's been able to work on his career because he hyperfocused back in his early 20s on learning game.

    Around 35 he's still not old enough to where he has to put much work into getting <25yo 8+/10 girls…if he takes care of his looks/health he'll probably LOOK 27-ish to most girls anyway. So he should have no problem attracting a girl in that prime category. He's got his career handled solid, is financially stable, he's got a lot of experience with vetting women, and he has the strategy in mind to find and vet a young hottie, knock her up in the NRE stage, and execute the plan described above.

    So they met when she was 23 and he was 35. By the time she's 35 and hitting the wall, he's only 47. Mid/late 40s isn't old at ALL these days. Tons of spry guys running around at that age, if they take care of themselves etc. Like I say, Duchoveny and Cullum were in their late 40s on Californication and they looked fully capable of running around with their kids and keeping their wife satified in bed etc

    So how about that overall plan for a guy? What if every guy was equipped with a guideline like this (say the logistics of making that happen were actually figured out and guys would listen lol)?

    Do any parts of this plan seem unrealistic/crazy? What pros/cons do you see to it? It seems fairly solid to me, but the point is to put it through questioning to see what's missing or needs addressing.

    on September 10th, 2016 at 5:45 pm
    Original Link

    @Trent Lane
    Just to stress again: thank-you for answering and participating in the dicussion, this is all I was looking for when I first proposed the questions. I didn’t want that big sidetrack lol I thought we’d be discussing stuff like this in the first few replies.

    “– Suggestion: You may have to accept that she will/have to stray some time past the NRE stage to realize other dudes are dull shit compared to you and come back.”

    Right…we know Hypergamy needs to choose the highest-value option and we know they’re being bombarded with options (that from afar LOOK like good options), and we know that women test a man’s value by interacting with him and seeing him in action and how he acts/reacts to the world and vice versa (basic pickup 101 there), and that in profiles and shit guys are able to hide their flaws and put on a show to fool their Hypergamy into thinking they might be a good option, especially if they flat out lie and promise her the world when they have no intention of doing so.

    Also a girl who’s bored out of her mind waiting 6+ years to have kids with you, 4-5 years out of the NRE stage, working in offices with high-value guys and going on girls’ nights out etc, is more likely to be more work to deal with orbiters/social-media/etc-wise than a girl you knock up in year 2 who’s kept busy with kids for the next 10 years.

    “Pro: If you know this and can live with this you can take preperations and probably manage it pretty safely, yes/no?”

    Right, there’s a lot of outer AND inner game stuff you can do to deal with these things. From internal stuff like learning not to view them as actual threats and not reacting (understanding the whoever reacts 0.0001% more has lower value dynamic) and understanding that her hindbrain isn’t going to give up this world of options and her friends/family will poison the LTR if you force her to, and understanding that what you feel she feels and the more you believe you’re the best option for her (even if you acknowledge that she has other options), the more likely you are to stay triggering her Hypergamy…

    And external stuff like actual AMOG tactics and tooling the guys and framing them as being chodes with crushes on her, or even more severe ones like purposely dumping her for a few months a few years after your first kid is born, so that she HAS to go find out other guys are lame and find out how hard life is without you as she tries to figure out how to take care of herself and the baby etc, and then get back with her.

    The kid would be too young to remember anything happened, and she’s so grateful to have you that you extend the NRE AND, now that I think about it, BOTH of you would have incentive to rawdog it and get her preggers again…she would want to get pregnant to make SURE you stick around (because when you got back together you tell her “sorry I panicked about being a dad it was really scary and I didn’t know if I was ready for it but then I realized I love our kid and I could never leave him and I missed you and I just freaked out and I’m sorry but I want to be with you”, so she knows “ok he can’t leave his kids so lets have more kids”), and YOU would want her to get pregnant so that you’re covered till she hits the wall.

    Genius lol Anyone see problems with that? Aside from being all sorts of sociopathic (like everything red pill according to feminists lol) Old man crew? Any critiques?

    “Con: You’d have to be on top of your game, stay sharp and keep gaming, have options yourself on the side aka passive or active dread.”

    Right, so if you don’t put legal marriage onto the table and don’t promise monogamy, you’re more likely to stay charismatic an social and awesome and maintain your social circles that have girls in them and have options for if she DOES stray, and all these things help maintain passive dread and/or keep your value up naturally by default, with no real risk to you.

    “You might realize that you cannot live with anotherdude sticking his P in your partners V, which, as evidence suggest, is experienced much different by different men and not something we can realistically predict for a majority, yes/no?”

    Right. This is up to every individual guy and even then it’s up to every individual transgression. Maybe she goes on a date and kisses some other guy and that doesn’t bother Joe but Bob is disgusted by her…maybe she fucks a couple Tinder guys because she’s lonely and in a vulnerable place and they said the right things but they just made her miss you and the life she had with you, and Billy is like fuck THAT shit while John is like “well, I never want to speak of this shit again and you have to take a dozen showers, but at least you learned your lesson that other guys suck and we’re back in the NRE stage again” and takes her back.

    In the event that the guy won’t take her back:

    1) know himself by then well enough to know if he can’t handle it and just do the rest of the strategy instead but leave this part out of it and stick to the usual ways of handling orbiters and keeping her knocked up past the wall

    2) it’s ultimately his own baggage and for the sake of the kids he should try to work past it (ideally a life of doing pickup and dealing with fuckbuddies that have fuckbois and shit makes him less freaked out by the thought of a girl hooking up with another guy while they’re on a break), especially since she’s probably learned her lesson…like giving someone a small controlled dose of a disease so they’re immune to the worse version of it later

    3) he could use guilt etc like “look I just need some time to figure this out…but I won’t be seeing anyone (whether that’s true or not lol) and I get that you’ll want to date but if you slept with someone I just don’t know if I could ever get past that” etc to at least plant the idea in her head so that she either feels too guilty to fully sleep with someone else or does and just pretends she didn’t which might be good enough for the guy lol

    4) if he thought he could handle it and then finds out he just absolutely cannot get past it once it happens, or she somehow lands the perfect guy (which even then, give it a few months and he’ll probably end up choding himself out as soon as the NRE wears off and she’ll probably come back, just like LSNFTEs often do), he should be prepared for a custody battle. And in preparing for it he should be collecting evidence from day 1 of her being pregnant that he’s the better parent. It’s a little sneaky but when a woman has to win a custody battle she’ll be pressured by her lawyer friends family etc to make you look like the worse parent to get the kids, and often guys don’t realize that stuff like not going to PTA meetings and knowing the kid’s doctor appointment schedules etc will tank them in a custody battle. So we’d want a list of things that guy should be doing from day 1 for the worst-case scenario of a custody battle because the kid will be infinitely better with him AND it gives more incentive for her to come back and try to smooth things over etc

    Any flaws here? Pros/cons in the logic anyone? Other bases/scenarios to cover? This one is the trickiest because scenario 4 is where the kid will actually suffer. But in scenarios 1 2 and 3, there should be no harm to the kid.

    on September 10th, 2016 at 5:57 pm
    Original Link

    “I also know that a vast majority of men love harder, deeper and longer ( on average ) than most women do. Yes, I said ” love “. real men do ” love “. Whether or not that is a positive thing is debatable, but the fact of it is not.”

    Absolutely. Like Rollo’s written, men are the true romantics. Women by default love conditionally (again as Rollo has writtena bout)…and in 2016 all of society is devaluing what marriage means compared to what it meant to you (and may still mean in the UMC circles).

    We need new options for guys because they’re entering a situation where THEY love unconditionally, while women love conditionially, except all of the risk is on the men that they’ll never fail those conditions while all of society encourages her to not care about her end of the bargain.

    It’s just not looking like a wise deal anymore. The love and change of rules (from dating to “cut the bullshit out”) that marriage used to come with doesn’t come anymore, at least on the 2016 woman’s side. It’s become so devalued now…it’s just another checkmark box to tick off as she tries to have it all and is focused more on the wedding party cake design than paying attention to the man she’s swearing vows to (vow that don’t mean anything to her anymore except they sound really cool and romantic in the video she posted on Facebook that got 50 Likes).

    “So if you see me type ” YaReally, you go fuck yourself!!!”, I mean for a short time. I don’t want him to go fuck himself forever. That shit would be tragic.”


    jk you don’t have to eat shit. โค

    Still sick but going to go try to nap it off so I don't have to think about all the fun people are having out at the bars tonight lol would like to see some feedback on the strategy ideas Trent Lane and I are talking about, even from the crotchety old men (lol).

    I think there are solutions to this situation, it's not an impossible one at all. We have the combined intellect and experience and understanding of attraction (long-term and short-term) to come up with at least a framework for the 90% of men who aren't boring into SJF's clique.

    'cause no one wants a broken society and we all want to see kids raised in loving 2-parent households and men being able to see and raise their kids etc

    on September 11th, 2016 at 2:21 pm
    Original Link

    Fucking lol

    So Blaximus and SJF didn’t promise monogamy, and their relationships have worked out.

    Scribblerg is posting stats (from a book that analyzes up to 2010 lol, Tinder didn’t even launch till 2012, why do you keep using such bad/irrelevant data to make your arguments) that back up that men who aren’t in that little UMC/religious community lifestyle (aka 90% of men, the average dude that I’ve been using in all my examples (Joe the Plumber etc) of who we’re trying to help) shouldn’t get married

    And everything else is being categorized into unicorn madonna/whore intelligent/BPD girls because NAWALT now and men who aren’t UMC aren’t worth anyone’s time, in general, fuck em for not being born into wealth or with good male influences to teach them or not working hard enough in a system the FI brainwashes them into not even realizing is stacked against them.

    The reason this stuff is important is because Rollo has been writing this blog for 5 years. And it’s helped a shitload of men. And that’s awesome, it’s a fucking fantastic resource. But what are we helping them FOR, in the long-run?

    Right now they come out of a brutal divorce, deadbedroom, shitty traditional monoLTR with a BPD whatever, and they’re bleeding from every limb and find a place like this. We bandage them up and get them out of depression/suicide and back into the dating scene. We even give them the tools to do well in that dating scene.

    But then what? “Okay thanks for the help guys, you saved my life…now I DO still want to have kids one day, ’cause I didn’t even get kids out of that nightmare relationship I was in or I have one that I’m not even allowed to see and I’ve met this girl and she’s pretty cool and I’d like to have another kid. How can I go about doing that?”

    “Well Bob, you know that lop-sided arrangement you entered before that you realized was completely stacked against you when you were in divorce court trying to get your alimony payments lowered while the judge laughed at you, the arrangement that you got COMPLETELY fucked over in and are STILL feeling reprocussions from as you work two jobs to pay your ex to fuck her new Chad boyfriend, the arrangement that put you on the brink of suicide, the arrangement that financially ruined you to the point where you’re no longer one of the Golden UMC crowd that Scribblerg and SJF say you should be for your happiness to matter and even Scribblerg’s statistics show you have to be to make that system work?”


    “Well the only plan we have for you is to jump right back into that rigged system! But don’t worry, this time you have a little bit more red pill knowledge than before…THIS time you might beat the odds! Here’s another ball kid, you’ll knock the carnival bottles over and win the…well, not a big teddy bear, really no one can name what you’re winning that you couldn’t just get without throwing these balls and risking everything…but don’t think about that, THIS time for SURE you’re going to knock the bottles over! Maybe. I mean, statistically and anecdotally probably not (as Scribblerg has admitted his stats show, since you’re not a Golden UMC Child)…but, you know, if you want to have kids that’s how you gotta do it!”

    “…isn’t there any alternative?”

    “Well okay, we have one OTHER path for you: Just be single forever and never reproduce. Be Roosh and Krauser at 40 with no kids playing the field forever.”

    “…well that’s not too appealing, I didn’t get into the game because I WANTED to be a player for life, I got into it because I got obliterated in a devastating divorce and this is just what I HAVE to do to get a new potential baby mama and a loving 2-parent household to raise kids in.”

    “Dunno what to tell ya kiddo! Those are your options.”

    Now wouldn’t it be nice if we could offer them a plan that allows them the same benefit of having kids, but minus the legal contract and promised restriction on their sexuality?

    “You do not have to have sex with other girls to have an abundance mentality or induce some dread in the wife… you just have to demonstrate that you can/do get IOI’s, you know you get IOI’s and you know she knows you get IOIs… so that and periodically taking some space from her, going out occasionally with just your buddies even, to a place she knows other women will or might be, is enough.”

    Agreed. But when your wife, who you’ve legally given the ability to destroy your life, says “I don’t like you going out so much”, you have significantly more risk saying “I’m doing it anyway”. Risk for no discernable reward that anyone has come up with.

    “Like I said in the last post welcome Back to the Future. You are reinventing Marriage 1.0.”

    How many orbiters do you think that chick in the photo had and what do you think her culture taught her about marriage and relationships, Eat Pray Love, and Having It All, and how do you think the men/masculinity/man-of-the-house were viewed back then?

    “Pro tip – make a hot meal when you come in an expectation…”

    How many <25yo 8+/10s in 2016 have you done the expected hot meal when you come in thing with (your daughter doesn't count)?

    @Anonymous Reader @Trent Lane
    "Finally we get somewhere."

    I thought so till I read the last posts from the old guys lol But thanks to you and Trent for the realistic discussion at least.

    "But this is classic stuff, I’ve known more than one girl who would diet herself down 20 pounds to attract a man and then put it back on over the first 6 months of being in an LTR, just to pick an example."

    Right, by default you don't really know the girl the first few months, you're seeing her AAA+++ behavior. But once she feels like you're hooked, the slacking off starts. I know a lot of guys who've tried to get their GFs/wives to eat healthy and exercise, but the girls didn't eat healthy or exercise when they met them, they were just naturally skinny and had young people metabolisms, so why, when they approach 30 and their metabolism is slowing down etc, would they suddenly take it up, when they're 5 years into an LTR with a guy who's moved in and isn't likely going anywhere and both have been socially conditioned by the FI to believe that complaining about her weight is abusive behavior?

    VS screening for gym bunnies, which you can find out about a girl pretty quickly, the first month even. Which is part of my point…how can we get guys to screen faster? Even teaching them to not consider any girl who doesn't have good gym/diet habits in that first 3 months would save guys a ton of time (theoretically on a long enough timeline it would also encourage women to develop those things when they see that the friends locking a high-value man down are the ones who do that stuff lol). Plus if she has those habits, she'll be a better influence on kids.

    So right there is something we can use: check her diet/gym habits right away…if she has none or a bad attitude with it, just rule her out entirely as long-term material, keep her as an FB or no-kids LTR.

    Right now the old guys will go "DUHHH JUST READ A BOOK FROM THE 1200s!!" but how many guys in this FI-conditioned culture are settling down long-term with girls who don't even pass this basic test and feel guilty for even bringing it up with them or trying to fix it etc.

    Like I get that the badass alpha red pill ideal men will just instantly smack her down and be like "bitch hit the gym or GTFO", because they are all super alphas from birth. But what I'm ACTUALLY seeing out in the field, are a shitload of guys settling into multiple-year LTRs with girls that are giving off all sorts of red flags like this and just blindly hoping that "love conquers all" and will somehow change them, or hoping that the girl will just suddenly decide to develop these habits.

    Men aren't being taught this stuff and are thirsty/in scarcity too much to actually screen for it. Like look at Softek…that's NOT a relationship he should be in long-term and have kids in. We ALL know it, even Softek probably knows it. But there he is, in that relationship still. If he hadn't come here and gotten chewed out, WOULD he know it wasn't a relationship he should stay in and have kids in? Even knowing it's not going to lead anywhere good, with all sorts of red flags, he's still wasted like a year+ in it that he could've been out learning game and meeting other girls.

    "Don’t wait for that to happen. Push her into it. If I was in this situ now I’d deliberately work her into a fighting situation just to see how far her temper goes, if she has a mean streak, etc. If that blows things up, meh, it’s cheaper early on than later."

    This is a great idea. I had a buddy who was in a 7 year monoLTR that blew up at the end when he basically put her in a spot where she had to sacrifice for the relationship and suddenly a ton of shitty behavior came out. If you boil their entire relationship down, up till that point by sheer fluke everything had just always worked out for them in a way where she wasn't having to sacrifice anything (like they moved in together in her city, she was able to follow her career, etc, their relationship was always adapting to her basically).

    But when it came time for her to sacrifice to be with him (quit her job, move away from her family, etc to follow him for work), she brought out behavior that he had no idea she was capable of and thought only "dumb drunk bar drama sluts do" (he used to constantly brag about having found a unicorn lol 'cause he had never really SEEN the other side of her). He was mindblown, he was with her for 7 years and had never seen this kind of behavior (picking fights (trying to get him to flip out so she could justify breaking up with him as him being abusive), throwing frustrated tantrums, crying, trying to manipulate/guilt/shame him, rewriting history in her favor (she was always a saint who always sacrificed for him according to her), etc ending with a full ice-cold 180 War Brides shutdown of all feelings for him which he said was the scariest part, how she was able to just rationalize away all feelings (as a necessary War Brides thing, since their breakup was looking inevitable she had to nuke her feelings so she can move on)).

    I told him that she was always CAPABLE of that behavior, AWALT and everything. He had just never put her in a position where things weren't going her way and she would have to make a significant sacrifice for the relationship. She wasn't BPD crazy or anything, she was super chill as fuck that was why he liked her. But he had never really pushed her.

    So ya, maybe purposely picking a few fights early on is a good idea. A good fight to pick would be getting caught with another girl…since you didn't promise monogamy, you're not really in the wrong per say, but you can see if she just gets sad or if she flips her shit and tries to get "even" lol Do that in year 1 instead of at the 7-year-itch when some girl at your office is flirting with you.

    "What about no engagement ring? Or some cheap piece of stage jewelry? Provider game is giving her all that stuff. Meh. Bag of Skittles instead."

    lol ya that's up to the individual guy. I'm just including the engagement/wedding stuff for the guys who think you can't have a stable loving 2-parent household without that stuff. Do everything you would for a wedding minus the legal contract that puts a noose around your neck. Even if you buy her a million dollar ring and throw the fanciest ball in all the land for the wedding, as long as you don't sign that legal contract it doesn't matter, do whatever you want here. My point is more that the engagement ring on her finger is one of the key points where she feels "I have him more than I did before" and is more likely to let out bad behavior or slack off on good behavior, especially as you watch her planning the wedding party etc

    But you would have to let her know (ideally you're setting the frame from day 1) that you won't be signing the legal contract.

    "The hormones are real deal, although girls always will use them for an excuse."

    I had a girl try to convince me periods don't make girls crazy once. I was like well then a shitload of girls are just inherently shitty people using it as an excuse to be shitty lol

    "Just because her baby box is out of commission for a while due to wear & tear, doesn’t mean other parts of her aren’t fully functional."

    Right, a guy can probably help set this frame early on by not letting her off during her periods and making minor excuses to not fuck that night, which is how deadbedrooms start. Guys should be made aware how important it is to lay down the frame of "if your vag is out of order, my dick isn't so get to it" (lol) during those first attempts to "get out" of sex. And if there's too much resistance then they should extrapolate that when she has a kid she's probably going to turn the sex faucet off because she'll have the PERFECT totally 100% justifiable-by-all-of-society-these-days excuse to never put out again ("oh I don't feel sexy" "oh I don't like my body" "oh my body has been through so much I just need some time") etc as she slacks in other areas.

    I've met a lot of dudes in LTRs with girls who don't have good eating/gym habits and who have turned them down for sex…what do they THINK is going to happen when she has a kid? They're going to come here surprised that they're in a deadbedroom with a fat wife and it's like bro all the signs were there, someone should've warned you and taught you how to hold frame and screen her faster so you weren't 5 years in and too invested to leave when you figured it out.

    "Yeah and there’s a known itch when the youngest child hits age 3 to 4 when the urge to monkey branch will come up, with more testing popping up."

    Right, that's probably the stage where pulling a breakup takeaway would be optimal…she's getting the urge to monkey branch (or at least she's needing validation after having a kid that she's still "got it" etc). Instead of trying to keep her away from other guys which just increases their Forbidden Fruit value, do the opposite and fake a freakout about being a dad and FORCE her into experiencing life without you for a few months. Instead of waiting for her to vett branches and go Eat Pray Love on her own with guys she may have screened as good candidates, toss her out at the first hint so that she hasn't been able to screen candidates and realizes "shit these are the guys I would probably be stuck with if I didn't stay with him, how do I get him back??"

    "Interesting set of observations, want to see more men chiming in."

    Like I say, this is all I was asking for from the start. Didn't realize everyone would shit their pants. Maybe I was wrong about the old men being able to contribute their old man life experience wisdom to the discussion and the TRP forums are a better place for this discussion 'cause the old men don't seem to give a shit and the TRP'ers are at least infield actually dealing with this stuff and trying to make long-term relationships happen with these girls. I'm just really surprised how little some people seem to care about other men.

    @Trent Lane
    "This does NOT mean she’s fat/ugly and you pick her out of scarcity because you want children bad and have nowhere else to go, it means that the hunt for the physical hottest woman and the one who might be the best mother to your children can be the same one, but need not be so and in reality in all likelihood is probably not gonna be the same."

    Right, and the best option for finding this efficiently is running harems, not spending your 20s in a monoLTR or jumping from monoLTR to monoLTR (with <25yo 8+/10 girls who don't even want monoLTRs half the time in 2016). Which goes back to learning game skills as early as possible to normalize the harem concept with youn gmen so that they have the most selection to choose from. Like if I do decide to settle down at some point, it'll be with whichever the best girl of the girls I'm seeing is, nice and simple.

    With hotness just being a given (in that obviously we want guys getting hot girls), eating/gym habits are probably the next fastest things to screen for. You'll see what her habits are in those areas inโค months. Probably in the first month or two. So within 2 months you can have screened her out as not long-term LTR with kids material because odds are she's going to let herself go after you have kids and can't leave easily, you're not going to teach her to eat and hit the gym when all of society is telling her to love her fat body and you're abusive for wanting her to stay hot and if you can't handle her at her worst you don't deserve her at her best and social media orbiters promising her the world to get their dick wet etc etc

    Literally any girl without solid eating/gym habits gets FB-only status.

    Again to the old guys this will just be common sense duhhh, obviously, but AGAIN we're talking about reality VS theory. In REALITY how many guys TRY to make a girl like that an FB-only, but then she wins them over with her other qualities and they go "welllllll I like her a lot" (and they've limited their options by agreeing to monogamy so they're partly in scarcity) and just avoid thinking about it, or convince themselves "it's not that bad at least she's skinny and hot" (sure, she is NOW…lol), or "maybe if she starts to put on pounds I can take her to the gym with me" etc.

    SO many guys think they're going to take a girl with shitty habits, then put themselves in a position where they can't leave (have kids), and then have that girl develop GOOD habits, when they were shitty even when he COULD leave. Basic incentive/reward shit right there…so screen her out quickly and don't waste your time investing 4 years with her, there are plenty of women, keep her as a fuckbuddy and who knows maybe she'll start developing those habits of her own accord or if you tell her to, but don't plan a future/kids or legally tie yourself to her.

    "But physical beauty will change/fade through childbirth and long time perspective, so while not to be dismissed out of scarcity, it should come secondary if you screen for the mother of your future kids."

    Right. I would put the eating/gym habits over the default hotness really. A hot girl who's just blessed with being thin in her youth but is eating garbage food and doesn't hit the gym is more likely to balloon up when she has less fear of losing you and her metabolism etc changes. If you can find a hot girl who eats well and is a gym bunny, cool, that's actually not even that uncommon a combo to find these days (despite what the Euro guys think about all the women over here being 300lbs lol)

    And if she's not a 10 but she has good eating/health habits, and you're cool with her looks, then let her pass stage 1 of the speed-screening process. In under 3 months you'll have a good idea of what your odds of ending up in a dead bedroom or with a fatty after you're locked in from having a kid, will be. VS right now where guys will give zero fucks about a girl's habits and/or rationalize them away and/or just hope they change because they want so bad for it to work (because they're in scarcity because they don't have a harem etc).

    The reason to bring this stuff up is that I don't think you need 4 years to figure out that the girl you like, even though she's 90% perfect, is highly likely to balloon up to be a whale after childbirth. I think we can get guys to screen a lot faster than they currently do…but it would require laying out "these are the important qualities, because these are what they lead to"

    Even a cause/effect chart for guys…like "if you spot this flag, then this outcome is what it's likely to lead to after you're fully locked in with a kid and can't leave" where they can say "okay this and this outcome aren't dealbreakers to me, but this one here is very important to me so I'll look and pro-actively test for these flags early on to save myself time, so I can knock her up during the NRE stage if she passes these flag tests"

    So on a chart like that something like "if she has active social media accounts with a bunch of followers, the outcome of that when you're locked in is she might need to go find out that those guys are losers so you may have to pull the Breakup Takeaway strategy at around the point where your first kid is on his way to entering preschool and that'll happen because she needs validation that she's still sexy, she's closer to 30 and wants to make sure she isn't missing out, etc etc, and here are tactics to deal with those things".

    Now Bob might go "fuck THAT drama, I'll screen for girls who barely use social media even though that means I'll have way less options"

    But Joe might go "okay well that's not that big a deal then, I can handle orbiters and shit and if I have to do the Breakup Takeaway strategy so she appreciates me over the other guys I'm willing to do that" and now Joe has a wider selection of girls and a solid awareness of what problems he's likely to encounter down the road and a solid plan for neutralizing/handling/preventing that situation (besides "just be alpha bro").

    Again a lot of this will be Common Sense(TM) to the old guys, but looking at the world around us out there, guys are pretty much NOT screening at ALL. And the FI is shaming them FOR screening. Red Pill guys are learning to screen, but it's still a long slow process, or they get TOO jumpy and screen EVERYTHING out (like the old man advice of screen out any girl with social media).

    The point of this is that something like a guide/chart/etc pointing out that "look if you see this behavior from her (and here's how to pro-actively test for that behavior early on), it's likely to lead to this, and here are the ways to handle that, decide for yourself if you want to screen for this or if you think you can handle it" would be useful as fuck.

    That's why I THOUGHT the old guys would want to contribute their life experience wisdom and all. Like Blax could say "you know with my first wife there were some red flags actually" and Scribblerg could go "ya, in MY LTR looking back I realize there was that same flag, maybe we should explore that for consistently negative outcomes and come up with ways to work around it" etc

    "Chemistry = ability to relax together, share humor (!), general values – shittests, while to be expected, celebrated and plowed through have to generally stay under what you regard as too annoying and too much a pain in the ass."

    Maybe see how well they do without technology. Take them camping early on or just set a rule of no phones etc when you're together. Can they entertain themselves? Do they sit there and expect YOU to entertain THEM and complain they're bored without making an effort? 'cause what's that going to extrapolate to after you're locked in with a kid and out of the NRE stage? Are you going to have to babysit the kid AND her to keep her from getting bored and bailing on the relationship? If she can entertain herself positively, cool, you can probably focus on your own shit. If she sits there incapable of it and expecting you to make things fun for her, well, you're signing up for TWO kids not one.

    Again common sense, but how many guys actually screen for this and actually get WHY it would be important to screen for and what outcome it's likely to have down the road?

    "Compared to say some hot but crazy FB who you’d might think, god, this is retarded but the sex is worth it lol"

    Right. The problem we have now is this 90% of guys are running into stuff like a hot but crazy FB and they're too in scarcity (because they haven't learned to run harems in their 20s and shit and are trying monoLTRs before they have any real experience with women because that's what the FI has conditioned them to think relationships have to be) so instead of screening her out they just stay in the relationship and hope it all works out, not really paying attention to anything and/or hoping shit changes. Again we can refer to Softek's situation as an example of this.

    If guys were encouraged to NOT do monoLTRs in their 20s, and instead to run harems etc so they can learn more about women and reach their 30s where their SMV is much higher and they have a better selection of women etc, and given a guide of "if you notice this behavior, it's likely going to lead to this outcome after you're locked in with a kid, and here are ways to prevent/fix that but it's up to you to decide if you want to deal with that or screen her out" they would have more of a vision of what long-term with that girl would probably look like.

    Right NOW they don't know what it'll look like. They're being conditioned to think every girl is capable of becoming a unicorn because LOOOOVE. Which is bullshit. A person with bad habits, who you REMOVE incentive to improve those habits (by locking in with a kid so you can't leave), is NOT likely to develop good habits out of the blue, they're likely to stay the same or let those habits get WORSE. Guys need to understand that.

    Which again comes back to: I think men can screen girls out a lot faster than they currently do…IF they're educated about what to screen for and more importantly WHY.

    'cause I can TELL you to screen out a girl who doesn't have good eating/gym habits. But if it doesn't bother you in the MOMENT because she's hot and sucking your dick so who cares, you're probably not gonna listen lol

    But if I can point you to a guide, written by the combined experience of men from all walks of life including the old guys, where you can see "here's how to pro-actively test her for or look for bad eating/gym habits, after the lock-in point of having kids, means she's likely to eat shittier food when she's pregnant (using the excuse she's eating for two, when really the 2nd person is the size of your hand and doesn't need that chocolate cake it just needs an extra serving of nutritious food but our culture promotes the idea that pregnancy means EAT ALL THE CHOCOLATE AND ICE CREAM!!!!) and is likely to make excuses not to lose the pregnancy weight (because that requires good eating/gym habits, which you can see she doesn't have in the first few months of vetting her), so while you're having fun NOW you have to consider that after you have a kid or two, you will have a fat wife that still eats shitty and doesn't exercise, is that something you want in a long-term prospect? If not, keep her as FB only and screen another girl for LTR potential instead.

    Can anyone else see the value in the red pill community having this type of guide/chart/article/etc thing? Am I crazy here, thinking this would be a great resource? lol

    "Those are all valuable things for a possible LTR."

    I think where I'm going with this is almost let's abolish traditional monoLTRs as they are. Let's streamline everything down into two types of relationships: either she passes all this screening, which we condense down into something a guy can execute before the NRE wears off (so in under 2 years) so she's properly vetted as baby mama material as quickly as possible so you can knock her up in the NRE stage where you have the most influence to get her to pass up the career path (that will make her unhappy in the end anyway) to have kids with you etc

    Or they don't pass the screening and are FBs/harem ONLY.

    VS the current setup where we have all these half-way girls, because we don't have a streamlined efficient way to screen them, every guy is just winging it or avoiding screening them (out of ignorance or misguided conditioning or scarcity), so we have guys in their 20s getting into monoLTRs with girls that CLEARLY aren't going to be a good long-term investment, but they waste 4 years with the chick, 4 years that they could've been meeting ones who DO pass the Speed Screening(TM! Just coined it! lol Original PUA community was called Speed Seduction, so that's a perfect name for it lol).

    It's like we have guys walking around in a maze and they don't have any real guide except what they're piecing together or bits and pieces they've picked up from male influences (which are getting less and less) and horror stories (which are getting more and more) so they're walking down paths they think MIGHT lead to the exit but keep running into dead ends after a few years and, if they did it mono style, they wasted a TON of time walking toward that dead end.

    With a Speed Screening guide, they could know as soon as they step onto that path "you know what, this flag here means that this is probably going to be a dead end for me…maybe not for some guys, some of them might be okay with where this path will likely lead according to the guide, but for me it sounds like this isn't going to be a good path, so I won't go further with this one…I'll keep her as a fuckbuddy but I'll wrap it up and not let myself picture us being together long-term and I'll look for other prospects instead of spending 4 years with this one to find out I was walking toward a dead end"

    That's often the biggest downside to guys who do monoLTRs in their 20s (I know a bunch who've made this same comment)…they invested all this time and effort into the relationship and then when it didn't work out (which they could've predicted if they paid attention to the flags better, or knew what flags to look for or WHY they mattered), and in the end not only did they end up with NOTHING in terms of getting closer to having and raising kids (ie – I run around single like an asshole slaying poon for 5 years while they spend 5 years in monogamy complaining to me about all the poon they have to turn down because they think it's going to be worth it when they have this girl who's flags they're not grasping the severity of long-term, and then their LTR comes to a head and dies and there they are, single just like me with nothing to show for that 5 years, except they have to play catch-up learning how to navigate the single scene).

    So if we can get them Speed Screening, with a nice straightforward guide of "pro-actively test for this flag by doing some of these things and seeing what she does, and if she doesn't pass this flag then here's where that's likely to lead once you can't leave because you have a kid with her, and here's how to manage that if it happens but some of these things won't be managable (or we haven't found solutions for them yet) so you decide whether you want to take that risk or not", that could help equip men with better tools to not waste their time.

    But like, let's abolish the "she's ALMOST perfect so I'll see where this goes, maybe I can fix her…" concept. In 2016 she's got enough social influences around her that you're always going to be fighting an uphill battle trying to get her to, say, hit the gym when all of her social media is telling her she's perfect and you're a jerk for expecting her to hit the gym when she never did before etc etc and she's more likely to go TO that social media for support against you if she DIDN'T have good habits before because she doesn't LIKE what you're trying to get her to do.

    "Going to the gym I’d regard secondary (which does NOT mean she should be a fat, chain smoking slob lol)."

    See I wouldn't even say it's about prioritizing the flags in order, because each guy will have his own value system so there's too much room for disagreement on whether "niceness" is more important than "gym" etc.

    I'd say it's more about categorizing things into almost:

    1) Things that WILL result in a nightmare (so here's where you'd screen for the nightmare stuff like BPD traits and give guys pro-active tools like purposely getting caught flirting with another girl to see how she reacts etc, and explain WHY those things are bad and what behavior those things are likely to lead to…like does she throw a tantrum when you purposely don't let her get her way a few months in? Because that behavior will likely be WORSE when you can't walk away after you have a kid)

    2) Things that might lead to a lack of sexual satisfaction (so here's where guys would learn how to pro-actively screen for eating/gym habits or sexual habits/hangups what to extrapolate from them about how she'll be after you're locked in with a kid, how to fix/prevent those things if they happen, etc)

    (and how to tell her "best behavior" from "how she actually is", ie – you can pretty much check for eating/gym habits in month one when you go to her apartment and see a yoga mat and gym bag and she talks about her workout yesterday and shit…but you might not get the "real" default sex from her until 6 months or a year in when she isn't bringing her pornstar A game to the table (except most guys end up in a slow frog boil where they don't even pay attention to how the sex has changed until they're locked in VS if we make sure they understand to pay attention to that shit and why and give them strategies to fix/prevent it etc)…or like, you can test for jealousy pretty early on, she's going to have instinctive responses to that for the most part, but you might not be able to test for other things till she's comfortable)

    3) Things that might indicate she'll be a shitty baby mama (so how can you pro-actively test for how she is with kids…instead of waiting 2 years to just HAPPEN to be around kids and see how she acts, pro-actively get her to hang out with your neice/nephew a few months in for a few hours and watch her, Speed Screening pro-actively instead of the current slow format)

    That way it's more about "you decide what outcomes/risks are important to you, this is just a guide of what to expect will probably happen", if that makes sense. It's more about education about what traits indicate, rather than telling them what traits to value over others (I may decide I can handle social media orbiters and the sex stuff is more important while you may decide you don't want to deal with that shit and don't care about the sex as much (maybe you're 50yo and are fine with a slack sex life) as the niceness (because you want to have another kid or have kids from a previous marriage etc)).

    Again does anyone see the value in the discussion/idea/guide I'm trying to bring to the table here, for the average man and future generations of men?

    We have a weak screening process right now, it's scattered and messy and full of holes and lack of explanation and lack of strategy and full of just waiting for things to happen, like we know "observe her around kids" but one guy might see that in month one and another might see it in year 4. But with an easy to reference guide of "here's how to pro-actively screen, and when you shoould do it, and why it's important, and what her reactions imply will likely be the outcome for you down the road and, if she DOESN'T pass the flag here are things you can TRY to help change/teach/influence her, but understand that if she resists or just isn't wired that way then you shouldn't waste your time following this path to a dead end…cut your losses and keep her as a harem girl but start vetting another one".

    "This is huge and can’t be stressed enough. Meet the family asap and notice erything closely, relationship to Mum, Dad, IS there a Dad anyway lol, relitionship between Mum and Dad through a Red Pill lense: is he Alpha/Beta, does she boss him around, how are the vibes between them, good, bad, tight, dark, messy and so on."

    Right. I know a lot of dudes, especially red pill single guys, who avoid meeting the family for as long as possible even in actual monoLTRs they get into. But if we reduce the categories down to just either casual FB or potential baby mama, none of this halfway shit, then a guy either doesn't meet the parents and doesn't consider the girl for potential baby mama potential, or if she seems like baby mama potential he pro-actively meets the parents early on so he can observe her influences and how she's likely to view a 2-parent household looking.

    Again for the old guys this will be "DUHHH in MY day you would bring the oxen over to her parents' farm to have dinner and discuss the coming harvest season before asking if you may court her daughter", but this is shit that guys in 2016 aren't being taught and social customs have changed and hell even GIRLS often don't want a guy to meet their parents too soon (for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is that meeting the parents makes it feel "serious" and they're being conditioned to not want a "serious" relatioship till after their career and riding the carousel etc, just like they hate going on "dates" now because it's too "serious" they just want to "netflix & chill" or "hang out" (which is hilarious because 10 years ago GUYS were the ones using "hang out" to avoid using the word "date" and now GIRLS do it lol)).

    "watch closely how she interacts with children and how children REACT to her."

    Right, see we all KNOW this. Like, old guys have told us this for years. Everyone KNOWS that you want to vett her in that way.

    BUT, in actual reality of how it plays out infield, how many guys find out how she interacts with children EARLY ON? VS finding it out a couple years in? So what if we educated guys on not just why this is important, but on why they should screen for it early (if the girl seems like she might be potential 2-parent household with kids material) and how to smoothly pro-actively make it happen (borrow your nephew for a day you schedule hanging out with her and act like oops we're stuck with him today and observe etc).

    There are guys who will think of that on their own, or do it by fluke, but I'm talking a mass applicable guide/system for men. The same way there are guys who will figure out not to buy a girl a drink for a girl, but having it written out in a guide and the whys of it and a guide of responses for the situation etc, made that knowledge/technique more widespread faster across the board for any guy who was shown it.

    Like I'm talking making some guides that could help create a mass shift across that 90% of men over the next 10 years.

    "Maybe start some hobby together which is NOT RELATED to your LTR with her at all, like some voluntary work or shit, some project which takes planning and organizing on your part together. Observe how she handles/manages administrative shit, how she can cope with stress, how her socializing skillz are, is she generally generating harmony with other people (outside your LTR) or is there always hassle and stress wherever she goes lol"

    A good idea. Basically pro-actively pushing her through stress tests to see how she handles it, instead of just crossing your fingers and wasting 5+ years (especially in a monoLTR) and hoping that she has all those traits but not really knowing until you're a kid and legal marriage contract in and find out she's terrible at it and blows the relationship up. Like that's something you could pro-actively do in year two to figure out if you should cut your losses or not.

    "Your great grandfather would also have virgin on that list…"

    lol virgins are easy to get to cheat these days (VS the past where it was harder for guys to get access to putting ideas in her head) as I've pointed out a bunch of times (ask me how I know lol).

    That said though, I'm not even going to make fun of the low N-count thing. Let's INCLUDE that in a guide under the "traits likely to lead to infidelity".

    So that would have stuff like Softek's GF cheating on her last ex to date him. That's a huge red flag that she's demonstrated she's okay with doing that and in the guide we say "if you see that red flag, that indicates that she's okay with doing that and once you're locked in with a kid, if she's ALSO not failing the social media flag we mentioned earlier in the guide, that's a recipe for her cheating on you to trade up…here are some things you can do to try to prevent that or fix it if it happens, but YOU decide if these are outcomes you want to risk"

    And your virgin thing in the same section…"if she has a low N-count, she's statistically more likely to stay faithful (at least in the past, we need updated data for the Tinder culture where virgins have infininitely more social pressure and options to fuck around with compared to pre-social media), BUT that also means that she's going to wonder what she missed out on and she's going to have the pressure of her 2016 peers trying to get her to slut it up to join the crabs in the bucket and guys will be able to seduce her by implying that she's missed out etc etc…here are ways to lower that risk (don't let her leave the house lol), or how to handle it if it happens (can you forgive her cheating once or will that be a deal-breaker etc)

    And "if she has a high N-count, she's probably going to be a good lay BUT understand that you're going to probably have to deal with more potential to stray, alpha-widow baggage from her past, in 2016 her exes may still be in touch with her on Facebook waiting for their chance, etc"

    And YOU, the guy reading the guides, decide if these risks/outcomes/prevention tactics/fixes are acceptable to you or not.

    So it's more about education than actually telling guys what they should/shouldn't value. Just a huge cause/effect/prevention safety guide basically lol

    on September 11th, 2016 at 3:14 pm
    Original Link

    @hank holiday
    2016 man, flake is the default lol don’t stress it yet. What are the details of the flake? Just didn’t show? Hasn’t txted all day and you haven’t txted her? You txted her and she hasn’t responded? You txted and she cancelled with an excuse? What’s the situation? Has the time/day of the Day2 passed or is it later today?

    on September 11th, 2016 at 3:43 pm
    Original Link

    @Anonymous Reader @Scribblerg
    “In multiple threads on this site and others I’ve pointed out that If Trends Continue, “Marriage” will be something practiced only by the UMC / UC and religious people. I also have pointed out for some 6 or 7 years now here and there and elsewhere that while the risk of divorce is not uniformly distributed across the social space, it’s still a credible number that leads to a 20% to 25% chance of frivorce for an “average” man.”

    lol ya, I’ve said numerous times since SJF brought up the UMC stuff, that while I’m skeptical they’re all the perfect relationships his UMC-goggles give him, I don’t doubt that in certain communities like the religious UMC where traditional marriage is still held in high value etc marriage is probably less risky than for the 90% of men who aren’t in that circumstance and that I’m looking for solutions for that 90%, the average guy who isn’t surrounded by church-going farmgirls.

    Maybe he scroll-wheeled past my posts too fast to actually read them lol

    And even THEN, there’s STILL no actual benefit to getting legally married that you can’t get without the legal contract so it’s all moot anyway. Just how much pointless risk you want to throw into your life for no reason lol

    “Because killing the middle class kills the country.”

    The disdain/ZFG for non-UMC men (or guys who weren’t born with advantages (like good male influences etc)) here blows my mind. I’m not even thinking about the country, I’m thinking about all the minorities and shit that are in that 90%, like I have tons of buddies from all sorts of different backgrounds and races that I’m picturing trying to help. I can’t relate to this “well this small set of white people have a 75% chance of success, so eh, fuck everyone else” mindset. Like, what about my non-white buddy who’s a plumber and is just looking to settle down and have kids someday. “Sorry bro, you better become a millionaire ASAP or we’ll just exclude you from our concern”…like, what even IS that mentality? Are people here to just help the top 10% do even better? That’s like ignoring the Tylers to train the Chad Thundercocks to me, that doesn’t even make sense.

    Like SJF’s quote here “How many times do I have to say: I don’t care about the happiness of others or the lack of skill of 90% of men? I care about me, my family, those around me that aren’t unhappy and unlucky. I’m not going to come up with a decent strategy for marriage in 2016 for anyone but my son because that is a red-herring question and society won’t allow it for most men.” just makes me shake my head. I guess I just kind of assumed guys gave a shit.

    “You wound up divorced, alienated from your daughter and paying Sugar Babies to get any female attention, right? How would a young man benefit from your experience except as an example of what not to do?”

    Minus the savage burn on this one, I really do think Scribblerg’s experience could contribute to the Speed Screening stuff I’m talking about. Like he’s kind of an example of the guy I’m talking about: he came here after being obliterated in divorce, and now what’s our answer for him to have kids (if he was say 10-20 years younger and still wanted some)? Jump BACK into that system and give it another whirl? He would probably never do that just from the emotional scarring ALONE of what he went through.

    Same with MeadowLarkLemon, like he says: “I always revert to social-circle game after awhile and end up meeting a chick who I like more than the rest, then end up in a monoLTR with her, coast on the NRE for awhile, realize she has too many problems/red flags to be marriage material, cut the cord, and then the cycle starts anew. When I was younger and dumber I was in a couple of relationships that went on for years, now my vetting skills are a lot faster. Not a perfect solution, but none of them are. I feel like I have decent pickup game, and decent LTR game, trying to be that well-rounded Larry Bird player lol”

    Now what if we could have saved him a bunch of that time and given him a Speed Screening guide that would have taught him the screening shit he had to learn the long hard slow way, so that he could have even done his monoLTR thing but sniffed out problems/red flags sooner, and possibly found a compatible long-term mate sooner by not wasting months/years on girls until he learned to screen faster.

    And what if, en masse, guys were Speed Screening. What effect would THAT have on the SMP?

    What did Scribblerg learn from his first marriage, what red flags does he see looking back on it that might have indicated she would alienate his child the way she did? What kind of things does he think would have helped him to have noticed or screened for earlier on in the relationship? What things could we pro-actively recommend guys watch for and test for to try to screen out that kind of outcome, but in the first couple years instead of however many years it was before Scribblerg got nuked?

    Same with Blaximus, what did he learn from his first marriage that we could form into a cause-effect-solution safety guide and find ways to screen for faster? What screening would Blaximus’ current wife pass that his first wife would have failed, and how can guys pro-actively screen for that in the first year or two instead of way into a marriage?

    on September 11th, 2016 at 3:56 pm
    Original Link

    @hank holiday
    lol all good dude. Mainly just a product of the city you’re in right now. When you get to a better city you’ll be able to just txt another girl.

    Don’t send her butthurt venting txts or anything. You may run into her at the same place again and/or you could try just flat out phoning her today. Be prepared to leave a voicemail ’cause they rarely actually answer, but try to get in direct touch with her. You could leave a voicemail like “hey I can’t make today, a friend dropped in from out of town, we’ll give it a go another day, stay out of trouble, stalker ;)” and you might be able to turn it around.

    The main thing is like, even though it’s pissing you off, don’t show it. Part of flaking is instinctively seeing how the guy will react to it. A cool abundant guy would let it roll off his back (though he might be less eager to make plans with her) whereas a guy in scarcity etc will flip out and leave her one of these:

    lol give that a listen, it’ll be therapeutic for your current frustrated state and make you because it’s probably REALLY TEMPTING to leave similar voicemails like this lol

    @Anonymous Reader @Scribblerg
    “LOL ! That’s pretty much what YaReally has been asking over and over and over and over and over again, to no real answer. You sperged at him for saying almost exactly this text. I’m laughing out loud and people in the coffee joint are looking at me sideways.”

    Thank god someone else saw that. When I was reading his rant I was like “umm, this is exactly what I’ve been saying? Why is he acting like he’s owning me here? He’s just asking the exact same thing I’ve been asking” lol I was like “wtf??”

    I legit think some guys just like to argue with anything I say at this point lol Like if I posted it under another username it’d be like “oh ya that’s a valid point” but now it’s “pfft that arrogant YaReally I’m gonna take him down!!” lol

    “Happened to overhear a pair of 19 year old girls the other day complaining that their parents had tried to friend them on Facebook. Both had already moved on to Tumblr. By YaReally standards they’re Amish…”

    UNICORNS!! Get the golden lasso and knock em up STAT!!

    on September 11th, 2016 at 4:07 pm
    Original Link

    @hank holiday
    lol all good dude. Mainly just a product of the city you’re in right now. When you get to a better city you’ll be able to just txt another girl.

    Don’t send her butthurt venting txts or anything. You may run into her at the same place again and/or you could try just flat out phoning her today. Be prepared to leave a voicemail ’cause they rarely actually answer, but try to get in direct touch with her. You could leave a voicemail like “hey I can’t make today, a friend dropped in from out of town, we’ll give it a go another day, stay out of trouble, stalker ;)” and you might be able to turn it around.

    The main thing is like, even though it’s pissing you off, don’t show it. Part of flaking is instinctively seeing how the guy will react to it. A cool abundant guy would let it roll off his back (though he might be less eager to make plans with her) whereas a guy in scarcity etc will flip out and leave her one of these:

    lol give that a listen, it’ll be therapeutic for your current frustrated state and make you because it’s probably REALLY TEMPTING to leave similar voicemails like this lol

    @Anonymous Reader @Scribblerg
    “LOL ! That’s pretty much what YaReally has been asking over and over and over and over and over again, to no real answer. You sperged at him for saying almost exactly this text. I’m laughing out loud and people in the coffee joint are looking at me sideways.”

    Thank god someone else saw that. When I was reading his rant I was like “umm, this is exactly what I’ve been saying? Why is he acting like he’s owning me here? He’s just asking the exact same thing I’ve been asking” lol I was like “wtf??”

    I legit think some guys just like to argue with anything I say at this point lol Like if I posted it under another username it’d be like “oh ya that’s a valid point” but now it’s “pfft that arrogant YaReally I’m gonna take him down!!” lol

    “Happened to overhear a pair of 19 year old girls the other day complaining that their parents had tried to friend them on Facebook. Both had already moved on to Tumblr. By YaReally standards they’re Amish…”

    UNICORNS!! Get the golden lasso and knock em up STAT!!

    “@Anon – Nice to see you are still a tedious cunt. And of course, that’s not what Ya has been saying that I disagreed with, you jackass. I was correcting his false assertions about “the stats”.”

    Bro I’ve been saying since SJF talked about the UMC that in certain UMC/religious circles marriage is still probably not that bad (even though there’s still no benefit) but they’re the minority not the majority, the 90% I’ve been talking about helping this whole time, “the stats” are obviously for the average Joe the Plumber like I’ve been using as my example since the fucking start lol Your chart shows that the vast majority of men (including 25% of the UMC crowd) is getting fucked and outside of SJF’s farm the stats are TANKING from divorce to happiness in marriage. Read my posts closer dude lol I’m talking about the average Joe and have been from the start.

    on September 11th, 2016 at 4:08 pm
    Original Link

    oops lol, didn’t clear the hank stuff from my notepad before cutting n pasting there

    on September 11th, 2016 at 4:24 pm
    Original Link

    “let alone choosing a different mate”

    What would you have screened for? What red flags do you see now that you didn’t notice at the time and how do you think you could have screened for them pro-actively? Obviously there was more to the situation than just her, but for a guide to Speed Screening this is the kind of life wisdom we’d want to hear from you old experienced guys so we can build a better system.

    @Anonymous Reader
    “This. RIght here. One of the men I know who was frivorced had this happen after 5 or 6 years of being married and two children. Suddenly she was “too busy” to make even an attempt to keep house; after 1 hour drive home he had to pick the least dirty glass out of the sink to wash so that he could pour himself some ice water. The flags were there”

    Right. Guys want us to just screen for magic unicorns, so okay, how can we screen FASTER and more efficiently and pro-actively instead of passively?

    Passive screening means you have more sunk cost fallacy shit involved and it’s harder to accept the red flags you see in year 4 than if you saw them in year 1.

    Whereas if we had a teachable/codified pro-active screening system:

    1) men would root through the non-unicorns to find the unicorns faster (realistically there are no unicorns but he could find better long-term candidates who at least have red flags that don’t bother him and has been screened for the red flags that WOULD bother him based on the predicted outcome of what those red flags will lead to after he’s locked in with a kid)

    and 2) helps you compartmentalize easier so you KNOW Suzie isn’t a candidate for baby mama because she didn’t pass the screening in month 4 VS the current system where you might not even screen her for that until year 2 or she might not pass it but you still don’t know maybe she’ll change maybe you can change her bla bla fuck all that, how can that same guy screen for those traits faster and then what can he do, in guide-form, to TRY to change them or influence her before he cuts his losses (ie – for a guy who’s girl doesn’t eat well or exercise when he meets her, he can try getting her to come to the gym or try choosing healthy meals for them to eat when she wants pizza and see how she reacts etc, and if she looks changable he’ll at least know the risks, and if she doesn’t put her in the FB only category and move on before getting too invested/attached)

    I mean, the unicorn-hunters should LOVE this idea. This is right up their alley. “Just find a unicorn like my daughter!” Okay, let’s teach men how to screen as fast as possible then.

    “Can’t quite imaging a lot of metrosexual hipsters like I see every day trying this,”

    lol right, but remember we’re talking about explaining to them “look, the reason pro-actively testing for this in year one is important is because long-term when you have less ability to leave the relationship after you have a kid, this test will tell you whether she’s likely to be a fucking nightmare or a girl that’s still cool to you…it’s up to you if you want to take the risk or if you even consider this one a risk long-term and here are some strategies for handling it if it goes sour, BUT the point of this test is to vett her for baby mama long-term 2-parent household settle down material.

    “but there are still rural places where connectivity is crummy and the cabins don’t have TV. I know a man in his 30’s (wife, kid, another on the way) who lived in Colorado for a while, and any woman that wanted to be around him had to be willing to go bag 14’rs. Not willing to walk up Mt. Princeton, or even Pikes Peak? Later.”

    Right, see me I don’t give a shit if she wants to walk up a mountain and stuff. I don’t even wanna do that lol BUT, testing how much she COMPLAINED about it, to learn how she handles situations when they aren’t going her way, might be worth walking up that mountain.

    But guys aren’t screening hard these days because they’re so thirsty and they don’t have any real guidance on it except vague “make sure she’s not a complainer”. Why don’t we flat out tell them “plan an uncomfortable camping trip around the 6 month mark and purposely plan for things to go wrong, forget something important she needs at home and see how she handles the situation, and here’s what you can extrapolate life with her will be like once you’re locked in with a kid based on what happened on that trip”

    Again I hope the value of this is becoming clear to the skeptics lol This isn’t just a PUA thing, this is for guys who want to foolishly get married and be monogamous too. This would be an across the board guide to Speed Screening for the highest odds of pulling off the successful loving 2-parent household raising kids for 18+ years (whether you’re legally married or not, whether you promise monogamy or not)

    on September 11th, 2016 at 4:29 pm
    Original Link

    @Anonymous Reader
    ““Can’t quite imaging a lot of metrosexual hipsters like I see every day trying this,””

    Also remember we’re talking about a guy in his mid-30s doing this VS a little squirrel 21yo hipster lol THAT guy is on the “hyperfocus on learning game and having more than one option etc” track. So the guy in his 30s might still be a metrosexual hipster but probably not as lame as the younger version of himself.

    on September 11th, 2016 at 5:18 pm
    Original Link

    “You can’t keep asking for opinions, and then shit all over the opinion you get.”

    Disagreeing that they hold up in 2016 is not the same as shitting all over them. And stating something that’s been written about by Rollo himself in multiple articles and is massively accepted throughout the red pill community (that “love” is a FI-conditioned feels-based label used to get men to self-sacrifice without asking logical questions that would demonstrate there’s no benefit to them) is not shitting all over your opinions. It’s just looking at them and pulling them apart to see what makes them actually tick and if they’re applicable to relationships in 2016.

    @Anonymous Reader
    “That can happen to almost any man, if too many things happen at once; say the first child is born and his mother dies the same month and he has to crank up at work to keep his job, or stuff like that. Seriously betaizing stuff like that will lead to more shit testing from his wife at a time when he’s least likely to be able to deal with it, and if he’s never seen that kind of testing before he’s blindsided in a WHUT? moment by what appears to be betrayal. Even the most vetted of women can resort to that, because as Rollo has made so very clear, women love opportunistically. ”

    Again coming back to that situation being better if the guy isn’t legally tied to her. It would still be a rough situation but at least on top of all of that he won’t be risking his financial stability and probably joining the insane male suicide rate.

    on September 11th, 2016 at 5:42 pm
    Original Link

    “Don’t cherry pick Rollo’s work, read all of it. It’s vast in subject and content and is better taken in detail as a whole.”

    Thanks for the tip. Been reading it since back when he had like 6 articles up. Knew it was solid work even back then and kept reading. Been deeply versed in this shit and thousands of other men’s problems and shared experiences across the board for years before that while you guys were myopically focused on your own lives and personal close friends.

    Love has been debunked as FI-conditioning repeatedly, not just by him but all over the red pill world.

    But thanks for the old man condescending. For a being badass super hard old alpha males you guys sure are delicate snowflakes when someone disagrees with you or questions the validity of what you’re saying or your view on your experiences and we have to put all these trigger warnings out and shit just to keep you from flying off the handle at us.

    I’m a young and retarded piece of shit who doesn’t know anything about the world apparently, so of course I’M a dick…what’s YOUR guys’ excuse?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:04 pm
    Original Link

    @Culum Struan
    “What I don’t understand is why nobody seems to accept that the two things are Not Exclusive (I think YaReally has alluded to it though).”

    Yup. This has been my point since the start and I’ve said repeatedly that yes, being alpha IS great, that IS what keeps attraction going, I 100% agree. There’s just no reason to legally sign a contract and/or promise monogamy and make staying alpha harder to accomplish.

    But that’s getting called being a pussy, risk-avoidance, and a bunch of other FI-based male disposibility shaming tactics etc etc lol

    That’s why I keep saying I don’t think these guys would even disagree if they actually slowed up and read what I was saying and understood that what we’re saying doesn’t contradict. I’m not advocating for absentee fatherism and broken homes and guys NOT improving themselves and NOT being alpha 24/7 bro etc

    Like I agree with this completely and have since the start:


    I’m just saying don’t stack odds against yourself on the off chance that you might NOT be able to stay alpha 24/7 forever, when there are no benefits to it in 2016 and you can have everything you would get out of a legal monogamous marriage without the legal contract or promising monogamy parts.

    “Also, I’m like 6 pages in (and I particularly liked the HABD and Blax descriptions of the benefits of marriage), but I still haven’t seen any answer to YaReally’s repeated question of why you need a LEGAL state-sanctioned marriage to get ANY of the benefits of marriage. I see a bunch of benefits for the WOMAN to get a legal state-sanctioned marriage but I just don’t see what a man gets out of it that he wouldn’t get by holding a big “wedding” and living in a house with a woman and having kids and stuff – just without a marriage licence.”

    lol you got it. I’m so glad other guys reading this who aren’t invested in the conversation can clearly see what’s going on and what my point is.

    “Am I misunderstanding something?”

    Nope, it’s surreal isn’t it? It’s so simple. There’s no reason for this to have blown up into 6 pages of this shit. This is just simple common sense. I wasn’t expecting at ALL to have to explain why marriage/monogamy make things more difficult to red pill guys, especially when no one has actually answered the question of: what benefits are there to a man in 2016 to marry and promise monogamy to a woman in 2016, in 2016 culture, that he can’t get without the legal contract and/or promising monogamy (VS simply choosing not to sleep around)?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:07 pm
    Original Link

    “literally the only arguments in favor of monogamous marriage are —>

    ‘if you’re some kind of level 99999 wizard of alpha game you can maybe have this ONE WOMAN who will GET OLD not RAPE YOU in court and ABANDON you’”

    That’s not even a benefit, that’s just an “it’s not impossible”. And it’s true, it’s not impossible. But what’s the point of risking that when you can ALSO have ONE WOMAN who will GET OLD not RAPE YOU in court and ABANDON you if you just don’t sign a legal contract that gives her that ability?

    Like “you might NOT fall off this tightrope” doesn’t answer “what’s the benefit to walking across the tightrope” when at the other end of the tightrope is the exact same cash and prizes as at the other end of the bridge.

    If the tightrope had other cash and prizes that the bridge doesn’t have, cool, and in the past that may have been the case. But not in 2016.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:15 pm
    Original Link

    “I will be the first to admit that I take parenting maybe just a tad too seriously, but I have seen firsthand. how things can go very wrong when parenting skills lack.”

    EVERYONE agrees that you should be a good parent. NO ONE is advocating for being a shitty parent or abandoning your kids or not living with your girlfriend when you have kids together etc. NO ONE. NOOOOOO ONE. NO ONE IS PROMOTING THE GHETTO LIFESTYLE OF ABSENTEE FATHERISM AND KNOCKING UP 50 WOMEN AND AVOIDING RAISING THEM.

    We’re specifically looking for better ways to improve the odds that the man will be ABLE to stay in that home and raise those kids.

    “She was in my home. A stable, normal environment with rules and expectations. She was given love (…damn, there’s that pesky word again…)and attention and discipline. Strong love, strong discipline.”

    None of that requires a legal contract and/or promising monogamy (as you, yourself, have proven by admitting you didn’t verbally promise monogamy).

    @Sun Wukong
    “If (as YaReally claims and I agree) even the best of the younger women have become far worse to deal with in commitment, then it’s impossible to meet a guy who’s had a long enough marriage to one of them to know what works. It means that no matter what you guys tell us works with the older generation you’re married to, we have to take that with a huge grain of salt. Perhaps an entire salt lick.”

    Exactly. This has been my point from the start, that Sentient’s advice isn’t field-tested because it CAN’T be, and it’s why Scribblerg’s stats from 2010 are irrelvant etc. We literally aren’t able to field-test this stuff until we see how these relationships starting now turn out in 5-10 years. That’s why I keep stressing this 2016 thing.

    But we can see trends of guys TRYING to enter those relationships and SIGNIFICANTLY more are finding it SIGNIFICANTLY tougher in the field, even when they try to run the same game the older guys ran that worked back under a different culture with different value systems on women with different social conditioning.

    What I’m saying is based on trends and reports of what’s happening infield right now, that’s why all the guys who go out and try to get into relationships with 2016 girls are agreeing with me or see my point.

    “Hence my desire for a completely new arrangement that takes in to account for all the changes we all do agree younger women display outside of marriage.”

    This has been my point from the start. Man I’m glad other guys are dropping into the thread now and get what I’m saying lol that was a fucking long weekend of this shit:

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:20 pm
    Original Link

    “So if you grew up in a dysfunctional broken family what is the value to you in providing a loving stable unbroken family for the little you?”

    You can do this without a legal marriage contract or promising monogamy.

    There is no evidence to support that legal marriage or promising monogamy in 2016 increases your odds of the woman “loving” you and not straying.

    As Rollo has talked about numerous times you cannot negotiate desire and a legal contract and promising commitment/monogamy is just a buffer guys use to try to force their girl to not stray and it does not work as we see by divorce rates and guys in monogamous LTRs still having girls leave them etc.

    And everything we know about attraction indicates that limiting your ability to make her feel dread and increasing your outcome dependence by entering a situation where you have more to lose than her, either decreases attraction and increases her hand, or makes it significantly more difficult to keep hand and keep attraction.

    This is simple logic.

    You guys are equating legal marriage with “love”. False equivalency, the two things are unrelated. Marriage does not equal a loving stable long-term 2-parent household. You can have that without it and without promising monogamy (as Blaximus and SJF have proven by admitting they didn’t promise it but just CHOSE it voluntarily).

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:22 pm
    Original Link

    “I get that because things have shifted so dramatically in the past 10-15 years, that it is very difficult to figure it all out and proceed. But it’s my belief ( and this is a point of disagreement ) that there are workarounds that can be helpful when guys have more understanding of relationships, and not just how to talk a chick out of her panties.”

    For what benefit? What benefit is there to “figuring it out and proceeding” and finding these workarounds when EVERYTHING you get from doing everything you did minus the legal contract, can be gotten without any of the risk?

    Why is what I’m asking so hard to understand?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 4:25 pm
    Original Link

    “I will always push for self improvement and understanding. I would be derelict if I did not.”


    This goes back to what Culum Struan said:

    “What I don’t understand is why nobody seems to accept that the two things are Not Exclusive (I think YaReally has alluded to it though).”

    How can you STILL not understand this after 6 pages of me saying it over and over and over when a guy who’s just catching up sees it so blatantly clear.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 6:52 pm
    Original Link

    “And that marriage will never work”

    I’ve never said it will never work. You guys can’t actually argue my real points, as you’ve shown over 6 pages by not being able to answer what benefit there is for a man in 2016 to legally marry or promise monogamy to a woman in 2016 in 2016 culture that he can’t get without those things, so you’re just doubling-down on pretending my position is “IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK AND GUARANTEED TO FAIL” because you CAN argue THAT position, which is why it’s NOT my position because it’s a stupid one.

    “I can see how it would be harder to use dread in marriage, but it is very possible to do so. It’s up to you in the end.”

    We KNOW it’s possible. That’s why I’ve said over and over and over a thousand times that I’ve never said it’s IMPOSSIBLE or GUARANTEED that she’s going to bail on you. How many times can I say this and have you guys ignore it??

    We’re saying 1) there’s no benefit to it that you can’t get without the legal marriage part, so 2) there’s no reason to stack the odds even further against yourself.

    You can have love, a loving 2-parent household, live together, live together forever, raise kids in a stable 2-parent household together, etc ALL WITHOUT PROMISING A THING THAT COMES WITH ONLY RISKS AND NO BENEFITS YOU CAN’T GET WITHOUT IT.

    You could have created the exact same level of dread (MORE, even, since it would be easier for you to leave) by flirting with that girl in front of your non-legally-married wife just like you did, minus the legal contract that gives you nothing you couldn’t get without it.

    This is such a simple concept.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:01 pm
    Original Link

    “I can watch what she does and compare it with what she says as the week goes on and get a better handle on it.”

    Run Boyfriend Destroyers on her and try to fuck her.

    “But certainly the Marine could next her. It doesn’t sound like she would go for the ” have my babies, no marriage deal “…but I will ask her,lol.”

    Also run BFDs and try to fuck her again after she’s been married for a couple years and out of the NRE stage and he’s away for Army stuff.

    Also try attracting her and fucking her enough for her to want to LTR with you and then tell her you won’t marry her.

    Good luck with the field test!

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:05 pm
    Original Link

    “But I have no idea where the Marine’s head is at. He proposed, got the ring and set he date.”

    Odds are it’s the same as any other military dude: lock a girl down with the promise of commitment before you go away hoping that she won’t stray on you. And there’s a reason he probably knows who Jody is. And that’ll probably be okay (because I’ve never said marriage is impossible), though he’s handicapping himself and has to hope that no one purposely interferes.

    And “people purposely interfering” is what we’ve been talking about since the start, that’s been ramped up since your day.

    Help her set up a Tinder account even, take some pics of her and put them up with her and show her how many options she has all week. Like match 100+ dudes a day with her and flirt back and forth with them, while running BFDs etc. A unicorn will be able to resist everything lol

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:11 pm
    Original Link

    Even just do the bare minimum and make out with her. You have all week, laser eye-contact, that deep Blaximus sexy voice they all love, your sexy manly frame etc, see if you can get her to make out by the end of her stay. That’ll give us an idea of how much her engagement means to her.

    But don’t half-ass it, really turn on the Blax charm. You don’t have to fuck her, it’s just a harmless little kiss. That’ll tell you a lot more than surveying her.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:17 pm
    Original Link

    Plus because your wife would be okay with it since you didn’t promise monogamy and you don’t have a noose around your neck or anything, even if you get caught it shouldn’t matter. You could probably tell her flat out that you want to run a little experiment to try to kiss this chick and it won’t matter ’cause you have hand in the relationship and legal marriage doesn’t restrict you.

    You wanna field test this stuff right? YOU know a little kiss won’t mean anything to you or affect your feelings for your wife, and it’ll get you some good field data. Work out with her, laser, get to know her, Boyfriend Destroy her fiance, isolate her, cut the space, escalate. See how much her actions align with what she says or what you think of her based on first impressions.

    You got a full week, that’s a solid amount of time to work something. Remember to DHV and shit, show you’re the leader of men, AMOG her boyfriend (alternating into running Boyfriend Destroyers) etc.

    ’cause that’s what social media orbiters will be trying to do when her NRE wears off in a few years and she’s nowhere near the wall.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:20 pm
    Original Link

    “Lol. I have zero intentions of inviting someone into my home and then try to kiss/fuck them. That’s not really cool. At least for me.”

    But this is a chance to field test this stuff. You’re going to pass up the perfect opportunity to try the things we’re all doing infield and seeing other guys do infield and reporting on, and the going to tell me you don’t believe anything I say or anything’s changed etc?

    I mean, okay. But remember that’s your decision not to field test. This is why the opinion of guys who aren’t field testing has to take second place to the opinion of guys who ARE, if they contradict.

    Field is king.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:24 pm
    Original Link

    I’m not even actually expecting you to field test it, I know you won’t, but I’m making the point that WE are reporting changes infield based on DOING this stuff and seeing what happens and seeing other guys do this stuff (good and bad, orbiters and players) and seeing what happens and that’s what we’re reporting and that’s why the guys who are going out all generally get what I’m saying while the OMGs aren’t…you have experience and it’s awesome and we can get some useful things from it, and everyone agrees you should self-improve and be alpha and awesome and raise your kids etc

    We’re just saying that marriage doesn’t mean as much to that hot guest in your house than it did to your wife when you were dating her, and we know that from FUCKING that hot guest in your house and TRYING to sabotage her relationship and seeing hundreds of orbiters trying to do the same thing…THAT’S why field testing takes precedence over theory. You can sit there and BELIEVE that it means as much to her as it did to your wife, and you can ask her and she’ll TELL you it does…but you won’t have field tested it until you have your dick in her, or at LEAST make out with her and see how much what you think about her and what she says actually holds up infield.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:34 pm
    Original Link

    “successful marriages are doing that work and obviate the mental masturbation around reinventing those very same things for the guys who are unfazed by the lack of negative consequences because they will mever face them…”

    What benefit is there to even risk facing them VS not facing them at all and getting the exact same things out of the relationship?

    “Your fake hypothetical to Blax is still false though because Andi isnt married.”

    He can try fucking some married chicks next but this is a nice easy lay-up to show how a <25yo 8+/10 girl who might SEEM like she gives a shit about marriage, in 2016, might NOT place quite the same value on it that Blaximus' wife did back in the day.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 7:42 pm
    Original Link

    “YaReally needs field tests. Risk aversion and all. His values. Anti-civilization”

    Ya I hear that “science” stuff likes field tests too. BUNCHA RISK AVERSE ROCKET SCIENTISTS lol “Why don’t you just TRUST ME on how to build a million dollar rocket to fly to the moon risking everyone’s life, I haven’t done it myself but I built a bottle rocket in high school!”

    You idiot SCIENTISTS, wanting to TEST things lololol

    Do you even get how silly that sounds?

    You know who ELSE doesn’t approve of men field testing things to see if they’re being lied to by people who want them to self-sacrifice for no reason? The FI.

    “Blax lacks motive (Damn right). Because of fidelity to his wife and children. His principles. His civilization.”

    That’s fine, but he’s choosing NOT to field test what we’re saying. That’s my point. We and PUAs and the guys on TRP etc are field testing these things and he’s not.

    That’s TOTALLY FINE, that’s his decision. But it gives what we’re saying more weight than his theory/beliefs.

    “Logic, my ass. It’s values all the way down.”

    And he could have those same values without a legal contract or promising monogamy (he hasn’t promised monogamy but is choosing to BE monogamous, do you understand how that’s different than promising monogamy?)

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:05 pm
    Original Link

    @Rollo Tomassi
    “@YaReally, for as much as you write here I’m getting the sneaking suspicion that you use dictation software to “write” your comments.”

    I don’t, I just type fast as fuck because before I started sarging I was holed away like a hermit living online so I learned to type fast lol But in what way would it matter if I was using dictation software and why would “write” be in quotes lol

    “That said, I’m going to drop a new post here shortly, but before I do I’ll let you know that I have been following this thread for a while and my next post will be somewhat related.”

    Cool, I’m curious to see what you think because I know you instinctively want to join the OMG side of things, but your own writing and analysis for the last 5 years backs up everything I’m saying, so it’ll be interesting to see how you process that conflict. These guys are glossing over your writing about love and the FI convincing men to self-sacrifice for no reward and your own writing has talked about how you can’t negotiate desire and marriage being a buffer open hypergamy etc, BUT as a married dude I know you probably WANT to side with them too.

    So it’ll be interesting to see lol

    “I can’t help but sympathize with your grasp of the modern dating scene (even if it is localized to somewhere you don’t wish to let us all know where)”

    Avoiding doxxing and red pill communities have field data from all over so it doesn’t matter where I personally am any more than it matters that you’re in Vegas while 99% of men who we’re talking about helping aren’t.

    “and how utterly hopeless it is for men to expect anything less than complete, life altering despair from the prospect of marriage.”

    When you write your article could you please not summarize what I’m saying as “IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE IT WORK AND HOPELESS” like these guys are doing and like I’ve repeatedly said a thousand times that I’m NOT saying? It’s like guys think I’m saying you CAN’T win at a casino game just because the odds aren’t in your favor, that’s not what I’m saying at ALL and I have actively said the opposite. I’m saying you’re putting your money on the table to play that game and getting no prize for it that you couldn’t have gotten without playing and risking all your money.

    “Yet we still have an idealistic hope that the worst predations of women wont happen to us.”

    Again it just comes down to: what’s the benefit of taking that risk in 2016? Name anything at all that you can’t get without taking that risk? That’s all I’m asking.

    “We want to believe this woman is an outlier, but by order of degree, we know that whether it’s with softly spoken, loving words or a mommy blog that triumphantly yells these truths, women’s opportunistic concept of love will never align with our idealistic concept of love.”

    Exactly. AWALT. I’m not HAPPY with the situation, I’m not like “woohoo now everyone can avoid marriage”, I’m just objectively saying: this is what’s happened, the prize money you used to win from playing that casino game has been removed from the table and is being given out without playing the game, so why risk all your money when you can just have that prize?

    “You’re not the first to suggest the pLTR scheme as a workaround for marriage or raising a family sans marriage or binding commitment.”

    Right, I’m trying to get a discussion going. Lots of guys have tried this stuff and lots of guys have successfully DONE it (lots of celebrities are in these arrangements but they keep it as on the down low as possible).

    Because we don’t have any answers for guys who DO want to have kids, except “enter the same rigged game that raped you and that you’re watching rape all your friends around you” and I don’t think that’s good enough when there are potential answers based on how much we know about attraction.

    “but I think this is a poor substitute for what, as men we’d like to be an ideal, reciprocal marriage in which men can expect respect, desire, love, honor and all the other words no woman could ever hope to recite from their marriage vows.”

    Right, I’m not saying it’s perfect or going to be perfect the first time or doesn’t need tweaking, and if we looked at Mystery, xsplat, Tyler, etc we could find things to tweak and adjust, the same way we look at hank’s field reports and find things to tweak and adjust.

    But like, this is like guys saying “look Mystery, if you just be cool the girl will like you that’s the way it’s been done for thousands of years, so we don’t need your silly “break things down into a codifiable teachable system that accounts for changes in the courtship routines promoted by culture (casual dating VS trading her father some cattle lol)”, meanwhile the success rate for the average guy of the “old courtship routines” is tanking but I’m getting shouted down for trying to help come up with new systems?

    “I don’t think you’ve gone far enough YaReally. If you believe you can swing a pLTR or a loose harem that will constantly test your Game endurance and determination while at the same time you hope to be a good father – a good enough one to pass on your Game skills to a son – I think you’re clinging to a semblance of those old books yourself.”

    Based on what? Seriously think out this next part I’m about to describe. Like just objectively read this:

    – when I say not promising monogamy, that DOESN’T mean having even a SINGLE girl besides her if you don’t want to…you can NOT verbalize monogamy but still BE monogamous to her, just like Blaximus and SJF are. Not promising monogamy DOESN’T mean you HAVE to have a SINGLE other girl. You can be in a pLTR where you have the OPTION to fuck other girls but, just like Blaximus and SJF and yourself, still choose NOT to. I KNOW you understand this nuance, right?

    – when I say not signing a legal contract, that DOESN’T mean not living with her, not being in the kids’ lives, not having weddings and hanging with her family, not sleeping in the same bed every single night, etc. You can do ALL of those things, even in a pLTR (where you choose NOT to sleep with other girls), ALL without signing a legal piece of paper. You HAVE to understand that nuance, right? The other guys seem like they think if you aren’t legally married you’ll just pop in once in a while, but you could live your LITERAL exact same life that you live now, but without having scribbled your name on a piece of paper

    – so with those two things said, in what way would a pLTR where you have the OPTION but CHOOSE not to fuck other women, by CHOICE rather than by CONTRACT, and where you do EVERYTHING you and Blax and SJF are doing in your relationships but just without signing that legal piece of paper, make “being a good father” ANY different than it is for you guys?

    Please re-read those 3 points again, like, slowly, not just assuming what my point is, cutting out all the fluff and arguing here, but literally just read those 3 points and tell me in what way would a guy who’s monogamous to his girl with no side poon (but has the OPTION to have it, or discreetly has it when he goes on business trips and has a hotel room to himself for the night regardless of what his dick is up to), who’s living with her and they love eachother and they’re raising kids together and he’s there 24/7 just like YOU guys are, NOT going to be able to be as good a father as you?

    Does that make sense?

    It’s like you guys are picturing if you’re not promising monogamy and you’re not legally signing a contract, guys will just run out and knock up 50 girls and spend one night a month at home etc

    Your lives could look EXACTLY the same without a legal contract or promising/negotiating monogamy. You can be just as amazing a father as you are now and fuck just as few side women as you do now and be there for your kids the exact same way you are now, but without a noose.

    “There’s still an idealistic part of you (the same part that drove Mystery to the brink of suicide) that believes that’s a possible life you could live”

    Why does everyone keep thinking I’m talking about me? Do you have any IDEA how many guys I’m watching go off to the slaughter around me?? I’m looking for answers for men as a WHOLE. I MIGHT want this when I’m in my late 40s but this is for EVERYONE.

    “Honestly, I don’t think you can serve two masters; you can serve Game and yourself, our you can serve your children as a Father.”

    Again in what way would not promising monogamy but not having a harem of girls, just a fuckbuddy you bang when you’re away on business anyway etc (ie – being discreet so it takes no time away from your kids or wife), and living together with your wife 24/7 raising the kids 24/7 etc etc just like you guys are doing, but minus the legal signature on a piece of paper…in what way would you be serving your children as a Father any less? Serious question.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:09 pm
    Original Link

    “Your premise has not been field tested by you (sure the guys you have met over the years couldn’t get their woman do it): that a woman can’t hold up her end of the deal. Not my experience (or Blax, Sentient, or Rollo).”

    My point is those men were taking an unneccesary risk. So are you guys. You guys made it work and that’s great, but there’s no reason for men in 2016 to take that same risk when they can have the exact same benefits without the risk.

    The argument isn’t that it CAN’T work, it’s why should we even TRY to make it work, when we can get the exact same benefits without the risks. No one has actually answered that with something you can’t get without it, in 2016, with 2016 girls, raised with 2016 social conditioning and views on relationships/marriage/temptation.

    “I don’t need other guys experience. Nor should they care about mine.”

    That’s fine, then we can devalue your opinion because it’s not based on mass field data.

    “Good luck with that when you meet an Andi and she proves to be the real deal after two years of vetting. (To imagine her fiance’s resources, skill or mindset is irrelevent. To imagine she would kiss Blax is irrelevant. Unless you have a Madonna/Whore complex. Then yes, don’t think it can work. Shut down the engines and mitigate all risk. Next her and move on to the next large batch of pussy out there waiting for you.)”

    Or instead of Next’ing her, just have a long term LTR with her without the legal contract.

    “Andi’s fiances chances at having a LTR and children and surviving the Nautical disaster are so low that there is no hope. So don’t even try.”

    No, surviving a monogamous legally contracted marriage means significantly high risk with significantly low odds in his favor. And he could have an LTR and children with her minus the legal contract or promising monogamy.

    “Got it.”

    I don’t think you do lol

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:12 pm
    Original Link

    “What PUAs are “field testing” raising children full-time? TRP is anti-marriage, don’t get her pregnant.”

    What married guys are “field testing” raising children without a legal contract signed while staying in the relationship and loving her and raising the kids with good healthy values and influence (VS the ghetto example)?

    Why not get her pregnant and then just decide to stay with her long-term and be a father and raise those kids instead of legally signing a paper that risks half your assets and then doing the exact same thing but under threat of a noose?

    Why is your guy’s argument: “either legally contract yourself to her or NEVER GET INTO AN LTR OR HAVE KIDS EVER”?

    Why can’t a guy just get into an LTR and have kids with her and do everything you guys are doing but without a legal contract or promising monogamy?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:19 pm
    Original Link

    “Yes I do. But last time I checked they actually did land on the moon, that despite all odds.”

    And have they stopped experimenting since the 70s? They just said “okay we landed once and nothing will change since then, so we can fire all our scientists and just keep building that same rocket in 2016 and following the exact same procedure, no room for improvement or better calculations at all!”

    “Was it fucking adventurous, and a dopamine inducing high? Hell yes. Did the nation come to it’s senses and stop doing that shit?”

    Then your argument for legally signing a marriage contract is the dopamine rush of thrill-seeking taking risks? That’s cool, my option is for the guys who find that unsettling and not worth the reward that they can get without taking that risk.

    Why not NOT sign a legal contract, do all the usual marriage and kids stuff, and then get a motorcycle or play poker to take some big risks?

    All you’re doing is the same “a REAL man takes pointless risks” shaming the FI does to get men to do stuff that goes against their best self-interests.

    “Fuck LTR’s and the future of raising children”

    I’ve never been against LTRs or raising children. I am actively trying to find ways for men to do that with better odds than the flawed marriage system option they currently have.

    “If it is not field tested, it is invalid.”

    It’s not invalid, it’s just keyboard theory. And if the field contradicts it then the field overrules it. You can’t say “gravity makes things fall up” and when we drop thousands of things and they all fall downward go “WHO YOU GONNA BELIEVE, THE FIELD OR ME??” lol That’s just basic science 101.

    “How can I have children without a fidelitous non monogamous relationship with the mother of my children. In other words, where is the cheat codes.”

    Before Mystery hit the field and the red pill and 5 years worth of Rollo’s incredible writing, lots of people would have said the exact same thing about nerds having sex and guys trying to have sex without courting the girl’s father or having a relationship in the girl’s frame.

    If there are cheat codes, we should look for them, because if we find them, men across the board benefit. Rollo’s writing wouldn’t be here if men weren’t looking for cheat codes. You want them to stop looking, just like the FI does…because the scary part is what if there ARE cheat codes and they WORK?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:37 pm
    Original Link

    “PUAs lecturing on how to have a relationship with the mother of your kids and how to raise kids full time is keyboard jockeying, until they get around to field testing it”

    We’re not saying how TO, we’re just pointing out that the current system is VERY flawed and pointing out that now that as a community we understand attraction etc better than when the old system was invented, there may be new avenues worth discussing for men of this generation and the next generations who want to successfully raise a kid in a loving 2-parent household minus the noose around their neck that very clearly does NOT improve their odds (and actively makes it harder to do things that WOULD improve their odds).

    These are nuances but they’re important nuances.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:40 pm
    Original Link

    Do you feel like that little field report you just had on your own time has negatively affected your kids?

    Do you feel like that field report Sentient just wrote has negatively affected his ability to be a father to his kids?

    You can do everything you’ve done, exactly how you’ve done it, minus agreeing to monogamy or signing a legal contract. You can be exactly the same involved father you are now, it’s entirely up to YOU to decide how much time/energy you put into side-poon but the point is that you have that option and aren’t risking half your shit and the long-term happiness of your life while making that decision.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 8:45 pm
    Original Link

    And if it comes down to “men who don’t sign a legal contract or promise monogamy will just abandon their kids and pop into the house once a month because they’re off banging all their side-poon and won’t be loving and caring or spend time with their family or wife and we’ll turn into a ghetto culture where every man has 6 baby mamas preggers and is avoiding raising any of the kids”, then that’s VERY close to just flat out saying “men need to be controlled/forced into “doing the right thing””

    And as disillusioned as I am right now with some of the FI-conditioning I’ve seen in this discussion so far, it would be incredibly sad to me if “men should enter contracts that force them to behave” was ANYONE’S view.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:18 pm
    Original Link

    “But commitment to the mother of your children is much more risky that PUA style nexting.”

    You can commit to the mother of your children without signing a legal contract or verbally promising it (just like you and Blaximus didn’t verbally promise it).

    Men don’t need to put a noose around their neck to “behave”. They can just CHOOSE to behave and we can teach them and guide them.

    If the belief is that men will all revert to ghetto culture if we give them too much freedom then, I mean, why not just call this the purple pill flat out, ’cause that’s the same argument the Prager U guy is making. “Men will be ambitionless if they don’t have a legal noose around their neck”, how about we just teach men to chase their ambition and give them tools for that and they CHOOSE to apply that to a relationship of their own accord and freedom?

    “You have the skills. Do you want to assume the risks?”

    Sure, for what benefit that I can’t get taking risks in other areas? What benefit do I get in 2016 from taking those risks when I could just have an LTR and children minus those risks?

    “Do you have the desire to raise children with the risk of doing that?”

    No, but one day I might desire to raise children without the risks of legal marriage. And many men, especially ones who’ve been burned by the system already or seen their friends/peers burned by it, don’t have an interest in taking those unnecessary risks but don’t realize there may be alternatives because no one is discussing them and even in a red pill forum the discussion is shut down and/or ridiculed.

    “Do you want to master new skills and move on when the time is right?”

    Why would I move on if I’ve found a unicorn and she doesn’t have the legal power to destroy my life? Why wouldn’t I just stay with her and raise kids with her, minus the risks/noose?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:44 pm
    Original Link

    Another way to put the fathering thing:

    Say you were to fuck one of your bottle models. Every time you go do these events, during downtime in them where you’re just managing the girls, say you got a blowjob from one one of them. Each time you went to do an event, during it you got some head.

    In what way would that affect your daughter or your ability to be a good strong father who imparts red pill wisdom into your kids? Are you going to purposely knock that bottle model up? Are you going to bring her around your kids, are you going to stay with her and abandon your family for a week to fuck her?

    Of course not. Like, that argument that it would affect your ability to be a good father to your children doesn’t hold up.

    Now a guy who’s out slaying poon every night avoiding coming home and abandoning his kids, ya, that guy’s fucking up, but men aren’t going to do that by default any more than you would. Men should have the freedom to make their own decision, by not entering a noose.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:49 pm
    Original Link

    “If you were to remove the ” ghetto ” connotation from the example I gave a few pages back, what you would uncover is a real, perfect field test of widespread, non-monogamous, marriage absent behavior fostered in isolation over at least 3 decades.”

    No, what you’d uncover is a perfect field test of what happens when we don’t give guys a PLAN and TEACH THEM how to do that in a productive way. What you have is men with zero guidance and no structured plan.

    Your argument is exactly the same as saying “what do we see when guys with no red pill training approach girls? They fuck up and bomb hard and get raped. So teaching them structured PUA game and red pill knowledge won’t change that.”

    Or the same as equating guys who try to start a business with no training and bombing as representative of guys who take business courses and have mentors and guidance to properly build and run a business.

    Or equating guys who randomly play strings on a guitar with guys who take training and learn how to play with structure and learn the rules etc

    That doesn’t make sense. It’s false equivalence. I’m talking about giving men education and guidelines and a plan of action.

    “This is what I have witnessed in the field. I have no desire to join in.”

    No one is asking you to, just like no one is asking you to join in the AFC approaching badly or guys starting businesses with no training or structure. We’re looking to create a better field, with men given the tools to succeed instead of fail, just like teaching them red pill or business or play the guitar or anything else.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:51 pm
    Original Link

    Because if you’re saying that men NEED to get legally contracted into marriage to NOT be like the ghetto crowd, then you’re implying that men need to be controlled and have chains on them to act properly. Like they aren’t inherently capable of “doing the right thing” by their own decision.

    Do you see how that’s the same argument as the Prager U guy is making in that video, about how a man who has a legal noose will HAVE to have more ambition to avoid getting raped/jailed?

    And do you understand how that’s FI-based thinking? That men have to be forced to do things because they won’t voluntarily choose to?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:53 pm
    Original Link

    “when they exit the PUA lifestyle they often make less than optimal choices”

    Because no one has a guide for AFTER the lifestyle, just like no one can tell Sun Wukong or Softek or Scribblerg how to have kids again without signing the legal noose. That’s my point. The only guide is a very broken system of marriage that’s stacked against them and doesn’t mean fuck all to the modern girls they’re trying to settle with.

    That’s why I’m surprised ANYONE is against this.

    “This makes no sense to me, he could have married a 9 and had his own kids.”

    He also could have just dated, LTRed, and voluntarily been monogamous to a 9 and had his own kids, without a legal marriage contract.

    “Three years later he’s married with a woman who has two kids from a previous marriage. Makes no sense, he’s rich and can score 10s easily.”

    He could score that 10 and just not legally tie his rich assets to her staying happy for 40+ years.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 9:56 pm
    Original Link

    “Lol. See field test above.”

    Then is it your belief that if Rollo got a blowjob from a bottle model while he was running an event, Sentient fucked a stripper on his business trip, and you fucked your houseguest, you would all become like the ghetto culture and abandon your families?

    I don’t think so, so your ghetto analogy has no relevance. That shit is an entirely different problem, which Anonymous Reader alluded to (sarcastically) before about the type of guys in the ghetto and their mindsets and income and training VS the average guy like Softek or Scribblerg or Andy or Hank that we’re talking about.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:12 pm
    Original Link

    “I did say that the attitude of avoiding legality combined with reckless disregard for the actual, real, long term effects is having detrimental results long term. Observable detrimental effects.”

    Right. That’s why I want to remove the reckless disregard part and help build a structural framework that men can use instead of “winging it” which leads to the ghetto culture.

    “If we say people fucked up marriage by their actions/FI/media influence, what makes a structured plan of non monogamous immune to the same so called perversion?”

    It’s not immune, but it has significantly less risk for the man for the exact same rewards. He can be a shitty father under a legal contract too. The point is teach them to be good fathers and self improve etc AND not sign a legal contract for no benefit he can’t get without it.

    “Men are men. Most react the same if put in the same environment over a long period of time.”

    Then do you agree that if Rollo was banging bottle models at his events, he would become a bad father that abandons his kids and become like the men in the ghetto?

    Or that if you banged this guest of yours, and had a fuckbuddy you banged on business trips, you would abandon your children? Would you just walk out on them because “men are men”?

    Because I think higher of Rollo and you than that. Why do you guys think other men given the same knowledge and training and influence and guidance you have, but who just don’t write their name on a piece of paper, would become like the ghetto crew when you wouldn’t?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:17 pm
    Original Link

    @Rollo @Blaximus @Sentient
    “She says come on. I say go ahead maybe I will meet you.”

    If Sentient had gone with her and went back to his hotel room (I assume he’s travelling, only skimmed the FR) with her instead of alone, in what way would that at ALL affect his ability to be a good father to his kids?

    In what way would that affect his stable loving 2-parent household? Do you think so little of him that he would just rawdog her and get her pregnant then abandon his family for her so he should be restrained from it with a legal contract threatening loss of assets and freedom (jail) because if he doesn’t have that, he’ll become like the ghetto crowd and abandon his family for this girl?

    Or, is Sentient, a red pill aware man who’s experienced abundance and had good guidance etc, capable of learning self-control? Just like any other man would be if he was given a structured plan to follow instead of “winging it” chasing his “id”?

    Because if the argument Rollo brought up is that this will affect the kids, then in what objective way would Sentient’s kids be affected if he was holding a stripper on his lap instead of a slice of pizza (presuming he’s in a hotel room on business)?

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:27 pm
    Original Link

    “You are slowly getting there… you realize that youcan have everything you want WITH marriage? Because it is also always about you.”

    Along with a shitload of risks to your finances and future. So why not just NOT legally sign up for those risks and have the same thing?

    “It’s THE LONG PERIOD OF TIME that’s escaping you.”

    The long period of time of men with no guidance. Do you think they were TAUGHT to abandon their kids and rawdog a bunch of randoms? Do you see a difference between that and teaching them how to stay with their kids and NOT rawdog the randoms?

    Again there is a difference between a band who’s picking up instruments and randomly playing VS a band who’s been taught by music instructors. There is no reason to think that John Mayer is going to suddenly choose not to play the guitar well just because people with no training or guidance play badly.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:29 pm
    Original Link

    And even then, so ARE you agreeing that men need to be controlled and threatened with loss of assets etc to avoid becoming like the ghetto dudes on a long timeline?

    Like, do you see how that’s recommending that men have LESS freedom and be restricted “for their own good” and how that’s the exact same reasoning the FI uses in that Prager U video? “You don’t know what’s best for you and you’re incapable of making good decisions on a long enough timeline, so do what we say and embrace the thread of massive negative consequences so that you’re forced to do the right thing”?

    That’s treating men like children or women.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:38 pm
    Original Link

    @Sun Wukong
    “OR… you could have it without the legal risk.”

    I just don’t understand how “you can have a cup of coffee, or you can have the same cup of coffee with a 50% chance of being punched in the face” are equivalent to them lol This seems like such a simple thing, I legitimately don’t understand how that simple obvious choice is being argued against.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:39 pm
    Original Link

    “I thought you could work out that if you WANT a capital W i f e you HAVE to get married…. ? please tell me I am not wrong. And the difference between benefits and value?”

    I can call any girl at the bar my wife if I want. It’s just a label.

    Benefits: things you get that improve your life that you couldn’t get without the thing you have to do to get them.

    Value: no one is saying women/LTRs/parenting/etc doesn’t have value. Just that getting that value doesn’t require legal marriage or promising monogamy.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 10:51 pm
    Original Link

    @Sun Wukong
    “I think what we’re looking for is how to have something the individual male chooses to shit on that social structure and the shit show that traditional marriage has become. Something without one-sided legal risk but also without the abandonment of children by fathers for guys that want their kids to succeed.

    Society won’t provide us with laws to do it, so we need a structure for clued up men that SHOULD be reproducing to choose.”

    This. It goes without saying that I’m talking about a red pill guide to this, for the men who seek the red pill (and probably winning over some blue pill people who are finding marriages failing all around them (unless they’re in that UMC religious percent)). Like my buddies who are out playing the field having fun with pickup but want to settle and have kids soon. Or guys who come to Rollo for help after being burned in their marriage etc and don’t want to enter that flawed system again.

    The ghetto culture has no guidance. Rollo is not going to become them if he gets a blowjob, nor is his son if he gets a blowjob, nor is his son’s son.

    The reality is the current marriage system is CREATING fatherless homes now. We need a new plan. And red pill communities are the only ones with enough of a grasp on these dynamics to figure one out, just like Trent Lane, Anonymous Reader, and I were discussing earlier that everyone just laughs at or ignores.

    “Because you refuse to see that coffee is not brown liquid. And John Mayer is not merely a guy with musical training.”

    Okay what are the benefits in 2016 for a guy to get married to a 2016 girl in 2016 culture that he can’t get without legal marriage or promising monogamy?

    “but Wife is not just a label if you actually VALUE what Wife is. Wife is not equal to female.”

    Right. And women today don’t value what a “Wife” is, like they did in Blaximus’ time. That’s our point.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 11:23 pm
    Original Link

    “Remove ghet… oh, never mind.”

    Before marriage was turned into a legal contract, were we all running around like the “men will be men” disaster you envision? Did kfg’s great grandparents turn into that culture, or did they stay together even without signing a legal contract forcing them to and risking the man’s assets while the woman is influenced by society to bail and take them?

    Or did we do just fine and men were raised by their fathers and families stayed together just fine without state-sactioned legal threads dangling over their head? Because they had proper guidance.

    on September 12th, 2016 at 11:28 pm
    Original Link

    Again I’m not advocating for absentee fatherism and knocking a dozen girls up rawdogging it and neglecting your family.

    You can stay with the same girl and not touch another girl in your LIFE, without signing a legal contract or promising monogamy.

    If you think men are incapable of having self-restraint/willpower and will guaranteed revert to the ghetto style culture, then that’s implying that men need to be restrained and threatened and chained for their own good. Which is what the FI pushes and why they hate MGTOWS and the red pill and PUAs etc, because we’re proving that we can do just fine without following their rules, because we have structure and guidance from our red pill communities.

    Then we go enter a system that’s stacked against us because no one has an alternative long-term plan for having kids with less risks lol Seems silly and worth looking at.

    on September 13th, 2016 at 12:01 am
    Original Link

    And women were also similarly restrained.

    Women no long have restraints, and in fact have the opposite: encouragement and cash & prizes to bail.

    But you want men to stay restrained while women are not.

    That’s a lop-sided contract if I’ve ever heard of one.

    And what’s the FI’s goal? Maximum restraint on male sexuality with minimum restraint on female sexuality.

    on September 13th, 2016 at 12:06 am
    Original Link

    That’s sort of the point, that women have had social and legal restraints REMOVED from the legal contract of marriage, while men have not.

    The system is ALREADY BURNING DOWN lol It’s OVER. It’s ALREADY dead. There won’t BE a return to restraining women’s sexuality and socially/legally punishing them for bailing on their marriage vows, at least not in any of our lifetime.

    This was the whole point of my Monogamy is dead thing. With social media, men in her social circles, male workplace environments, etc women are only offering one-sided pLTRs: she keeps her options, the man gives his up.

    Marriage has become an extension of that. The man is restrained and punished by society and legally for bailing, the woman is not just not punished equally (and the man has no ability in his marriage to punish her, like forcing her to have sex or beating her with no one batting an eye), but REWARDED for bailing.

    You can’t SAVE that system. In the small UMC/religious areas, sure, it might still be managing to work, but how long will that last? How popular is religion and church now country-wide, compared to 50 years ago or 100 years ago?

    And even if that lasts, that’s not the 90% of men out there who will be entering a lop-sided contract with risks for no benefit they could get without it.

    Let’s get men out of the burning building and figure out a new system. The old system is ALREADY dead for the average man.

    on September 13th, 2016 at 1:28 am
    Original Link

    “@yareally, i posted a FR a couple pages back that I’d appreciate your comments on…hoping it doesn’t get lost in all the marriage bickering”

    lol ya no prob I’m still sick as fuck so plenty of free time right now. Read it earlier and meant to write some notes on it cause it was good shit.

    “Since this is like extended social circle game (it’s a private party but the first time I’m meeting these girls) it’s mostly small talk and I’m just trying to enter small BT spikes and innuendo when I can because you don’t have to “entertain” them nearly as much and it’s normal for them to talk to friends of friends.”

    Yup, good reminder for guys running social circle game. You can “do” a lot less…you have value just by BEING there, especially if you personally know the hosts. Same thing with private parties and high-end venues and shit…don’t need to overgame and odds are you’re all going to be there for a few hours so you don’t have to rush it (VS a chaotic nightclub where the second she leaves your sight you two might not see eachother again).

    “I say something super cocky but obviously joking and she rolls off of me while laughing. Couldn’t really tell if she was put-off or just lowering her own BT because of my cocky line so my friend and I also roll off and go mingle with other folks.”

    Just a shit-test to see if you’ll chase. The retrospect clue is her making eye-contact and pAImAI (walking/standing near you when she could have picked ANY other route/place and didn’t HAVE to pick that spot, even if she ignores you and pretends not to see you, etc), but ideally you just trust that it’s a shit-test and she’s not actually put off because internally you assume attraction (and that you can smooth it over later if she IS put off with some humbleness shit).

    Either way, whether you know she’s not put off or not when she rolls off, you just act AS IF she’s not, which is what you did by not chasing her or apologizing etc Again in a chaotic club you might have to chase and keep the interaction going, but at a house party you can just chill and DHV some more (so she can observe you DHV’ing, remember she has to OBSERVE your value that’s why it’s DEMONSTRATIONS of higher-value, not just HAVING higher-value (and those demonstrations can be second/third-hand like someone else talking you up)).

    “She’s super confused so I with mock outrage and am like “you’ve never played craps before?”. She says no kinda defending herself/qualifying.”

    Good. These are all little iois. She wouldn’t care if an ugly homeless man thought she wasn’t cool.

    “HB7 likes me. Is asking about my plans for tonight.”


    “now the HB6 from last weekend is texting me for the address of the party and ready to meet up.”


    “I try to time bridge about hanging out tomorrow afternoon with HB7 before HB6 shows up. I want to do this before because she’s not an absolute stunner/ice queen where I have to make her jealous and shit.”

    This is part of why I’m not a big fan of social circle game lol Juggling this kind of shit. Hard to say what the optimal call is either way…pursue the HB7 and diss the HB6 and the HB7 feels way over-valued ’cause you passed up another girl for her. Pursue the HB6 and risk the HB7 getting pissed and flaking. Secret third option: threesome! lol But ya, comes down to which path you feel like choosing really.

    “SB: “Hey it’s Stringerbell”
    HB7: Ay”

    lol at that text. “Ay” That’s how much effort they’ll put into txting some cool new guy they’ve met lol

    “I’m surrounded by tons of friends so I must seem to her as this amazingly social guy.”

    This is the plus side to social circle game lol a lot easier to DHV.

    You did everything solid with the HB6 so let’s jump to here:

    “HB6: “Nah I’m not going out home with you.” I don’t really react
    HB6: “Are you mad or like disappointed I’m not going home with you?””

    Note how she’s even flat out verbalizing that that was a shit-test to see how you’d react. She’s not REALLY not going to go home with you if you play things right, she’s just seeing how abundant you are, how outcome dependent you are, how much you assume attraction (do you bail or just keep having fun just assuming you’ll be going home together at some point), etc So when you don’t react at all she’s like “so are you any of these low-value things?” lol You’d be surprised how many guys fall into responding to this like “well, I just–” and get into a logical discussion with her about it and how much they like her and bla bla

    “SB: “Nah it’s fine. It’s your decision. Let’s go to another bar though” We start making out more on the street”

    Solid, don’t fall into her frame of engaging that logical discussion and just focus on giving her more emotions. And this shows her that it’s up to her, which means you probably have options and aren’t outcome dependent etc, all high-value subcomms in this.

    “HB6: Is it by your place?
    SB: “Yeah” We keep making out”

    She may have been saying it like “I’m onto your game” but she may also have been saying it like “I hope it’s by your place incase I miiiight change my mind”…you’d be the only one that knows cause you heard her actual tonality.

    Also you’re doing good baby-stepping here. A lot of guys will try to keep convincing her to go from the bar to their apartment, but you’re picking small compliance steps, out of the bar, down the street, to another bar that’s closer to my place, etc etc Much smoother than throwing the hail mary. That’s why you want to sort of plan out “okay there’s a food stand near my place, so I’ll hype that food stand’s food up early in the interaction to plant the seeds”, whereas normal guys will go where the girl wants to go for food or pick some place with high quality great food but that takes them further from their Sex Location.

    “HB6: I’m not really into PDA like on this random sidewalk
    SB: “No worries” We get into a cab and I just start making out with her inside their instead.”

    Does she have a boyfriend or anything? Either way some girls just aren’t into it (could be shy/insecure etc or just not into it for whatever reason, doesn’t matter). Getting her into isolation is perfect. It’s like Hank with his asian girl where she’s not comfortable with PDAs, so instead of trying to FIGHT that, just find a way to create isolation with her so she’s comfortable.

    “5 minutes later we get to a quiet bar. I go for deep comfort and rapport.”

    Good. You CLEARLY have Attraction, but the game is won in Comfort. So good calibration switching gears here after getting resistance to going to your place. You’re playing really solid game in general, like I can’t remember if I’ve read your Field Reports before but props to your game skills in general.

    “Ask her if she’s ever seen some famous monument from really high up. Tell her I have an amazing view of it from my apartment.”

    Perfect, now here’s where we get into the make-or-break meat of it lol This is where the little moves count.

    You did good by suggesting the view first, so you have a reason to go back to your place that isn’t blatantly sex. But she will, of course test you on it like she did because her ASD KNOWS it’s sex:

    “She tell me it’s only our first time hanging out. I tell her we don’t have to do anything she’s not comfortable with. She says she knows if she comes inside she won’t be able to stop herself. Says she needs to feel safe around a guy, but then adds she does feel really safe around me.”

    Now do you see how you entered her frame here? It’s very subtle but this is the same thing as before, where she said she’s not coming home with you, except this time you’re closer to the goal and probably more outcome dependent so this time you ENTER her frame and HAVE that logical discussion with her, with the comfortable with line. Then she responds with more logic and bla bla this is all logic not fun feels.

    And then note how that continues (because you’re tired/frustrated) to the rest of the interaction where you meet the same/increased resistence:

    “I’m getting a little bored/tired by the end so pull her outside to make out some more. She’s like I really want to kiss you, but I’m not into PDA. I give it one last try and say “Well my apartment’s right here if we want some privacy.” She says she can’t.”

    She WANTS to kiss you but isn’t into PDA? She’s been kissing you all night. She’s saying “find a way to isolate me that DOESN’T trigger my ASD”. But you’ve fallen into her frame at this point and are trying to logically convince her to agree to “be a slut”…she WANTS you to find a way around her ASD. My favorite analogy for ASD is it’s a prison guard and you’re trying to bust her out of jail, so it’s you AND her against her ASD, she WANTS to escape with you but if her ASD catches you two, she has to go back to the cell.

    Now a more solid play would have been pitch the back to your apartment for the view, then she says the “It’s only our first time hanging out” part, and imagine if instad you had used 1) reversing the frame combined with 2) a False Time Constraint, you would get something like: “woah just what do you think is going to happen lol I have to work in the morning I can’t stay up late, we’re just popping up to check out the view while I call you a cab, next time we can get up to more trouble but I can’t go to work exhausted and I think you would wear me out๐Ÿ˜‰ lol”

    See how much better that sounds? You’re taking her frame as if YOU’RE the one rejecting HER for sex, disarming her ASD by letting her lie to it and tell it “oh he has to work so I can’t stay overnight so it’s okay to go up it’s just for a few minutes and he’s going to call me a cab and I have to get in a cab ANYWAY so it’s okay to go up, can I please go out of my cell for a few minutes ASD, I’ll be right back I promise!!” and on top of it you’re avoiding a logical debate with the slight tease which causes an emotional spike because what guy rejects the GIRL for sex like that…and you’re showing outcome independence PLUS Future Projecting that you two are going to hang out again which is an SOI.

    Like a TON of little game concepts packed into that one reply. Compare something like that to what you ended up doing…can you see how that would change the dynamic and disarm her ASD compared to what you did? Then up in your apartment you just keep doing the same thing “we definitely shouldn’t do THIS” stuff until you’re having sex lol

    Also you DHV’ed so hardcore all night combined with the deep rapport that part of the resistance might have been that she sees you as potential boyfriend material so she doesn’t want to come off too easy/slutty, which is why the Future Projection part helps, it just ASSUMES a relationship of some sort…not necessarily BF/GF but it lets her know you’re not even THINKING of pump ‘n dumping her, you’re just ASSUMING you’ll hang out again and can bang the next time, which is reassuring if she’s feeling like you might be out of her league or wanting to see you more than once.

    “No “I got home safe” or anything from HB6.”

    I always tell them to txt me as they’re getting in the cab or leaving my place, “txt me when you get home so I know you made it”. Sometimes they don’t txt ’cause they fall asleep or forget or whatever, but it’s a romantic little thing that they all seem to appreciate (unless they were just looking for a one night stand themselves lol) and more importantly it gives me a chance if they DO txt to either make sure they have no Buyer’s Remorse if we fucked plus collect evidence that it was consensual lol (I’ll talk about how hot it was that they did such and such and get them to talk about what we just did and tuck them in)

    And if we haven’t fucked I can be the last person she txts before she passes out for the night since once she gets in the cab to go home she’s going to whip out her phone and catch up on all the txts she missed while she was with me (which who KNOWS what mood they’re going to put her in or what they’re going to say about me if they were there when I picked her up etc), so having that last little tuck-in conversation can help solidify things.

    “I might’ve pushed a little too hard at the end so I send HB6 a super platonic text the next day to smooth things over and not let her think I’m only in it for the sex.”

    Ya you did push a little hard but not beacuse she wasn’t UP for it necessarily, but because you weren’t quite calibrated/smooth enough at the end there. Like you kind of ran into resistance that you created, so the hard pushing was against your own handling of the situation, if that makes sense. The platonic stuff is good calibration, she’s indicating that she doesn’t want to come off like some pump ‘n dump. She may even have not txted you after the bar out of assuming you wouldn’t WANT to hear from her again because she didn’t put out (disqualifying herself from deserving you) if you came off TOO high-value to her, and then is super happy when you txt her the next day.

    “She responds with a long text and doesn’t show any signs of frustration so I don’t respond (hopefully leaving her chasing).”

    You should be alright with this one. She showed you the major roadblocks: find ways to get her isolated, and get around her ASD to get her to the Sex Location. Otherwise you should have no problem. You may not even get much if any ASD on the second date.

    “SB: I can’t believe you think Tiger Woods has only had sex with 165 people”

    Solid re-engagement. Call-back humor that reminds her who you are without saying “Hey, it’s stringerbell, we met at Joe’s party and talked about Tiger Woods” as if you’re worried she won’t know who you are. This just ASSUMES you have a connection/vibe and ASSUMES she’ll know who you are and spikes her emotions because it’s a sexual topic and teasing her etc. All good shit.

    “SB: I think you still won more rounds than men. When are you free this week for some drinks (and maybe some more drinking games)”

    I would have just said “When are you free this week” and not told her what we’re going to do (drinking = sex, sex = ASD, now you’re asking her “when can you come be a slutty whore?” which is risking ASD)

    Like someone else said, you can do the pencil offer thing which is classic DavidD “Which is better for you Tuesday or Wednesday?” but I’m finding these days girls have SO MUCH SHIT GOING ON every fucking day of the week because they’re SO connected through social media to everyone and there’s ALWAYS something happening (VS the old days where they had to phone eachother and she wouldn’t get an invite from some obscure person she barely knows it would mostly be her close friends) that the response is often “Actually I can’t this week” which feels like a rejection to both of us and is kind of setting up a pattern of her rejecting me. So I prefer the open-ended “When are you free this week” and seeing what she says…if she’s busy does she MAKE time for me, or does she offer an alternative etc

    “HB7: True. So this week is super busy for me. As of now I have something planned every night this week but could let ya know is something falls through?”

    This kind of thing is getting pretty common. None of these are important plans, she could cancel them, but unless you made a fucking KILLER impression on her, she’s likely not going to flake on them for you because she KNOWS (because she has 900 guys on Tinder chasing her) that you’ll still chase her next week and the week after etc

    It’s important to understand that she probably doesn’t KNOW she’s going to flake on you a bunch in the future. She really DOES like you and THINK she’s going to meet up with you, and did in the original moment. She doesn’t KNOW her feels are going to die down and that she’s going to start losing attraction for you over time as that memory of first meeting you gets clouded with all the new stimulus she’s receiving all week. Like, it’s not malicious.

    The sarcasm would’ve definitely come off butthurt and tanked it. She just doesn’t need to take a chance on you actually being like that when she has a million other options now and txt is hard to get sarcasm across. She’s HAD guys actually say that to her and actually BE pissed off at her, ya know?

    “I went with “We can wait till next week but in the meantime please some research on celebrity sex lives so you can improve your [drinking game] skills.”

    You handled it perfect, by nuking the offer entirely. It probably surprised her and she probably doesn’t know HOW to respond because that doesn’t happen lol She may be showing it to her friends tomorrow asking wtf do I respond lol But either way they don’t have the same “reply to every txt like a polite conversationalist” mentality that men tend to have, girls live in the moment and have so many conversations going that they just stop txting in the middle of them because new stimulus has come up and often think it’s WEIRD if a guy EXPECTS them to be like “okay well I have to go do this, bye for now!” Like that’s too formal lol But it’s weird to US. What you did though falls under basic cat-string theory: “Do you want this string?” “Maaaaybe…” “Ok don’t worry about it, NO STRING FOR YOU” “No wait!!!!” lol

    The problem of course, is that 10+ years ago you could just not txt her all week and she’d be bored out of her mind sitting at home watching re-runs on TV regretting not accepting your offer so that she’s excited when you txt her next week offering again.

    But in 2016 she’s going to get a shit-ton of stimulus thrown at her all week long to the point where she doesn’t even REMEMBER that you two could’ve hung out, because she has no down-time where she isn’t being given stimulus and feels from other people and/or technology (or other people VIA technology).

    Plus in the old days she’d be sitting at home txting you but now she could be fucking DRIVING in the middle of txting you lol or at some other guy’s place or a million other distracting things, because smartphones are so fast and easy to whip out txts on, so don’t really read into the delays or anything, just assume you haven’t fucked up.

    Honestly I think the whole “wait 2 hours and read into how fast she txts you” stuff from the community should be thrown out now, with how txting has evolved. It’s like email now, in the old days people looked forward to email and had conversations and stuff. Now I’ll just fire an email off to a buddy and I know he’s probably not even going to see it for a few days let alone respond till who knows when he gets around to it. Zero fucks given. That’s similar to what txting is becoming for girls. So don’t worry about that stuff, she just has a ton of other stimulus going on.

    “Would love some thoughts on what to send her instead of my last text.”

    I think you played it just fine. I would go ghost all week and ping her next week. But understand she’s going to forget about a lot of your value by then probably so expect to be starting over in A1. In the old days you could txt her all week and build Comfort, but now that’ll often get you put in the horde with the Orbiter Chodes all trying to do the same thing: give her your attention/value without getting value back (her in front of you face to face in person).

    This is also why I proooobably would have rode it out with her and let the HB6 get mad at me and then hoped I had enough value with the HB6 to smooth it over lol Because with the HB7 at the party I’d be thinking “if I don’t fuck her tonight, this number will probably end up being wood”.

    Being part of the same social circle might help her not be as flakey, like she may be more inclined to respond to your ping next week because you know people she knows and it could get awkward if you think she’s lame etc (VS a girl you have zero ties to) But hard to say. Either way I’d ping next week but don’t bank on ever seeing her again lol She might be the type like Scray is saying where you have to just ping her every now and then and try to get her out (or ping her till the next social circle gathering).

    Hope that helps, solid game on your end all around though. Just gotta focus on that end-game.

    @Hank Holiday
    Glad to see you back to enthusiastic with some new shit to try infield lol Don’t give up on the asian chick, in the PAST, like 5-10 years ago she would have absolutely txted you, you ran excellent game on her. Like that FR back in the 2005-2010 days would’ve gotten you rounds of applause lol But shit has changed with the txting now so don’t stress it. Don’t contact her again for a bit if she hasn’t responded to the voicemail…ping her in a couple weeks or whatever. It’s not DEAD, they’re just living in the moment a lot of the time now and the phone is a buffer for them to hide behind so don’t really even view it as a reflection of your game. Just a frustrating reminder that all we can do is heavily increase the odds, not guarantee a win, and pushing for the Same Day/Night Lay and not getting it can sometimes be more satisfying than trying for the Day2 and getting a flake lol (not that you could’ve necessarily SDL’ed her, I think you calibrated solid to her shyness etc, just saying in general this is why Scray is like “JUST FUCK THEM NOW” lol)

    And I figured Julien’s “What would you do IF” or “Would you rather” stuff would be along your self-amusement lines. You can see how that stuff would be WILDLY uncalibrated and weird if certain guys did it or a guy who wasn’t amused by it did it, VS a guy like Julien or yourself or myself where it’s funny to us. PIMP should be a good watch for you.

    Remember that stuff is more polarizing so you’ll ALSO have to be able to calibrate if you piss her off or offend her (or someone else listening) and smooth things over.

    So don’t be totally socially retarded lol You sound like you have fine calibration so it shouldn’t be a problem, but just be aware of what the people around you are feeling and their subcomms and cut threads or change subjects or flat out apologize if you cross some lines. As Julien shows in that clip even if if you fuck up and cross a line or piss her off, you CAN often still recover if you’re on the ball.

    on September 13th, 2016 at 2:02 am
    Original Link

    “Question for Rollo and Ya – even if you are inclined to take good care of your kids, isn’t it ultimately better to keep yourself as your first priority?”

    If you’re NOT one of the UMC upper class who can manage to make marriage work, then your happiness is tanking according to Scribblerg’s data and the deadbedroom guys and MMSL guys etc then is it REALLY a great influence for your kid to see you miserable, your wife nagging you, she’s fat and you’re not attracted anymore and you’re frustrated because you haven’t had sex in months and have no other options available, and the ONLY reason you’re still there is because of the kid and the legal contract looming over your head etc etc

    How bad of an influence is seeing you choosing to stay with your “wife” out of pure choice, with her, since she feels dread, keeping herself healthy and in-shape etc to keep you from leaving, so that she feels better and you feel more desire for her and even though you COULD leave at any point and only risk child support (if you didn’t collect evidence that you would be a better parent to win a custody dispute like you were supposed to lol), but you still choose NOT to leave her because you love her and your kids and your family life together.

    I dunno, seems to me that wouldn’t be very damaging, the kid is still seeing plenty of love compared to a lot of shitty marriages staying together out of obligation/risk of financial ruin and jail/etc on the man’s side and a lot of divorces where the wife destroys her ex-husbands life/happiness. Especially if you followed the entire life plan Trent Lane and Anonymous Reader and I were discussing and learned game early on in life so you could experience an abundance of poon till you get tired of other pussy like Blaximus is now, so that you aren’t retardedly falling in love with strippers on business trips because you’re 25 and didn’t learn game and have only banged a couple girls in your life lol

    “At the very least, if your wife / baby momma detects you would do anything for your kids, I think you are almost as screwed as you have One-itis for the wife / baby momma herself, as she can weaponize the kids if she is less scrupulous.”

    This is why I say in the plan that this is the one point where she WILL have leverage. You can avoid the leverage she’d get from being engaged, or from being married, or monogamy etc, but when you have a kid (which is the point of this), she has leverage. That’s why I say why stack all this OTHER leverage for her on TOP of it…strip all that VOLUNTARY leverage (for no benefit) away and focus on dealing with the one leverage point you CAN’T avoid (because again this is for guys who WANT kids and WANT to settle down and raise a family but with less risk, not the ghetto dudes randomly knocking girls up because they’re too dumb to use protection and avoiding responsibility or wanting to raise the kids).

    “At the worst level it could devolve to the thing described in the article, where the woman divorces and is essentially using the ex as a free babysitter; or in fact, a babysitter which pays her (alimony / child support? Likely)… While she enjoys her career, carousel, and her new husband.”

    This is becoming more and more common. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if this is actually being recommended as a strategy these days…like, we’re seeing the inklings of this with the Sugar Daddy, Webcam Girl, Patreon, etc systems picking up steam: girls are racking up a shitload of debt in school and deciding they need someone (or multiple people) to pay that debt off. In the past they’d have to go be strippers to make fast easy money lol But now they can get a $10 webcam and a Chaturbate account and start earning money safely, they can even just not show their faces on cam if they want. They can do YouTube videos, they can discreetly have Sugar Daddies that they only have to actually see once a year when they get flown to Italy for a weekend, they can milk Tinder guys for free dates and favors etc etc

    How long till they figure out “you know what, there’s no real consequence for getting divorced, I can do it whenever I want for any reason, and these rich providery guys keep begging me to marry them…why not just get married and have a big fun party, have him pay off my debt, and then when I’m tired of it bail with free income? I can just make excuses not to have sex or take birth control to avoid getting pregnant and “save it” for my REAL husband in the future”

    It’s it incredibly sociopathic? Sure. But so is the War Brides shit. At the end of the day her biology is ruling her decisions and will hamster rationalize pretty much ANYTHING she does, no matter how shitty, as justified.

    Do I think this is widespread 100% guaranteed to happen and is happening now to everyone and everyone who gets married is going to be a victim of this?

    No. But I know I’ve seen girls do some pretty fucked up shit with zero remorse (because they hamster rationalized their actions) when they have to (and sometimes when they DON’T have to).

    Either way, Open Hypergamy and the promotion of Open Cuckoldry and no social judgement and the insane levels of thirst in men and how many can offer her providership so easily via technology etc is going to make this kind of strategy not THAT unlikely to start spreading. How do you lure a guy who’s locked in his room with his sexbot? Offer him the marriage dream, THAT might get him out of there…even if you don’t have any intention of keeping YOUR side of the bargain. You can always hamster rationalize it as doing what you had to do as a strong independent womyn being oppressed by the patriarchy.

    Sure, no one would do that to someone they value…but if you view men who aren’t that top 10% as just worthless garbage, who’s feelings don’t matter because they’re so thirsty they take any abuse and chase you no matter what, where you can just tweet out “I’m so hungry I wish I had pizza” and 4 guys will send pizza to your door bought and paid for for a Like on their tweet……well, how much do you really fret over stepping on ants?

    Now THAT’S negative talk lol Makes the marriage/monogamy stuff seem like a light-hearted romp of a discussion, doesn’t it? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    “What bothers me is that she feels the need to re-frame that as it making her a better mom.”

    Of course, because if she didn’t hamster rationalize it (War Brides mechanic applied to another area), she would have to acknolwedge to herself that she’s a shitty person.

    “I don’t know, but I suspect having the divorce and such actually does NOT make it better for her kids, which by definition means she is not a better mom.”

    Of course not lol But her girlfriends and the FI won’t tell her that.

    “While I believe being a selfish father is the best option for the father, I still imagine it would be in a context of a marriage or pLTR where he is around almost full time and there isn’t a split home.”

    Of course. A guy like myself or Tyler might try some more extreme routes, but for the average Joe the Plumber 90% guy who’s getting raped in marriage right now, his “pLTR” with non-promised monogamy and no legal contract signed, would look EXACTLY like all these old guys’ marriages look. Love, commitment, stability, 2-parent household, fully involved father, etc None of that requires a legal contract or promising monogamy. A pLTR doesn’t have to mean you have a harem of 10 girls passing through your bachelor pad you spend all week at while your kid grows up disillusioned lol It just means that a guy like Sentient, when he’s on his business trip, can fuck another girl using protection and his red pill/game understanding to keep it as just a fling, and not stress that it’ll cause the end of the world.

    “And I feel no need to re-frame that this is in the best interest of the kids or making him a better father. It is in the best interest of the man, and that is reason enough.”

    Everything I’ve been bringing up has been prioritizing bringing up a healthy kid and being an involved father. That’s the goal.

    It’s just that no one has brought to the table an objective reason why Sentient banging a girl on a business trip or Rollo getting a blowjob from one of his bottle models when he’s away from home working an event, would have any actual effect on the kids or Sentient and Rollo’s ability to be an involved good father that raises them well.